Q. Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?
A. When we “pray to Mary” we are merely asking Mary and/or the Saints to pray for us in exactly the same way as when we ask another Christian to pray for us. This is nothing more than asking for intercessory prayer. And just like most Christians ,when we are in need of prayer we ask those we consider to be closest to God. If I need prayer for healing for my mom with cancer I will not ask the drug dealer on the corner or even a nominal Christian to pray for me. Instead, I ask the holiest Christians I know. After all, James 5:16 says, “the fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful”.
Misunderstanding arises between Protestants and Catholics because of our use of the phrase “pray to Mary” or “pray to St. Francis” etc. For Protestants, with a shorter history, prayer is only and always directed to God. However, for Catholics the older uses of the English “pray” have endured through the centuries. In medieval English it was common to use the word “pray” as a synonym for “ask”. I pray thee, good king, give me …. Plus, as usual in human speech this phraseology has endured because it is short and sweet. It is easier to say, I will pray to Mary than to say, I will ask Mary to pray to God for me. While the second sentence is more theologically accurate it is also more than twice as long. So, no one uses it in everyday speech.
Despite this colloquialism, the prayers of the Church are theologically correct. For instance, in the Hail Mary we say, “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” and in the I Confess we say, “And I ask blessed Mary, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.”
Another difference between Protestants and Catholics is how we view those Christians who have died. Protestants remember them and miss them but once they are dead they are beyond this world and our prayers. And although Protestants certainly believe in the Body of Christ they tend to think of this consisting of living Christians only. Dead Christians are either in Heaven or Hell and no longer connected or affected or interested in events in this world.
But ,for Catholics, all Christians both the living and the “dead” are a part of the Body of Christ. We remain connected to each other. We continue to love, care and pray for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Therefore, intercessory prayer continues through the power of God, among the members of the Body of Christ, because we are all alive.
Filed under: Mary, Prayer to Saints |
Bread From Heaven 
How do we get to Heaven?
Check John 3:3
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
And as Jesus explains in the rest of the chapter we are born again in Baptism.
Dear Carol,
Please click to see my response How Do We Get to Heaven?
There is one mediator between God and Man and that is the man Christ Jesus. Is there any place in the bible where it says it is correct to pray to Mary and the saints that are in heaven? I know what the word “One” means with no exception. No other comment should try to expand the Word.
Amen to that, it is STATED clearly in the bible many times, that we shall not pray THru or TO any other forms/spirit/power other than Jesus himself, and this praying through Mary and angels is exactly admitting that very simple fact. Furthermore, we do not have exact proofs of dead people before us, if they are in slumber or risen to heaven, for it is said that all shall await judgement, even if those few men that the bible have stated God have brought them up to heaven, do you think we can pray THRU them or to them? NO, the bible and God clearly stated not.
I hereby pray to every catholic or christian who are still ignorant, to further research on your own to find out the Truth.
The Truth shall set you free.
Jimmy,
You said:
it is STATED clearly in the bible many times, that we shall not pray THru or TO any other forms/spirit/power other than Jesus himself,
Where does it say that clearly and many times? Please show us your many verses
When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!
We can ask others down here to pray for us and with us, to pray in agreement with us, but we are not to pray direct to any human down here for them to actually answer any of our specific prayers.
So if it would be ridiculous for us to pray to someone else down here on this earth to actually answer any of our specific prayers, then it only stands to reason that it would be just as ridiculous to pray direct to a dead saint up in heaven to answer any of our specific prayers.
The other question some people have on this is if they can pray and ask a dead saint to pray direct to God for them as an actual intercessor. Again, even doing this is still an attempt to try and communicate with this dead saint, and as such, I do not believe God wants us doing this. There are enough people down here on this earth that we can ask to pray for us and with us without having to go direct to dead saints who are living up in heaven.
King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.
Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!
Even though some people are not consulting mediums when they are trying to pray to dead saints, I believe they are still trying to communicate directly with them through their direct prayer efforts and they are thus violating a basic, direct commandment from the Lord on this issue.
I do not know if this will help your friend or if she will agree with any part of this, but those are my thoughts on this issue and what I feel God is trying to tell us through His Word on this subject.
One characteristic which only God possesses is omni presence. This means that He is everywhere and sees everything that is why He is able to hear the prayer of billions of people at the same time. Do the saints and angels also possess this unique characteristic? I don’t think so. Let us not be in a haste to conclude on this issue because it is an important one. Let us carefully research again. This could help many souls. Let God give us wisdom.
Yes, God is omnipresent and He alone gives permission and accords this ability to “hear the prayer of billions of people at the same time” to saints and angels as He wills. Protestants have a habit of putting God in a box and then limiting His omnipotence to a creature’s physical world of experience of finite time and space here. It’s the Catholics who have a healthy respect for God’s sovereignty, rule and control over everything, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. There’s always a mystery that’s beyond our pale of understanding on this side of heaven. Let’s just let God be God.
JIMMY
Where does it say in Scripture that we are not to ask Christians in Heaven to pray for us? Your opinion is interesting but it does not have the authority of Scripture.
We do not believe that our prayers are answered by the Saints. They merely intercede for us with God. GOD ANSWERS OUR PRAYERS. For example:
Hail Mary….PRAY FOR us sinners
Catholics often will say “I prayed to Mary and my prayer was answered. 0r…she answered my prayer.” This sounds like we think Mary answered our prayers but what we actually mean is that Mary’s intercession was effective. If Catholic think that the Saints, by themselves have the power to anwer prayer then they are misinformed. That is NOT WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES.
Asking the Saints to pray for us is NOT forbidden in Scripture. Necromancy is a form of divination–seeking occult knowledge from the spiritual world. Asking for prayer is NOT anything like Necromancy or any sort of divination. Demons are contacted in necromancy. Saints are merely requested to join their prayers to ours.
This has been the Practice of Christians for 1500 years before the reformation and it got rejected along the way. It is not forbidden so I am sorry your opinion is just not authortative for me.
Firstly, before further comments, can i know which denomination you partake in? Sorry, respect is always permitted. God Bless You
bfhu posted: “Asking the Saints to pray for us is NOT forbidden in Scripture.”
Please show where praying to the Saints is authorized in the Scripture?
Where in Scripture does it say that all Christian beliefs must be authorized in Scripture?
“Where in Scripture does it say that all Christian beliefs must be authorized in Scripture?” A common question that Catholics like to quote. Well where in scripture does in say that all Christian beliefs doesn’t have to be authorized in scripture?
The point is that since Scripture NO WHERE demands that all beliefs must come from Scripture then Sola Scriptura is NOT even Scriptural.
Honestly, this is a form of idolatry, the bible cleary states 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus….Prayer should be offered only to God, and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints. In REVELATIONS 19:10 John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing….The only pray to abide by is found in.
KING JAMES VERSION.
MATTHEW 6:5-13
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as…the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when yes pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not yes therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things yes have need of, before yes ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
NEW LIVING TRANSLATION.
MATTHEW 6:5-13
5 “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.
6 But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.
7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!
9 Pray like this:
Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done on earth,
as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today the food we need,[a].
12 and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,[b].
but rescue us from the evil one.[c].
THIS IS THE ONLY WAY. ALL OTHERS PRAYERS ARE THE WORKS OF FALSE PROPHETS.
We do not worship the Saints. “Prayer to the Saints” is merely asking them to pray for us, just like any other member of the Body of Christ (friends & relatives)whom we ask to pray for us.
I just wanted to ask if anyone has tried to think if possible from gods point of view? – If we pray to god or to a saint God hears our prayers. From my simple point of view i believe that if we pray than surely that is good. If we all share our belief in God the father god the son and God the holy spirit and share our christian beliefs then we should be full of Joy that we share what we share. we should not be trying to put down anyone but try to lift our fellow humans up.
Here’s God’s opinion in a simple summary:
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ezekiel 5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.
Diaspora.. for the jews
Damnation for Catholics.
God’s point of view IS THE BIBLE: He scattered the jews for 2600y for the queen of heaven…the corrupt priesthood and traditions of men..
Isaiah
48:11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Jeremiah 7
8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord.
12 But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
14 Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the /-queen of heaven-/, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
Being a former catholic prayer to saints are not going to the Father. Prayers can be answered through another realm that is not of God. The saints are dead. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also.” ( John 14:6-7)
Dear Ronnie,
It is true that there is a spiritual reality of the dark variety. But just becasue you used to be Catholic does not make you able to authoritatively say that, “prayer to saints are not going to the Father.”
Who says?
And the Saints are NOT dead. Their bodies are dead but their souls are alive. Jesus even said:
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
Jimmy, why are they so adamant about regarding Mary to be our intercessor? Where are they getting their understanding and interpretation of and about the scripture? I don’t understand any of their explanation. When I was growing up I was being raised into their so called Catholic faith. I have replied back about who taught us to pray and what to pray and to whom we pray to. I just feel aggravated but even Jesus taught us to forgive for they do not know what they say or do. I am with you in any comments you give because we both have the same belief and understanding.
Dan,
The answer is , in a nutshell, not to attack or put it badly:
Religions are called religions, and mankind upon believing in it will follow the rules and traditions set forth by it. Understanding the scripture, and how to interpret it, and communicating with God as he show us the truth, is the only way.
Unfortunately, Catholics not only read and listen to the bible ONLY, they also believe in following the rules and instructions set by the Pope, the Catholic Church (main organization) and also from claimed apostles and saints whom words may not be found in the Bible.
This, however, creates chances for more misunderstanding, more confusion for the believers because when you are not following the Bible and it (god’s word) alone, the things you hear and learn shall never be constant.
And that is the greatest fear, of any Catholic believer, especially if they are young in spiritual faith. And exposed to the many ‘revered’ statues and idols of saints, angels and Mary herself, young Catholics grow up with a heart after the things they see, respect and revere. Surely they know that Jesus is the key, but ‘subtle programming’ such as looking at the graceful statues of Mary, and of so many other idols and such, will influence the way a man thinks , does it not?
Thus you have Catholics on two sides – the ones who truly know and rely on God himself and his Son Jesus ( but occasionally turn towards Mary and saints to pray on their behalf) and the other side of the Catholics who always seek angels and Mary, as well as the saints to pray/intercede on their behalf. We all know(logically and intrinsically) that if one is to always do this, how can one be closer to the FAther?
Just take for example, you in your physical form, always ASK your sister (whom you think is closer to your dad) to talk to him, instead of asking him directly. How do you think after a long time, your father will feel?
AMEN BROTHER JIMMY AMEN
You PRAY to every Catholic…?
i think u missed the point. lol youll get it
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
There is not enough room to further explain the above matter but one thing I have in mind:
Why are you non-catholics really interested in proving which way of praying is right or wrong. All that is important is your HEART your INTENTION your true WILL. God will hear you if you have good intentions. I think the Catholic church does not oblige their people to pray the Hail Mary all the time either. They simply suggest a humble request to Mary to pray for them the same way as Non-Catholics ask their fellow men to pray for them together. It is not you or your church who can decide which prayer is right or wrong. After all it is just the way of doing things – meaning different ways same purpose, that is asking God to help you in your life. History recorded the apparition of Mary occurred in May 1917 giving the three little children important messages and visions. Believe or not it is your decision. But neither you nor your church, again, has any right to prove it wrong/right. It is someone else’s belief so it is personal to them.
@ Dennis Binder,
First you need to get to know the English language and it’s history. Let’s look at the phrase: PRAY TELL for example. This was used in older spoken English but then Bugs Bunny said it too HEHE! I’ve found the definition to the phrase, look it up if you don’t believe me:
pray tell:
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Contents
[hide] 1 English 1.1 Etymology
1.2 Interjection 1.2.1 Synonyms
1.2.2 Usage notes
[edit] English
[edit] Etymology
From pray (“ask (politely)”) + tell (“explain”)
[edit] Interjection
pray tell
1.(archaic) Please explain (something the requestor does not yet understand). Pray tell us, how will they fare while you are away?
2.(idiomatic, usually sarcastic) Expressing incredulity, please explain (some claim or position the speaker doubts). But how, pray tell, do you “notice” something that happens when you’re asleep?
[edit] Synonyms
do tell
[edit] Usage notes
When “pray” was used to emphasize requests, this standard construction (as, “pray come here”, “pray help us”, “pray leave me”) was an earnest request for information. The phrase is now, however, usually used ironically to emphasize the unacceptability of something, especially when highlighting a logical fallacy.
So you see the word PRAY does’nt always mean to give worship. Just take the word LOVE for example, I love my sister and I love my girlfriend. Using the formula of sola scriptura what does this make me? An incestuous bigamist doesn’t it so let’s not take the Bible without deep understanding and wisdom.
Please remember that The Catholic Church is +2000 years old and still uses ancient phrases which are not used today. take for example the last line in the theme song from the cartoon series “The Flintsones” made in the late 60’s. It goes: “We’ll have a gay old time”. The word Gay means something totaly different today does’nt it. Aside from that, one should research a word first before trying to state the obvious which in the end isn’t really isn’t obvious.
May God give you wisdom in your days.
Bravo! Matt 28:18 Who has authority to talk to the Father except Jesus Christ?
Mary the mother of Jesus was a sinner like everyone else who needed Gods grace. Romans 3:23 & Acts 4:10-12.
No Mary was full of Grace and let’s give God the benefit of the doubt instead of just trying to make a vain attempt in trying to proove Catholics wring here. And just look at what you’re saying, remembering that Jesus hears all we say. Basicaly you are saying to the face of Our Lord “Hey! your Mother was a sinner!”. Would you dare say that to the face any of your friends? I thought you guys were all about a “personal relationship with Christ” but you think that Jesus doesn’t hear you when you’re on a blog. Now as far as The Catholic Church is concerned, we give the utmost honor to Mother of God and please go and look up the phrase (pray tell) and see what you come up with. When did sola scriptura become scriptura litterale?
Anno Domine, you speak as if you were speaking fir Christ Himself about how he feels about his earthly mother. Sure we can say He loves and honor her, but Jesus is greater than Mary. He even called her plainly as “woman” in John2:4 questioning her for something that she seems to be asking from Jesus in an inappropriate time. Just to tell us that though Mary was special to Jesus, she was still human and that no human was to be prayed upon in the afterlife. Human souls are not omniscient to know all the thoughts of millions of people praying at the same time to them. And the Scriptures would not have included John14:6, 1Timothy 2:5 if Jesus was allowing other means to communicate to God. Would a woman talk to her mother in law if she has some favors to ask her husband? Would it not hurt her husband’s feeling that his wife feels more comfortable with his mom than him? Jesus would not feel your personal relationship with Him if you ask help from other “heavenly” beings to go to God for you.
Who made up that definition of pray? Whose behind this defining pray tell. Who told the truth then about Jesus kneeling at a rock and saying his prayers to the father? You guys come up with so much interpretation it sounds like there is no truth to it anymore. I when I read the bible I only read what Jesus is teaching and that is how I listen to what he is saying. You guys should read and listen to the real bible and not trying to read and listen to other people’s words and then pray to our savior for forgiveness and to give you an open heart and may God forgive all of you of your deceitful beliefs.
Dennis,
Your interpretation of One Mediator would then rule out intercessory prayer. Most Protestants do not have a problem with intercessory prayer which is all we are doing when we “pray” to Mary and the saints.
But now you Catholics say that Mary was sinless, and should be worshipped – or at least venerated.
When I pray for someone, that’s acceptable. But after we die, we become spiritual beings, and the only spiritual being we should pray to is God (or His variations such as Jesus and the Holy Spirit).
And if praying to Mary is alright, than why did Jesus publicly reject her, saying that she was no one special to Him?
Dear Johnny,
We honor Mary we do not worship Mary. We believe Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul. But, the other Saints, are still spiritual beings in Heaven. You assert:
I am assuming you are a sola Scriptura Protestant but where is any support in Scripture for this assertion? Are you aware that this is a Protestant tradition?
I know that your above statement is meant to affirm ONE God but God is not one with variations He is a Trinity.
If you believe that Jesus rejected His mother then you are also asserting the He sinned by breaking the fourth commandment to honor His mother and father. Your interpretation is yet another Protestant tradition, that Jesus rejected His mother or was disrespectful towards her. We interpret those verses:
“What have I to do with you” when she asks Him to help out with the wine at the wedding, is a Hebrew idiom that is actually showing respect. It actually means:
I don’t want to do this but out of respect for you I will obey.
We see this idiom again when the demons use it in addressing Jesus with the same meaning.
and again:
He is not rejecting His mother or disrespecting her but elevating all believers and those who do the will of God.
Whether you believe me on the interpretation of the idiom or not, surely you will not believe that Jesus ever broke the Ten Commandments.
Johnny, I know you do not believe Jesus sinned. But, this is a minor example of how Protestant interpretation, when it differs with Catholic interpretation often has the unintended consequence of contradicting something else. This was no small reason for my entering the Catholic Church. The Sacred Scripture, the Tradition of the Catholic Church, her doctrines and interpretation of Scripture is all a seamless garment.
Sublime!!!
Well congratulationds. you’ve just said Jesus is a Commandment breaker. Well done on bringing down the integrety of Our Lord and savior just to proove you prideful point.
And please can someone me where that one is in scripture where it’s not ok after you die and please look up the old definitions to the word “pray”
Jeremy,
Please see my posts:
The Sinlessness of Mary and
Martin Luther’s view of Mary
Also this post:
All Have Sinned
Even Mary needed a Saviour when in her magnificat she said My sould rejoices in God my Saviour
I love the song, “Mary Did You Know” that includes the line, “Mary Did You Know the child that you delivered would someday deliver you…”
Yes, she certainly did need a savior. Please see my post
The Immaculate Conception
Jesus talked in many parables during his ministry. I do not think that Jesus wanted the disciples to tie him up and roast Him over a fire so they could literally eat him or drink his blood.
In John 6:32-40 :
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” “Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.” Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will not drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will ho Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Later in chapter 6 it gives us the scripture written in the response to Carol on May 27th. But I believe that Jesus was talking in a parable on this section. I believe that Jesus wants us to live, breathe, walk, and talk everyday with him. We are to be His light.
In 1 Corinthians 10:3-5 tells us: 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
This scripture shows us that we can do all of the things that are listed even partake in communion everyday and God still will not be pleased with us.
I have to go now but please email me back your response so I can have further conversation on this topic.
This has cleared up alot of questions that I found troubling as a Catholic. Being questioned by close friends and even close family who aren’t Catholic I felt small and felt as if I was weak in faith because I didn’t understand the importance of intercession of pray by Our Beloved Mother Mary and All Our Saints in Heaven. God bless
About the Saints it is very simple, Paul rebuked the Corinthians by having divisions among themselves and saying that some belong to him (Paul) or Barnabas etc, he asked them if did he (Paul) die for them or did they get baptized in his name?? So it is with out any reservation that Paul was trying to take them out of Idolatry and what we now have in the catholic church of praying to them because it is not biblical and it is a sin to pray to another human being, Take a good look at the first commandment and we wont have to say much.This applies to mary too.
Asking Mary to pray for us has nothing to do with factions mentioned in the scriptures you allude to.
Intercessory prayer has nothing to do with idolotry either. Where in scripture does it say that it is a sin to ask for intercessory prayer from one who is a part of the body of Christ in Heaven?
How is this breaking the First Commandment? We do NOT worship Mary and she is not a member of the Trinity. I fear you have been filled with anti-Catholic propaganda which is full of uncharitable judgements, misunderstandings, distortions, and even outright lies.
NOTHING in the Catholic Faith contradicts one thing is Sacred Scripture.
Mary though the mother of Jesus and highly favoured is dead, she was not God just a vessel used to bring the Messiah. It is forbidden in scripture to speak to the dead whether you call it praying or speaking or asking. When asking someone who is dead to pray for you it is consulting with the dead and seen in the same light as witchcraft. speaking to Mary or any of the saints who are now dead is contrary to scripture.
Mary is not dead. She is eternally alive. You are mistaken. Neither is it forbidden to ask for intercessory prayer from anyone on Earth or in Heaven. Asking for intercessory prayer is not the same as consulting the dead for the purpose of divination. You are mistaken. You have been misinformed.
I still beg to differ. God Bless and I will pray and ask him to forgive those of such deceitful understanding of your faith. Same thing he mentioned about the pharisees.
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination – activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
well said Dan, I completely agree with u but the Catholics response would be ” where in scripture does it say all truth can be found in scripture” which is a poor excuse really. I personally rather stick to what I know is Gods word “the bible” than the traditions of men that can’t be found anywhere in Gods word.
stop trying to defend yourselves. If catholicism followed what the Bible says then a website like this wouldn’t have to be created so that all the unbiblical practices of your religion can tried to be justified with “tradition.” Praying to anyone but those of the Trinity is so so very wrong and blasphemous.
Dear Lily,
Thank you for your opinion. But of course this assertion is only about 500 years old. But Catholic prayers to Mary and the Saints go back to the inception of Christianity. Even Martin Luther and Calvin prayed to Mary. Would you please show me in Scripture where it says that praying to anyone other than the Trinity is a blasphemous or wrong.
Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.
Intercessory prayer is when you pray on someones behalf. Mary is dead, she can not pray on your behalf. Jesus died so that we can go to him in prayer, no more sacrifices of lambs
So, if Jesus died, yet we can pray to Him because He is risen and in Heaven, and from reading that Mary is at Jesus’ right hand in Heaven, how is it that she is dead, being at the same place as Jesus, and of course He is not?
May the grace of God be with you!
This idea is to be found nowhere in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that Mary is at the right hand of God. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father (Colossians 3:1) and Jesus hears our prayers and Jesus is the one mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).
I’d like to point out what I think is so dangerous about the conclusions that the catholic church has reached about Mary: it makes Mary a pale imitation of Christ, eventually replacing Him.
MARY intercedes between us and God, MARY ascended into heaven, MARY was born without sin, and never sinned – did MARY die for your sins? Did she bear the sins of many in order to be obedient to the Father? Was Mary hated, punished, and rejected by her own people? Was Mary crucified (Mark 15)? Was Mary raised to the most glorious position in all of the universe?
NO!
Her son, Jesus Christ, was, whom MARY called “God my Saviour” (Luke 1:27).
It is JESUS that we worship, JESUS that we extol, JESUS whom we preach, whom GOD the FATHER glorifies above all others:
“…which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 1:20-23
Search your hearts! When you love God with your whole body, mind, and soul, why turn to anybody else but Jesus? For God, “you know me” (Psalm 139:1) and God has given me salvation through CHRIST, and I need no other mediator.
I hope these words aren’t harsh, they are written in love. Ask Jesus who he would have you pray to.
Mary has not the creator, she is not omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient, she was flesh and blood just like you and I are, would you ask loved ones who have died in faith to pray for you? this practice of speaking to the dead is clearly forbidden in scripture. Jesus is God he is Alpha and Omega he is not dead he you cannot compare Jesus with Mary Jesus is the Almighty God Mary is not.
Dear Truth all that you say about Mary is True! But she is not dead. She has eternal life and is alive in Heaven. And so are all of our loved ones who died in faith. Asking for our brothers and sisters who are alive in Eternity to pray for us is not forbidden anywhere in scripture.
Dear Patricia,
Mary is not dead. She is in Heaven. She is very much alive and able to intercede for us.
Nathan,
Where in Scripture does it say that all religious Truth is only to be found in Scripture? If this cannot be found then you have no reason to criticize Catholic beliefs that you do not find in scripture. Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men.
Patricia and bfhu,
Jesus is a lot bigger than Mary and much more important. He can hear your prayers. Pray to Him.
And like I said, I encourage you to ask Jesus in prayer if He would have you pray to his mother.
In Christ,
Nathan
bfhu,
Where in the scriptures does it say that Mary ascended into heaven?
Dear Lena,
Mary did not ascend into Heaven only Jesus, by His own power ascended. Mary was assumed into Heaven by the power of God just like Enoch and Elijah in the OT. This is not in scripture. It cannot be found in scripture. It is merely an historical occurence like the voyage of the Pilgrims,the first president of the US, although it is miraculous like the OT assumptions.
While it is not found in scripture there is scriptural precedence for the assumption of holy human beings into Heaven Body and Soul. The fact that scripture does not record it is not an argument against it. Especially since St. John records in his Gospel 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
So, we know that everything JESUS did and said is not in scripture so there can be no doubt that everything that happened to Mary and the early church is NOT going to be found in scripture.
Early writing record the historical assumption of Mary. Also, the mortal remains of St. Peter and St. Paul are honored and happily possessed in Rome, no city or Christiann center has ever claimed to posses the mortal remains of Our Lady. And certainly they would be regarded as having greater honor than any Saint or Apostle because of her nearness to Christ and her perfect holiness.
And it is most fitting that the body of Mary, who had been preserved even from the taint of original sin, should not have been allowed to corrupt. After all, it was just as easy for God to take her body to Heaven at once as it will be to take the bodies of all of the saved on the last day.
Also, you may not know this because I didn’t know it until I became Catholic that the bodies of many Saints have been found to be incorrupt years after they should have been decayed. Some of the older ones have begun to decay now but some of them are truly amazing. The body of St. John Neumann was recently given a change of clothes but it was mentioned that there is a mask over his face and yet the body is still miraculously holding together. What state of perfection or decay I don’t know.
Click HERE to see pictures of incorrupt saints.
Also watch the news. The body of St. Padre Pio is going to be exhumed soon to find out if his body is incorrupt.
They certainly have preserved the bodies, you think its amazing, I think its grotesque~ this all sounds so dangerously misleading, especially to new christians or people who are about to become. Oh just because they are so well preserved like plums Catholics and the Catholic Church is saying they are incorrupt, PURE??? If its not found in the Bible, and people made it up~ you already know the answer~ it is just an assumption , a theory.
If you would like to further argue that not everything is found in the bible is true~ Then I can only say that ” oh my father is sinless, so I shall preserve his body, and also pray to him to ask him to help me pray, because I believe he is the greatest! And I shall not need to pray to God, or Jesus, because my father can help me to? Doesn’t thinking about this prove how WRONG it is? its in the moral, conscience seriously.
Most of my Catholic friends are ill informed, in fact, they do not probably know much of the bible at all! Catholics have too many distractions and false rituals etc , taking away the most important attention: And that is God.
Fellow Christians, please do not be mislead by all these , and if you are interested in Knowing God, seek the Truth. Do not blindly cling to your religion for the sake of Ego/ Self Justification, “Brought-up-with-religion nonsense”.
The incorrupt saints are a miracle of God as a testimony to their virtue. We NEVER argue or say that there is anything in the Bible that is not true. We believe in the sacredness and inerrancy of the Bible. There are many lies out there about the Catholic Church and here is another one. I had never heard this one before.
You are correct that many Catholics have not been well taught to the point of defending their faith to Protestants. But they do know what they believe. And, every Catholic who goes to mass every Sunday hears most of the whole Bible every three years.
I am sad to inform you that even though most christians, catholics, buddhists etc goes to church or temples for long time and listen~ some of them never really know what they believe in~ I have to tell you most catholics do not really know what they believe in~ I have many catholic friends which you have admitted that they are not well taught ~ and it is a contradiction when you say They know what they believe. As a christian I have once doubted , and found the answers steadfastly to cleanse my doubts as one…and I will encourage all Catholics and even other religion people to dig deeper into what they really believe in~ instead of being superficial and “clinging” on~…the in-corrupt bodies you are speaking of~ this ritual has been done by the Egyptians thousands n thousands of years ago similarly to their ancestors….fyi…
God does not teach us to preserve the bodies of the dead saints or anyone for that matter, in the whole of the bible..
Prayer is only ot be directed to our God, who can listen and hear my prayer… if we preay to Mary at the same time at different part of this world do you think she could hear us?… only God could hear us all at the same time anywhere any place in this universe for our God is all present all at the same time… Can mary or any other saint could do that?… they are not God but just man a sinful man like you and me…we have already a mediator between man and God that is Jesus Christ who die for us, So our prayer or anything we will ask should and should only be directed directly to Jesus Christ our God and redeemer alone, and to no one for He has not commanded us to do so.. But to Him alone we ask or pray… For our God is a jealous God He want all our prayer to be directed only to Him alone not to Mary or to any other saint or person whom He has just created… So our prayer should be directed only to our creator alone and not to Mary or anybody else…. Regarding on James instructing us to pray for one another the instruction is for alive person not dead to pray for us because it avail much and we ask it thru Jesus name as Jesus instructed us to ask anything in His name it shall be given… And not thru Mary name because she is not God and can do nothing to hear us or intercede in behalf of us…. God Bless U all… Pray to Jesus Christ and ask anything in His name and received what you prayed for…
tidus and sara prayed to god. an angel apreared and said…i intercessed. i delivered your prayer to god the father almighty. so it proves intercessory prayer in a sense. and jesus doesnt hear all prayers. have u heard the story of the woman with the possessed daughter? she asked jesus..hey heal my daughter…he said no, be gone, i dont know u…i came for isrealites. she asked again, and again he said no, so she said one morfe time. even a dog awaits for scraps from their masters table. and finally he said…ur faith has gotten you what youve asked. so answer this….do you think jesus is jealous of his mom, and could she not get things done that maybe he didnt want to do? remember the wine.
i can get the scriptures if u like.
and these saints are not dead…god is god of the living not the dead.
Neilo: Prayer is only to be directed to our God, …… For our God is a jealous God He want all our prayer to be directed only to Him alone not to Mary or to any other saint or person whom He has just created… So our prayer should be directed only to our creator alone and not to Mary or anybody else….
Bread From Heaven: This is your assertion but it is based on your own opinion. It is not stated in scripture and so Catholics are under no obligation to obey you. Mary and the Saints are able to hear requests for prayers by the power of God. I have no idea how this works but they dwell in Eternity; so who knows. No offense, but I don’t think you KNOW either.
Neilo:we have already a mediator between man and God that is Jesus Christ who die for us
Bread From Heaven: Jesus mediates salvation between God and man. If you rule out intercessory prayer b/c it is a form of mediation then you contradict the word of God where we are told to pray for one another. This is what the Saints do…pray for us.
Neilo: Regarding on James instructing us to pray for one another the instruction is for alive person not dead to pray for us
Bread From Heaven: The Saints in Heaven ARE ALIVE! And besides there is NO scripture that says those in Heaven, who have died to Earth, may not intercede for us.
Neilo: And not thru Mary name because she is not God and can do nothing to hear us or intercede in behalf of us
Bread From Heaven: You are correct. Mary is not God. We do not think she is the fourth person of the Blessed Trinity. She is a human. A created being. But, your assertion about asking Mary and the saints to pray for us is again merely your opinion and the opinion of Protestants. Thus, you have no authority to correct or criticize the Catholic Church.
NAV: Prayer is only to be directed to our God, who can listen and hear my prayer…
BFHU: Could you please support this with Scripture?
NAV: If we pray to Mary at the same time at different part of this world do you think she could hear us?… only God could hear us all at the same time anywhere, any place in this universe for our God is all present all at the same time… Can Mary or any other saint do that?…
BFHU: Not by their own power. But God could make it possible for them.
NAV: they are not God but just man a sinful man like you and me…
BFHU: True we know they are human and not divine.
NAV: we have already a mediator between man and God that is Jesus Christ who die for us,
BFHU: Then do you think asking friends to pray for you is wrong? If asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us makes them other mediators then anyone who prays for us is also another mediator. And yet scripture commands us to pray for one another. So, I would like to suggest that intercessory prayer is not a form of mediation that would somehow usurp the uniqueness of Christ being The Mediator between God and men.
NAV: So our prayer or anything we will ask should and should only be directed directly to Jesus Christ our God and redeemer alone, and to no one for He has not commanded us to do so..
BFHU: I would have to see where God has commanded us Not to ask for the intercessory prayer of the Saints in Sacred Scripturre. Actually, He has, in fact, commanded us to pray for one another. And the Saints in Heaven and on Earth and in Purgatory are all a part of the Body of Christ. And we all commune with each other through our prayers. We don’t “pray” to them as gods but as brothers and sisters in Christ.
NAV: But to Him alone we ask or pray… For our God is a jealous God He want all our prayer to be directed only to Him alone not to Mary or to any other saint or person whom He has just created…
BFHU: Scripture support, please?
NAV: Regarding, James instructing us to pray for one another the instruction is for a live person not dead …
BFHU: True, I guess the difference between Protestants and Catholics is that we don’t see our Saints as dead but alive in Christ and in Heaven. Only their bodies are dead but their souls are very much alive.
NAV: (prayers of a righteous man avails much) because it avail much and we ask it thru Jesus name as Jesus instructed us to ask anything in His name it shall be given… And not thru Mary name because she is not God and can do nothing to hear us or intercede in behalf of us…
BFHU: We only ask Mary and the Saints to pray FOR us. We don’t ask our prayers in the name of Mary or in the name of St. Francis. We ask in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
bfhu,
I came to the internet in order to find answers about Mary and the Saints. Thank you so much for your replies.
I’ll print them. God bless your heart.
I heard from a preacher saying that if one pray by the name of a Saint he will be rewarded as a value of the Saint’s remuneration. But I could not find it out from the holly scripture if you can help me if it is there within the holy scripture
That is not in scripture as far as I know and it is not Catholic belief .
Why would anyone ask a dead person to pray for them when we have all been given the opportunity to go directly to a living God? When Jesus died, the veil of the Temple was torn in two which opened the way for each person to go directly to God. Jesus arose to be our high priest, our sacrifice, our advocate and our mediator. People no longer need a priest to ask for our forgiveness of sins, for us. We confess our sins to Jesus Christ and ask for His forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive us. 1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 2:1 – My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: –
Heb 4:14-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. – KJV
Are people afraid of God? Like the children of Israel in the wilderness? They wanted Moses to talk to God for them. Why? because they were afraid. They lacked that personal relationship with Him that Moses had. Why would a child that needed something from his Dad get another person to go ask for him? A logical reason is because of fear. Perfect love casts out fear. God is longing for His people to develop a personal relationship with Him. We can’t have that unless we communicate with Him. Prayer is communication. If people are communicating with the dead, (saint or no saint) that is not good. Deut 18:10-11 “There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” Deut 18:12
“For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD:”
Mary was an honorable virgin woman and chosen of God to birth the Messiah. This does not mean she was sinless. She even had other children by Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Matt. 13:55, Mark 6:3 She died just like everyone else. I find no scriptural reference to where she resurrected or where it says she is our mediator. 1 Tim 2:5 – “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ” Jesus is not dead. He resurrected!
There is a great gulf between us and all the dead. God did not intend for us to communicate with them!
I suggest that you read my article on praying to the saints. Just because someone is dead, it does not remove them from the kingdom of Christians. Just as you ask another, “I’m going through a hard time, can you pray for me?” or, please put my name down on the prayer line so people can pray for me. Why would God disconnect us spiritually with those that are in his kingdom in Heaven with those that are Christians on earth? Are you doubting that God can not let a Saint in heaven hear our prayers?
check out my post on http://www.catholicsview.com and click on praying to the saints near the top for a real world example.
Catholics View
jesus gave the deciples the ability to heal the sick preach his word and forgive sins. he says…forgive those who u forgive and let them retain sin if its what u see fit.
god is not lord of the dead but of the living.
we use mary as a mediatrix, but only to pray for us…you not understanding is not a surprise.
if you cant believe the earthly things that i tell u…how u gonna know and believe about heaven?
there is a day when all who are dead in Christ will be risen to life. Yes God is the God of the living, but there is a time for everything. Even when Lazarus apart from the rich man wanted to help him, he could not. People on who died cannot help those who still lives. People who are alive will need to follow what the Christ says. Even if you pray a lot by your own means but then ignores His specifics commands, what will happen to you?
Has everyone forgotten the Lord’s prayer? When the disciples ask Him to ‘teach us to pray’ He did not say pray to, or ask for help from Mary or one of the Saints. He said to go directly to “Our Father which art in Heaven!!” Luke 11:1-4
Since you asked for scripture.
The Catholic Church condemns the worship or adoration of anyone or anything other than the Blessed Trinity One God. The worship of Mary would be idolatry. We honor our Mother of our Brother, Jesus Christ.
You are mistaking our love for the Mother of God for worship.
I respect Mary because she was selected among all women at that time to be the mother of JC. But, with that said, the Catholics do more then repect her they place her in a position to be wordhiped. Repeating the Hail Mary over and over is worshiping and the
Catholics also have several set prayers to Mary. She is used as an intersesor, I know because I once was Catholic.
In fact, the Catholic’s never wanted us to read the bible on our own they wanted us to listen to the priest only.
On the whole Catholism has added to the bible, and that is wrong, in fact it is an abomination according to the last chaper in Revelation.
JG
“In fact, the Catholic’s never wanted us to read the bible on our own they wanted us to listen to the priest only.”(Jeannie)
This is not true from my experience!!!!
I think lumping”the Catholics” is pretty broad spectrum. That is like saying “all Muslims are…..killers(not true)
or all Charismatics are…… emotional tongue speaking crazies (not true) or all Church of Christ believe no one but themselves are going to heaven (not true).
If you had one experience like that to say ALL is covering a big group.
Blessings 🙂
jeannie, God bless you always. Worshiping and praying are two different things. The one thing that most of the non catholics on this site is judging. So when i ask my friends and family to pray for me, what is the difference in asking a saint or Mary to pray for us. None. They are not dead. Heaven is alive. I am catholic to each is own in the faith, i have no right to judge anybody period, that is for God. non catholics get this Mary and saint things so twisted in a knot. I do not idolize a statue or saint. I believe in God, the Son, and the Holy spirit. I am sorry and forgive me non catholics and brother and sister of Christ but you are so quick to mis judge and its sad, you are all about the bible and the word which is a beautiful thing and God bless you to continue but remember don’t judge. Remember we are judged according to how we judge.
BTW, i read alot of the comments here and one thing i realized is Catholics keep insisting that intercessory praying by your friends and asking MARY, Angels etc to pray for us is the same.
I have been to Catholic church and school before.
in my most humblest opinion, there ARE NOT. They are totally different, someone living now with us we can see, we know, we have to power to pray together, but there is NO EVIDENCE of Mary or the saints who is “ALIVE” in HEAVEN and is able to pray for you-
my point is THE BIBLE is the most powerful and enough proof of this, NO WHERE does it say that Mary or whoever else can pray for you, I IMPLORE all CATHOLICS to read the bible your self, with all your heart, and you will know what GOD is telling you, and you will know that Mary and the saints are all part of it, they were never meant to be “worshipped/prayed to/ extol” to REACH GOD, GOD is the Trinity, The Holy spirit, The Father and the SON. period.
Thank you, i pray for you all, to research and find out on your own, thank you.
Dear Jimmy,
We know that there is a difference between asking a friend to pray for us and asking Mary to pray for us regarding physical presence.
What is exactly the same however, is the request for intercessory prayer. And that is exactly what our prayers to Mary and the
Saints are. Nothing more than asking our friends in Heaven to pray for us.
And we certainly do have evidence that prayer to Mary and Saints is effective. First of all, the way a person is declared a Saint today is an exacting process
of examining their lives. Once they are found exemplary, not sinless but demonstrating great virtue, they cannot become a saint until prayers to them
have resulted in two scientifically verifiable miracles. So, every time you hear that the Church has canonized a new saint there were two miracles verified
by Catholic and non Catholic scientific investigators. So, that is EVIDENCE.
Plus, I have personally had many answered prayers resulting from my prayer to saints. The easiest to explain are prayers to St. Anthony for lost things.
As a convert I was a bit uncomfortable with praying to Saints. But, I did it on faith. Two years ago I began to pray on occasion to St. Anthony when I had lost
something. Within minutes of my prayer I would think of where to look and find it. Once I was keeping a little dog for a friend. While I was gone one of my kids let it
out and it ran down the driveway. He ran after it but it kept going. Two adults looked and looked for him. We came home immediately. When my husband and I got home
We looked for him for an hour driving all around the streets and calling. It was 11:00 PM when we gave up. But I kept praying to St. Anthony. I even woke up and prayed several times through the night. We live a rural area where we hear coyotes nightly. And this dog was a chiuahah. The next morning I was doing my morning prayer when the other little dog I was watching alerted. I said another prayer and went to the front door and walked out. The little lost dog walked around the corner safe and sound!
Another time my husband had been looking for something for 45 minutes and was very frustrated and growling around the house in search of it. I told him to pray to St. Anthony
because I was not going to do it, he should do it. (He is not Catholic) A few minutes later he came in with the lost artlicle and said, “That was scary! It worked. if found it right after I prayed! So, try it yourself. I dare you….:)
Oh and we do read the Bible. I have read and studied the Bible for 40 years. I read it so much I realized Protestantism did NOT align with scripture. I studied myself right into the Catholic Church. Not one thing in the Bible contradicts any Catholic belief. And if a Catholic goes to church every Sunday as they are obliged to do, they will hear nearly the whole Bible in three years. But, there is no Biblical support for the Protestant contention of Sola Scriptura or that everything to be believed must be found in the Bible or rejected. Ironic isn’t it?
You have just said that- you prayed to St Anthony~instead of going directly to God, your prayers answered does not mean anything seriously.
just wondering, do you do this?
In addition, bowing down in veneration before any creature, even angels (cf. Col. 2:18; Rev. 22:8-9), is forbidden in Scripture. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to make any “images” of any creature or even to “bow down” to them in an act of religious devotion (Exod. 20:4-5). To call Mary “Queen of Heaven,” knowing that this phrase was borrowed directly from an old pagan idolatrous cult condemned in the Bible (cf. Jer. 7:18), only invites the charge of mariolatry. And mariolatry is idolatry. In addition, despite theological distinctions to the contrary, in practice many Catholics do not distinguish between the veneration given to Mary and that given to Christ.16
martin luther etc ruined the bible. the catholic bible is the original…72 books…king james etc 66…so uve taken away from the bible..as in rev. u doin bad stuff…get ready for it…..it gonna be a hot one dawg
Do you NOT condemn yourself in error?
What proof have you that God has changed HIS mind?
never have the WRITTEN commands of God been called into question- the 10 cmd predate the RCC.
The dead sea scrolls long predate papal edits and Luther’s concerns.
The Lord tells us His people perish for lack of knowledge, Paul warns of vain deceits, lies and hypocrisy, “Satan himself can appear as an angle of light”. Jesus says beware of false teachers…
Do not bow means do not bow.
yet you bow.
because God said to bow?
NO! God said Do NOT bow.
by what authority do you bow? Not by the authority of the sovereign GOD- His commandment #2 is clear to all except to those from whom it has been concealed by the pope. The pope replaced your 2nd cmd…. by what authority are you empowered to violate God’s law?
By the who pope said bow…. ?
What certainty have you that this was not a doctrine of demons as we were warned?
How do you know that pope was authorized to change scripture- editing the very law of Moses?
a man contradicting the scripture is defined as a false teacher- why do you follow a false teacher?
You do greatly error to follow a tradition in opposition to the UNCHANGING Word of GOD. “Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”
Those are the Words of Jesus Christ.
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked…..
Argue with Jesus’ answer:
“RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
you’re argument is with God not Luther or the obedient to God.
You wrestle against an enemy hidden in plain sight.
We do NOT bow in WORSHIP. We bow to show honor. This an ancient eastern custom that spread to the West. You have been captivated by a Protestant tradition of men.
Please read my post–>Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols.
Bro. Alex Dhanvate,
So poignant are your words and understanding as well as your ability impart that knowledge to rest of us that I am overflowing with the Holy Spirit. I thank you for your words of wisdom wrapped in undeniable truth. I wish I could study with whomever taught you. I wish that I could share the Gospel the way you did in this forum. Reading what you have written has validated my understanding of Christianity and my faith. I don’t doubt my faith in Jesus and today my faith has been renewed as it is daily. It’s just that today I felt Spirit filled and I can’t wait to share this experience with all I come in contact with.
Thank you for your wisdom. Be Blessed!!!
“Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made.” —Isaiah 2:8
God hates idolatry!
“The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.” —Isaiah 2:11
“Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols” -Psalm 97:7
There is NOTHING in the Bible about praying to statues. There is NOTHING in the Bible about not eating meat on Fridays. There is NOTHING in the Bible about worshipping the dead. There is NOTHING in the Bible about digesting Jesus’ flesh and blood. The Catholic religion can’t make up it’s mind and keeps changing it’s dogma (doctrine). They also ADD good works to faith alone in Christ Jesus. Catholicism is a false religion, based upon faith in good works and the Roman Cult…not the Lord Jesus Christ. Roman Catholicism bases many of their beliefs upon TRADITIONS, which they esteem as also being inspired by God. This is a lie of the devil, unsupported by the Scriptures. Read more on TRADITION. The Apocrypha is not part of the Word of God and was rejected by the King James translators for good reason…the manuscripts were corrupt! Is the Catholic church’s doctrine infallible?
Mr. Wintre
God bless your judgmental heart, I am catholic i don’t disrespect anybody’s religion or faith so please stop accusing me and my fellow brothers and sisters of idolizing. In Jesus’ name to my mighty father i forgive you and my you be in peace. We don’t idolize once again brother don’t judge. That’s a big no no in Gods eyes because my father who is in heaven can only judge me, not you
yes, Tony … I am a convert. My family have strong strong ties in the Methodist and other protestant religions. It is a new experience for me to be so very judged and hated. I have to say that the love, understanding, compassion and kindness I have seen in the Catholic church is by far to what I see Jesus to be showing. I just can’t imagine that our Father’s heart could be warmed by some of the behavior and judgment that he witnesses here. It makes me sad and embarrassed to have come from the protestant world sometimes(not that all are like that, I have friends and family who are very supportive of me and KNOW the truth of the church and KNOW that we love and worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!)
Today when I fasted and prayed and meditated on the sacrifice my Lord made for me I can’t imagine bowing down before HIM and Him saying to me” uh, you weren’t suppose to fast and pray on Fridays… you messed up” I believe He will see my heart, my love and dedication and all the people who are soooooooooo wrapped up in this whole “your doing it wrong” mentality might be surprised!
If only they could see our hearts and our love for our Lord!
I look at pictures of Mother Teresa and I admire her, I wish to live a life like hers, I respect her. Do I worship her? NEVER! Nor Mary, Nor any saint or human living or dead.( Although I come very close with my sweet husband! .. HA).
Blessings to you all. 🙂
Amen, Bro!
But, Roger, please tell me where in the Bible it says that everything has to be in the Bible?
Would you be so kind as to name one?
We are just following St. Paul who said that he was filling up what was lacking in Christ.
No, no, no. You have it all wrong. Salvation is by the grace and mercy of Christ. Our good works help purify us from dead works, just like it says in the Bible.
Traditions in the Catholic faith mean the TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES handed down from the apostles…that is what the word tradition means…handed down. Everything was not written down;as St. John clearly tells us when he says in his gospel that the world could not contain the books if all were written down. These are not ethnic or family traditions we are talking about but the very teachings of Christ to His apostles. That is why the are inspired.
You claim that the Catholic Faith is a lie of the Devil b/c it is unsupported by scripture. But the problem with your accusation is that NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that all things pertaining to the Christian faith are to be found in Scripture let alone that anything unsupported by scripture is a lie of the Devil.
The King James translators certainly did include the deuterocanonical books in their Bible. Martin Luther is the one who took them out b/c they contradicted some of his heretical theology.
YES! The Doctrine of the Catholic Church is Infallible.
God be with you.
Alex Dhanvate laid out a very good assessment of Mary’s role in scripture versus her role in the catholic church. As you point out in several different postings, you ask why everything has to come from the Bible. To the church, tradition is just as important. Tradition is fine, but the God’s Word is the final authority. No where in God’s word does it say that any human institution (the church) is infallible. Christ, the head, is infallible, but we are not.
You have offered several explanations to defend the catholic church’s view of Mary. We can agree it is not based on scripture, but tradition. My question for you is if God is God, Jesus Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Christ is the one mediator between us and God, why spend ANY time asking Mary to pray for you? Why not just pray to God? He indeed will hear, and Jesus repeatedly says, Come to me. No one else. What is the heart behind your personal convictions to ask Mary to pray for you? How do you even know that she can hear you?
God bless,
Nathan
Nathan,
No, I don’t ask why everything has to come from the Bible. Protestants reject the practice of asking the Saints to pray for us to God Intercessory prayer, BECAUSE they can’t find any explicit recommendation IN SCRIPTURE for this Catholic practice. My actual question is;
WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY EVERYTHING WE BELIEVE AND PRACTICE MUST COME FROM SCRIPTURE?
I contend that Protestants, while condemning Catholics for unscriptural beliefs are themselves adhering to the unscriptural belief of Sola Scriptura. NOWHERE IS GODS WORD DOES IT SAY THAT ALL RELIGOUS TRUTH IS IN SCRIPTURE.
Sola Scriptura is a PROTESTANT TRADITION invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago. It truly is a tradition of men.
You ask why don’t we just pray to God? WE DO, Don’t you ever ask other Christians to pray about this or that for you? This is intercessory prayer and I know Protestants believe in it. Our “prayer to Saints” is no more mediation than intercessory prayer. We ask the Saints TO PRAY TO GOD FOR US. They don’t answer our prayers by their own power any more than one of your friends who you ask to pray for you is the ONE who answers your prayer request.
Protestants have a double standard that they have been blinded to.
but intercessory prayer is in the bible! tidus and sara..the angel delivered the prayer to god…if thats not an intercessor, i dont know what is.
I want to sincerely help all Catholics~
BFHU~ I noticed you repeatedly ask “WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY EVERYTHING WE BELIEVE AND PRACTICE MUST COME FROM SCRIPTURE?”
My brother/sister, let me give you the answer now~
In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
—Revelation 22:18-19
The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form. (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word (2 Peter 1:20-21). When the Lord Jesus Christ said, “the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35), He was speaking of God’s written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. God’s declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals.
Thus, there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord’s people in the Church.
Now is that sufficient evidence for you to realize that what many Catholic custom, tradition and even intercessory prayer practice is wrong? These practices are all ADDED by the Catholic Church in and of itself. It is not double standard my friend, the Bible explicitly tells us not to add or try anything funny with God’s word….If you still do not believe the Bible is the final word from God, I do not know what to tell you anymore. Amen.
Dear Jim,
The passage from Rev. is no where speaking about the whole Bible since it never mentions it, really. And it could not have been speaking about the New Testament since it had not been canonized yet and John could not have been speaking about that which he did not know. He was merely referring to the book of Revelation. But, even if you want to contend that John spoke by revelation from God about the whole Bible then there is still a very large problem with this sort of interpretation. Using this hermenutic then all scripture after Deuteronomy should be excluded….or do you think after Proverbs?
None of the rest of the verses support Martin Luther’s tradition of men, Sola Scriptura. I know that Protestants use these verses in attempt to give Sola Scriptura the gloss of Scriptural respectability. But none of them say what Sola Scriptura says.
Besides,
The Catholic Church believes that “all scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness… (Note this was referring to the Old Testament since there was not such thing as the New Testament at the time.)
The Catholic Church believes that “no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (But note the prohibition of individual interpretation of Scripture. Sola Scriptura as practiced in Protestantism absolutely contradicts this verse.
The Catholic Church believes that Scripture cannot be broken. We believe NOTHING contrary to Scripture. However, we do believe things that are contrary to Protestant traditions of scripture interpretation. Catholic interpretation is enlightened by our 2000 year history and the writings of the first century Christians. Protestant practice “individual interpretation” and then acquire followers based on how convincing their interpretation is. But the Catholic is not obligated to adhere to the confusing array of interpretations of Protestants who only came on the scene 40 (Chuck Smith)-500 (Luther et al.)years ago.
Protestants always attempt to charge the Catholic Church with adding things to the purity of the Gospel. They charge that the Catholics added books to the Bible, added prayers to saints, added Purgatory, added confession to a priest, added teachings, added statues etc. But the TRUTH is these were all believed from the dawn of Christianity. It was the Protestants that jettisoned all of these things and took from the Catholic Church the Bible and a few doctrines, like the Trinity. Then deleted books of the Old Testament and all the the other Catholic beliefs. Then they turn around and accuse the Catholic Church of adding what was there from the beginning. Unfortunately they convince many uninformed people.
that is an accusation~
“It was the Protestants that jettisoned all of these things and took from the Catholic Church the Bible and a few doctrines, like the Trinity. Then deleted books of the Old Testament and all the the other Catholic beliefs. Then they turn around and accuse the Catholic Church of adding what was there from the beginning. Unfortunately they convince many uninformed people.”
but I shall leave you to your belief brother~ god bless…
Amen.
God bless you and lead you into all truth. It is an accusation. But not of you personally but of the facts that have been used to mislead you and many other Protestants of good will and love for our LORD.
Nathan
God bless your humble heart.
Question. Do you ask for your loved ones to pray for you? Do friends and relatives come to you and say nathan brother can you pray for me? Honestly its a beautiful thing. God is so awesome and over pouring with love and compassion for everyone. I am catholic. above all God, Jesus, and the holy spirit. I dont idolize, its so funny and i laughed because i am being so misjudge. so many scriptures bashing the catholics. Don’t get me wrong, its a beautiful thing people writing scriptures and versus from the Bible, Gods words. Amen brother, but honestly the scriptures or verses it not towards me or my christian brother and sisters, i believe it pertains more to the people who idolizes gold cows and elephants with a million heads. Catholics are so misjudge and its very sad, i am sorry but i don’t idolize anybody or anything. I respect everyone and i don’t judge. Once again i believe in the Father, Son and holy spirit. I respect the mother of Christ but i don’t idolize her, but people and sadly to say are so quick to bash Catholics and with mean judgement due to a misunderstanding. God bless you brother Nathan and your love one with peace, joy and health
I respect catholics, even though i dont not practice what they do nor do i agree…but that does not mean i condemn them or judge them..they way i look at it is Christ will return and the truth will be laid out…I think we should pray that we walk in truth and not deception and The Lord Jesus Christ will guide us….so please stop arguing…it only creates quarrels
May God Bless you all!
Thanks for taking the time to write back to me. Last year I became a
Christian and my life’s been totally changed by living for Jesus
Christ. It’s been great. Last week I went to mass with a friend who
has had a similar awakening in the past year, only he is Catholic. He
feels there is a large void between myself and him, although we are
both trying to live for God. I’ve since been reading a lot about
Catholicism and while I think it’s stupid for Christians to argue among
themselves I think it is healthy for us to talk about these things.
Scripture doesn’t ever say that all truth comes from the bible, for
example, you couldn’t find out how to change a flat tire anywhere in
it. But Scripture is our highest authority, I think we can both agree
on that. If lesser authorities don’t match up with Scripture, we know
they are false. The Bible is God’s Word, and Jesus tested and debated
theological ideas or questions with scripture, Paul does too. In this
way they show that the Bible is the measuring stick by which we test
all ideas, and if they don’t line up, we shouldn’t apply them to God.
Anyways, what I’m really interested in is not church history or who is
right or wrong, I’m curious to know what there is to gain from a prayer
relationship with Mary. The difference between her interceding for me
and a friend is that my friend is in front of me, on the phone – I can
physically communicate to them my prayer request. But Mary is in
heaven, hanging out with her Son and God the Father and God the Holy
Spirit – how do you know that she can hear you? That idea is nowhere
to be found in scripture.
The danger (to me) is the fine line between “praying to” and “asking to
pray for”. Prayer, by definition, is “communicating with a spirit or
deity”. Asking someone to pray for me is fine, because between them
and me is a relationship that involves human to human communication, be
it by phone, e-mail, in person. But when I communicate with God, that
is prayer, because God is spirit, and he, unlike me or my friend, is
omniscient and omnipotent. He knows everyone’s thoughts (Psalm 94:11).
Throughout the Bible this is the regular mode of communication between
God and man.
Mary is in heaven. To communicate with her would, by definition, be
“prayer”. You have to communicate with her by spirit because
physically, it is impossible for her to hear us (and as far as I know
she doesn’t have a cell phone or something to communicate over long
distances).
My friend Jordan who took me to mass talked to me about this, and got
frustrated when I said it seems like he prayed to her. It’s “asking
her to pray”, but she is not bodily here to hear that request. When
Jesus taught us to pray he said to pray to “Our Father”. He is saying
we can pray directly to God. While it is nice to also pray for each
other, I just wonder why we should spend so much time (a Hail Mary is
said nine times – right? – for every Our Father) talking to Mary when
we can go directly to God.
Whew, this was probably too long, and I’m sorry if I’ve wasted your
time. The heart of this issue that worries me is the elevation of Mary
to the position that Christ alone holds as mediator between God and man
and savior between man and God. I’ve heard stories defending Mary’s
elevated position where there are two ladders to heaven, and a man is
climbing them. At the top of one is Jesus, and he is angry and
furious. The man is not able to get in. Instead he climbs Mary’s
ladder, and Mary convinces Jesus to let the man in. I’m not saying you
believe this or that it is the teaching of the church, but you can see
how inverted this situation is – a situation where we need a savior for
a savior! What kind of a savior would Jesus be if he didn’t save?
Take care and may the grace of Jesus Christ be with you,
Nathan
Amen. I further confirm these with these truths:
Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church have their own version of the Ten Commandments, and not only changed the fourth Commandment, which is why most Churches now worship on Sunday, but they also deleted the second Commandment on idolatry? For detailed information see the Roman Catholic Version of the Ten Commandments. Can man change the Ten Commandments of God that define what sin is? (1 John 3:4) Not a chance! If God really allowed this, then man could abolish all the Ten Commandments and then we would have no need for a Saviour! Despite this, many Roman Catholics are very quick to tell us that their Church does have the authority to change the law of God and so their change of the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday was allowed. Note the following blasphemous quote from the Catholic Church that makes God obsolete.
“The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth…” — Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled “Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”, #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
Similarly i found this to self justification from a catholic site – Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
NOTE the diff: when we kneel before kings of the earth we are submitting to the government of the country , however when we kneel to statues with no one around us, what does it make? spiritual contact? respect? Veneration for the statues? or for their spirits?
So an Idolater is a devoted admirer of idols but what does the Bible say about images and idols?
1. Exodus 20:4-5
“Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them Nor SERVE them.”
Do Catholics MAKE graven images? Yes.
Do Catholics KNEEL down to statues of Mary or Jesus? Yes.
Do Catholics SERVE Mary? Yes, as in “Legion of Mary.”
Do Catholics BOW DOWN and kiss the foot of the pagan god Jupiter which was renamed St Peter? Yes.
2. Leviticus 26:1
“You shall make you NO IDOLS nor GRAVEN IMAGE. Neither rear you up a STANDING IMAGE. Neither shall ye set up any IMAGE OF STONE in your land to bow down unto it.”
Do Catholics rear up STANDING IMAGES? Yes.
Do Catholics set up any IMAGE OF STONE? Yes.
3. Deuteronomy 4:16
“Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and MAKE you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of ANY FIGURE, the likeness of MALE or FEMALE.”
Do Catholics make graven images of MALE or FEMALE? Yes. Mary is a female. Jesus and the apostles are males.
4. Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”
Do Catholics SET UP ANY IMAGES? Yes.
Does God HATE IMAGES? Yes.
5. 1 Thessalonians 1:9
“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”
Did the early Christians turn FROM IDOLS? Yes.
6. Deuteronomy 27:15
“CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.”
Does God put a curse on any person that makes any image? Yes.
Why does God call an image an ABOMINATION? Because He hates it.
7. The early Christians had NO IMAGES
Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Athanasius and Jerome wrote strongly AGAINST images, statues and any manner of prayer or veneration regarding them. The Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. voted unanimously to remove all images from the Churches.
8. The Catholic Church removes the second Commandment against MAKING graven images from the list of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17. This presents them with the problem of only having 9 Commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting Commandment number 10 into 9 and 10. That is: 9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods. The following is seen in the book “A brief summary of the Ten Commandments” by the Daughters of St. Paul, p.12, 13:
WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD?
The Commandments of God are these ten:
“I am the Lord your God:
1. You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods.” Exodus 20:1-17
The number Two Commandment should be “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” Exodus 20:4. Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out.
In this way, i feel that it is slightly similar to Islam, which adapted and changed the Bible in its form. no doubt Catholicism is for God and all, but sometimes i think everyone should question their faith and search deep within what they are believing in. I had to question myself and answer it before i am committed.
Is it right? is it wrong?
Not just blindly following and Agressively defend the religion itself just because you are in it, or your parents are in it. Because only in this way, one can learn, one can know the truth.
My response can be found here–>Where is Sola Scriptura in Scripture Alone?
Nathan,
FYI, Catholics are not the only group to pray to saints for intercessory prayer. I know of at least one protestant group who does and has many many churches named after saints. I think there are not “patron” saints of…….. in this group is the only difference.
Have a good day
No one truly knows the implied definition of “mediator” back in those days. It could have several meanings. Many of the old words in scripture had several meanings to choose from. When I read that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, I took it to mean that it is only through HIM that we can be saved… we must believe in Him.
When other areas of scripture refer to not talking to the dead, please remember that there are references in the bible to the “dead” being those who are not alive in Christ (in other words, those who refuse to believe in God and Jesus). There are several occasions where people who are alive were called “dead”, due to them being dead in spirit (not believing). So there can be many interpretations of passages in the bible; just look at the fact there are 2 different descriptions of the creation of the world. This is what happens when you get numerous translations over the years, and the original words can have several meanings.
As far as various interpretations of sacred scripture goes there truly is only one interpretation that is valid and it is the Catholic Church. The authority on earth was given to His Church built upon Peter (the first Pope). I suggest that everyone has truly an open mind and start exploring the Catholic Church for what she truly is, the first Church instituted by Christ. Just start reading Acts and you will find in it the beginnings of the Church. Then read Corinthians and you will finally see that there was an authority given to the Apostles and continues up thru today. Today a lot of people don’t believe in what we are suppose to believe in because “it’s not right for me”, “my family goes to this church”. Start considering what was right for Christ and the Apostles for once!
Arguments back and forth over something little is known about. When European views were injected or should I say contaminated into a blessing. The outcome is Holy Roman Empire (Jihad), Crusades(Jihad), and The Reformation(Jihad) .None of this was about Yahshewah (Jesus) it was about mans thoughts and ideas. That is exactly what this entire forum is about. Argue about why Europe is becoming an Islamic Continent. Picture it Farakahn and Bin Laden live at Wimbley Stadium. Can we say “about time” Europe has tried every other Religion, why not give Islam a crack. Another trendy fad for people to argue over in about 400 years is all it will amount to. Let’s see we had Tree worshippers to become so called Christians, not by salvation but by leadership of a military governing body. Then the Religious governing body went on to kill everything in the Middle East for resources and land. Science and politics split up the ideas of the so called Church-State ,governing body, my error. Next all of the so called Royal families (land barrons) inter mingled with descendants of Abraham, for falsely divine reasons might I add. Next the royal families were disassembled because of a WW. Then later on the Jews were almost exterminated for financial and above all religious reasons in another WW. Your Religions, Rituals, Doctrines, and Reasons are all facades as well as sources of division. Sorry left out millions murdered on every continent known to man, In the Name of God. How can you kill anyone for not having the same religion as you? Jihad, there it all adds up Europe and Islam. Yahweh Bin Yosuf or as you wont say Yahshewah (Greek name Jesus) came to dispell Religious views and he created a true Kingdom not something that man can control and dominate like man has done. But for all men to have the right to see God one day through The Saviour. But if you argue if your Religion is right or not, you are missing the mark. Religion shared with man is no good, a Relationship with God is what it takes. A great percent of your churches don’t do ministry that’s what the Messiah asked his followers to do until his return. Although you are experts at feeding those that are not hungry and helping those that are not helpless. I get it probably because the hungry and the helpless are normally not familiar to you. But the guy that has his 6 figure job, the wife abuser, the known pedophile, and the guy who is going to jail for white-collar crimes sit right there as church officials. Your so called gathering of the saints have become nothing but social gatherings for covetness, boastfulness, and get richer quick schemes. Hypocracy and Academia has surely lead most of you to confuse and be a stumbling block to those few that are Filled with the Holy-Spirit within your congregations. God sees their hearts as well as yours. That is what all will be judged by even if the heart has or has not depicted your actions. One question when did we take a picture of Yahshewah, and why did he put on Caucasian make up, blue contact lenses, and long wig. Must have been during WW2 when Hebrews didn’t want to be executed. All Glory and praise be to Yahweh for Truth, Wisdom, and the ability to witness.
Thank you so much for your help on this “pray to Mary matter.” I have searched the Bible and can not for the life of me find where we are to pray to Mary or the Saints. I was wondering how this ever came to be. You have helped me tremendously.
My conclusion is, it appears that this praying to Mary is a bit in vain. But I tried to remain in the middle, but obviously this choice to pray to Mary is man made. It probably does no harm if the heart is right, but nor would you gain any value in those prayers.
With that said, I feel that the only way to the Father is through JC and that is according to the Holy Scriptures. It also says in Revelation that there is aprice to pay for taking away for adding to the scriptures? Does praying to Mary fit into that catagory.
Even though she no doubt is dead, but a live in Paradise or heaven (how ever you believe) does not mean that she is a mediator. I see nowhere, and I mean no where in the scriptures to pray to Mary or the Saints. So, exactly how do you gain any ground praying in that direction. None! I am thankful that God knows our heart,
But I believe the scripture still has a lot to say about ignorance. I just read the bible through, again, and from what I read-we are to pray to JC and he goes to the Father on our behalf. There are no contradictions if you do not take the writings out of context and order.
This is what I whole heartly believe, now.
Thank you to all who proved it to me through scripture and not reasoning and opinion.
Jeannie Gove
Well you did not waste my time. This article is enlightening and I am happy you posted this. Incidentally I also have related topic posted at bukisa. I hope you care to visit: http://www.bukisa.com/articles/319261_catholics-why-do-you-worship-mary
Why even bother asking Mary, when Jesus is in heaven too? Jesus is the ultimate healer, and in Him anything is possible. For me if I need something I wouldnt ask Mary to pray for me for it, I would ask the Father Himself. =)
That is a good question. I don’t really know the answer but I do know that prayer to the saints are very effective so by word of mouth the practice is promoted . After 2000 years of miraculous answers to prayers requesting the intercession of particular saints it is worth trying. As in scripture God seems to prefer to work through human beings. What can I say? It works or people would not keep doing it. Simple as that.
Timothy 2:5 states “there is one god and one mediator between god and men, the man Christ Jesus”. So why do you need the saints and Mary? Who is better than Jesus?
Dear Andy,
Mary and the Saints join their prayers to ours. They intercede for us. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? It is exactly the same thing. Why do Protestants ask their brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for them when they can pray straight to God? Catholics are merely asking our brothers and sisters, alive in Heaven, to pray for us too.
I don’t understand why they pray to Mary, she cannot do anything for us more than she already has. She does serve as a good Christian example however for us to model after.
You are correct. Mary cannot by any of her own power answer our prayers. All she does is pray for us when we ask her to. It is just like when we have prayer chains or ask our friends to pray for us. The main difference is Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus honors His mother in conformity to the commandment to honor our Father and Mother. Also, Mary, being sinless is completely HOLY. Therefore, in wisdom we pray to this holiest of all Saints in conformity to the passage by James:
My grandpa is dead, and (from what I can tell) he was a righteous man. Let’s assume that he is. Can I ask him to pray for me, same as Mary?
Where is purgatory found in the bible? I have read it many times and have never so much as read anything about a pergatory.
Dear Bible Study,
In the right sidebar you will find a box called Category Cloud. Click on Purgatory. There are many posts there. I have answered this question many times. But I have a question for you. Where in the Bible does it say all doctrine and Christian beliefs MUST be found in the Bible?
i dont understand what do you mean by saying- you would consider to ask somebody to pray for you who is closest to God..and Holiest..like Mary (mother of Jesus) or saints..what make them holiest and closest than I am, does God segregate his believers?
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Hebrews 12:1-2
In the passage above, the nature of the Christian struggle is set in athletic terms – a race. In a race, the runners are segregated according to how they finish the race. Not everyone gets a first place medal.
“So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the increase. Now He who plants and He who waters are one, and each one shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.”
I Corinthians 3:7-9
We are coworkers with God in our salvation. God saves us, but we must cooperate. This is what the Orthodox Church calls synergia. Let’s face it, we don’t all work the same. The wages that we receive for our co-working are not all going to be the same.
Dear Pawan,
No, God does not segregate His believers. We, believers, do that by our choice. Jesus saves us but we are responsible for “working out our salvation with fear and trembling.”
Some work harder than others. Believers are all saved but some achieve a greater sanctification in this life by cooperating more fully with the grace of God.
I hear a lot of people saying that they don’t pray to Mary but they ask Mary to pray for them. Yet you start off your prayer with “HAIL MARY” which I see is blasphemy.
I hear and understand you asking her to pray for you but I don’t agree with it. Would you ask any of your relatives or friends who have passed away to pray for you? HAIL UNCLE BUCK, OR HAIL AUNTY PAMELA, OR GRANDPA JONES ect… and ask them to pray for you in the same way you would Mary? As Mary is just a mere human being like me and you, she is equal to me and you.
Jesus declared “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If its not in the bible then I don’t believe it. Everything Jesus did is not written in the bible but the most vital and important things are.
Please don’t think im being judgemental because im not and im aware that God is the only judge, but it sincerely hurts me when I see people putting someone on a pedestal like they are any higher than you and I. Catholics put priests on that same pedestal, and it just seems like they are trying to take away the glory of god for selfish gain. Some catholics even go as far as calling their priests Father!
Everyone is equal as brothers and sisters and God loves us all the same as his children once you have accepted the lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour and have been born again. No preist or even the virgin Mary or any saint will/gets any preferential treatment from God because of their status and it worrys me that the priests actually allow people to blindly believe this. Anyone who reads the bible and has a close relationship with God knows that this is wrong.
God Bless you all.
As a Catholic, I appreciate your well thought out explaination. By the way, just because some one is a priest, do not mean they can stray.
My only rebutal is that if it is wrong for Catholics to ask for the saints to pray for us, then would it also be wrong for you to ask your church members to pray for you?
Also the defination of hail:
–verb (used with object)
1.
to cheer, salute, or greet; welcome.
2.
to acclaim; approve enthusiastically: The crowds hailed the conquerors. They hailed the recent advances in medicine.
3.
to call out to in order to stop, attract attention, ask aid, etc.: to hail a cab.
–noun
5.
a shout or call to attract attention: They answered the hail of the marooned boaters.
6.
a salutation or greeting: a cheerful hail.
7.
the act of hailing.
Nothing about worship in there.
hail mary is found in the book of luke.
“Some catholics even go as far as calling their priests Father! ”
I’m not a Roman Catholic. However, Eastern Orthodox also call our priests father, so I feel I’m entitled to make a reply.
We don’t call priests father in the sense that they are equal to God the Father. We are showing respect to them as our spiritual fathers.
In the Orthodox Church, as in the Roman Catholic Church, we place a great deal of importance on obedience to those in authority, becasue that is what Holy Scripture commands us to do.
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.” Hebrews 13:7
Now, I know what you’re going to say. Jesus said to call no man your father in Matt. 23:9.
However, I have to say, that makes this statment by Paul just a little awkward:
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
I Corinthians 4:15
He goes and does it again in Philemon 1:10
” that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains.:
Do you think Paul was just ignoring Christ’s command? (Hint: no, just maybe he understood the context in which Christ was speaking, so it isn’t an issue for him.)
What about in the parable in Luke 16 about the poor man and the rich man who both die, the poor may rising to Paradise and the rich man descending into Hades? The rich man calls on Father Abraham and asks him to allow Lazarus to bring him a drop of water. Father Abraham doesn’t respond by telling him not to address him as father. He also doesn’t just ignore the father reference. Instead, he calls the rich man son. Keep in mind, this is a story being told by Christ.
There are so many problems when you take Scripture with such extreme literalness that you twist the context and loose the meaning.
“Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.” Matt. 23:10
In this context, master should be interpreted as teacher or instructor. However, we know from the writings of Paul that the Church has teachers and instructors.
Do you seriously think it is a sin to have Sunday School teachers?
It is all about the context.
About the Virgin Mary, several of your comments are very troubling.
“And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. ”
Luke 1:28
Are you calling the the Angel Gabriel a blasphemer? “Hail Mary” is simply a repetition of what the angel sent by God said to Mary.
“As Mary is just a mere human being like me and you, she is equal to me and you.”
Statements like this from Protestants are just unbelievable to me. They are so full of pride and arrogance. For several reasons, Mary is not a mere human being just like you or me.
Firstly, she is the one person chosen from all of humanity throughout the ages to bring forth God in human flesh. She plays a central role in God’s plan of salvation for humanity. By this fact alone, she is not a mere human like you and I.
By the way, “…thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women” This sounds like extremely preferential treatment to me!
Secondly, no human being has ever had as close and intimate a relationship with God as Mary. The Holy Spirit conceived a child in her womb, and she carried and gave birth to God the Son. If you believe that Jesus Christ is God, you have to do some serious mental gymnastics to get around the simple fact that Mary is the Mother of God. May I suggest that to put yourself on the same level as her might be just a tad presumptuous.
Thirdly, second only to Christ, she is the model for all of us as Christians. Mary had a free will and a choice. How did she respond to Gabriel when he informed her that she was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah?
“And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.” Luke 1:38
She submitted totally to the will of God. Let’s face it, not everyone would do that, and we all know it. Mary gave herself over completely to God’s will, and she is a model for each of us struggling in the Christian life.
“Everyone is equal as brothers and sisters”
Actually, no, we are not. Pardon my bluntness, but this is rubbish. Even in an earthly family, brothers and sisters aren’t equal. That is why the Christian life is referred to in Scripture as a race (Hebrews 12:1). Races have first place and last place.
We are all sinners and all are equal in our guilt and in our need of a savior and God’s mercy and grace (for Orthodox, including Mary and all the Saint). Furthermore, salvation is offered freely to all, and all are called. However, let’s be honest, we don’t all run this race the same way. For you to even dare to compare yourself to the Virgin Mary, or, for that matter, the many Christians who have been martyred and laid down their life for their faith…well, may God have mercy.
Jesus said to “store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven” (Matt. 6:20). We are not all going to receive the same rewards in Heaven because we are not all the same.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10
The thing that troubles me the most about much of Protestant Evangelicalism, particularly of the American flavor, is this mind set of “just me and God” and this insistence on equality. The Church is not an American-styled democracy.
Statements like this from Protestants are just unbelievable to me. They are so full of pride and arrogance. For several reasons, Mary is not a mere human being just like you or me.
Firstly, she is the one person chosen from all of humanity throughout the ages to bring forth God in human flesh. She plays a central role in God’s plan of salvation for humanity. By this fact alone, she is not a mere human like you and I.
These statements you have made just showed how much adoration and importance you have place Mary with. No doubt Mary was a great mother and woman, but you must understand that Mary is a mere human, she would be ANYONE else, which is what the above person said, it is all just a part of God’s plan. You must know God is a jealous God in the sense that veneration towards MAry, or any other humans that ain’t Jesus, IS hurtful to him. That’s the truth of it.
Jimmy,
You are terribly misguided about several things. To be frank, if you are going to take it upon yourself to correct the beliefs of others, you sorely need an education. It is glaringly clear from your posts that you don’t actually know anything about what Roman Catholic and Orthodox christians believe.
I don’t think you realize that you are attacking beliefs that don’t actually exist. You see people doing something that is different from your tradition, and, without knowing anything about what you are seeing, you somehow feel qualified to make very broad generalizations about why those practices are wrong. I would take you seriously if you demonstrated some knowledge of what you are posting about. It is clear that your understanding is extremely shallow, intolerant, and terribly biased by your own beliefs.
“These statements you have made just showed how much adoration and importance you have place Mary with.”
Yes, we absolutely, unashamedly adore Mary and ascribe to her great importance. That does not mean that we believe she has divine powers or is in any way equal to God. She is a human being.
“No doubt Mary was a great mother and woman, but you must understand that Mary is a mere human,”
No, she is not a “mere” human. Jimmy, if we are guilty of lifting Mary too high on a pedestal, you are certainly guilty of going too far in the other direction. She is the mother of God. What don’t you get about that? If you believe that Jesus Christ is God, you must give her that title. I know you don’t want to because your aversion to Catholicism is stronger that your devotion to God’s word. However, there is no way around this simple fact. If you are a Christian, you must give Mary the title Mother of God.
“she would be ANYONE else,”
Prove that with Scripture. You can’t! That is just your bias. The Bible says that Mary was highly favored by God and blessed among women. She was not just another gal that God randomly picked out. To argue otherwise, you must warp Scripture. You go so far to not be Catholic that you end up arguing against God’s word. She was not just another person, and to claim otherwise is to call the Angel Gabriel a liar.
“which is what the above person said, it is all just a part of God’s plan.”
Yes, it was God’s plan, not Mary’s. What’s your point? That is what we believe. Mary was chosen from all women who ever lived to be God’s mother. She is not a mere human. Her role in God’s redemptive plan for humanity is profound. Do you seriously not get this? She was the gateway for the incarnation to happen.
“You must know God is a jealous God in the sense that veneration towards MAry, or any other humans that ain’t Jesus, IS hurtful to him. That’s the truth of it.”
No, Jimmy, that is not the truth of it. Yes, God is a jealous God, and we would be condemned if we worshiped anyone but God. We don’t. When you claim otherwise, you lie. Maybe it is a lie due to ignorance, but it is a lie. That is also a sin, on the same list of 10 that includes idolatry.
We honor Mary for her special place in God’s salvific plan, and we ask her to intercede for us. That is not unbiblical. If you claim otherwise, the burden of proof is on you. You have failed in that burden so far.
Yes I understand, you still sound full of wonder and awe for Mary, not God.
God bless your soul, no point arguing on~ its only hope that we all see each other in heaven. Cheers.
Jim, Demetrios was merely defending Our Lady, why would you therefore assume that he only has wonder and awe for her and none for God. You are not judging with charity.
Roman Catholocism is over 2000 years old. Catholics adhere to the tenents that have been set down and modified by the Pope, which is no diffrent than a pastor or a minister having their own ideals about what the Bible is telling the people and interpreting it himself.
The traditions of the church may seem over the top, mundane, and also sacrelgious to the outsider, but the Catholic church is the oldest which should say something. It was formed by Jesus, not by men who grew tired of following a certain religion and deciding to form their own church. The sacraments are beautiful and obsreved with reverance.
A question I have come to enjoy asking other Chrisitans when I get a querry such as this:
” Since you know so much about my religion, tell me about yours. Can you tell me how old your faith is and who founded it.:
I had a college teammate who believe the Baptist church had been around forever and told me I was lying when I told him that it was not founded until the 1600s! He was aslo suprised when I told him that one of the core ideals behind Baptist faith was the seperation of Church and State while he and the non-denom/baptist ministers at our local chuchs preached on about how prayer should be allowed in public school.
I am a Catholic who is married to a Baptist and my children will most likely be raised by Baptist and I go with her to church frequently, but she has only gone to church with less than I count on my two hands. So I do know about other Christian beliefs as well Catholic beliefs because I tried to convert myself. I can never be anything but Catholic.
As the dad you may seem to be less able to raise the kids Catholic. But, if you just respectfully ask your wife to raise them Catholic…who knows. She may be open since she is not that committed. If you can show her that what she has been taught about the Catholic Faith is wrong she may even convert herself. Pray pray pray. You know it could happen.
I am neither protestant or catholic, I am penticostal and my partner is catholic..
To answer kesterson I dont see anything wrong with praying for someone, dont matter what denomination you are. I grew up with family members/friends praying for me and I pray for others. I just dont see how the hail mary came to be or fits in with the word of God. Ive searched and cant find it in the bible but I did find Matthew 6:7 and 15:8-9, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. … This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
Furthermore in response to Demetrios, I have news for you my friend, Mary did not remain a virgin. After Jesus was virgin born through a miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit of God, Mary and Joseph married and had many children (Matthew 12:46-47; 13:55-56). Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Jerusalem when He was 12 (Luke 2:42). Why would Joseph be present if he weren’t Mary’s husband? Mary did not remain a virgin!
As mentioned, Mary was a SINNER, just like you and me. Mary had to trust Jesus Christ to forgive her sins or else couldn’t have gone to Heaven. Read what Mary said about Jesus in Luke 1:47, “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Mary is in Heaven today ONLY because she believed on Jesus Christ as her Savior to forgive her sins.
Your statement saying that brothers and sisters are not equal even in an earthly context made me feel sorry for you if thats what you really think based on your experiences because all my siblings have always been treated equally and fairly and I know thats how God see’s all his children, He loves us all equally, I think its ridiculous to even suggest that he has favourites like its some sort of competition. Gods love is and always will be fair and just.
I believe most Catholic people are sincere. They go to Mass and hear the pretty music and church bells. They hear the Scripture quoted and are taught to partake of Christ’s death in order to be a part of His resurrection. They are taught about the blood of Jesus and the mystery of the Gospel, and so forth. It all seems so religious.
However, they are not taught to be born-again as Jesus commanded in John 3:3, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” If you’ll notice, every word the priest speaks at prayer time is recited from a piece of paper, and not from his heart as the Lord desires. Matthew 15:7,8, “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.” Catholics do have religion, and grand it is; but they don’t have the Spirit of God. Catholics have the spirit of ancient Babylon, the mystery Queen of Heaven—the Blessed Virgin; but they don’t have the truth of the Gospel, which is without works of self-righteousness. Matthew 5:20, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
What worries me the most is that there is too much enthesis on the virgin mary, priests and popes than there is on Jesus Christ our Lord and God the father, they seem to be overshadowed
Mary was and is blessed but truth is Jesus is the one who died on the cross for our sins and deserves all the glory and all the praise.
I go to a pentecostal church but dont like to use titles. If your a Christian then your a christian, end of, if you accept Jesus as lord and saviour and follow gods word then whats in a name. Its that segregation and mind set that causes wars in the world. To many people just follow religion blindly but dont have a true relationship with God and I feel that that is of upmost importance.
Simon,
I just want to start by pointing out that I presented numerous passages from Holy Scripture supporting my points. I would encourage you to reply to the Scriptural evidence that I have provided. I am assuming that as a Pentecostal, you adhere to Sola Scriptura. Therefore, please, I would appreciate it if you would not ignore the Biblical passages that I have offered supporting my positions.
The suggestion that Mary lost her virginity to Joseph is both beyond reason and taught nowhere in Scripture. Mary and Joseph were married. However, there is no evidence that they had children together.
My own personal, private belief is that Mary was raised in the temple and was entrusted to Joseph by the temple when she became sexually mature, and that Joseph was an older widower with numerous children from the previous marriage. This is not the official position of the Orthodox Church. This is based on historical writings of early Christians, “early” as in taught by the original 12 apostles. I just believe that this is what happened. I fully understand that this is not what is narrated in Scripture, but I also will point out that nothing about it is inconsistent with what is taught in Scripture. I do not suggest, or believe, that this is the same as what we read in the Bible, which Orthodox definitely believe is inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore inerrant. I’m not saying that anyone who says they are a Christian has to believe this. I’m just saying that I believe this historical account, not necessarily as a matter of faith, just as a historical account written by the earliest community of believers.
“While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
Matthew 12:46-47
I have news for you, Simon. The Bible wasn’t written in Beaumont or Little Rock in 2010. Stop interpreting it like it was. It was written in the Middle East, in an ancient Hebrew culture, 2,000 years ago. Just as in the modern Middle East, and many other parts of the world, the word brother is used for many familial relations, including cousins, nephews, and stepbrothers. The distinctions that we make in this society are not made in these other cultures. There is no evidence that when the Bible speaks of Christ’s brothers it is actually going outside of the cultural context in which the Bible was written (especially in order to suit Americans in the 21st Century).
I have two problems with the idea that Mary lost her virginity to Joseph. Firstly, it makes a mockery of the Incarnation. Unless they’re just not thinking it all the way through, I don’t understand how anyone can believe that Jesus Christ is the human incarnation of God and not believe that Mary remained a virgin. By the way, some things don’t need to be spelled out in Scripture because they’re just so obvious. This is one of them. You guys just can’t seem to get it that our teachings about Mary don’t actually have anything to do with who Mary was – it is all about who Jesus Christ is. The belief in the ever-virginity of Mary has nothing to do with Mary – it has everything to do with the belief that Jesus Christ is God.
What you are suggesting is that Joseph would have taken a woman who conceived God within her by the power of the Holy Spirit and had a sexual relationship with her. It is just beyond absurd, even blasphemous. If Christ’s garments are sanctified (Luke 8:44), what does that mean about the body of Mary? I know you don’t understand it, but as far as I’m concerned – and the last 2,000 years of Christianity for that matter – when you deny that Mary was ever-virgin, you deny that Jesus Christ is God.
Secondly, this teaching that Mary is not ever-virgin is nearly completely absent from the Christian faith, and definitely the apostolic faith, for the first 1,500 years. It is a new invention. Do you think the Early Church and the ancient Church Fathers never read Scripture? They’re all pretty clear on the ever-virginity of Mary. Nobody believed this garbage until well after the Reformation. Even the major reformers believed in the ever-virginity, mainly because it is so basic and fundamental to everything else.
As far as Mary being a sinner, the Orthodox Church does not agree with our Roman Catholic cousins on the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Keep in mind that we don’t believe in what the West calls original sin. We believe that Mary was conceived with ancestral sin – the consequences of Adam’s decision to rebel against God, which is inhered by all mankind (death). In this sense, Mary did need a savior, because, as a human being, she was born under ancestral sin and would suffer its consequences – death and a tendency toward sin. She is part of humanity, and all of humanity needs a savior. However, we believe that, entirely through the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary did not comitt pesonal sin.
Simon, I will limit my reply to your comments about the presumed equality of all believers because you didn’t actually address any of the Biblical evidence that I presented. That is somewhat odd for someone that I assume believes in Sola Scriptura. It is clear that your comments are biased by your personal sense of fairness, and have nothing to do with what the Bible actually teaches.
The Scriptural passages that I presented to you clearly indicate that we will be judged by God for how we ran the race – how we lived our life on this Earth – and it is clearly implied in those verses that not everyone will receive the same rewards.
I’ve noticed that in Protestantism (and yes, that includes you), certain aspects of American culture are wrapped up in the religion. It can be proved scientifically that Americans are the most individualistic people in the world, placing an almost extreme emphasis on individuality (research by Hofstede, 1971). That gets wrapped up in the society’s predominant religious views (which is Protestant Evangelicalism, which includs Pentecostalism, in the U.S.), especially with what Matthew Gallatin calls the “Just me and God” mind set. I am constantly hearing this emphasis on a “personal relationship” with Christ. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it definitely wasn’t the emphasis of the Early Church. Nowhere in Scripture do I see any emphasis on a personal, private relationship with God. Such a concept would have been foreign to the earliest Christians. Instead, I definitely see emphasis throughout the New Testament from Acts onwards on living as a believer who is part of a community. Americans also have this strong sense of equality and fairness, this idea that we are all the same. That is great for our society, but it shouldn’t cloud our understanding of the christian faith or God’s plan as revealed to us in Scripture.
In terms of God’s saving grace and mercy, we are all equal. In terms of our rewards in Heaven and our “pleasingness” to God, sorry, but we are not all equal. In terms of blessedness and holiness, Mary is greater than you or I. So are many, many other saints.
“And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”
Romans 9:10-13
Keep in mind that Jacob and Esau weren’t even born yet, and God had already made a preferential choice about both of them. By God’s choice, Jacob was going to be elevated; Esau was not. Maybe it isn’t “fair” to you and I, but the fact is that God does have favorites. Mary is one of them.
I’m not arguing this in a Calvinistic sense. I believe Calvinism and unconditional election are heresy. I’m not talking about salvation. As I clearly wrote in my post, God loves us all equally. Christ died for all equally, and salvation is offered freely to everyone. We are all called, and God doesn’t knock at anyone’s heart more than another person. When it comes to salvation, God is not a respector of persons. Despite your comments, which seem to ignore parts of my original post, I made this very clear in my initial comments.
However, in God’s plan for humanity, some people are chosen to be lifted up, blessed, and glorified over others.
“What worries me the most is that there is too much enthesis on the virgin mary, priests and popes than there is on Jesus Christ our Lord and God the father, they seem to be overshadowed.”
Simon, what worries me the most about statments like this is that you’re making judgements about people and their faith when you obviously don’t know anything about them. From your comments, you are clearly ignorant of what Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe. How many Roman Catholic masses or catechism classes have you actually been to? Your comments were directed toward an Orthodox christian. How many Orthodox Divine Liturgies or catechism classes have you ever been to? How many times have you sat down with an Orthodox priest and discussed what we teach and believe? Have you read a single book on Orthodox teachings?
You’ve made these judgements, but what are they based on? Are they based on what Pentecostal pastors have told you about what we believe? I don’t know where you’re coming from, what frame of reference or set of information you have?
“However, they are not taught to be born-again as Jesus commanded in John 3:3”
This is just not true. Again, how could you possibly know this? The Orthodox Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our only Savior and our only way to God. We honor and bless the saints and ask them to pray for us, but we never worship them and never look to them as a savior or redeemer. Only Christ is the way, truth, and life, and there is no salvation except through Christ. I don’t know how to be any plainer or more direct than that.
“If your a Christian then your a christian, end of, if you accept Jesus as lord and saviour and follow gods word then whats in a name. Its that segregation and mind set that causes wars in the world.”
Simon, yes, if you put your faith in Christ as your savior and seek to follow God, you are a christian. Nobody is trying to say otherwise. However, Jesus Christ didn’t start a new religion, an association, or a club. He founded a Church – a single Church, not to be cut up and divided. There is only one of those. All of these different denominations and groups are a rebellion against God and a sin.
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:20-21
All of this division and faction in the church is sinful, and disobedient to Christ’s words. However, that doesn’t change the fact that there is one Church, started by Christ through his apostles. It may have suffered division due to human pride and arrogance, but it has been continous since AD 33.
Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed to one or more deities. The word is derived from the Old English worthscipe, meaning worthiness or worth-ship — to give, at its simplest, worth to something, e.g Rock and Roll, Korean Pop band, Mother Mary.
Do you guys understand the meaning of Worship or is everyone who is doing it denying that they are doing it? It is interesting.
Worship doesn’t necessary mean putting an altar of Mary, sacrificing objects burning incense to that idol or whatever. WORSHIP is in its simplest form- Giving your attention, or worth to a force, an object, and in that i implore you to search your hearts, when you are puttin mary and whoever was dead( and now alive in heaven as you claimed) into your prayers, you are puttin them higher attention and sharing them with God’s intent. God does not want this. God wants us all to know that RELIGION has been tampered with, it is but the tools of mankind, whether be it from Rome, Middle East etc it is always been manipulated with MAN.
Read the source yourself and decide, if it takes for you not to have a religion , just plain worship of God, DO IT. God does not want you to continue down a path of so called religion and doing what CONTRADICT his works and the Word in the Bible.
Jimmy,
You have asserted your opinions about what you believe, but you back them up with nothing. Therefore, you have no credibility. We do deny that we worship Mary and the Saints. We honor them. We venerated them. We reserve worship to God alone.
You are being VERY uncharitable and judgmental to think you can discern that Catholics WORSHIP Saints.
In your effort to define, as IDOL WORSHIP, Catholic requests to the Saints, for intercessory prayer, you said:
If giving your attention or attributing worth to someone equals worship in your book, then I guess every couple who falls in love, worship each other.
Every mother, worships her baby and children.
Every child worships its mom and dad.
Every school child worships school.
Every worker, worships their job.
Every family worships their home…..I could go on and on.
Your understanding of the definition of worship is flawed.
Modern Catholicism dates from the Council of Trent held from 1545 to 1563. The Council of Trent was a counteraction to the Reformation. It fixed the standard to which all Catholics must conform and to which all converts to Catholicism must consent. When a person becomes a convert to Catholicism, he must profess the Tridentine Faith in which he promises to “undoubtingly receive and profess all…things delivered, defined, and declared by…the holy Council of Trent” (paragraph 11).
The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church,…
In summary, what was said in the preceding quotation was:
The invocation and veneration of the dead saints is agreeable to the usage of the Catholic Church.
The Bishops and all who sustain the office in charge of teaching are to instruct the faithful in the matter of praying to the dead saints and requesting their help.
Honor is to be paid to relics.
The use of images is legitimate in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that you shall not make a graven image (Exo. 20:4).
Those who deny that the dead saints are to be prayed to (invoked) are impious.
Those who insist that praying to the dead saints is idolatry are also impious.
They think impiously who imagine that it is repugnant to the Word of God, opposed to the honor of the one mediator, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to supplicate vocally those who reign in heaven.
This would seem to be enough to prove forever that the Catholic Church not only practices idolatry but teaches its constituents to do so. But this is not all.
The “holy Synod” continued:
Can anything be clearer than this? The dead bodies of human beings are to be venerated, that is, worshipped and adored, by the believers. And it is taught by the Catholic Church that these bodies convey spiritual benefits upon those who worship before them. This is not a fairy tale. In April of last year someone visited Rome and made several trips to St. Peter’s Church. On the main floor of the nave of St. Peter’s were the dead and partially decomposed bodies of two previous Popes who are in process of being canonized for sainthood. The dead bodies lie in a glass case, and as I stood there he beheld “the faithful” come and kneel before the bodies to pray and worship. One need not step into Doctor Wonmug’s time machine and be projected into the Middle Ages to behold such blatant idolatry. One need only board a 747 at Los Angeles International Airport and fly to Rome, and he can behold it as it exists this very day, just as I did.
Not only did the Council of Trent teach that the faithful should venerate the bodies of the dead, but they without equivocation “condemned [all] who affirm that veneration and honor are not due to the relics of saints; or that [they] are uselessly honored;…and that the places [graves] dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited.”
The Synod continued by saying:
The Synod went on to say that these images are not to be worshipped because divinity or virtue resides in them or because any trust is to be placed in them, “But because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent.” A prototype is the original. Apparently these images of Christ, the Virgin, and the saints are considered to be genotypes, or copies of the originals. Surely this is superstition. The fact is that no one since Bible times has ever seen the Virgin Mary let alone Christ, and absolutely no physical details concerning their appearance is recorded in the Bible. The only passage which comes close to describing Christ is Isaiah 53, which does not present Him in a flattering fashion at all. There is no record that the church had any pictures of Christ during the first four centuries, let alone images of Him. The so-called pictures and images of Christ, Mary, and the saints are purely the product of someone’s imagination. Not one of them is a true replica.
The only thing we know about the Lord’s physical features is that He was a Jew. How would you like it if someone who had never seen you and knew nothing about you resorted to his own imagination, background, and nationality to come up with an image of you? The result would be fraudulent. I would resent it. And certainly Christ resents with a passion all these fraudulent, counterfeit genotypes of Himself. No picture or idol can do justice to His personality or portray His deity. According to Deuteronomy 34:6, the grave of Moses was kept beyond the reach of idolatry. It would have been sheer horror, to say nothing of blasphemy, for the body of Moses to have been displayed in a glass case for the devout Israelites to come and venerate. It is also significant that the physical features of Christ have been kept beyond the reach of idolatry. The Bible is extremely clear: (1) It says on the one hand that God is a Spirit, and that they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in reality (John 4:24); and (2) it also says that:
being…the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man (Acts 17:29, NASV).
The COUNCIL OF TRENT says:
To make such a statement is to fly in the face of God’s Holy Word. It is to require the faithful to practice idolatry contrary to what God enjoins in His Holy Word.
The Bible Answer Man tells us that Roman Catholics do not pray to the idol but to the spirit that is represented by it. But this is the answer given by idol worshippers the world over. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church consecrates statues and images, that her priests bless them, that they are placed in churches and in homes for her people to bow down to and offer incense before. Neither can it be denied that she does this in contradiction to the second commandment, and that she teaches as Christian doctrine that which is entirely contrary to Scripture. If the Apostles were to return to earth today and enter a Roman Catholic Church, they would not be able to tell the difference between the pagan worship of idols which they knew in the first century and the contemporary practice of kneeling before images, burning incense to them, kissing them, praying to them, and carrying them in public processions.
It is important to point out that what I have said in this article is not directed to Roman Catholics as individuals. It is directed at the religious system. I am fully aware that there are many Roman Catholics who are genuine, born-again believers in Christ. Perhaps many of them do not invoke the help of saints, worship before the bodies of the dead, superstitiously believe that spiritual benefit can be derived from venerating relics, or practice image worship. But the fact is, these believing Roman Catholics to the contrary, that a system of idolatry exists which is known as the Roman Catholic Church. Those who are in it, even though they may be genuine believers in Christ, are lending their support and their presence to a system which is clearly condemned by God in the Bible. It is this fact that the Bible Answer Man should point out in faithfulness to his audience rather than whitewashing the whole situation and misleading his listeners. John Henry Newman, an Anglican priest who later turned Roman Catholic and rose to the rank of Cardinal, in his book, The Development of the Christian Religion, admits that “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holy days and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, monks and nuns), images, etc., are all of pagan origin” (p. 359). If a Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church itself admits to these things, why should a Southern Baptist radio preacher try to cover it up? May the Bible Answer Man be helped to realize his responsibility to be faithful to the truth, no matter how unpopular it might be.
credit be given due resource~
go read it up, before you judge me for “judging” which is no difference from what you are saying. Mind you these thoughts, these words are not mine alone and the world itself knows.
Jimmy,
You are wrong. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ at Cesarea Philipi on Peter and the Apostles about 2,011 years ago. We have a record that it was called the CATHOLIC CHURCH at least by the year 107 AD.
The Council of Trent Dogmatically Clarified for the Faithful what the Catholic Church taught and what it did not teach. It highlighted the heresy promulgated by the “The Rebelllion” also called the reformation. The teachings of the Protest-ants had muddied the waters and caused great confusion among the average Catholic. It was imperative that the faithful be given a sure and clear statement of what was to be believed and what was to be rejected.
COUNCIL OF TRENT
Thanks for the quotes from the Council of Trent. I have gone in and blockquoted them so that they stand out. What is said is perfectly true. And if you read them carefully you will notice that a distinction is made between veneration of saints and worship of Diety. Protestants always want to insist that worship and veneration are exactly the same thing so that they can accuse Catholics of Idol Worship. But they are NOT THE SAME THING.
Historically the use of the word worship has been used to address human beings, as to kings or other honored officials, as in:
“Good evening your worship….”
We no longer use worship except to designate adoration, prayer and sacrifice to God. But in the literature of ages past worship is used both ways but it has NEVER EVER MEANT THAT CATHOLICS WORSHIP ANYONE BUT GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, ONE GOD.
Since you feel so strongly I would like to invite you to start your own blog to educate people you want to educate. But please do not post here anymore unless you want to actually dialogue, have a conversation, that would be great. But if you just want to try to evangelize us, by stating your beliefs, please start your own blog. Thanks.
No matter what ‘proof’ you have presented, you MUST follow the Bible. Jesus will not put your current sins behind you if you blatantly disregard His laws.
Hell is eternal.
I agree.
I will definitely stop posting here. But since you opened up the blog for people to post comments and replies, I think you should just end this option. I have not attacked any beliefs except back them up with the passages and many scriptures. I am sorry if you felt stressed or agitated by what I have posted. But I just feel the need to clarify certain things. Thanks.
God bless you.
You are free to post or not. Why do you think I should not allow people to post? Do you think it is unfair that I respond to your posts and defend the Catholic Faith? If so then I can understand why you don’t want to post. I am hopeful of honest and civil conversations. And that is why I have the option for others to comment. And I will continue to do so.
Very, very sad. As God is my witness, unless one follows the Bible, one will not see the kingdom of God. With pope John Paul II as an example, catholics MUST turn to Christ and be born again. There is NO OTHER WAY.
Remember this above everything else…..Hell is eternal.
Brian,
Exactly which of the approximately 20,000 Protestant interpretations of the Bible would you suggest Roman Catholics follow?
The Bible doesn’t interpret itself. And please, don’t insult me by saying that the Holy Spirit guides each individual believer to the truth through a plain reading of holy Scripture. Look up church in your local yellow pages, look at the number of “churches”, and tell me that that is possibly true. Christ established a Church for a reason, and it alone is the pillar and foundation of the truth (I Timothy 3:15). There is no division, deceit, or confusion in God. You can sit 50 Protestants in a room, show them the exact same passage of holy Scripture, and get 50 different interpretations. This is division and confusion, and it is not the correct approach to the interpretation of God’s word. Individuals are not the pillar and foundation of the truth…the Church is…and that is God’s word, not matter how smart you might think yourself to be.
Should they follow Brian’s interpretation of the Bible? Pope John Paul II isn’t infalliable, but in some miraculous way you are?
Baptist (General, independent, Southern, primitive…the list goes on and on and on and on) ? Assembly of God? Pentecostal? Methodist? Lutheran…several flavors of those also? Presbyterian…several options there also? Congregationalist? Nazarene? Non-denomenational (whatever that means)? Etc. Etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Which interpretation of the Bible would you suggest Roman Catholics turn to?
“THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” John 17:21 KJV
Denominations aside, you will agree that Christians only follow the bible, im not saying the Catholics – ALL is wrong, but u have to admit that many are misguided because of the way it is presented for etc- people blatantly worship Mary and the Angels, they even pray to them~ some even believe in praying directly to the saints without God! for etc there is one person who prays to St Anthony for different reasons and so on….
We are all following the same God. The same father and Son. the only thing of caution i have to say is that many young or misguided Catholics are increasing, without the notion of what is going on. Some of them place more emphasis on the statues and idols created rather than to our Father in heaven, this is evident in some of the practices going on. We are all the same its true, but why make things that there is a chance for people to be misguided? maybe some catholic churches never teach the right way, but still it is a chance for error to happen. There is no need to turn to any interpretation, just the orignal holy one will do. Just know the difference between what it means to be a Christian- what you so prefer to call Protestant, and what it means to be a Catholic. It is very different. the rituals, customs and so on are so much more in Catholic churches for etc.
And i have a poor kid here who’s a Catholic, a friend of my young sister who claims that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, and she is more powerful than Jesus because she gave birth to him! Just imagine if this kid dies…what will happen to her soul believing in that?! How she learn this from her parents or from the Catholic church she went to is beyond me but all im saying is that why take the risk? why risk having so many factors like Saints, angels etc etc, pray to Mary…its not the same as having a friend who prays for us in the flesh, the saints are not God and they do not know what is happening on earth, this is logical. Because even in the bible it is said even the angels do not know everything, And that is for a reason God so made the rules.
I have seen some testimonials recently as well, and they came from visions given to them and some of them said that Jesus told them to announce this, spread this to the world….one of them is this. I know it contradicts ur belief greatly but trust me… God does not want us to even try communicating with Angels, saints, Mary and so on other than the only appointed one, Jesus Christ.
Jim,
I’m not a Roman Catholic. I’m an Eastern Orthodox christian. There are some things on which we disagree with the Roman Catholics. However, for the most part, we tend to come down on the same side when it comes to many of the objections of Evangelicals. Therefore, I’m going to offer a response to your post, but without presuming to speak for Roman Catholics. This is an Orthodox perspective, and I ask Roman Catholics to forgive me if I misrepresent their beliefs.
“Denominations aside, you will agree that Christians only follow the bible”
First off, no, denominations not aside. The current divisions in Christianity are a blatant rebellion against God. It is sin. It is rooted in human pride and rebellion.
Actually, to address your comment, Christians don’t just follow the Bible. The ancient Church founded by Christ most certainly did not. We follow in that tradition.
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:15 KJV
We (Roman Catholics and Orthodox) believe that the Bible is God’s holy word. Every single word of it is inspired by God. It is inerrant.
However, it is not the only source of doctrine and practice. It wasn’t until the 1500’s that the notion of Sola Scriptura came into existence. Furthermore, never does the Bible itself make any claim to be the only source of doctrine or practice. In fact, it teaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
The Bible must be interpreted. As I said before, you can take 50 Evangelicals, show them the exact same passage of Scripture, and you may well get 50 different interpretations. There is no such thing as someone who just follows the Bible, including you. We follow the Bible as interpreted through whatever system we choose to follow. Therefore, Jim, your claim that Christians should only follow the Bible is quite ridiculous on its face. Such a thing makes no sense. You have to interpret the Scripture.
Therefore, back to my question, whose interpretation should one follow?
Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe in interpretating Scripture through the apostolic traditions. The Bible was written and canonized by the Church, for the Church, to be interpreted within the Church.
” There is no need to turn to any interpretation, just the orignal holy one will do.”
This statment makes no sense. Which original one? Of course, everyone is going to claim that their interpretation is the original one. Do you mean your interpretation? Why is your interpretation any better than the Pope’s? This is perhaps the central problem with Evangelicalism. You by yourself are not an authoritative source of interpretation of the Bible. The CHURCH – not the individual – is, according to the words of the Bible, the pillar and foundation of the truth (I Timothy 3:15). You don’t get to interpret Scripture for yourself. Only the Church founded by Christ God has that authority.
“people blatantly worship Mary and the Angels, they even pray to them”
This is simply not true. You don’t understand what you are talking about. You observe people doing something that is different from your practice, and you automatically start making assumptions about what they are doing. Unfortunately, your assumptions are not well informed.
The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both encourage believers to ask for the intercessory prayers of the saints, including God’s mother. The doctrinal foundation for this is very simple. We believe that all christians – both in this world and in Heaven – are part of the church. You don’t cease to be part of the Body of Christ because you depart this world. Death has been defeated by Christ, and the souls of believers never taste death. They are very much alive. We believe that members of the church should pray for each other and ask each other for intercessory prayer.
“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 KJV
“And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.” Matthew 17:3 KJV
Furthermore, the Bible teaches us that right now in Heaven, the saints are offering intercessory prayer to God. Therefore, we ask the Holy Virgin Mary to pray to her Son on our behalf and for the saints to pray for us. Don’t worry, we also pray to God directly.
We absolutely do not worship them. No created thing can be worshipped – only God.
” God does not want us to even try communicating with Angels, saints, Mary and so on other than the only appointed one, Jesus Christ.”
This is a strange statement for someone who believes in Sola Scriptura. Where is this in Scripture?
Demetrius, In my opinion and relationship with God your perceptions are so wrong. Its not for me to judge, but some of the things you say sound completely the opposite of what the bible teaches. I’m scared for you but i’m praying for you. U seem so misguided, From my experience the catholics/protestants are so wrong in their teachings and their teachings aint that of the bible or our lord Jesus Christ.
I pray to God in the name of Jesus only! Where does it say in the bible to pray to saints? This is something made up by the catholic church, like a lot of things are.
“Furthermore, the Bible teaches us that right now in Heaven, the saints are offering intercessory prayer to God. Therefore, we ask the Holy Virgin Mary to pray to her Son on our behalf and for the saints to pray for us. Don’t worry, we also pray to God directly.”
Sorry, I don’t mean no offence but that’s rubbish. The Saints and Mary the mother of Jesus Christ are human beings! They are people just like you and me! A saint is just a sinner who falls down but gets back up. So anyone who follows the word of the Lord and believes in Jesus is a saint.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Pray to God in the name of Jesus, not through Mary or any other saints. Jesus died for our sins so that we could go to him. God is not going to favour someone more for asking Mary or saints to pray for them than if someone prays to God directly in the name of Jesus.
I think its an insult to God and Jesus.
Simon,
“Sorry, I don’t mean no offence but that’s rubbish.”
According to who? Simon or the Bible? You haven’t offered a single verse of Scripture, so I’m assuming according to Simon.
“And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.” Revelation 8:2-3 KJV
Simon, if you believe that angelic beings are not before the throne of God offering up the prayers of the saints on their behalf, you should take it up with Saint John. Yes, I know, you can pray directly to God. That is great. We should all do that. However, whether you like it or not, the prayers of the faithful are offered by intercessors who are standing before God’s throne. I know it isn’t in one of the verses you have highlighted in your KJV (like Luke 1:48), but it is there nonetheless.
“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” James 5:17 KJV
If you believe that all that matters is just you and God, it is all an individual thing, and that you don’t need the prayers of anyone, take it up with Saint James.
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men” I Timothy 2:1 KJV
If you believe that we should not intercede for each other, I suggest you take it up with Saint Paul.
Now, I know what you’ll say…that is talking about people who are alive, here on Earth…not dead people.
“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” II Corinthians 5:8 KJV
“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 KJV
Is it “never” or “die” that you can’t get your head around? Believers NEVER die. Christ has defeate death. If you prefer to believe that the faithful who have departed this world are “dead people”, you should take that up with Jesus Christ, because, if that is your position, He is the one that you are calling a liar.
“Demetrius, In my opinion and relationship with God your perceptions are so wrong. Its not for me to judge, but some of the things you say sound completely the opposite of what the bible teaches.”
And yet, Simon, you have not offered a single shred of Scripture for anything you have said – not one verse! Therefore, when you say that what I’m claiming sounds “so wrong”, you should point out that it is according to your opinion. You haven’t offered anything from the Bible to claim otherwise.
I am repeatedly impressed on this forum how Evangelicals, who supposedly believe in Sola Scriptura, rarely offer a single passage from the Holy Bible to support their claims. In fact, I almost never see it. You have attacked my beliefs and called into doubt my faith because you claim it is not based in Scripture. Yet, I have offered many passages from God’s holy word, and you have offered not one.
By the way, Simon, they are not my personal “perceptions”. Such an Protestant/Evangelical thing to say. In Orthodoxy, we don’t get to make up our own religion to follow. We’re part of a community, not a bunch of individuals doing our own thing. They are the teachings of the ancient Church passed down through 2,000 years from the Apostles.
“God is not going to favour someone more for asking Mary or saints to pray for them than if someone prays to God directly in the name of Jesus.”
Actually, Simon, what God isn’t going to favor is the sin of pride, the sin that instead of putting oneself dead last at the bottom of the heap demands to be equal with everyone else.
“And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.” Mark 9:35 KJV
If you think that God is going to favor someone who spends their time arguing how they are equally with God’s mother or the martyrs, again, reread the above, slowly, and then take it up with Jesus.
Finally, I am amused at how you refer to Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ, and not the Mother of God. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ was God, and that his human and divine natures existed without confusion or division?
“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” James 5:17 KJV
Yes we should do this, as friends and all together, this verse did not mention anything about the saints in heaven.
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men” I Timothy 2:1 KJV
Neither does this. Intercessions, giving of thanks, we all do this – be made for all men~
“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 KJV
Is it “never” or “die” that you can’t get your head around? Believers NEVER die. Christ has defeate death. If you prefer to believe that the faithful who have departed this world are “dead people”, you should take that up with Jesus Christ, because, if that is your position, He is the one that you are calling a liar.
In this verse John is talking about christians who believed and NEVER die refers to having the chance to be with Jesus, and GOD, together forever.
and lastly,
you quote:
“And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.” Mark 9:35 KJV
If you think that God is going to favor someone who spends their time arguing how they are equally with God’s mother or the martyrs, again, reread the above, slowly, and then take it up with Jesus.
Finally, I am amused at how you refer to Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ, and not the Mother of God. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ was God, and that his human and divine natures existed without confusion or division?
This is very funny, since this verse is true, Mary or the martyrs are all the same with all HUMANS, only jesus is of DIVINE origin, he didnt have a mortal host, his was a holy birth with the host body of Mary.
When you write things like that – Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ, and not the mother of God, it just shows how much you adore Mary, or revere her and think that she stands above ALL. Which means to say you think she is of a higher level than all mortals. You are amused, because you blindly follow the Catholic teachings without questioning it, even when worms and maggots are found out of it, not by my thoughts but by what has transpired over the news and actual facts.
NOT TRUE. Catholics. some of you has been so brainwashed by this organization you just skip and ignore much of what God wanted. You want verses ? I give you verses.
One of the great wonders of the world to me is how anyone could claim to be a Catholic and still believe the Bible is God’s Word. Even the Catholic Douay version of the Bible condemns the Catholic faith repeatedly. The honest truth is that Catholics have been brainwashed to accept the traditional teachings of the Vatican as superior to whatever the Word of God actually says.
Jesus plainly condemned placing the traditions of religion over the Word of God (Mark 7:6-13). Psalm 118:8 admonishes, “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” I’ll give you several examples of how the Catholic religion contradicts the Bible, placing man’s tradition over God’s Word.
“Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols” -Psalm 97:7
There is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible leading Christians to recognize Mary, adore Mary, or talk to Mary. Although most Catholics deny worshipping Mary, a picture is worth 1,000 words.
Just look up the internet, or head over to many catholic churches, especially in Europe side and you shall see.
The Vatican II Council and the New Catholic Catechism reaffirmed that Mary is the sinless Mother of God, that she ascended bodily to Glory (i.e., the Assumption of Mary) and was crowned as the Queen of Heaven, that she can hear and answer prayer. Of course, no such teachings are found ANYWHERE in the Bible. Mary is NOT the queen of heaven, she did NOT ascend bodily, and Mary certainly is NOT sinless! The mother of Jesus was a sinner! How can anyone on earth DECLARE someone else SINLESS??? This is blasphemous as only GOD himself can do so, and im sorry to disappoint you but this is fact, the Catholic Church always do this kind of things including creating their own truths, talk about protestants rebelling!
Where in the world did anyone ever get the twisted idea that Mary was sinless? No such teaching is taught in the Word of God. The Bible is clear in Romans 3:23 … “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” That includes Mary! The ONLY sinless being who ever walked this earth was the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15).
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” -Exodus 20:4,5
This verse is beauty. Truth. And enough to smack a thousand catholics with even what’s right in their head to wake up. This verse alone explains what many of you Catholics are doing. Notice i never say ALL Catholics, so if you arent, don’t take offense. Likeness of thing that is in heaven, including Mary, and the saints, and all the angels, and is it not that you drop to your knees and pray THROUGH them? Do not try to twist it around by saying you are only praying and asking for them to pray just like it is with us humans on earth doing it bla bla bla….IT IS WHAT you are doing. FACE IT.
Again, there is NOTHING taught in the Bible about praying a Rosary, counting beads, etc. In fact, Jesus condemned vain repetitions, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking” (Matthew 6:7). So why do Catholics disobey God? The Catholic Rosary is largely a prayer to Mary. The Rosary is blasphemy! Though Catholics like to point out that they are not praying to Mary, the 2nd of the ten commandments clearly prohibits and warns us NOT to BOW DOWN to any graven image. God in the 2nd commandment even goes as far as to warn us against bowing down to the likeness of anything in HEAVEN OR EARTH.
Your poweful and one the the greatest EXEMPLAR of Catholic Church – Pope John Paul II is a great Mary lover. In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the Pope testifies that his personal devotion to Mary was developed at Marian sites such as Jasna Gora (home of the Black Madonna) in his homeland of Poland (Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 220). The Pope has “Totus Tuus” (All Yours) embroidered on his papal garments, designating his “abandonment to Mary” (Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 215).
After the Pope was shot during an assassination attempt in May 1981, he attributed his subsequent recovery to Mary, and it was at shrines such as Jasna Gora and Fatima that he has expressed his thankfulness to the “Queen of Heaven.” He prays to Mary daily. This is an abomination unto the Lord. Please please wake up guys.
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” -Isaiah 42:8
Lord is talking about all kinds of Graven images including the countless statues of angels and MARY. its always MARY MARY MARY in the hearts of Catholics. That is seriously…..The conviction is so strong in our hearts what is going on, thats why many god believers and christians say out their defense but without scriptures. But i have provided many scriptures verses for you to fight, if you still want. It is not about pride, Brothers and sisters, we are all one. Just admit that this religion has some loopholes, some issues, examine it in detail and then when you do, come out and defend or if not, join the christian ranks for we only follow the one God an Christ only.
And alot of Catholics actually do not follow the bible, rather they follow their priests. Even the Catholic Bible states in Matthew 23:8-11, “But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.” Simply stated, the Bible condemns allowing ministers to come between us and God.
U wanna say Oh Christianity is so divided and they are so confused?
well let me show u here, how the Catholic church has CHANGED its DOGMA over the years~ http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm
You need Christianity friend, NOT churchianity.
—
Shino Ling
Creative Director
Dreadjim Studio
Jim…or Shino???…
As I have stated several times, I am an Orthodox christian. I am not a Roman Catholic. I am not sure how many more times I need to state this. There are several teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that I disagree with. Again, not sure how many more times I can state this very clearly for you. Therefore, your accusation that I am brainwashed by the Roman Catholic faith and find no fault in it is nonsensical. Seriously, slow down, breath a little, and think about what you are writing. For long stretches, your rant makes no sense.
Neither the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches worship Mary, the angels, or any saint. In a spirit of humility, we show honor and respect to people who have been loved and elevated by God. You will never be able to produce a single passage from Scripture commanding us not to do this.
I presented the logical doctrinal foundation for why we venerate the saints and pray for their intercessions. I presented the Biblical passages supporting this ancient practice. You almost completely ignored them. I know that you don’t have a good response, because the Scriptures are clearly not on your side, but at least try. You offered your personal interpretation of those passages…I think…but you didn’t offer a single Bible passage showing why you think they are wrong, and you barely offered a counter to any of my arguments. All you wrote were emotionally charged statements that attack beliefs and practices that don’t actually exist.
When we pray to saints, we are asking to pray to God for us, to act as intercessors before God’s throne. That is it. We are not making them into mini-gods. There is only one God, and he has commanded us to intercede for each other. I don’t know why this is such a hard thing for you guys, except that you are making it into something that it is not.
The Roman Catholic Church did not elevate Mary. God did. Open your Bible and read it. What part of “blessed among women” and “all generations shall call me blessed” don’t you get? If you want to tear Mary down, proceed with caution, for God is the One who lifted her up. Why are you so determined to go against God’s will and tear her down. Do you honestly think that the Lord who gave us the commandment to honor our mothers will take this lightly?
Jesus condemned placing human tradition over God’s word. The key here is on human traditions. For example, Sola Scriptura is a human tradition. It is found nowhere in Scripture or the Apostolic traditions. The Reformers made it up. The same Bible tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 that we are to hold to both holy tradition and the Bible. You are making an error that goes against this verse of Scripture when you lump all tradition into one single category.
Jesus condemned vain repetition. He did not condemn repetition in prayer. He is saying that if your prayers are vain, you can repeat them all you want, it isn’t going to help you. If you think that Jesus did not pray written prayers, and that some of them were repetitious, you don’t know anything about the Jewish liturgical religion in which Jesus was raised.
You presented several verses of Scripture from the Old Testament condemning graven images. If interpreted within context, these passages are talking about pagan idols. The proof? The same God that gave us these commandments directed the Israelites to decorate the temple with graven images and icons. That is also in the Old Testament. There is no confusion or contradiction in God. He is forbidding the worship of idols, not the use of images in proper worship.
I already presented to you, using Biblical evidence, how your interpretation of “call no man father” is flawed and incorrect. You chose to totally ignore the evidence that I presented.
I perceive a real double-standard with you, Jim…or Shino. You don’t want to acknowledge any Scripture that goes against your traditions. You don’t want to read the Scriptures that don’t support your beliefs. You gloss over them and ignore them. For example, the Bible passages supporting the existence of holy objects. I bet you don’t even know what those are. If they were pointed out to you, you would ignore them completely. I challenge you to address the arguments and Biblical evidence that I have submitted…instead of just falling back on tired, old, empty accusations that have no merit or substance and are based in untruth.
Demetrius,
Lol Thanks for the humour, a lot of what you said made me laugh, It amuses me how delusional some catholic people can be.
I notice your distaste for anyone Evangelical, or who isn’t of catholic’s views and beliefs, which is a bit hypocrital as you declare me of having “sinful pride”
I think you need to look in the mirror.
“He without sin, shall cast the first stone”
I’m simply going to tell you a few TRUTHS, BACKED UP WITH PLENTY OF SCRIPTURE FOR YOU.
The Catholic church maybe the longest standing church but what todays catholic church practices is nothing like how it was 2000 years ago. Todays Catholic church make it up as they go along and is filled with arrogant people who believe they are the better than everyone else because of how big the catholic fad is across the world.
Jesus said:
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:13-14
According to Jesus, the masses willingly accept false religious systems that lead to destruction, while few find true salvation that leads to heaven.
When Jesus walked the earth, a small minority followed Him. Most rejected his teachings and remained in the well established, socially accepted religions. In other words, they rejected the truth so they could keep their religious traditions. Jesus spoke the following words to those who did this:
“…Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:9
While Jesus was preaching, one listener who began to comprehend this truth asked Jesus:
“Lord, are there few that be saved? And he (Jesus) said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” Luke 13:23-24
When Jesus taught his disciples to go out and preach the gospel, he said:
“The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;”Matthew 9:37
In other words, most people are lost and need a Savior, but few have the truth to go and tell them.
Conclusion:
Every Catholic doctrine has violated God’s
Word. Yet millions of Catholics ignore God’s instructions and continue following the traditions of men, claiming to be right because they are in a religious majority. Jesus warns:
“…whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man… And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man…” Matthew 7:24, 26
Does God consider you a wise or foolish person? If you believe you can ignore God’s commands because you are in a religious majority, you need to read Matthew 7:24-26 again.
Jesus gives another warning to the majority who have disregarded God’s Word and are counting on earning their salvation through good works:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22-23
How is it that so many Catholics can call Jesus their Lord, yet totally disregard His instructions? Jesus asked that very same question in His Word:
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” Luke 6:46
You can ignore this question now, but what will you say when Jesus asks you the same question in person when you die and stand before Him for judgment?
Catholicism has its roots in Christianity, but it has long departed from its origins. Such a departure was predicted by the apostle Paul.
“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth” (I Timothy 4:1-3).
While Paul’s prophecy is not limited to the Catholic church, it is true that the Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy from marrying and they have long practiced the abstaining from meat on Fridays during the Lental season.
The fundamental difference between Christianity and Catholicism is the view of the authority of the Scriptures. Catholics, at least in the hierarchy, believe that authority rests in the church. The Scriptures are seen as just one of many sources to be used, but the decision for any practice is decided by the Catholic church. This view then explains the gradual evolution of Catholic doctrine over the years.
Forgiveness of sins comes by confessing those sins to a priest. The priest then assigns acts of penance, which when completed will remove the consequences of those sins.
The Bible teaches us to confess our sins before God:
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (I John 1:9).
And, we must be willing to confess our faults to each other.
“Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16).
But nowhere does the Bible teach that confession must be made to a select group of individuals before forgiveness is granted. In reality, forgiveness of sins can only be granted by God; man cannot grant forgiveness of sins. The best that fellow Christians can do is to plead to God on a brother’s behalf that his sins might be blotted out.
This brings up another point as well. In Christianity there is no separation of priests from laity as all Christians are priests. “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy” (I Peter 2:9-10).
Past saints, especially Mary, are venerated. Catholics believe they serve as mediators between the living and God.
To focus the mind, Catholics make numerous images of those to whom they will be praying. All Catholics deny that these images are idols. They do not believe that the saint is physically there. Yet, it is really a matter of semantics. Idol worshipers also claim that their idols are merely representations and not the real thing.
The fact is that many Catholics take their images and saints to a superstitious level. A statue of Mary or St. Joseph is supposed to keep your house in good order. Medallions of St. Christopher is supposed to prevent injuries. Other than terminology, how does the veneration of saints differ from idolatry?
The Bible clearly teaches that worship and prayers are only to be directed toward God.
In Luke 9:32-35 the disciples wanted to offer worship to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, but God told them that they were only to honor Jesus. “You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Luke 4:8).
Hence, Peter refused to have anyone bow before him. “As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” (Acts 10:25-26).
Even angels refused worship. “And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!” (Revelation 19:10; see also Revelation 22:8-9).
As I mentioned before, the departure of the Catholic Church from the teachings in the Bible leaves a large number of differences. Apologists for Catholicism do not attempt explain away those differences. Instead, they will argue for the right of the Catholic Church to modify the doctrine of Christ to suit their purpose.
It doesn’t seem to matter that they are not practicing the religion found in the Scriptures because they believe they have evolved Christianity into a new and better religion. And since change is accepted by the Catholic Church, you find continual disagreement over a wide variety of issues.
Today there are Catholics calling for the acceptance of abortion, priest marrying, and women being allowed to enter the priesthood. When these issues are eventually accepted, others will take their place and the departure from the truth will continue.
Is it a sin to refer to Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ our lord and saviour? Can you back that up with scripture please because I fail to see the relevance of the reference. I know who Mary is and I know who God is.
I’m not expecting God to favour anyone, thats where I disagree with catholics. I believe God will treat and judge everyone equally according to their works and how they’ve followed the bible and walked in the footsteps of Jesus.
Do you believe that Catholics priests will be favoured more than the members of the church? Just a question, because I genuinely don’t know, and as an Evangalist I can admit to things that I don’t know rather than be closed minded and believe I know everything.
Simon,
I’m glad I could make you laught, but I would be very careful about that. These are not laughing matters.
I made it very clear in my post that I am not a Roman Catholic. I am an Eastern Orthodox christian. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church split in AD 1054. We happen to disagree with the Roman Catholics on several important issues. However, we also have similar beliefs because we are both ancient churches and more closely linked to the practices of the ancient church.
You have raised several points. I will not address several of them because they are ridiculous on their face. I will try to present a response to those that I perceive we may be able to reach some common ground on.
First, I’m going to address your claim of my disparaging of Evangelicals.
“I notice your distaste for anyone Evangelical, or who isn’t of catholic’s views and beliefs, which is a bit hypocrital as you declare me of having “sinful pride” I think you need to look in the mirror.”
Firstly, I did not accuse you of committing the sin of pride. I have no right to judge you; God will do that. What I said is that the errors of Evangelicalism are, in my view, based on the sin of pride. That statement is not directed at any individual.
It is amazing how many times I have seen Evangelicals on this forum spend their energy trying to argue why they are equal to the Virgin Mary. We’re talking about the only woman from all of humanity who God chose to bear his Son. She was called “blessed among women” and prophesied that all generations would call her blessed. It astounds me – and frightens me – how many Evangelicals would lift themselves up (when Scripture advises us to do the opposite) by claiming that there is nothing special about this holy woman. This is nothing more than pride, and outrageously blasphemous pride at that.
I grew up in a Protestant family, and I know from experience that individual pride is at the heart of so many problems with the Evangelical denominations. I’ve seen people jump around from church to church until they find the one that suits their personal beliefs. I have seen pastors fired because they said things that rubbed people the wrong way or whole churches split up over personality issues. Orthodox parishes have their flaws, as we are all sinners, but questioning the teachings of the Church and trying to make them suit individual tastes is absolutely NEVER one of those problems. We don’t get to make up what we believe or interpret the Bible as individuals.
I don’t have a distaste for Evangelical people. Most of my family are Evangelicals. Many Evangelicals are sincere individuals who love God, trust in Christ, and are striving to do his will. However, I am not going to shy away one bit in standing up for the Truth, whether you find it funny or not.
Evangelicals almost always have no idea what they are talking about when they start casting stones. I know this for a fact because I used to be one, and would regularly make claims against non-Evangelicals that I know now were based in ignorance. I was taught that Catholics worship Mary, and I would deride my Catholic friends for that. Now, I ask Christ’s foregiveness for that because it is untrue. Catholics do not worship Mary or any saint.
Most Evangelical claims or objections are based on ignorance or the actual teachings. For example, Evangelicals will see an Orthodox christian make a bow or prostration before an icon, and they will accuse that individual of worshipping images. I used to be that way when I was a Protestant. That is incredibly ignorant. Just because you are from a western culture in the 21st Century, you arrogantly demand that all practices strictly conform to your way of doing things, or else you slander the individuals involved as being idolators. This is not charity. You have no idea of the doctrinal reasoning for why other people do what they do – you don’t understand the actual teachings underpinning the the outward practices – but you all, or many of you, consider yourself sufficiently expert to lecture people on how they should worship. If you are not going to take the time to find out what people believe and why, and how that shapes their practice, you should probably restrain from commenting.
My proof of this? Very rarely will you see a Protestant address the actual doctrinal positions of Orthodox an Roman Catholic people. Consider your last post, as an example. Not one argument you presented, and not a single Scripture that you included, addressed the actual teachings of Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Several times on this forum, I have presented what and why we believe, and the Scriptural foundation for it. Most Evangelicals, including you, won’t go anywhere near it. It is an attack on the outward appearance, not the actual teachings. It is clear for someone in the Church that you are extremely ignorant of what we actually teach and believe.
My challenge to any Evangelical who wants to throw stones at the Roman Catholics is to first educate yourself about what they actually teach, and then break it down piece by piece and show using the Scriptures why those teachings are wrong. You won’t be able to do it, and I think you know it, which is why most of you rarely make the effort. It will always revert back to empty accusations based on ignorance.
So, here we go…
You made a point that many religious people are not going to get into Heaven, and you provided the Scriptures to back it up. None of this contradicts our teachings (they contradict what you have been falsely led to believe we teach, but, let’s face it, you have no real idea what we teach). However, then you go way off the reservation in how you apply those Scriptures.
Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholics also, have no disagreement with what you said. There are plenty of people in Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and also in Evangelicalism, who follow all the external practices who aren’t going to go to Heaven. There are plenty of priests, patriarchs, monastics, and popes…and Evangelical preachers… who are going to be very disappointed on the day of judgement. God knows what is in every heart, and God will reward accordingly.
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” John 15:6 KJV
We believe that this is talking about people in the Church. Anyone who is an Orthodox person who tells you that they are automatically guaranteed to go to Heaven because they are part of a religious group and goes along with all the outside practices doesn’t know what they’re Church teaches them.
You then made some inflammatory statements about how Roman Catholics have departed from the true faith and don’t follow Christ’s commandements. A Roman Catholic could easily make the same argument against you, using the exact same Bible passages. There is nothing there that supports any of your accusations, and I’m not going to address those statements because they’re just slanderous, and you didn’t present any evidence to back them up. Simon, you seem to have a real “distaste” for Catholics.
Your next point, you suggest that the Roman Catholic Church considers itself to be above Scripture. That is laughable. The Church of Rome teaches the same thing about the Bible that the Orthodox Church teaches. The Bible is the inerrant, verbally inspired Word of God. Anyone who goes against Scripture is not doing God’s will.
However, here is where we disagree with you. The Bible must be interpreted. It doesn’t interpret itself. Evidence? Sit 10 Evangelicals in a room, let them read the same Scripture, and you are likely to get 10 different interpretations. That cannot be of God. The Church – not the individual – has the right to interpret the Bible. The Church, according to the Bible, is the foundation and pillar of the Truth (I Timothy 3:15). It was the Church that wrote, assembled, and canonized the Scriptures, and it is the Church alone that is to interpret them.
Furthermore, we don’t believe Sola Scriptura because nowhere in God’s word is Sola Scriptura taught. If you believe that nothing can be believed or practiced that is not written in Scripture, then you cannot believe Sola Scriptura. It is a self-destroying argument. Nowhere does the Bible say that only what is written in Scripture can be believed. Sola Scriptura is a logical absurdity because it contradicts itself. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you must actually reject Sola Scriptura because it isn’t taught in the Bible. There is no confusion in God (1 Corinthians 14:33), so how can a teaching that is logically impossible be from the Holy Spirit.
Finally, we hold to the practice of the ancient Church – which didn’t even have a full Bible for the first few centuries – as expressed by Saint Paul. We believe in both the Bible and Holy Tradition because that is what the Bible teaches us to do (II Thessalonians 2:15). What was good for the Thassalonians is equally as good for us today. If you disagree, prove otherwise.
Your next point…
I don’t know how many more times, or in what different way I can say it, to get it through to you. I know you are going to believe what you want, but we do not – EVER – worship the Virgin Mary or the saints. Ever.
We honor them, and we ask them to intercede for us to God. We also ask each other for intercessions, but we believe that those who are actually standing before God’s throne are very powerful intercessors.
I have presented the reasoning for this many times on this forum (not going to type it all out again). If you disagree, and you can find Biblical evidence to support your position, please address the actual teachings one by one. Don’t make empty accusations. Argue against the actual teachings – not your flawed interpretation of what those teachings are.
The passage from Luke 4 has been taken completely out of all context. In fact, it is so blatantly out of context that I am wondering what you are up to. Jesus is talking to Satan, who is tempting him to worship him. Jesus is pointing out that only God can be worshipped. As I already pointed out, our teachings in no way violate this.
If you are equating Orthodox veneration of the saints to worship of the Devil, you have majorly fallen off the wagon.
We do not worship any human being or angel. No created thing, which includes all of mankind and all the angels, can be worshipped, only God. However, we believe that we are united in the Holy Spirit with all Christians who have ever lived, including those in Heaven, and we ask them to pray for us. We also pray directly to God. In fact, for Orthodox, that is the vast majority of our prayers.
Is it a sin to refer to Mary as the mother of Jesus?
Absolutely not. I never said it was. She was the mother of Jesus Christ. I just wonder why you won’t call her the Mother of God.
Finally, somewhere in there you questioned the validity of the priesthood. I am not going to speak for the Roman Catholics on this one, as I’m not sure what their teachings are. If I don’t fully understand what someone else believes, I refrain from from telling them why they are wrong. I can tell you that the Orthodox Church believes that all Christians are part of a royal priesthood, with Christ as its Head. However, we believe in Apostolic Succession, and we believe that priests (presbyters) are part of the hierarchy of the Church established in Acts. This is completley consistent with what archeaology and secular history has revealed to us about the practices of ancient Christianity.
As far as confession, again, not sure what the Roman Catholics believe. We have confession to a priest as a sacrament. However, we do not under any circumstances believe that the priest is forgiving the sin or absolving the repentant person of their sins. The purpose of confession is to confess your sins to another Christian, in this case a spiritual leader, and have them pray for you. In the sacrament of confession, the priest hears the confession, offers counseling or advice on overcoming that sin, and then prayers for that person. It is face-to-face, and usually in a worship service with the entire community assembled. At no time do they forgive the person or absolve them – they ask God to. It is in complete agreement with Scriptural guidance to confess our sins to each other (not just directly to God) and to pray for each other. We do not believer, as some Protestants have falsely accused, that sins are only forgiven through the sacrament of confession. We are encouraged to confess directly to God every day and ask for His foregiveness. However, we are encouraged to go to confession to help us in our struggle.
Simon,
I realized that I didn’t address this question, with regard to the veneration of the saints.
” Other than terminology, how does the veneration of saints differ from idolatry?”
Protestants do not have a tradition of veneration, so it is natural that this doesn’t make sense to you. However, just because it is not part of your tradition or practice, and beyond your understanding, doesn’t mean that it is idolatry.
Acts of veneration are honorific acts, acts intended to show love, honor, and respect.
A soldier saluting the flag is an act of veneration.
A subject bowing before a monarch is an act of veneration of the crown.
A child in a Middle Eastern culture that kisses the hand of their grandparents or a beloved elderly relative, as is a custom in that part of the world, is making an honorific act.
It could be argued that a person who carries the picture of a loved on and occassionally kisses the image is venerating that person…showing affection, love, and respect.
None of these acts are idolatrous. None of them are acts of worship.
When a Christian makes a bow or other honorific act before a person of God, they are not worshipping that person. They are honoring them as a person of God. If the act is done before a physical representation of that person, either an icon (in the case of the Orthodox and Roman Catholics) or a statue (in the case of the Roman Catholics), the honor is offered to the person depicted rather than the material object that represents that person.
In no way are they being held up as a deity or some kind of mini-god. Furthermore, in no way is the material itself being worshipped.
In Joshua 5:13-15, the Archangel Michael appears to Joshua. Joshua falls on his face in prostration before the angel. Michael never tells him to stand up. Why? Joshua was not worshipping Michael. He was showing respect and honor to an angel of the Lord, the Captain of God’s heavenly army. This is veneration. There is nothing to indicate that what Joshua did was wrong. If Michael had perceived for one second that it was a worshipful act, he would have commanded Joshua to stop dishonoring God.
In Revelation 3:7-9, God promises that he will cause unbelievers to fall before the feet of the Bishop of the Church of Philadelphia. This is an honorific act, not worship. God says that he will cause them to honor this person because “I have loved thee”.
We honor and respect – with physical acts of humility – angels and those who are loved of God and through their lives show that they are holy people.
I have presented two passages of Scripture to support this and to show that it is completely consistent with what is taught in the Bible.
Can we at least agree on this …
36 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:36-40) NIV
Joseph,
Of Course we can always agree with scripture. The problem arises due to Interpretation of Scripture.
Simon and Demetrius
Your “exchanges” are fantastic! Keep it going. If only I knew who was Right!
The catholic church completely ignores Deuteronomy 18:11 which tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”
Jeannett,
The deuteronomy passage refers to DIVINIATION. Consulting the dead in order to get occult knowledge. That is a far cry from requesting intercessory prayer.
No offense but consulting the dead means~consulting the dead, whether it is to get occult knowledge or to request intercessory prayer.
The bible has told us many times in the bible to pray to lord, and only through his son Jesus Christ. Have u read any phrase that said to pray to Mary? or to pray THROUGH Mary to seek the lord? Or has Mary in the bible stated that she is to be seek and prayed to?
The answer is a simple No. The lord has placed no emphasis on Mary, or any of the angels that we should pray to, but instead through Christ.
Stop denying this logic and fact.
Plus many Catholic churches have names of Church of Mary, Church of St Gabriel and their churches have Mary statues in them, Outside, and around~~ what is this? That the Lord’s Son and only one worthy for us to worship is ignored so blatantly?
Consulting the DEAD means consulting the DEAD! Jesus Christ Is not DEAD, He resurrected and we are praying to a LIVE GOD, not Mary, Please find passages which implies that we are, able, can pray through saints and Mary for me in the Bible thanks.
Plus this crap of making humans SAINTS in the world, who are Anyone to judge them worthy of being a DIVINE SAINT? THAT WE CAN PRAY THROUGH when they are dead? St Petersburg? St Arvinda Gucci? Doesn’t make any sense. No human can judge anyone worthy to be saints unless God himself appeared and showed the world that they are so. All these canonizing , making ppl saints and then Catholics pray through THEM?! please.
The Saints are not dead. They are alive. The idea that all religious truth must be found in scripture is a tradition of men started by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago. It is not to be found anywhere in scripture.
Can a catholic please tell me, if all religious truth cant be found through scripture then where are you finding your “religious truth” from? If something aint in scripture does that mean u can just make things up? Because you practice things that aint in scripture, i dont understand where your getting your practice from? As this is a classic response many catholics use when they are unable to answer a question presentented to them with facts and scripture to back it up.
Well I say AMEN to that, seriously Catholics believe that ALL religious truth does not have to be found in the Bible? Seriously? WOW.
So it would be alright then for humans(not only the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church) to start naming saints and what not and start praying “through” them? this logic is so scary.
So Does it mean if the bible does not say something like~ I honor my father~ i think he is the best saint i ever met~ Can I “honor” him as a saint, and then from future onwards, I just pray to my father and ask him to pray for me?~~ isnt that …weird? Or why do I need to pray to Mary to pray to god for me? Because her words have more power?! Or i am unworthy? Mary is closer to God so Its better to ask Mary to pray for me>?
Why wouldnt I just pray to God, and Jesus ?! Why go through the trouble to erect Mary statues and all the saints, and then pray through them? does it make sense to u>? well I guess so….To me, and to the rest of unbelievers , you just confuse and make everything complicated~ and thats hard for us to save the new people and the unbelievers….
Its just like the Pharisees, self-righteousness…through this Roman-stylized way of church structure and thinking…
Jim,
If your father, a very godly man, died you could ask him to pray for you. We ask for the intercessory prayers of the Saints, declared by the Church, b/c their lives have been examined by the Church and found to be exemplary (not sinless). We can and do pray to God. And we can and do ask for intercessory prayer from our brothers and sisters in Christ who are alive on Earth or Heaven.
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus 2000 years ago and it is ONE. The disunity caused by separation from His Church and the confusing array of doctrines is in fact what complicates the Gospel, not the beliefs and structure of the Catholic Church. We have a Catechism which clearly declares what we believe. No other Protestant Church has this b/c if any one Protestant Church actually declared ALL that they believed many of their members would leave.
Protestant Churches stay together by declaring only the fewest doctrines they can so that no one gets mad and leaves or refuses to join. The members of those churches believe a lot more doctrine than what is in their statement of faith but there is a lot of disunity among the members on many other issues.
I hear what your saying, but the Bible is the Word of God! Thats our guide to how to live righteously and please God. If God wanted us to do other practices then why would it not be in his holy word? Why would he leave certain things out? and where would people find out about these practices if they arnt written down in Gods word?
I believe if God wanted us to do other practices then he would’ve said, simple as that. He gave us his word and thats what I live by.
John 1 says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In doesn’t mention anything about any other practice being with God. Just the word.
By practicing other practices that is not in the word, you are adding to Gods word which no one has the authority to do except for God.
GODS WORD IS COMPLETE AND TRUE! So any additional practices would render Gods word incomplete.
Simon,
Yes the Bible is the Word of God. But, did you know there was no New Testament for 400 years after Jesus was born? Yes, the documents that would eventually be canonized as the New Testament were floating around the ancient world along with many other writings; some good some heretical. And yet, Christianity was spread throughout the world without a NT. This was possible b/c the teachings of the Apostles were carefully preserved and taught. Some of these teachings got written down and canonized. Some of it was in oral form for many years, and eventually also got written down but not canonized.
For Catholics we believe and follow all of the teaching of the Apostles, both written and oral just like St. Paul exhorted us to do.
I Cor 11: 2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word of mouth, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
The Bible no where asserts that all Christian Truth is to be found in the Scripture alone. That is a Tradition of Men begun by Martin Luther. The Word of John 1 is not Scripture it is Jesus. And Jesus did not write one thing! Why not if written words were the ONLY thing to be believed? These writings that contain the once oral teachings of the Apostles are easy to access. But Protestants NEVER hear anything about them because they prove that the early Church was very Catholic in belief and practice. It was absolutely NOT Protestant. If it was I would still be Protestant.
The Faith of the Early Fathers is a collection of the most quoted writings. The first volume goes up only to the year 380AD. All written before the NT was canonized. Just get that one and start reading. You will see that the first Christians were Catholic and not Protestant.
dude…of cos they were Catholic, the emperor founded the organization and allowed the religion, if not, All christians would have been persecuted by the Roman Pagans and those who do not believe in Christ. By the Law and the power of the Emperor he made Christianity a proper religion.
And Protestants came later, because some of the christians could not agree with what the Catholic Church was doing. Now do you see why Protestants came later? This will be good if people read the History and study it. Protestants were also persecuted by CAtholics at first because they felt threatened…
But just because the Christians were named Catholics so all have to follow them? Christ DIDNT FOUND Roman CATHOLICS , the emperor did….
Christianity itself is the true thing.
@ History needs some reading: History DOES need some reading again. The proper name “Catholic” wasn’t invented by Emperor Constantine. Already in the NT, there were separatists like the heretics, apostates and schismists. The faithful Christians needed to be able to distinguish the authentic church of Christ from all the pretenders. Thus we find this:
“And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is — for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’ — nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, AD 315-386, Catechetical Lecture 18).
2000 years is a long history of Christianity. But we can still know that the earliest extant written record of the usage of the term “Catholic” was in AD 107 when St. ignatius of Antioch wrote the letter to the Smyrnaeans. It was also used by St. Ignatius as such matter-of-factly that we can safely deduce that the term “Catholic” was already prevalent in the apostolic age.
As far as the term “Roman Catholicism” is concerned, it was simply a device of Anglicanism to promote the “branch theory” in the 17th Century. The separate term “Roman Church” refers properly to the diocese of Rome in Italy.
Simon,
You have asked a good question. The Catholic Church does not make anything up. Our beliefs neither pose a problem with any facts that I know of nor do they contradict or oppose scripture. Our beliefs and our interpretation of scripture DO, however, contradict Protestant interpretation of scripture. We are not concerned about these contradictions because Jesus founded the Catholic Church. All the non Catholic Christian denominations were founded by men, and most of them are 500 years old or less. Our church is 2000 years old.
And, our beliefs have been in existence for 2000 years because Jesus taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught others what Jesus had taught them. The apostles wrote some of these teachings down and these became the books of the New Testament. The rest of what Jesus taught the Apostles became what we call Sacred Tradition. When the Catholic Church talks about Tradition we mean nothing less than the teaching of the Apostles.
The Scripture tells us that everything Jesus did could not be written down b/c the world could not contain the books.
And St. Paul exhorts Christians to cling to the Traditions they were taught by him both written and oral. And that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.
When the apostle Paul talked about traditions he was talking about communion and doctrine that the apostle taught. Rom. 6:1 Should we continue in sin… God forbid. The apostles wanted everyone to know that if the spirit of God is in you, that spirit will keep you from sinning if you let it.
Unless you are telling me that the spirit of God is not strong enough to keep you from sinning?
In other news:
Mary was in the upper room along with the other disciples waiting for the holy ghost to come. which means marry is on the same level as the other apostles and saints in the upper room.
Also there is only one intercessor between God and man and he is the “Man” Jesus Christ. He is the one who goes to God on our behalf. Mary cannot do anything for us. (Not to be rude) I hate to say it but praying to a dead woman sounds like idol worship.
Tell me this if Mary was so important then why did Jesus say, “who is my mother” (Matthew 12:48) If Mary was such an important person to pray to why would Jesus ignore her when she asked for him.
Luke 11:2 says when you pray say Father…
now I don’t know about you but I don’t see Mary’s name anywhere in this prayer. Why because your relationship is with you and the Father. The bible says come boldly to the throne of grace whereby you might obtain help in the time of trouble. So why are we going to another human?
Please don’t get offended but Mary cannot help us. Jesus said believe on him. He is the way. He is the truth. He is the life. Mary cannot help us. You have to give an account of the deeds in your flesh, so go to your heavenly father he is the only one who can help us.
Be Blessed
Dear James,
Tradition merely means, “that which is passed down to others”. St. Paul and the Apostles passed on to those who they evangelized the teachings of Jesus. At that time there was NO NEW TESTAMENT. All that was taught was technically Tradition. But St. Paul exhorted his readers to cling to the traditions he taught both written and oral. And St. John said all the books in the world could not contain all that Jesus did. So, it is without question that the New Testament contains some of what Jesus taught but not all. The Catholic Church does just what St. Paul said to do, cling to the Traditions both oral and written.
James, if what you say is true then intercessory prayer would be condemned. But in fact we are told to intercede for one another in James. Mary prays for us. Jesus mediates salvation through His death on the cross. Jesus does not “go to God”. He is God. Please see this post–>Can Mary Mediate and Intercede?
Mary cannot do anything for us in her own power but she can pray for us b/c she is not dead. She is alive in Heaven along with Jesus and all the other Saints. It is not idol worship. The Catholic Church condemns idolotry. Please see this post–>Another Protestant Tradition: Catholics worship Idols.
James, if Jesus ignored His mother then He would be guilty of sin by not honoring His mother. This is the problem with Protestant teaching. In their eagerness to denigrate Mary they accidently have Jesus sin. If you do not believe Jesus sinnned then your understanding of these passages must be modified. But you will lose verses that seem to dis Mary.
We go to ask for Mary and the prayers of the saints just like Protestant Christians have prayer chains and ask each other to pray for them. We also ask those heroic Christians who are alive in Heaven to pray for us. Do you condemn intercessory prayer?
Mary can not help us with her own power but only by her prayers and power of God.
I understand that catholics don’t pray to Mary or believe that she can answer prayers but where does it say in the Bible that Mary can hear our prayers and/or interceed for us?
And If your response is that everything/all spiritual truth can’t be found in the Bible then can you provide me with the source of where this tradition that has been passed down from the very first church?
And further more can you provide sources that evidences that God agrees, encourages and commands this?
Lastly I’m unclear whether catholics believe that Mary’s prayer for you is more powerful than anyone elses prayer for you? and if so why? as she is human just like you and me.
BREAD FROM HEAVEN: For some reason my response comment will not post. So I have responded to Simon–>Where is Prayer to Saints in History?
Is it really okay to say Mary is in heaven or that heroic saints are in heaven unless GOD has directly told you? Romans 10:6 “But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?'” (that is, to bring Christ down)”.
The truth is Jesus Christ himself, as he has declared “I am THE truth”. He does not says he is “a” truth.
I do not see it as fit that anyone here is debating with Catholics. The head of there “church” declares to everyone that he is the sole representative ot GOD here on earth. Could anything be more blasphemous? Could you be more lost then to believe anything more then faith in Jesus is needed for an amazing relationship with Christ and the Father? Such a teaching is not of the gospel, the good news Christ brought to earth.
In order for a person to be declared a Saint in the Catholic Church God does tell us by performing two miracles through the intercession of the would-be-saint after they have died. Both miracles are thoroughly investigated by scientists, doctors and whatever other specialist might be called for to verify that the miracle was truly supernatural and not just a coincidence, fraud, etc.
I guess you have been misinformed if you think that Catholics think Jesus is just “a truth”. And the rest of you statement about the Pope is just as misinformed. I would like you to investigate what the Church actually teaches about the Pope, Salvation, Saints, and Jesus Christ rather than listen to what mis-informed anti-Catholics say the Church teaches. Believe me they are entirely two different things. Here is an easy example. Popes and Saints are often excoriated with the revelation that they had children!!! …or children out of wedlock ( St. Augustine). The facts in these cases may be accurate but in the mouths of anti-Catholics the implication is that the Catholic Church condones fornication and even celebrates these sinners by declaring them Saints! And at my parish we have a Priest who has children too. In fact, we have had two priests with children at our parish.
What the anti-Catholic never mentions is that St. Augustines fathered his child BEFORE he was a Christian. The priests in my parish were married with children BEFORE they were ordained to the priesthood. One man’s wife divorced him and the other man’s wife died. Do you see how ugly and evil a half truth can be?
I do not mean to say that there are not or were not priests who sinned egregiously after ordination. We all know this is very true. But then, we never claimed to have a sinless priesthood, pope or bishops.
Make sure you get the Truth, the WHOLE Truth and nothing but the Truth. I was deceived for decades by the anti-Catholic Protestant teachings.
No offense to those who do not follow the Catholic faith, but to say Mary does not have any use to us and simply cannot help us in any way in crazy. If you think about it in simple terms, our faith is a simple one. The question for all of you non believers instead of saying “Why?” is “Why not?” Before limiting your sources of answers or simply refusing, go out there and seek it. Someone the other day who goes to a non denominational church asked me was “What is the truth?” Simple aswer : to find truth in anything, most esp. about God and Jesus Christ, go straight to the source and find it. You’ll be surprised as to what you’ll find out. Alot of the time the answers lie from where you first started. God bless you all, because I’ll be keeping you all in my prayers. ❤
YOU CATHOLICS . DON’T THINK THAT U ARE GOING TO HEAVEN.
Wow! Why not?
Jesus is the only way to God, not mary or any other saint no matter how great they seemed in their life times. Didn’t jesus say that he would raise all people on the last day(jhn 6:40)? So how can you pray(ask) mary to pray to God as if she is in his presence yet she’s dead!
Dear follower,
Well, it is really very simple. We do not believe Mary and the Saints are dead. We believe that our bodies die but our souls are eternal. Our souls will never die. After death our soul goes immediately to be judged. We are then sent to Heaven (by way of a purification, if necessary) or Hell. At the end of time Jesus will resurrect our bodies and they will once again be joined to our souls in Heaven or Hell.
Even Jesus said,
Matthew 22:32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Therefore we do believe that Mary and all the Saints are in the very presence of God and are able to intercede for us. I hope this helps you understand.
I found this thread by googling “why do catholics pray to Mary?” As I started reading the comments I found myself torn as to whether I believe it is right or wrong. Many of the arguments against it rang true and familiar from what I had learned in my upbringing. I was raised in an Independent Fundamental church. As a child I had great comfort in knowing that Jesus loved me and was always in my heart, I prayed and talked to him all of the time without any second thoughts, it was just natural. As I got older and started sitting through the pastor’s Sermons, God became scary, angry, and more and more distant through the preacher’s words and sometimes bulging neck veins. Looking back was a shift from excitement at the thought of one day being with God in heaven to fearing hell so much that one should believe, heed the words and laws of God if only as an escape from eternal damnation-especially the preaching of Revelations. The Love fell away. Mary was rarely spoken of, a mere mention, at Christmas in the story of Jesus’ birth. We had communion only once in a while and it was a source of tension because even when I felt my heart was right with God, I could feel the judgemental ‘eagle-eyes’ of my Dad and the congregation when I chose to partake. This tone of guilt and judgement eventually became normal and engrained when entering the church for years and I knew that I would not continue going when I was old enough to leave home. That was 22 years ago. To this day I do not pray to God. My innocent childhood image of Him as Pure Love had become so tainted by the feelings of unworthiness, guilt, shame, fear, and constant judgments both of myself, God, and by self righteous Christians of the congregation.There was no ‘confession’ or routine communion that might have helped counteract this shame with cleansing or purification. I want very much to find a church of any denomination that preaches of God’s love and mercy and a way to rewind back through the tainted layers to my childhood relationship with Jesus/God. I find myself floundering in this world and all of it’s horrific news and happenings without solid faith to cling to. Out of the clear blue I have felt very drawn to Mary, even with such vague knowledge of her- which is what led me here today. For some inexplicable reason Mary brings a sense of comfort, maybe it is the tender mothering aspect or the humaness of her and her not judging our hearts. I was looking into the Catholic faith and feeling a bit intimidated by all of the unfamiliar terminology and what feels like a rather strict ritualistic way of worshiping God. On many levels I find this aspect appealing and feel that my soul is need of these old sacred roots and rituals but I worry too that after time it could becomes less meaningful as it is so rigid and routine. After reading all I have read here today, I am left wondering if Catholics believe Mary would intercede prayers from anyone, of any faith if called upon or if they believ one must be Catholic in order to be heard. I would like to believe that Catholics would answer “Yes, anyone, anytime, for any reason” but I have a feeling that this will not be the case after reading the rules of whether or not Catholics and lutherans may partake in holy communion in the each other’s churchs….so many rules. For those who accuse catholics of Mary worship I hope you have learned as I have here that all catholic prayers are in the name of God, his Son, and Holy Spirit. I have a sympathy in my heart remembering this strong feeling of ‘judgement’ and self righteousness of others from my earlier years of church. I am so glad that I came here today. Both sides of this debate have equally caused a resonation and better understanding of what appeals to me about the Catholic beliefs about Mary and Holy Saints interceding our prayers. I realize that I have not really contributed to the debate but felt compelled to write after reaching the end of this very long and interesting thread. Thank you all. Wishing everyone peace in whichever path they choose.
Dear McNaughton,
In answer to your question about asking for Mary’s intercession. The answer is YES!! Anyone, anywhere, of any faith. She is the mother of all those who call on the name of Jesus. I got chills when you mentioned that you were somehow drawn to Mary. She always points us to her Son. I did not experience as harsh and judgmental a Protestantism as you did but I have found that the Catholic Church is much more merciful and loving. She knows our weaknesses and imperfections and deals in the reality of human nature while still leading us higher and deeper into faith with the sacraments and prayers.
Protestants, being sola scriptura, have no way of giving themselves or others mercy unless they can justify it by scriptures. Any religion can have harsh and judgmental people. I am so sad at the loss of your childhood love and joy in Christ. He is definitely calling you to a journey of faith. Do not rush. Keep praying for light and learning. Kyrie Eleison.
Mary did not acquire any divinity, just because she gave birth to Jesus. Catholics need to read the Bible, and let the Holy Spirit guide them to know the truth. No man can change a person’s belief. In the early days the Catholic Church did not want the common man to read the Bible, so that they could interpret the Bible according to their need. Catholics need to understand that it is not important to view what the Church says or the Pope says; it has to be aligned with the Word of God. Nobody should be following the Church or a preacher blindly.
Dear Reuben,
We totally agree. Mary is only a human person. Anti-Catholic propaganda misinforms many Protestants that we think she is divine and that we worship her. But this is a lie.
A Catholic who goes to mass every Sunday will hear nearly the whole Bible in three years. And we do read the Bible as well.
It is not true that the Catholic Church did not want the lay people to read the Bible in the early days of the Church. Once again you have been misinformed. In the early days of the Church:
1) Most people could not read.
-So the priest read the scriptures to the people. Which is still done
even though most people can now read and Bibles are cheap.
2) For the first 400 years of Christian history the Scriptures had not even been canonized so many different letters and gospels were read to the people. They did the best they could with what they could obtain. Even after 400 years (for reference the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock 400 years ago) every local church did not have in their possession every single canonized book of the Bible.
3) Until some time after the invention of the printing press, the Bible, was an extremely costly book. At today’s minimum wages of $8/hr and only counting the time for one monk to write the whole Bible, it would take 10 months at a cost of $16,640!!! But that doesn’t count the second monk who checked every single page for accuracy, which would raise the cost of one Bible in today’s US Dollars to $30,000 + And that still does not include the cost of materials, or for the time for another monk to decorate the pages and for someone else to bind the pages together and put on a cover. At these prices it is easy to see why every person could not have their own personal Bible for study and devotions. It also becomes clear why Churches chained the Bible in the Church to prevent the theft of this precious possession used every day at every Catholic Mass.
4) The idea of the necessity of Scripture alone for personal reading, salvation, and growth in holiness was a very late invention by Martin Luther etc. It could not be an eternal Christian principle because the majority of people, until the last several hundred years could not read. Even today, 20% of the world population cannot read. So, Our Heavenly Father, in His infinite wisdom and mercy would never have made salvation dependent upon personal reading of the Bible, as some Protestant sects seem to teach.
Believe me Catholics do not follow anyone blindly. There is NOTHING in our Faith than contradicts one thing in Scripture. Our faith only contradicts Protestantism and some of their individual interpretations.
We follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, our Pope, and our Bishops because we are convinced that Jesus Christ Himself founded our Church on Peter the first Pope and the Apostles, the first priests and bishops. All the Protestant churches were started by men.
For more please see my post–>Why NOT the Bible Alone?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Holy Bible state that speaking to the dead is wrong? Forgive me for not having the passage, but if you can recall, at a time back in heaven. Lucifer and a third of the angels were cast out of heaven to earth. This in a way has become deceitful to some people. Satan and his angels take the form of of these dead saints or these Mary sightings opening a door to deceive Gods people into thinking the souls of these saints and mary are roaming on this earth. Praying to these saints and Mary feels like im praying to a dead person. When one diesthey enter a deep sleep. The dead know nothing at this point. So why pray to a saint or Mary. She has no say in your salvation, only your Heavenly Father has control of that.
And furthermore, who’s to say the homeless man on the corner of the street doesn’t have a greater Faith than a practicing Christian or catholic. I’ve seen it happen. The Lord takes many forms to teach even his children in the church. Even if it is through that druggie on the street.
Dear Lola,
Here is the passage you are thinking of:
But this is not about asking the dead for intercessory prayer. This passage deals with various forms of DIVINATION. Asking a living member of the Body of Christ who is in Heaven is nothing like Divination. It is merely intercessory prayer. So, it is absolutely NOT forbidden in scripture.
But you are correct that the demons can try to deceive people with apparitions or voice,s seances, contacting the dead. I totally agree with you. People of all faiths can be taken in by these things. However, the Catholic Church is not taken in by them. Any apparition is nothing but a private event. They play NO role in out faith once delivered to the saints. Catholics are completely free to ignore and reject all apparitions, even those approved by the Church. And those approved by the Church undergo a rigorous examination of all that was said by Mary or a Saint for anything heretical. If heresy is found it is denounced and Catholics are forbidden to follow it in any way. Also, any purported miracles are thoroughly examined by scientist and physicians and not by Catholic men of science either. If these are found to be frauds the miracle is denounced. But, in some cases there are authentic miracles, such as at Lourdes, and some frauds. So demons who are ever seeking to deceive the faithful no doubt take advantage of anything and everything they can.
We do not believe that we enter into a sleep until Jesus comes again after death. We believe that after death comes judgment.
We believe that at death our soul which is immortal goes to judgement and is sent to Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. At the second coming our risen bodies are reunited with our souls. No ones is saying a practicing Christian is automatically more holy than a homeless man. Why did you say that? And why do you believe that our souls sleep? What scripture? Sleep is used as a euphemism for death. But I don’t know of a passage that says when we die our souls sleep until the second coming. Do you?
Show me a passage from the bible that says there is purgatory~ thank you…
and please dont come and say, not all the truth is in the bible, that is sola scriptura, because in that case, Sleep til judgement is also not in the bible so it can not be confirmed, neither is purgatory.
and please dont say that some truths r not frm the bible, but determined by the high priests and archbishop of the CAtholics….? for in that case, it is from men, not of God.
JJ says,
“Sleep til judgement is also not in the bible”
So, ur a self-presumed pope with a self-presumed authority, because in Mattew 24, 42 you can read:
WATCH therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Dear JJ,
Most Protestants are Sola Scriptura. Therefore, based on their own interpretation of scripture or what they have been taught they accuse Catholics of sinning against scripture or believing doctrines not found in Scripture. The interesting thing is, Sola Scriptura is not found in Scripture either but that is what they constantly use to malign the Catholic Faith. They either quote a scripture that they think contradicts Catholic faith (It never does) or they demand “Where in Scripture is Purgatory.” These habits are based on their belief that all that may safely be believed must be found in Scripture. But this belief was introduced a mere 500 years ago by Martin Luther. It is a tradition of men and not laid out in Scripture. The Catholic Church has never believed this Protestant doctrine and has always taught doctrine based upon the teaching of the Apostles both written and oral just as St. Paul exhorts us to do.
Sorry, but all that Jesus did and taught is not in Scripture just as St. John clearly says:
Sleep till judgement certainly is not found in the Bible. But Lola is most likely a sola scriptura Protestant and therefore by her own doctrine how can she tell Catholics we are wrong b/c we sleep till judgement if she has nothing to base that on but her own opinion? Therefore, I point out to Protestants that they unwittingly believe many things not found in scripture.
Catholic priests and bishops and popes do NOT determine Christian Truth. We received all the Christian Truth from the Apostles. We don’t make up new doctrine.
Dear Sincere,
You are correct. No Tradition may contradict the Bible. And Catholic TRADITION (Teaching of the Apostles) does NOT contradict anything in Sacred Scripture. It cannot because our TRADITION AND THE BIBLE are BOTH nothing less that the teachings of Jesus to His apostles. Some of these teachings were written down and canonized by the Catholic Church and others written down later.
Therefore, the teachings of Jesus, both written and oral do not contradict each other. What you are missing is that Protestant Tradition or Protestant interpretation of the Bible is what contradicts Catholic teaching. Protestants tend to think they are able to infallibly interpret scripture. Therefore, when their interpretation convinces them that their interpretation contradicts a Catholic doctrine, they jump to the conclusion that Catholic teaching contradicts the Bible. But they are wrong. Catholic teaching merely contradicts various Protestant interprettions or traditions. We do not worry about that. Catholic TRADITION can be traced back 2000 years. Protestant Tradition has only been around for 40-500 years.
Our Catholic TRADITION is historical. The Catholic Church has believed these teachings for 2000 years. These are not made up new teachings. But sola scriptura is new and it is a tradition of men.
…
Your explanation on the theology of ‘Sola Scriptura’ sounds similar to what I had read from an online Anglican blog.
I hope you may take some time to read from Bfhu’s recent post on Sola Scriptura.
When I was 15 I bicycled to my first church, St. Boniface. I had read the bible twice by that time and was stunned to find Statues of Mary and baby Jesus and people praying before it. My heart sank and I asked God why would they break commandment #2, where God states no image of anything in heaven, earth, or sea should be made and bowed down to. I prayed to know where to go to church as there was so much unbiblical ceremonies, repititious praying (the verse before the Lord’s Prayer says don’t pray like the heathon do with repititious praying , it is not from the heart.). God is not impressed with our traditions and ceremonies, He even stated how He destests them. He gave us His Scriptures as a blueprint for life…He didn’t make any mistakes and the days may change but the sins of man do not.
It seems the term sola scriptura is used as a ‘bad’ thing, a ‘man made tradition’…maybe I”m ignorant but if people are trying to avoid their flesh form ‘making stuff up as they go along’ v. ‘following God’s blueprint for mankind’ I think the latter has much more merit. I’m just a sinner saved by grace…how can a sinner even conceive of what would be ok to do compared to God. He hates our vain imagination as we always get into trouble, look at the history of the Israelites. God wants to be loved, number 1, HIm alone. So why go to someone else if that’s what He desires? Simple. We make so much fuss over tradition at the cost of doing what is most important…living for Him as He asked. Jesus said ‘You say you love me but you don’t follow my commandments.’ Isn’t command #2 being broken? God knew our tendancies are toward idolatry, it is historically true. That is why He forbids it…so why have it? Just curious.
With my limited knowledge, I shall try to explain as much as possible.
As you know, there are 14 imperatives in the Book of Exodus and the Catholic Church puts the commandment against idolatry together with its 1st commandment against the worship of other gods – because it’s the most important. So, Catholics are highly against idolatry as well.
First of all, as the saying goes ‘a picture paints a thousand words’, people have been using icons or statues to easily remind us, visually and psychologically (scientifically proven). Be the statues or icons be depicting biblical scenes or saints, the purpose is NOT to worship but as visually reminders. Next, God is highly against the idolizing of Him as an animal or something on Earth because there was high pagan influence (which worship animals and stuff as god(s)). It is offensive, just like how offensive it will be if people makes a portrait of you as an animal.
Catholics usually quote from the OT reharidng the bronze serpent to defend the use of statues while non-Catholics criticize that it was meant for us to meditate on Christ’s passion (as quoted from the Gospel according to John). But in the OT, they do not know Jesus’ name but only prophecy on his coming. God even instructed Moses to carve the serpent statue. If God is really against the carving of graven image, He would not have contradicted himself to ask his creation to carve a Serpent out of earthly material in the first place. There are more instances of things carved out that bear likeness to things in heaven and on earth. Another one would the ark of the covenant that bears 2 Angels facing each other. If I’m not wrong, the Ark of the Convenant, that is made by Man, had to be placed in the Temple during worship or else it would be irreverence.
Besides, kneeling is also used in other faiths as the pain felt allows one to show sincerity. It is also seen as a physical test of faith and faithfuls don’t see kneeling as worship. if kneeling/bowing in front of a statue/icon is considered as worship – then are kneeling beside the bed, genuflecting in the presence of the Queen of England, bowing to others (especially in Asian countries where bowing is to show respect – I know best as im Asian) or praying with/before a Bible considered as worship?
So everything points down to the intention of the action. I hope you understand why Catholics do this.
The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. While this is true, they fail to recognize a crucially important issue. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.
The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”
Sola scriptura does not nullify the concept of church traditions. Rather, sola scriptura gives us a solid foundation on which to base church traditions. There are many practices, in both Catholic and Protestant churches, that are the result of traditions, not the explicit teaching of Scripture. It is good, and even necessary, for the church to have traditions. Traditions play an important role in clarifying and organizing Christian practice. At the same time, in order for these traditions to be valid, they must not be in disagreement with God’s Word. They must be based on the solid foundation of the teaching of Scripture. The problem with the Roman Catholic Church, and many other churches, is that they base traditions on traditions which are based on traditions which are based on traditions, often with the initial tradition not being in full harmony with the Scriptures. That is why Christians must always go back to sola scriptura, the authoritative Word of God, as the only solid basis for faith and practice.
Saying that all truth is not found in the bible, is giving people a platform to make up whatever they want and say oh it’s tradition passed down by the apostles but never provide any proof or evidence for this.
Why not stick to what we KNOW as FACT, something which is 100% true word of God aka THE BIBLE.
Concerning Mary, Luke 11:27-28, tells us how Jesus felt about our exalting His mother. A woman in the company cried out, “Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked”, and Jesus replied, “Yea RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it”. Jesus loved His mother, but made it clear that we are not to exalt her.
@ Daniel: The better way of reading this is if Mary heard the word of God and kept it … and she did, in the most perfect way. That’s obviously is more important than being just a maternal mother. If I remember, there’s also a problem with translating the word “rather” into English which is giving rise to some misunderstanding like in your case. The point is that the passage says nothing about to exalt or not to exalt Mary. About exalting Mary, you’ve to read it in concert with the rest of the bible to see God’s unique plan for Mary.
Dear Daniel,
Interesting links for you.
http://www.elizabethesther.com/2010/10/how-mary-brought-me-back-to-jesus.html
http://www.elizabethesther.com/2010/10/how-mary-brought-me-back-to-jesus-part-2.html
Dear Daniel,
There is another way of looking at this passage. The Protestant culture teaches the faithful to use a method of what I call “either/or”. For the passage you have brought up one must decide either to honor Mary or “to hear the word of God and keep it.” But in our Catholic way of interpreting scripture we also use a “both/and” method unless the context clearly indicates that an either/or decision must be made. Therefore, one does NOT have to choose either to honor Mary or “to hear the word of God and keep it.” We can do both. But this in no way is to be taken to mean both are equal in importance. The honoring of Mary will get you nowhere if you do not ” hear the word of God and keep it.” It would be a lot like “faith without works is dead”.
In addition, at the suggestion of Surkiko, I just looked up “rather” in the Greek. It is menoun. Here is how a Protestant scholar understands the passage:
The Greek word used for “rather” in Luke 11:28 is “menoun”:
“autos de eipen menoun makarioi hoi akouontes ton logon tou theou kai phulassontes”
“Blessed are those who hear the word of God” (Lk. 11:28a)
From the blog The Knight of Mary
There are various translations of the word menoun. The King James Version translates it as “yea rather” while the Revised Standard Version renders it as “indeed.” The Douay-Rheims Version renders it as “furthermore.”
How then is “menoun” to be understood? Protestant Bible scholar Margaret E. Thrall studied Greek particles in the New Testament. This scholar cannot be accused of bias toward the Catholic position. Yet, in her study, she suggests the interpretation of “menoun” in Luke 11:27-28 as:
Jesus said in John 14:14, “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” Therefore, it would seem safe to say that we can pray to Jesus and ask Him to answer our prayers. Also, we can see further confirmation of this by looking at the phrase, “call upon the name of the Lord.” In the Old Testament that phrase is used only of God and it includes the meaning of worship, adoration, and prayer. Psalm 116:4 says, “Then I called upon the name of the Lord: ‘O Lord, I beseech Thee, save my life!’ What is interesting is that this phrase is applied to Jesus in 1 Cor. 1:2, “to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.” Paul obviously knew the significance of the phrase, which included prayerful appeal, and applied it to Jesus.
In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” The word “fellowship” is the Greek word koinonia which is also translated as the word “communion.” 1 Cor. 1:9 says that we are to have an intimate fellowship with Jesus. That is fine. But, how can we have fellowship with someone with whom we never talk? Therefore, this verse can also be used to support the idea of praying to Jesus.
If it is okay to pray to the Father, and the Son, is it alright to pray to the Holy Spirit? The answer would be yes because the Holy Spirit is also God. Nevertheless, we never see an instance in the Bible where anyone prays to the Holy Spirit. Why is that? The answer is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness of Himself. He bears witness of the Son (John 15:26). But still, we can pray to the Spirit because we are also called into fellowship with the Spirit. 2 Cor. 13:14 says, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
Finally, we can simply pray to God. We can address God, the Lord, in our prayers and as we feel led, address the members of the Trinity.
Daniel,
I don’t disagree with anything you have said here.
Firstly, Surkiko pointed out that the Greek word for ‘rather’ is linguistically interesting. It sure indeed brings about much misunderstandings.
Second, bfhu also pointed out that the Catholic Church uses the ‘both/and’ approach in preaching the Scripture.
Third, Mary is definitely blessed for she is the first human to humbly accept and keep the Word Incarnate. She bore Him and lived by Him.
Last, Catholics do pray and worship the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen to that! Additionally, Catholics invoke her name to pray for/with us just like how we ask anyone to pray for/with us. This is because Paul urged us to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for/with us. This is pleasing to God!
Not one bible verse. But ideas of men.
I have a personal relationship with the Lord. I have been praying to be led to join a church for several years. I’ve regularly driven to many and sat in their parking lot in prayer. For 15 years I’ve been kept busy just learning not to judge and removing the plank from my own eye. For me… God has called me to look at the “space” between being right and being LOVE. I’ve found that I can only produce fruit by understanding, so people “open” and then being LOVE, by planting seeds that make a person contemplate and seek TRUTH for themselves. To me… Being LOVE in the world is FAR more pleasing to the Lord than proving your “right” at any cost to compassion and understanding. While I understand why Catholics believe what they believe and do what they do, I do not concur. I believe because they raise persons to sainthood they embellish their value and function in the afterlife, as any human being tends to favor their attachments. We are all, after all, human that understanding alone should temper hate and wrath. Just my “human” thoughts, maybe I’ll search for a site that teaches how to lift people up WITHOUT tearing them down. God Bless ALL!!!
@ Fran: One cannot appreciate the beauty of a stained-glass window of a house of God from the parking lot (even in prayer). Our God is not just of love and compassion but also a just God of judgment. I will suggest that you join a church and get involve with other Christians in corporal worship. God bless.
I thought the dead were dead and the living living. Why pray through Mary when you should have a PERSONAL relationship with God.
Dear Truth,
The Bible nowhere mentions that all Christian Truth comes from the Bible. The doctrine of sola scriptura is a tradition of men. Therefore, we are not restricted to believing only what is in Scripture. We also believe in what the Apostles taught that did not get written down in Sacred Scripture as St. Paul exhorts us to hold fast to all that he taught whether by word of mouth or by letter. However, we may believe nothing that is contradicted by Scripture.
Mary and the Saints in Heaven hear out prayer requests by the power of God not by their own power. You are correct that sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy and divination are condemned in the Scriptures but the Catholic Church condemns all of these as well. Asking for intercessory prayer of out brothers and sisters in Heaven is NOT DIVINATION. If it were you could not ask anyone to pray for you at all. And yet we are told to pray for one another. So this is just another Protestant tradition. What is the difference between asking someone on Earth or in Heaven to pray for us? There is nothing in Scripture that condemns it. Only your personal individual interpretation condemns it.
Praying to Mary is like me praying to my mother after she dIes! it’s not right! NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME! WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS THE WORD OF GOD NEED NOT BE INTERPRETED! THE BIBLE SAYS BE A MESSANGER NOT AN INTEPRETER!! GOD IS! HE JUST IS!! HE DOESN’T NEED ME YOU OR THE NEXT PERSON! TALKING TO SPIRITS SOUNDS LIKE WITCHCRAFT ANYWAY! THE POPE HAS NO BETTER CONNECTION TO GOD THAN I HAVE..GOD DOESN’T LOVE HIM ANY MORE OR LESS THAN ME!! WE ARE ALL GOD’S CHILDREN!!!!!
Dear Mr. Smiff,
Thank you for your opinion. I think you are confusing what you have been taught with what Scripture actually says. There is nothing in scripture that forbids asking for prayers from Christians who died but are alive in Christ. There would be no harm in asking your mom to pray for you after she died.
The Word Of God does need to be understood and interpreted. Different interpretations are precisely why there are over 30,000 divisions in the Protestant Churches.
I find it odd that you think Christians praying for one another and asking each other for prayer, sounds like witchcraft.
God does love us all equally.
I’d agree with Luke 20;37,but continue to read deeply in Luke 20;38!
This is all non sense!! The bible say everything that you ask in HIS NAME will be given to us, the bible never say that if we ask something in thename of mary it will be given to us! And the bible says that Jesus himself will intercede for to us to God!! And Mary herself said that do what Jesus said she had never said to what i said!! And finally GOD is the only god. We need to paraise only him as he said in his commandments. HIS IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!! So no way to pray or t take mary as an interssesor!
http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/mary/mary.html –> HERES ALL THE PROOF THAT WE NEED NOT TO PRAY MARY.. IT IS A SIN!
Dear Julia,
We never pray “in the name of Mary”. We pray “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
We merely ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us. Do you ever ask a friend to pray for you or for a special prayer request? That is exactly what we do when we ask Mary to pray for us. God did tell us to pray for one another.
We know that Jesus intercedes for us as well as the Holy Spirit. We only worship God as well. You have been taught many Protestant traditions-of-men: That Catholics worship Mary. That is just not true.
You have given us your opinion but no scripture to prove that we must not ask for Mary and the Saints to intercede for us. Protestants have the practice of slamming Catholics if we don’t have a scripture that satisfies them as proof for our beliefs. And yet they never notice when they give their opinions without any scripture back up. We agree with all of the scripture in your link.
Asking Mary for intercessory prayer is NOT Necromancy. Necromancy is a form of divination. Do you think you are practicing divination when you ask a friend to pray for you? Divination is an abomination. It is intellectually sloppy to try to lump intercessory prayer with necromancy just because a Saint has died and gone to Heaven….where their souls are certainly very much ALIVE!
I also think your link missed this passage:
Do Protestants call Mary Blessed? Ever? Absolutely not. That would be too Catholic.
Never the less. I’ve said it once, praying the rosary is praying to Mary. Mary did not create us God did.There is no mention in the bible that we pray to Mary or the rosary. I’ve heard Catholic priests even mentioning that to us during mass. God heals not Mary. She maybe listening to our prayers but only Jesus responds. Our prayers is to God and God only.
Dear Dan,
Praying to Mary and praying the Rosary are merely talking to Mary and asking her to pray to us. Just like the Hail Mary says:
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Whoever said that Mary created us????!!!! Catholics certainly do not think Mary created us. Why did you say that????
Catholics do not believe the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Therefore we do not have to quote a scripture for every belief we have. But Protestant do believe in Sola Scriptura and yet they have NO SCRIPTURE THAT FORBIDS PRAYING THE ROSARY OR ASKING MARY AND THE SAINTS TO PRAY FOR US.
We agree that God heals not Mary and that our prayer and Mary’s prayer is to God only.
Well BFHU,
You said there is no scripture which is said to not pray mary.. But as well there is no scipture which is said to pray mary.. And Jesus is the only interssesor for God.. So why going to take another interssesor?Ok i agree you do not pray mary, but you pray idols and statues this is a sins as in his commandments he said not to pray staues. And you agree you use Bible as God word so why to use it as you to all the opposite hw said. And if you do not believe on God’s love and that he is only our interssesor so Jesus himself think that you are incredulous. And i also think you don’t pray Jesus you pray his death on the cross as in all church their is his statue when he was at the cross! And if you want more ideas go and read THE 10 COMMANDMENTS!
Well said Julia. While growing up I was made to believe that every Sunday we must confess our sins to a priest in what they call a confession booth. When I started reading the bible after I got married, I read in the new testament Jesus saying it is to God himself that you confess your sins to no one else. It is God himself that can forgive you your sins not a priest or your fellow parishioners, let alone a priest. What I am appalled about is that why do these catholic priest think that the power of Jesus has been handed down to them from Paul. Just because Paul was granted the power to drive out demons and make people see and walk that now these catholic priests have the absolute power to perform exorcism. My parish priest mentioned that while he was on his retreat he met up with 12 master exorcist priests. He even explained that the most powerful gift that we have is knowing how to pray the rosary. I did not hear praying the lord’s prayer. I can’t get upset over that for I even pray everyday that Jesus forgives them for their believing ways.
Dear Dan,
Here is where the Catholic Church “got” confession to a priest.
A priest cannot pronounce forgiveness or retention of sin, unless he hears the sins audibly. You are correct that God is the one who forgives sin but, as He always has, for some reason He chooses to work through faithful men and women. If you don’t like it you will have to take it up with Him in Heaven.
In all of our sacraments the priest is representing Jesus. So, in a mystical way, through the priest, Jesus forgives our sins. We do not think our priests have power in and of themselves but only as God gives it to them.
You said:
That is NOT in the New Testament as far as I know. Unless you can quote the exact scripture we cannot take your word for it. I always find it puzzling that Protestants, who claim to be Sola Scriptura, make pronouncements about what is right and wrong or what the Bible says without any quotation from Scripture.
May I ask who the PRiest you are refering to? Your quotation of the bible in your own context is very misleading and puzzling..BHFU
God gave us the greatest gift of all and that is forgiveness, the gift to forgive those who tresspass against me. Another thing I have been reading the bible and like you have said it was only to his Disciples that he has given his powers to not to priests. They are not Paul, Peter and so on. No bfhu I am convinced enough that I don’t need to confess to man let alone a priest. Confessing to Jesus is good enough for me and following the commandments. In a mortal common sense, keeping and practicing the commandments does tend to keep you out of trouble. I will not follow any religious practices but what Jesus has done and his words he has spoken.
Dear Julia,
You are correct.There is no scripture that commands us to pray to Mary. But there is no scripture that commands us to ask any person, by name, to pray for us. Surely you don’t think it would be wrong for me to ask you, Julia, to pray for me.
Remember, we are not “praying to Mary” in the same way as we would pray to God. We are only asking Mary to pray for us whereas we ask God to answer our prayer by His power.
When I pointed out to you that you gave your opinion but did not cite any scripture to prove we should not ask Mary to pray for us, I do that because I am guessing that you are a Sola Scriptura Protestant. Catholics do NOT accept Sola Scriptura because it was invented a mere 500 years ago by Martin Luther. Since the Catholic Church has been around since Jesus founded it 2000 years ago, Catholics have NEVER believed in Sola Scriptura.
And the funny thing is, Sola Scriptura is also a tradition of men because it is not found in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition either. So, you are taught to question Catholics about their beliefs that are not explicitly in Scripture and yet you are also taught to believe in Sola Scriptura which is NOT ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE.
Jesus is the only intermediary between God and man. He is not the only intercessor. We are told in Scripture:
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
So, if we are told in Scripture to pray for one another. How can it be wrong to pray for one another?
We do not pray to statues or pictures. We pray to the souls in Heaven represented by the art. The Commandment tells us not to WORSHIP anything on earth other than God. And we certainly do not worship anyone except God. Please click on this post—>Another Protestant Tradition: Catholics worship Idols.
You also might find these posts very surprising–>Protestant Tradition Misreads Scripture
Do Protestant Traditions Negate the Word of God?
But, if you want to stay Protestant, perhaps you better not read them.
No im not a sola scrupture… I’M A GOSPEL and im tring to open your eyes and help you to know the real TRUTH!! Ok you ask mary to intercede for you.. But when telling a friend or anybody who is ALIVE to pray for you is completely different from praying a death. Mary was a simple person, she is the mother of Jesus thats all. You might not ask the death to pray for you here’s one proof- Isaiah 8:19 and there are even more verses… there are also some verses in the new testament!
The Word SOLA SCRIPtura is a coined term by men, so is the label Roman Catholics…I find it amusing that you keep trying to keep everyone who isnt a CAtholic away and off by calling ALL other source of debate – SOLA SCRIPTURA….just because Christians Listened to the word of God, and keep to the bible, and not from Men, nor from Traditions, nor by Rituals nor by a so called High Priest, …When there only is one ~ God himself and Jesus Christ himself whom we should listen to and not get distracted by so many Man Made traditions and arguments just because The Roman Catholics was formed by the Emperor first to regulate this “religion”…Wake up…Read the whole bible and find out Love,…in its form and how God want us to OBEY…and not be like Pharisees and get stuck to own vision.
Dear JJ,
I have read the Bible many times especially as a Sola Scriptura Protestant. I studied with a Greek Interlinear and Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words along with Strong’s and Young’s concordances.
I know what Sola Scriptura means. But it most certainly is a Tradition of Men, first pronounced by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago. Sticking to the Bible Alone is a wonderful theory. It sounds like a good idea and one that would work.
I agree it should work. The Holy Spirit could do that. It is a great Theory. However it has several problems:
1) It cannot be found anywhere in Scripture so it is self-refuting. If the idea of sticking to scripture alone and not to Apostolic Teaching (Catholic Sacred Tradition), not rituals, not Pope’s etc is held so dogmatically by Protestants then why can’t they find this teaching in Scripture? Why are they so unconcerned that Sola Scriptura is not in Scripture? How can they criticize Catholics for not having everything in Scripture whey they don’t either?
2) The newest parts of the Bible were written nearly 2000 years ago. The oldest parts of the Old Testament were probably written at least 3,200 years ago by men from cultures very different from our own. The Theory of Sola Scriptura falls apart and disproves its validity because a person in 2013 who sits down by himself with his Bible cannot accurately interpret everything in scripture unhinged from history and an understanding of the cultures in which the various books were written…unless of course it is true that the Holy Spirit will accurately interpret scripture for them despite ignorance of all these historical issues.
3) The Theory of Sola Scriptura is disproven because it has resulted in a chaos of conflicting interpretations in the hands of laymen and preachers. And this has in turn, given birth to thousands of various Protestant denominations rather than unity of interpretation given to every Christian by the Holy Spirit. So, despite the fact that the Holy Spirit could cause every person who ever read Scripture to accurately understand it, He has not done this.
4) Protestant disunity, due to the belief in Sola Scriptura, is in direct opposition to Jesus who said:
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me.
You can even call me a CHRISTIAN PENTCOSTAL!!
Sorry i’ve made an error, it’s not praying the death but telling a death to intercede for you!!
Julia, Catholics can’t see the wrong that they do and the ones that do would rather stick to their pride, ignorance and arrogance of how they feel about the catholic church than admit the truth. Catholic church is all about appearance and stature, rather than a true relationship with God unfortunately. I pray to God daily to forgive them for they know not what they do as u can’t reason with them as they are so lost in pride and arrogance when in reality they really have nothing to be prideful or arrogant about anyway. My answer to Catholics comes in the form of me humbling myself in prayer to help them see the light.
you’ve just proven that you don’t really know about your religion.. do you know about Constantine the great?? he is the one who invented the Roman catholic religion about 400yrs after Jesus Christ, go do some research.. if you were a real christian your faith would be based on what is written, because this is what Jesus himself said that we must do.. in Isaiah 8, it is written ‘shall the people of God ask a Dead person to intercede in favor of living ones??
Go read exodus 20:4 and underdtand what is written about statues or symbols, you shall not make any representations, then you shall not bow before them..
1 timothy 2:5, jesus is the ONLY intermediary, the only intercessor, the only one who will plead for us before God, he gave his life for us, not Mary!! we are saved by the grace of God, we do not have anything to do with anybody who died, when they die, they are gone whether in paradise or in hell, they cannot come back in dreams or in apparitions, the apostle Paul warns us against apparitions…
a catholic bible contains more than 66 books, and the bible as it should really be contains only 66 books.. Revalation 22:18-19 ’18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.’
the roman catholic religion contains a lot of pagan practices as paganism is its origin, this is why it is called Roman catholic, not Christianism, its origin is from a Roman religion!!
JESUS is the way, the truth and the life, HE is the word became flesh, to serve him we must rely on his word, to know the truth, we must rely on his word, this is why the bible exists, we cannot rely on our opinion to serve the creator of all things as he has already planned what we must do and what we mustn’t do, it’s all written in his word..
Please see my response to Julia here–>Are Roman Catholics are Pagan?
A lot of Christians are just so oblivious to lies and untruths told and being repeated without checking the veracity of the claims against the Church of Christ. The Devil and her legion must be having a great day celebrating falsehood trumping over truth. Until someone actually takes the time to study scripture, theology and church history, he or she has no business discussing issues of faith and moral here. I have heard much of the same trash talks all my life. It is charity to tell all the well-intentioned Christians that they are so pathetically wrong about everything. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is not too much to ask Christians to check their facts before bad-mouthing the Catholic Church. After all, she alone, is THE church established by Christ personally and has been given the “keys of the kingdom of Heaven”. One day, we will all meet up with Christ and will then be tested to see if we have been faithful to Him … or had we been harboring bigotry, egotism and full of personal pride by falling prey to “their) own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears” and seduced by “false prophets, teachers … who will secretly bring in destructive heresies.” Does anyone even get it when the NT church spoke of “factious” believers (e.g., the Corinthians). You ARE the one spoken of … you ARE the modern agnostics, heretics and apostates who have continued to “dispute about words” and are being “tossed to and fro”, etc. Take a cue from scripture by “taking it to the church” as the final arbiter, not Sola Scriptura nor your fallen depraved personal instinct or feeling (Jn 21:15-17). So which Church do you belong to? The Church of Christ? Or the Church of ME-onlyist?
Surkiko, I am satisfied that when I confess to almighty God it is only him that can forgive us our sins through Jesus Christ. The church of Jesus is my heart and my soul. Not the devil’s. Remember,God holds everyone in accountable for their sins. I confess with all my heart and soul and I thank the Lord for even sometimes talking to me in my sleep and to waking up to every brand new day. When people ask to please keep their love ones in our prayers I do just that. I pray and ask the Lord to find him or her in his favor and that he be willing to find him or her worthy of his grace and blessings even though he has plans for us always. But I don’t pray the rosary like all these Catholic Priest allow to happen. I pray to God and God alone and because I keep people in my prayers, I always ask that he may find them in his favor not through Mary like the Catholic says. So let us all relax and keep remembering and praising him. Never mind the other talks.
@ Dan: I can agree with you said except for your Protestant theology. That should not be any surprise. Just leave the Catholics alone instead of habitually criticizing us like the rest of “them” by presenting a strawman fallacy. If you want, maybe you can show me how “the church of Jesus is my heart and my soul” in the bible. You still do believe in sola scriptura, right? Or maybe you don’t need the bible just like you don’t need the Church since you can go “directly” to God all the time.
Surkiko, I go to church to listen to the gospel and the preachings. But it is the traditions that I don’t believe in following or even practicing. Isn’t it like you said always praying to God like almost going directly to him especially when you pray? As Jesus has done help the poor and hanging out with sinners and tax collectors I do the same because I deal with people like these everyday. But I have always mentioned to them that when ever you need of help spiritually, pray and believe. They’ll say oh, you’re Catholic I say it does not matter if I am Catholic or not, all that matters is you obey/keep God’s commandments and believe with all our heart that when you it shall be answered,seek and you will find, forgive and you shall be forgiven. Jesus is our breath of life which is why I always give thanks for another day.
@ Dan: Again, I can agree with you on almost everything except maybe your ecclesiology. I see the Church as a divine institution. And such as a part of God’s provincial plan, there must be very good reasons for her existence. If that’s so, who am I to complain?
I do believe that we’ve to be careful when talking about “traditions.” The big (T)raditions are apostolic in origin, thus forming a part of our core beliefs as Christians. The small (t)ratitions are customs and practices which can be changed but they were/are holy and useful in different ages for the piety of the faithful. I’m also fond of admitting that I was not brought up as a “devotional” Catholic (due to family environment). However, I will NEVER rail against the devotional practices just because I don’t understand them now. In fact, I’m slowly finding out that the quiet faith of many devoted Catholics are astonishingly mature, something I should be imitating more in humility.
i know deep inside, that warning you all against the catholic church is an act of charity. i am not criticizing, i am denouncing because of all these pagan practices kept by the roman catholic church and it is so obvious that i really can’t understand how people can’t see. Please, for your own sake, do some research on the catholic church, read your bible and ask the Holy spirit of God to reveal you his word, his truth. the church of Christ has started together with the Christ’s minister, but the roman catholic church has started about 400yrs after the Christ had gone back to his Kingdom. All of the answers are found in his word!! ‘seek and you will find’.. and yes, the rosary, the worship of the ‘Mary’ etc is not found in the bible because a man said that Mary personally appeared to him and told him about the rosary and how she should be worshiped etc.. can a catholic or someone who knows please tell me who this man was?? Fort these apparitions you can then read Galatians chapter 1 verses 1 to 10, please read it, understand it and i hope that these verses become a revelation to you and that you come to know the only truth and the only way to eternal life, Jesus. May God bless you all 🙂
@ Julia: We know that you are good-intentioned. All I’m asking is also that you research your facts first instead of repeating something told to you by someone who in turn was told by someone else who had never bothered to check the veracity of the claims against the church of Christ. We’re living in a time when there are great resources readily available for the truth seekers. I will suggest reading some books written by Catholics themselves instead of relying on anti-Catholic writers filled with bigotry and hatred for the Church. A good book is “Surprised by Truth” (Volume One) by Patrick Madrid which contained many wonderful testimonies of recent converts. Since I feel that you’re genuine and sincere, I will even buy the book for you if you will send me your address (You can send it via the owner of this blog). There’s no shady trick here, just an honest gesture from a Christian to another Christian.
Julia: You’re probably referencing to St. Dominic although the real story of the rosary was even more ancient. Anyway, here’s another example of misinformation because Mary did NOT tell St. Dominic (nor any Catholic) to worship her instead of her Son and her Savior. Here’s a link to one of my favorite inspirational songs, Dominique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkq0Ncf32cs. Enjoy it.
Dear Julia,
I read Galations and agree with it completely. I have no idea who you are talking about. We do not worship Mary and Mary NEVER would have told anyone to worship her. She always points us to her Son…”Do whatever He tells you.”We are not obliged to believe any apparition. They are merely private revelation and they may be lies or faithful to the teachings of Jesus Christ. But every Catholic is free to disregard them, even the ones thoroughly investigated by the Church and found to be authentic.
Regarding Praying to Mary!
“What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to the dead?”
Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.
Dear Dan,
I am sure that your pastor taught you this and used this verse to back up his denunciation of the Catholic Church. But, what is condemned is DIVINATION-(the occult practice of trying to get information from the dead in order to make decisions) NOT Intercessory prayer requests.
So the purpose for speaking to the dead when practicing DIVINATION is SEEKING OCCULT INFORMATION.
Let’s define our terms.
When we ask the dead (but alive in Heaven) to pray for us we are asking for intercessory prayer. We are asking them to pray for us. We are not asking them for information in order to make decisions.
If you notice your quote above:
Consults has a very different meaning than “speak to”.
Exactly as the I Chron. passage says: Saul “consulted a medium for guidance”
And here is the Deuteronomy passage:
As you can see, DIVINATION through necromancy, consulting a medium is the seeking of hidden (occult) information for decision making or attempts to control events. This is what God condemns because we are to trust Him; seek guidance only from Him. This is because God knows that the so called “dead” consulted in necromancy are not really the spirits of a human person but DEMONS disguised as the intended person.
A DEMON would NEVER join us in praying to God for anything. Therefore when we ask someone, in Heaven, to pray for us we do not have to worry about contacting Demons. They lose any power over us. We ask for prayers only not for information. Therefore, we also do not need to be afraid we will be led astray by Demons either because we give them no power to give us any information.
It is very sloppy exegesis to tell people that Divination is the same thing as asking for intercessory prayer and is therefore condemned by God in the OT.
Challenge for anyone here: I invite EVERYONE here to read the book ‘Rediscovering Catholisism’ by Matthew Kelly. For any Christian here to say other sources other than the Bible used to learn about God and Jesus Christ is ridiculously a lie. I know for a fact that there are MANY things out there that non Catholics use to learn about our heavenly father. So if you have yet to read this extroirdinary book, consider it a personal recommendation from me. God bless you all. 🙂
Who is Mathew Kelly? Is he a convert from Catholic to Christian, a prophet, or did he write a whole new bible?
a convert from Catholic to Christian? Ridiculous! Catholics are Christians… the earliest Christians of the church before anyone decided to rebel and protest. The Catholic Church was the first to put all the scriptural books together to create the Bible which you now claim authority over. That said, it was all the protestant Churches that decided to change what they wanted and deviate from the Bible in more ways than one. For one, the Protestants wanted a way out from marriage and so broke away from the Catholic Church to indulge in divorce. Secondly, Protestants do not believe in the dead once they are dead.
No.. I am not looking down on the protestants, and you are who you are and form what you believe, and I respect you for who you are. But if you do not have the heart of a Catholic you are NEVER going to view our faith the way we do. No amount of debates or discussions or arguments over it will ever justify why Catholics pray to Mary or the saints or to the angels.
The definition of pray is to implore, request, aid in, ask, and often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea … to supplicate or ask for help or intercession.
When a Catholic prays to Mary it does not mean he is misplacing his allegiance to God the Trinity. If I am to ask you to intervene or recommend my name for a prospective job, it is an act of supplication or prayer. We often take for granted that prayer means only supplication to God. If I am to ask you for help it would mean I am turning to you for help. If you know the General Manager better than I do, I would see it fit to ask you for a recommendation rather than go directly to him. It bears more weight when one close to the top helps or intercedes.
In this light, Catholics request Mary to intercede for us. Mary may have asked Jesus for a request in an untimely manner at the wedding at Cana, but did HE turn her down? Nope. After they requested her help to intervene and tell Jesus, she had full trust that he would oblige and so she told them to listen to Him … (He would give them instructions). She had full faith in him. And he asked them to fill the jars with water. The first public miracle, where Mary intervened … interceded for the people.
There are also many passages where the saints and angels are forever in the presence of God .. praising God and praying for the people. That would mean… praying for us on earth.
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).
“Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2)
“the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:10).
To get to the heart of praying to Mary… Catholics recite the Rosary. The Rosary is nothing other than scripture as the angel proclaimed her…
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed if the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1: 27, 42 …)
The second half is an intercession to Mary
Holy Mary, Mother of God (Luke 1: 43) pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
You can request those in the presence of the Lord (for they are alive in Christ) to intercede for you. The prayers of the righteous avails much.
‘Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.’ (James 5:16).
———
I do believe we are falling to petty standards in trying to contradict each other. Let your prayers and hearts lead you to what you want to find and let it not be through means of debate. All five fingers are not the same and yet the hand performs a unified function. All of us Christians are not the same … We follow different doctrines but the same one God. What the Lord wills for us is more important than what we try to magnify and claim importance. Love…. this is one request I have. Love through the love of Christ.
You know I have been asked this before ,”what is or where is my proof?” I do have a religious faith and that religious faith is in God and God only. I read the bible and I am always convinced that this is my proof. I will not judge and you can continue to sin and I will continue to ask God to please forgive those who do not know what they do or say. Below is a comment of which it has been interpreted for understanding of what I have been reading all along. I just wish all of you can get that through your heads. God Bless, read on.
“Is praying the rosary Scriptural?”
Answer: While much of what the prayer of the rosary contains is scriptural, the whole second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are blatantly unbiblical. While the first part of the Hail Mary is almost a direct quotation from Luke 1:28, there is no scriptural basis for (1) praying to Mary now, (2) addressing her as “holy” Mary, or (3) calling her “our life” and “our hope.”
Is it right to call Mary “holy,” by which the Catholic Church means that Mary never sinned nor had any taint of original sin? The believers in the Bible were called “saints,” which can be interpreted as “set-apart ones” or “holy ones,” but the understanding of Scripture is that the righteousness that believers in Christ have is an imparted righteousness from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and that while in this life, they are not yet sanctified from sin in practice (1 John 1:9-2:1). Jesus is called our Savior repeatedly in Scripture because He saved us from our sin. In Luke 1:47, Mary calls God her “Savior.” Savior from what? A sinless person does not need a Savior. Sinners need a Savior. Mary acknowledged that God was her Savior. Therefore, Mary was acknowledging that she was a sinner.
Jesus said that He came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). The Roman Catholic Church claims that Mary was saved from sin differently from everyone else–that she was saved from sin through the immaculate conception (her being conceived free of sin). But is this teaching scriptural? The Roman Catholic Church openly admits that this teaching is not found in Scripture. When a young man addressed Jesus as “good Master” (Matthew 19:16-17), Jesus asks why he calls Him “good” since there is none good but one, God. Jesus was not denying His own deity, He was trying to make the young man aware that he was using the term too loosely without thinking about what he was saying. But Jesus’ point is still valid or He would not have said it–there is none good but God. This excludes all but God, including Mary! This ties in with Romans 3:10-23; Romans 5:12; and countless other passages that stress the fact that in God’s eyes no one measures up. Never is Mary ever excluded from such all-encompassing statements!
What of the question of praying to Mary or to anyone else besides God? We are never told in the Bible whether anyone else in heaven can even hear us. We do know that God alone is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. Even the angels, with whatever great abilities they may have, seem to have their limitations and can’t always make it to help us as they might like (Daniel 10:10-14). When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He gave them what is commonly called the “Our Father.” He teaches us to address our prayer to God. Whenever prayer is addressed to anyone, it is done to God! Never can you find a single example of someone praying to any “saint” or angel or anyone else (besides prayers to false gods). Further, any time that any pious person prostrates himself (in a religious setting) to honor someone else besides God (chiefly to the apostles or angels), he is told to get up, to stop it (Acts 10:25-26; Acts 14:13-16; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 19:10; Revelation 22:8-9). The Roman Catholic Church states that it worships God alone but that it “venerates” Mary and the saints. What is the difference? A person praying the rosary spends more time calling out to Mary than to God! For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are 10 praises of Mary!
The Bible states that Jesus is our Redeemer (Galatians 3:13; 4:4-5; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Revelation 5:9). The “Hail, Holy Queen” calls Mary our “most gracious advocate,” but the Bible calls Jesus our Advocate to the Father (1 John 2:1) and our one Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5). The only time in Scripture that the title “Queen of Heaven” is found it is in a negative way (Jeremiah 7:17-19; 44:16-27). The whole of Scripture teaches us to pray to God alone. Never once can you find an example or admonition to pray to anyone else! The only basis for the idea of getting to God through Mary is the biblical story of Mary coming to Jesus to ask for his help at a wedding feast (John 2). But in light of all of the other verses, including Jesus’ own instruction on how we are to pray, is it taking this passage in context to use it to teach that we ought to continue to go through Mary to get to God?
Likewise, is it appropriate to call Mary our “life” and “hope”? Again, these are terms that are used of God alone in Scripture, particularly God the Son, Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14; Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1; Ephesians 2:12; Titus 2:13). Thus, the practice of saying the rosary goes contrary to Scripture in a number of ways. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. The Bible nowhere instructs Christians to pray through intermediaries, or to petition saints or Mary (in Heaven) for their prayers.
Where does Scripture say that our prayers must come straight out of the Bible?
where does scripture say prayer must not come straight from the bible?
If the Bible is the truth for a Christian, why can’t the prayers be from Scripture. I wouldn’t want universal prayers to be from anywhere else, unless they are my personal prayers. Throughout the Bible, the spirit teaches us to pray. Why are we being so daft and stubborn-hearted that we cannot let the Spirit lead. All we want is our ego to be in control. In order to pray fervently, we have to let go and let God.
Simon… you will continue to ask God to forgive what they do not know or say? You’re praying for us? If I asked you to pray for me would you? If I told you I need prayers and intercessions for a particular personal reason or cause, would you?
I’d rather ask Mary to pray for me than rely on hypocritical prayers of self righteousness. She is spotless because she has been saved through faith. She may have been a sinner, but through faith in the Redeemer, like the saints, she has been saved and is nearest to the heart of God than you or I will ever be.
It is so easy to condemn, but it takes a whole lifetime of experiences to realize the love of God and share it with each other. Until then we will be debating over who is more righteousness and who’s doctrine is right. Again I say, love. Love with the love God has given us. And Simon, yes, please pray for me. I’d appreciate it. I am a sinner …but one thing I do know, is that through faith my Lord is leading me… and right now he is leading me the Catholic way. Argue all you want … I care less.
Well how about you pray for yourself, and it shouldn’t be a matter of who’s more righteous, but plainly what does the bible say… Period
Well for 1. Do you get on your knees when you ask another Christian to pray for you ? 2. You( We) , can pray directly to our Lord Jesus. The Catholic Church has implemented and changed a lot , contrary to the Bible
We can certainly pray for ourselves but James says:
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
This is just what we all do. Protestants are missing out on the prayers of the most righteous of all….the Saints.
The Catholic Church has changed nothing. We still have the beliefs and practices implemented by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. The first century Church was very Catholic. We believe and practice NOTHING that is contrary to the Bible….only contrary to Protestants.
You haven’t fully answered the question. Would you get on your knees to ask a fellow catholic/saint in physical form here on earth to pray for you like you would do Mary or any other saint in heaven?
No, of course we would not ask others to intercede for us on our knees, in this culture. But it has been done in the past and even a proposal of marriage is still traditionally done on bended knee. Because it is a form or posture of asking, begging. But, anyway we are not required to kneel when we ask for the intercession of the Saints. But when we do it, we do it out of respect.
Heck no I will not kneel or bow to any human or to any saints and pray to them. I kneel only for God. When I pray the Our Father.
Beloved, there is no point arguing over this, in the first place. And the Catholics shall never accept and agree with what Protestant Christians think, neither will Christians accept what the Catholics are doing(with their practices and rituals etc). The Catholics will always claim that they are following the exact things set by Jesus and God himself since the beginning, and the Christians will always be said to follow strictly what the Bible says and is coined Sola Scriptura followers etc.
This post to let/allow what others understand about Catholics praying to and for and Thru other saints and people not in our current world will never be clarified or be a success. It is a dead cause.
Just pray and follow properly what God says, research on your own, and hopefully, I will see you all in Heaven. For me, Jesus is Grace, and the message is that God’s own son has redeemed it all for us, now and the future. It is his ultimate sacrifice , Jesus, that saved us all.
Shalom and peace to you all.
Believer and follower of Christ,
Jimmy
This is a great post- it makes sense and gives me a great point of reference when asked this question by others, thank you!
The Bible never contradicts itself. The Bible says in the OT not to talk to dead people. Mary is dead. To pray to her and the saints is necromancy which is a sin. Plus We all know that Jesus is without sin. He is sinless not because Mary was his mother. That belief comes from tradition which is NOT equal to Scripture. Read Romans 5:12-21. See verse 12 by 1 man-Adam who committed original sin, sin entered the human race. Jesus did not inherit Adam’s sinful nature because God is His Father. Mary had an earthly father and mother like everyone else in the human race. Verse 12 says a. Through 1 man sin entered the WORLD. B. Death spread to ALL MEN. Unless God was her father Mary was born with original sin like everyone else with human parents.God had to intervene and be the Father of Jesus instead of Joseph in order for Jesus to be sin free and to be fit to die on the cross and pay for our sins. Does the Bible record that God was the father of Mary? Does it say that Mary had a human mother and God as her father? So it is wrong to believe that Mary was born without sin. it is wrong to pray to Mary and it is wrong to pray the Rosary and Wrong to pray to saints.
Dear Melony,
The OT does not tell us not to talk to dead people, even though Mary and the Saints are no more dead than Jesus. The OT forbids necromancy and form of divination by contact with the “dead”. Protestants overlook this fact of the context and the definition of necromancy in their haste to condemn the Catholic practice of asking our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for for us. This is not divination and it is not necromancy as condemned in Deuteronomy.
We do not believe Jesus was without sin because His mother was sinless but that God created Mary without the fallen sin nature and empowered her throughout her life to remain sinless, because she was the mother of Jesus. Yep. Mary’s mother and father were like everyone else.
We do not believe that God was Mary’s father except her Heavenly Father just like everyone else. But we do believe God intervened in her conception and allowed her to be immaculate in exactly the same way that he created Adam and Eve immaculate….but they chose to sin.
There is nothing in scripture that actually supports all the things you think we do that is wrong. You have been taught that they are wrong by using scripture loosely as with necromancy. I used to think just like you when I was Protestant. You might be interested in my conversion story.
Are we still on this subject? The bottom line is we should all know who we pray to and who taught the disciples to pray. We should all know who to ask forgiveness from and who gave us the gift to forgive and taught us how to forgive.. The thing is Catholic believers preach the gospel but still teaches and encourages that you “Pray the Rosary.”
Guys be careful who you pray to. Remember there is only one. God the father, God the son. God the Holy Spirit.
anyway i have this friend who is a catholic, debating with him but he is so adamant on Mary the Lady, Queen of Heaven, it is almost as if he is worshipping her (oh wait, he is worshipping her, due to the exchanges we have so far)
this is just one of it,recently:
Lenard
Pope say pray for peace in Syria . Call on our Lady
Tis sun Rome is praying
whenever something happens, he call on the Lady, the “mother” of God, he doesnt even care or pray to Jesus. Mary is like the bigger thing to him.
Oh well, so much for the so called “adoration”, veneration and whatever….
I will stick and only be speaking to God, Jesus Christ, the One and Only, The Gospel, and the Grace Himself.
Jesus listens to His mother more than His brothers and sisters. but you are certainly not required to ask for His mother’s intercession if you don’t want to
You must not believe that Jesus is God by your logic.
Let me explain, Jesus existed since the beginning of time as he is God.
Mary only gave birth to him as a human being on earth.
You make it sound like Jesus wasn’t alive/didn’t exist before Mary gave birth to him in human form.
Mary was only mother to physical body on earth, Mary is not the mother of God!
God has no mother so Jesus will not/does not favour her more than any other human being.
God will always equal to The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mary is never added or put above that as she is just a human being no different to you and I.
God the Father only used Mary as a vessel to give birth to Jesus in the PHYSICAL form.
WHAT?
You can believe what you want but you are a liar who adds to Gods word. No where is it written that mary was any different than any human being since the beginning of time. She was a normal, inherently sinful person who needed the Lamb of God as much as I do. Who are my mother and brethern? But theu who hear the word of God and do it!!-Jesus
The word of God instructs us to:
Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity–the man Christ Jesus.
So where in the word of God does it instruct us to pray or use Mary or saints as intercession additionally where in the word of God does it say that Mary was Gods mother? Lastly I have this:
Luke 11:27 & 28 Jesus clearly teaches that it is more important to be obedient to the word of God than to pay reverence to his own mother.
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
What Catholics teach is a heresy !
Dear Ruben,
What exactly do you think is heresy? Please supply scripture that clearly supports your accusation.
Ruben, I’ve tried telling them the truth and I never got anywhere with what they believe. I’ve shown lots of scriptures but they were brought up with lies. I prayed and asked that they’d be forgivin and that may they finally realize that Jesus is the, “way, the truth, and the lie.”
I find it telling when people accuse Catholics of heresy and believing lies, yet offer nothing that substantiates their claims. The long lists of quoted scripture are offered b/c they are convinced that their interpretation is infallible and that if we do not have eyes to see and agree with their interpretation (which is often not offered) we must be children of the Devil.
This is a sin against Charity.
Matthew 6:1-34 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
Matthew 7:5 ESV / 121 helpful votes
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV / 93 helpful votes
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
While I am alive I will pray for you and for other who believe just like you. The truth is in the fore front of the bible meaning it is written as Jesus ordered it to be written and not the way the Catholics write it; Satan is among all you who continue to believe this way. Repent now and look at the truth because the bible opened my heart, my ears and my eyes bfhu not the Catholic bible the true bible of the old and the new testament.
Matthew 7:5 ESV / 121 helpful votes
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV / 93 helpful votes
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Uhmmmm….the Catholic Bible is the original BIBLE. Martin Luther removed 7 OT Books and & 7 NT books. He was later persuaded to put the NT books back in. So, today, the Buble the Protestants use is incomplete.
There was a little article written titled, “WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RESURRECTED SAINTS?” which was followed by Farrell Till’s edited version of some additional material that was sent to him, “MORE ON THE RESURRECTED SAINTS”, There are still little wonders regarding that particular topic. One such, that was received from a Christian who apparently had read Glenn Miller’s apologetic article, “Good Question… SURELY that thing about all those resurrected people walking around in Jerusalem after Jesus’ death is bogus, right?” published at “The Christian Think Tank”
This Christian assured that he, like Miller, has no doubts nor questions concerning the two small verses mentioned only in Matthew that mention the “raising of the many” at the time of Jesus’ death and their entry into “the holy city” soon after Jesus’ resurrection when they “showed themselves to many.” (Neither does either of them doubt, nor question, the story of the two “earthquakes” mentioned only in Matthew, that accompanied respectively, 1) the opening of the many tombs, and, 2) the opening of Jesus’ tomb a day and a half later.)
Miller’s article at his Christian Think Tank site mentioned an early second century Christian apologist of whom only a fragment exists. This Christian also cited that same fragment as the answer to his doubts:
“But our Savior’s works were permanent, for they were real. Those who had been cured or rose from the dead not only appeared to be cured or raised but were permanent, not only during our Savior’s stay on earth, but also after his departure. They remained for a considerable period, so that some of them even reached our times.”
The passage does not specifically mention the “raising of the many,” but even if it did include them, the questions that I originally raised in my articles concerning “What Happened to the Resurrected Saints?” remain the same:
1) Having so many “permanently raised” saints walking into Jerusalem and showing themselves to many, why no mention of this multitudinous resurrection miracle in the other Gospels for instance, or in Paul’s letters, or in Acts, even when “the resurrection” is specifically discussed or preached? (Makes you wonder whether Matthew simply added a later tale that had grown up, that only he and his Christian community had begun spreading.)
2) Why are the verses prior to (and after) those two verses in Matthew also found in Mark, but in Mark no such miracle is recorded? (Again, makes you wonder whether Matthew simply added a later tale that had grown up, that only he and his Christian community had begun spreading. Or makes you wonder why the other three Gospellers and everyone else in the N.T. simply “forgot” about the multiple resurrection miracle and the two earthquakes that allegedly accompanied Jesus’ resurrection story.)
3) And though the raised saints showed themselves to many, the raised Jesus was only recorded as having been seen by the apostles (per all four Gospels, including Acts).
(Makes you wonder why the pre-crucified Jesus could enter Jerusalem with crowds seeing him and shouting his name, but after his death and his incomparably miraculous resurrection, nobody gets to see him leave town in absolute triumph except the eleven remaining apostles? On the day of Jesus’ resurrection, supposedly many raised saints had “entered the holy city and were seen by many,” but Jesus only appears in private to a few that same night? Something smells fishy.
Simply read the Gospels themselves, especially the detailed Jersualem-based story in Luke in which the raised Jesus allegedly appeared in a room to the apostles, told the apostles to “stay in the city,” ate a piece of fish to show them he was “flesh and bone,” and, “not a spirit,” and then “led them out to Bethany” after which “Jesus rose,” and they “stayed at the temple in Jerusalem.” So nobody but the apostles are mentioned as getting to see the “flesh and bone, fish-eating, Bethany-leading, pre-ascended-into-heaven Jesus.” For those who doubt what I was just mentioned, here are the verses in Luke and Acts:
LUKE 24: 49 ” ‘…stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’ 50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.
51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.”
The Book of Acts alters the story slightly, having Jesus not “taken up into heaven” on the same night as his Sunday resurrection appearance but says instead that Jesus was on earth for “forty days.” But even in the Book of Acts, the people who allegedly encountered the resurrected Jesus prior to his ascension were only said to have been “the apostles”:
ACTS 1:2 “…giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to THE APOSTLES [capitalization added for emphasis] he had chosen.
3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men [i.e., to “the apostles” as mentioned in the previous verse] and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them [i.e., referring back again to “the apostles”] over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them [the “apostles”], he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem…
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes [before the eyes of “the apostles”], and a cloud hid him from their sight.
The implication in both Luke and Acts was that (with the rare exception mentioned in Luke, i.e., of the encounter when two people didn’t even recognize the raised Jesus) only “the apostles” spent time with the allegedly raised Jesus and then saw him “taken up into heaven” when his “flesh and bone, fish-eating body” rose up into the sky.
So stop a moment and ask your Catholic selves why the flesh and blood raised Jesus showed himself only to “the apostles,” while the “many raised saints” (some of whom must have been “dead” for longer than Jesus was) could “enter the holy city” and “show themselves to many?” And why was that latter tale of the “raising of the many” only found in two small verses in Matthew and not mentioned in any other Gospel, nor are the “many raised saints” mentioned in Acts, nor anywhere else in the N.T., not even when discussions of “the resurrection” arise? Something doesn’t sound right.
As already mentioned, the fragment from the early second century Christian apologist whom Miller cited, above, does not specifically mention the “raising of the many.” Other mentions of the “many raised saints” are only in later Christian works that evidently sought to expand upon the two non-descript verses in Matthew, and such works are not considered cannonical but “apocryphal.” In fact in one such work some of the “raised saints”are named as being, “Adam, Eve, Isaiah,” etc.
Also of interest concerning this topic is that “resurrection miracles” are said to have occurred among Christians after the time of Jesus and his apostles. Brief mention of such miracles can be found in the works of the church fathers, including Augustine. However, such stories have been belittled by Protestants because the early church was “Catholic” and stories of miracles in the “Catholic church” if true, lend too much credence to that church’s authenticity and authority over and above that of the “Protestant churches.” Just read, for instance, how the famed Protestant theologian, B. B. Warfield, thoroughly debunked Catholic miracles and resurrection stories in his famous work, Counterfeit Miracles (London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1972). Which just goes to show, as Dr. Robert M. Price [former fundamentalist], wrote, “The zeal and ingenuity of conservative evangelical scholars in dismantling the miracles of rival Christian groups (and exploding rival interpretations of Scripture used to support such miracles), is worthy of the most skeptical gospel critic.” Along those same lines, the conservative Christian, George W. Peters, dismantled stories of “resurrections” that allegedly took place in the 1970s during the Pentecostal revival in the Phillipines. (See Peters’ book, Indonesia Revival: Focus on Timor (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973), Chapter 4, “The Miracle Phenomena of the Revival,” pp. 57-85.) And conservative Christians dismantled claims made by televangelist, Benny Hinn, that he had performed many miracles, including “raising” someone to life: “Benny Hinn is prone to make wild claims. In a recent show he told the audience, ‘I was in Ghana just recently — we had half a million people show up — and a man was raised from the dead on the platform.
That’s a fact, people. A man was raised from the dead on the platform. We have it on video.’ IMPACT asked Hinn’s television producer, Jeff Pittman, for a copy of that video. But we were told Hinn misspoke, and the cameras weren’t rolling at the time. When IMPACT asked Hinn about the resurrection claim, he backtracked from his original story. ‘God can raise the dead. Absolutely. I have not seen it. In that one case we did hear about it.'”
Source: Deception In The Church
The excuse that “praying to”Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false. No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on. In fact it is prohibited to speak to spirit as per leviticus. Besides this, Jesus is the intercessor. Jesus is God so the excuse of askin someone “closer” to God than us is blown right out of the water! You are not God and therefore cannot say for a fact who is in heaven so praying to anyone but the Father, son or holy spirit is IDOLATRY! Jesus tells you plainly to repent or else he will remove your candlestick. Worshipping the Queen of Heaven is ancient babylonian paganism and addressed in Jeremiah. May all you catholics repent of this wickedness, please!!!
Dear Joe,
I find it amusing that you think that:
Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false.”
But, it happens to be the truth. You, of course, are free to reject the truth about our Catholic Faith but you should be honest that you just reject it and not that it is weak and false.
You also say,
No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on.
OK but why does this matter? The Trinity is not defined or mentioned anywhere in the Bible either. Neither is the Incarnation of Jesus, therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses see themselves as perfectly Biblical. But, of even more significance is the fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible either. It is a new doctrine, invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago
You are correct that contacting the dead for OCCULT reasons, seeking hidden knowledge, is forbidden. But asking for intercessory prayer is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible.I am afraid that you are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the intercessor, if you mean only He can intercede on our behalf because that is not found anywhere in the Bible either.
Because Protestants only “pray” to God it seems to them that asking for our brothers and sisters in Heaven to intercede for us or for short pray for us, gets confused in their minds with idolatry. But asking for intercessory prayer is not idolatry. We are exhorted to:
James 5:16
…pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
It doesn’t say, pray for one another until death do you part. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Was that idolatry? Are prayer chains some form of idolatry?
In order for a person to be declared to be in Heaven and a Saint, a supernatural miracle must occur as a direct result of asking that person to pray for them after they have died….the miracle has to occur after the would-be Saint is dead. These miracles are then, thoroughly investigated by scientists, medical doctors, theologians, etc and finally by the Pope. The Catholic Church does not want to look foolish by declaring something to be a miracle that was faked. This miracle is taken to prove God’s power through the prayers of the Saint.
We do not believe the Saints are closer to God than Jesus but closer than many(most) of us still here in this life.
We do not worship the Queen of Heaven. That would be idolatry and heretical. We merely honor her as the Mother of Our LORD and the Queen Mother of Heaven.
When I ask a friend to help me pray on a situation I don’t create a statue of that friend and kiss or bow down to them.
True, neither do I. But as a country we DO make statues of people we don’t want to forget. And as a Church we also make statues of people we don’t want to forget. Why does everyone do this? To remember the goodness of the person.
John 14:6 No man cometh unto the Father but by me. Jesus was very clear. Not your Pope or even his own mother Mary, only Jesus only he can intercede to the father only him not dead saints. Sorry you have been misleading the world for a very long time now.
It is very TRUE that Jesus is the WAY to the Father. We do not think the Saints SAVE us.
However, we are also told to pray for one another. So, we do pray for one another. The Saints are not dead. They are alive in Heaven. And they can pray for us too. I am sorry you do not have the faith to believe they pray for us
I love this
I confirm it
I confirm it
Weng Lawrence Chayi