The fact that a Saint, even one as great as St. Irenaeus, taught something does not mean their teaching was infallible or that it is what the Church taught. Besides this,all kinds of heresies were taught for centuries by Catholic Heretics. But these were opposed by the Pope and the Magesterium. Ask your friend for the citation or where it can be found that the Church taught limited atonement, predestination and/or the doctrine of election. I do not believe she will be able to prove it.

The Sacred Scripture:

I Tim 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

The Catholic Church has always taught that not everyone will BE saved but as far as I know it has never taught that Christ died only for the elect. So, I would love to have her try to prove her contention.

I had a discussion yesterday with a Protestant friend of mine and I was maintaining my belief that the Catholic Church has not changed its doctrine. But he mentioned that ST Irenaeus was clearly for the doctrine of election and so was the Catholic Church and this doctrine changed years after to what we believe today that Jesus died for everyone.

Regarding the salvation of Muslims I don’t know the answers to your questions. They must seek salvation of their own souls and you must save your soul using all the knowledge you can. Leave the intricacies to Our Lord. No general answer to your questions would suffice anyway b/c each individual case is different.

We need to be able to rejoice with the rest of Heaven when we finally realize who is in Heaven. Even if it is Hitler, Manson, or Osama bin Laden. I am not saying they will be there, but we must realize that God loves their souls just as much as He loves ours. We must be merciful as He is merciful and rejoice that even someone very evil in this life can still be saved by the mercy of Christ. I have been able to rejoice in this but it was difficult it was at first. What helped is to realize that these people will need to spend a lot more time in Purgatory—a doctrine you lack in Protestantism. This lack makes it more difficult to accept how MERCIFUL Our LORD really is. Purgatory is on the way to Heaven. That is where Justice and Mercy kiss…..

I haven’t posted here in quite a while…been busy with school. Just a question: does the Vatican say that ALL Muslims are included in the plan of salvation?

See, I was thinking…verses like John 8:19 (“If you knew Me, you would know My Father also”) and John 8:42 (“…if God were your Father, you would love Me…”) and John 8:47 (“He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”) seem to be saying that if anyone truly has a relationship with God the Father, then he or she would recognize God the Son.

Now, I don’t think that if one never hears the name of Jesus, then he or she will go to hell. I do think, though, that when and if someone hears or reads about Jesus, then he or she will realize who He is.

In light of this…if these Muslims are going to heaven, then they’re probably saved, though they don’t know it. It would be odd if they were left spiritually unregenerate in this life. But if they are born again, then that means they have established a relationship with the Father. But if that’s the case, then why are they still Muslims? If they truly have a relationship with the Father, then according to those verses in John, they should have realized upon reading the Bible (and MANY Muslims have read the Bible) that Jesus is indeed divine. So…how can they remain in Islam?

In the Protestant view of salvation: They are all going to Hell.

In the Catholic view of salvation: They will be judged by our merciful God based on the knowledge they had and how they responded to that knowledge and if they did well they may enter eternal life.

You said: “Do you then say that all the people who lived in the western hemisphere are doomed to Hell b/c they did not ask Jesus to forgive their sins until the Spaniards and Jesuits and Pilgrims came to these two continents in the 1500’s AD?”

I understand this might not intellectually be the best answer, but missionaries travelling to far away lands have reported amazing accounts of people having already heard things that prepared them for the missionaries’ arrival. Here’s a link:

http://net-burst.net/hot/miracle.htm

So, I think my point remains valid.

BFHU: And we agree with this verse but it doesn’t say in there any of what you said. “I think that anyone who has passed the age of accountability MUST be saved through faith in Jesus. The Muslims have certainly never asked Jesus to forgive their sins.”

So, you see this is your interpretation of this verse. All who will be saved ARE SAVED by JESUS and no one or anything else. It was His death that opened salvation and the Father’s judgment of who has been saved by Jesus’ death and resurrection. So, you see it is still under the name of Jesus. But Catholics deny the narrow Protestant interpretation “that only those who have asked Jesus to forgive their sins can be saved.”

Do you then say that all the people who lived in the western hemisphere are doomed to Hell b/c they did not ask Jesus to forgive their sins until the Spaniards and Jesuits and Pilgrims came to these two continents in the 1500’s AD? As for the Muslims or any other group We let God judge. It is none of our business.

The God of the Quran may be a demon but individual Muslims in their heart of hearts are destined to seek their God as are all human beings. So regardless of what the Quran says or doesn’t say God will judge the soul of each and we can count on His mercy and fairness.

1. “Anyone who makes it to Heaven makes it by what God finds in their heart and the love for Him that He finds there, in spite of their ignorance of Christianity …”

Are the Muslims going to be let into heaven despite their vehement denial of Jesus’ divinity? And what about Acts 4:12? I think that anyone who has passed the age of accountability MUST be saved through faith in Jesus. The Muslims have certainly never asked Jesus to forgive their sins.

And simply put…please read the Quran’s description of Allah (especially the part about Allah and nonbelievers), and then compare it with the Bible’s description of YHWH. From what we can see of the heart of Allah and YHWH, it just seems so clear to me that the god the Muslims worship is NOT the same God the Christians worship.

2. “…neither was it thought by the Jews that God was a trinity.”

From what I’ve read, I disagree. I think the Jews did indeed know that YHWH is triune. Here’s a link: http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html

3. I’m not too clear about this, but…http://www.ntrmin.org/images/questions/Cath-Prot-include.htm

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on planet Earth. Christ’s representative in time and space. He seeks the salvation of all souls. And he is affirming those things that are good and true in Islam. T(hey are not true of the radical forms of Islam.) This does not mean that the Pope believes Islam is another path, among many, to salvation. That is the heresy of indifferentism. By finding common ground the Pope is hoping to overcome obstacles in the minds of Muslims so that they might be attracted to Christianity and convert.

By saying that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation he merely means that God desires that all men be saved and He will save them but if so then it is NOT through Islam that they are saved but throught Jesus Christ and HIS Church. Anyone who makes it to Heaven makes it by what God finds in their heart and the love for Him that He finds there, in spite of their ignorance of Christianity per se. It is all through the loving MERCY of Christ.

This is a very big difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. And it is such a blessing because the God of the Catholic Faith is truly more merciful and understanding than the God of Protestantism. Our Lord judges a soul based on what they knew and how they responded to that knowledge (ROM. 1). He does not condemn a soul to Hell b/c they knew nothing of Christianity or through invincible ignorance, or due to the evil acts of bad “Christans”. For instance, in Nazi Germany, Jews were both saved by Christians and betrayed by Christians.

2) Muslims believe in ONE GOD. This is True. Through Ishmael they carried this religious truth down through the generations of Arabs. The Catholic Faith affirms what is true in other religions, but also attempts to correct what is wrong and draw all men to Christ. True Allah may not be triune but neither was it thought by the Jews that God was a trinity. We are not saved by correct knowledge but by loving hearts that worship Our Lord as best as we know. Our Father welcomes the love of His children even when they don’t know Him completely.

Muslims are not included in the plan of salvation in the same way as Jesus or the Catholic Church is a part of the plan of salvation. It is just that Muslims too can be saved. But, it is much more difficult for them b/c they lack so much Truth and the grace of the Sacraments. But God can take all of this into account for each and every individual. “To whom much is given MUCH is required.” That is you and me.

3) Protestants are included in the plan of salvation just as the Muslims but they have the great helps of much more Truth in their journey to God than Muslims. The documents of Vatican II refer to the Jews as our elder brothers in the Faith and to Protestants as our separated brethren in the Faith.

As CS Lewis illustrated: The Trinity is like a fire in a cold room. Those who are closest to it are the most warmed and receive the most benefit. Those a bit more removed less benefit but still much warmth and light. Those farther away less and less as the location drifts further away from the fire, but still some light and some warmth.

All religions have some “light” of Truth. We affirm that and based on our common beliefs we try to build on this to draw all men to Christ.
Just like missionaries have done since the advent of Christianity.

God will be the judge regarding someone who is highly opposed to the Catholic Church. God knows if this animosity is from true knowledge or if it is based completely on misinformation and lies. This is usually the case, especially for Protestants. If what the many anti-Catholics teach about the Catholic Church were true, Catholics would hate The Church too. But it is mostly lies, distortions, misunderstandings, and jumping to uncharitable conclusions. So, God will judge even anti Catholic Protestants with mercy, if they are truly invincibly ignorant. We will all be judged on what we knew and how we responded to that knowledge. Did we run away from truth out of self-will or cowardice? Have you read my conversion story?

I’m a Protestant, so please don’t berate me or anything if I misunderstand or misrepresent anything in my questions here. They are somewhat related to changes in Rome’s claims, and the questions themselves are rather closely related. Unfortunately, this might be somewhat long, so please bear with me.

1. Why exactly is the Vatican allowed to change its position on Islam? From this link (http://bereanbeacon.org/articles/The_Papacy_and_Islam.pdf), it seems that the Vatican has changed its position on Islam from being opposed to it to declaring that “Included in the plan of salvation are Muslims…” Which leads to 2…

2. This isn’t intended to be a stumper, but…I mean, Muslims claim that Allah is the same God as the God of the Bible, but from my reading of the Bible and of verses in the Quran, it just seems pretty clear to me that Allah and YHWH are NOT the same God. Allah isn’t triune, and he loves those who love him, while YHWH loves unbelievers as well.

Furthermore, the unforgivable sin in Islam is to confess the deity of Jesus. So basically, the question is: with these glaring differences, how can Muslims be included in the plan of salvation? Which leads to 3…

3. According to the Vatican, are Protestants excluded from the plan of salvation?

Let me clarify…for a while, I was extremely opposed to Catholicism (my animosity has died down somewhat, though). For one, I came across those teachings and quotes about Mary, and my instant reaction was “WHAT?!?!?!” I was outraged by such blasphemy. I’m sure there have been and are many other Protestants like me in that regard. So, after being “introduced” to Roman Catholicism, many Protestants probably stop there and reject Catholicism outright.

Now, if Rome is the Church that Jesus founded, I don’t think that anyone who is highly opposed to that Church would enter heaven. But…according to the Vatican, are the Protestants who truly love God with all their heart and soul and mind and strength, but who are outraged at what the Vatican teaches, going to hell, while the Muslims who vehemently deny the Trinity and the deity of Jesus going to heaven?