Amen, sister!
What a beautiful response!
Merry Christmas!

I want to thank you all for the engaging conversations. I apologize for my delay in responding but I have been taking finals this week in seminary and have been unable to respond due to time constraints.

With regards to the comments on purgatory and that Protestants believe in purgatory, I’m not going to even answer that argument because it has no basis and I have never met a Bible believing evangelical that believes in purgatory as it is no where in the Bible.
To respond to the following comment Matthew made concerning the Council of Trent, “The first canon of the Council’s Sixth Session (on Justification) says: “CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

You can’t get much more straightforward than that. The Catholic Church anathematizes anyone who teaches that we are saved by works, and always has. So let’s finally bury this old dead horse you all have been trying to ride and get a new one.

I understand that the Council of Trent has been a very butchered topic and after having studied it thoroughly, more thoroughly than I would have liked, I will show you what it clearly says. Below is the first several canons of the council of Trent. I went through it line by line. Please see my remarks after each one and please keep in mind that the Bible does clearly teach salvation is through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” Please refer to my earlier posts to see how works and faith are truly related according to the Bible. Its important to see what the Bible states in order to see teachings that clearly contradict the Bible.

So below is the council of Trent Canons:
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. –

Comments: Matthew, if the council of Trent just stopped here I would agree with you. Unfortunately it did not.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

Comments: Again this sounds right if not for the rest.

CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed”!

CANON V.- If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed”!

Comments: Put here to try and refute reformer theology concerning predestination.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema

Comments: Put here to try and refute reformer theology concerning predestination.

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

Comments: Put here to try and refute reformer theology concerning predestination.

CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.

Comments: Put here to try and refute reformer theology concerning predestination.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Comments: Notice this is saying that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone does not save. This is saying that if anyone says they have nothing to do with their salvation let them be anathema. NOTICE ANTHEMA MEANS TO BE ACCURSED AND ASSIGNED TO DAMNATION. So basically the Roman Catholic Church says if we believe that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone saves us we are damned.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

Comments: Notice this is saying that faith alone in and trusting in nothing else but Jesus Christ alone does not save. Again the word anathema is used to describe the reformers who clearly believe faith alone in Jesus alone fait to be damned. ANTHEMA MEANS TO BE ACCURSED AND ASSIGNED TO DAMNATION. So basically the Roman Catholic Church says if we believe that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone saves us we are damned.

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

Comments: You starting to see a pattern? I will just paste my previous comment: Notice this is saying that faith alone in and trusting in nothing else but Jesus Christ alone does not save. Again the word anathema is used to describe the reformers who clearly believe faith alone in Jesus alone fait to be damned. ANTHEMA MEANS TO BE ACCURSED AND ASSIGNED TO DAMNATION. So basically the Roman Catholic Church says if we believe that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone saves us we are damned.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

Comments: So this states if we believe someone is born again. Which Jesus states as a qualification for entrance into heaven and if we believe in predestination, also in the bible, we are damned. So this is damning clear teachings of God’s Word. John 3:3 states, “3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Romans 8:29 states, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

This clearly shows an anti biblical stance.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Comments: This is attacking the perseverance of God’s elect (people who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior). John 10:27-29: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
So since I believe in the Holy Spirit that indwells me as a believer and that it is not how tightly I hold onto God, but how tightly God holds onto me, I’m damned? That’s unbiblical.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

Comment: More of the same against Protestants beliefs.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

Comment: This is saying that if we say we cant keep the commands of God and if we say that it is impossible to basically be perfect after we have received grace than we are damned. However, Paul states, “Romans 3:23-28 (New King James Version)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Notice that we are all sinners and are justified by faith APART from keeping the law.
Galatians 5:16-18, states, “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.”

Notice even after we are saved we struggle, but we are NO LONGER under the law. We have been set free because we cant keep it. Now we obey God and do good works out of gratefulness of a new heart that desires to obey God. Those works clearly though have nothing to do with salvation.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
Same comment as above.

Conclusion:
Catholics clearly condemn (anathema) protestants for their belief (and what the Bible teaches) as faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Unfortunately the Council of Trent clearly states that salvation for the Catholic Church is Faith and Works and those who don’t believe it are anathema. The council of Trent is basically stating if you don’t believe in Catholic doctrine you are anathema. So essentially the Council of Trent is saying Protestants are condemned.

What is Salvation:
What saves us? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and it is not anything we can do. Therefore works have nothing to do with salvation. To imply works would have anything to do with salvation is to take away what Jesus did on the cross for us. As Paul states in Ephesians 2:9, “not of works, lest anyone should boast.” He is saying that salvation is not by anything we do or don’t do and the reason is so we will have nothing to boast about. We are sinners before a Holy and Just God. Isaiah 64:6 states, “But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.” This verse displays how nothing we do can measure up to God’s glorious standards. Therefore faith alone in Christ Jesus alone is what makes us right with God.
Therefore, if works has nothing to do with salvation than what role does works play in the Christian life? James 2:26 states, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James in this passage and in the entire chapter is showing that works is the end result of faith. True faith in the Lord Jesus Christ produces works for the glory of God. Without works to prove faith, than true faith may not exists. The works don’t save the person, but shows the person has been saved by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
How does faith produce works? When we are saved and we have experienced God’s amazing forgiveness through His grace, we have the Holy Spirit that indwells us and we are becoming more like Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 states, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”The more we become like Christ the more we care about the things He cares about. 2 Peter 3:18 states, “but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.” As we grow in Christ we will live for His glory alone and good deeds will flow, because it truly is the Lord Jesus Christ working through us.
To conclude, works has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is through the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. Works are the result of True Faith, because true faith results in regenerated heart that beats to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
I pray brothers that you all know our precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This will be my last post. May God guide you in your blogging.

The Bible was compiled to help Christians get to know God, to help them Love God and to help them be with God eternally in heaven, not as a book to be analysed and memorized for the sake of knowledge and argument.

Isn’t it said in the Bible:Judge not others?

If we truly believe in God and Jesus as our saviour we must trust him. Jesus said: I am the son of the living God, I am the way the truth and life, Love one another as I have loved you, Abide in me and I will abide in you, I am the wine and you are the branches…… In all these he wants us to believe him, trust him and follow in his way and be connected to him.

However we are now accusing each other and trynig to prove who is following the correct faith as Christians. What we must do is have faith in God and faith will lead us to be good and charitable . How can we say we are faithful to God and then do uncharitable acts? do you think we will be taken to heaven just because we say “I believe”? Its easy to confess our faith by mouth and not truly believe. When we truly believe we will achieve the fullness of life and be utilized for God’s purpose for which we were created. We will be selfeless and completely at his disposal, definetely not trying to put ourselves higher than others.

So lets stop these arguments and try to live as true Christians in Faith and doing good works since they go hand in hand. Becasue at judgement we will be asked : when I was naked did you clothe me, when I was hungry did you feed me……and so on. We can take bible phrases to prove both logics.

I am a Catholic and I do listen to other Christian preaches and this helps me to grow in faith.

Priase the Lord my soul, and praise his holy name!

If People would state what the Catholic Church actually believes with accuracy and not what their interpretation of the Catholic Church is there would be little to discuss. It is so sad that people spend sooooooo much time picking at people for their beliefs and when it comes down to it, they don’t really know what their beliefs are. I don’t find anything in that edifying or lead by the holy spirit.

You can’t get much more straightforward than that. The Catholic Church anathematizes anyone who teaches that we are saved by works, and always has. So let’s finally bury this old dead horse y’all been trying to ride and get a new one.

As for indulgences, the Catholic Church today agrees that Luther was in the right to preach against the abuses that had grown up around them in his day. In fact, so did (drum roll please) the Council of Trent! In their twenty-fifth session they had this to say: “It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining [of indulgences],–whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,–be wholly abolished.”

Please allow me one last word in regard to Purgatory. Protestants do not use the word, but every one of them that I know, (including my former self), believes in the concept. Surely we can all agree that we will no longer be our current sinful selves in heaven. No sinful thing can come into God’s holy Presence. That process that takes us from what we are now to what we will be then is Purgatory, (which is just a fancified form of “purging”). Catholics have dedicated substantial portions of theology and imagination to this, far more than Protestants, too be sure, and our musings have produced beliefs and practices that are indeed “strange” to the run-of-the-mill Evangelical, but the root doctrine of Purgatory is no fairy-tale, but an affirmation in the power of the Cross to change us from what we are to what He wants us to be. That process is going on now, in some mysterious way will finally be accomplished after our death, and will end directly before we come into the loving embrace of our Father.

The catholic church has no problem if you say that only faith will get you to heaven as long as you also do good works,

regardless if your good work proceed from your faith, or you do good works to complete your faith.

but I think the differences are semantic. faith has to be there, and good works have to be there., or else your faith is dead.

James 2:21-22
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.

I am quoting the bible as a catholic, so it’s not Catholic versus bible, You might say catholic versus (insert_your_denomination_here). since not all protestants agree with what your saying.

We reading Matthew 7:19-23 differently,

“that a tree that does not bear good fruit, will be thrown in to the fire” that to me is a indication that you must do some kind of work. (faith, love, honesty)

“Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.” this is more that works, not one or two, but to continue to do good works, even if you have been wronged. (turn other check, love your enimies, do onto others…)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven” >> it is not just faith, cause you have to have faith to say “Lord, Lord”

“but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” it not just works with selfish motives, but works that are selfless, because there are righteous.

“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles” since Jesus has been talking about works being good, he is not suddenly saying that works are bad, but he saying even if you perform prophecy and miracles don’t think your special, because these gifts were not for your benift, but the benift of others and for the glory of God, not for your glory,

“Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers” my conclusion is that you have faith by the grace of God to do good works for the glory of god, and be humble about it.

Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books

St. Cyprian said “No one is safe by his own strength, but he is safe by the Grace and mercy of God.”

Thank includes faith, and works, since there both graces given to you by god.

As far as the Catholic view of purification and purgatory (where you go to get purified for heaven) This is a stark contrast to what the bible teaches. Purgatory is made up and the idea that you can buy your way out of purgatory through indulgences is a myth that is supported only by Catholic tradition. Interestingly enough indulgences were sold to raise money for the Catholic’s church building of St. Peter’s Basilica.

I’m glad you mentioned Matthew 7:20. Lets look and examine the verse in its context.

Matthew 7:19-23 states, “19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

Notice in verse 22 Jesus explains what he means when He says those who do the will of my Father in heaven. In verse 22 Jesus talks about many who will on judgment day say they did this or that in Jesus name (notice it is all WORKS) and he will say depart from me I never KNEW YOU. Therefore this defines what the will of the Father in heaven is. The will of the Father in heaven in the verse you used is for us to know Jesus personally as Lord and Savior. We are purified through his blood and inherit his righteousness.

Sections 161-162 the Catechism says:
(161) “Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation …therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification…(162) Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man…

I agree that good works are the result of True Faith and I would add that works complete our faith.

Even Paul who no one can deny had True faith had to work at it.

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do … For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Rom 7:15-20)

our good works are part of our purification process.

Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Mat 7:20)

Therefore, if works has nothing to do with salvation than what role does works play in the Christian life? James 2:26 states, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James in this passage and in the entire chapter is showing that works is the end result of faith. True faith in the Lord Jesus Christ produces works for the glory of God. Without works to prove faith, than true faith may not exists. The works don’t save the person, but shows the person has been saved by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

How does faith produce works? When we are saved and we have experienced God’s amazing forgiveness through His grace, we have the Holy Spirit that indwells us and we are becoming more like Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 states, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”The more we become like Christ the more we care about the things He cares about. 2 Peter 3:18 states, “but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.” As we grow in Christ we will live for His glory alone and good deeds will flow, because it truly is the Lord Jesus Christ working through us.

To conclude, works has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is through the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. Works are the result of True Faith, because true faith results in regenerated heart that beats to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.