From a comment on God Cannot Die
BFHU:“For instance, it is wrong to slap my brother but it is exponentially more wrong to slap my father. The action is the same in both cases but the sin’s gravity increases greatly when it is against my father versus against my brother.”
Q.Are you kidding me? That is wrong on so many levels. You are essentially saying that the slap to the sibling is not right but its not that bad compared to the slap of the parent? Are you for real?
A. I am amazed that you think both actions are equal.
Q. Surely, a Christian such as you claim, would know that such actions are wrong in both accounts.
A. I do and I said both actions were wrong.
Q.Do you think that God operates what way?
A. Yes. I know He does
Q. There is no such thing as a big sin and a small sin in the eyes of God.
A. Where does it say that in Scripture? That is just not true. Even when I was a Protestant I heard this idea that all sin is equal in God’s eyes and I thought it was ridiculous from what I knew about God and scripture. I would rather be gossiped about than murdered. There IS a big difference between sins. It just seemed pretty disrespectful towards God to think He saw no difference in the gravity of various sins.
Q. One small sin is enough to keep you out of His kingdom—period.
A. Where does it say that in Scripture? I think God is a little more gracious and discerning than that. I think you are giving me Protestant Tradition not scripture. There is this passage:
James 2:For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
So, there is a sense in which all sin is equal.(breaking all of it) That is, that any sin, large or small ,separates us from God so that we all need a Savior. Sort of like a cut in our skin, bleeds. Both large cuts and small cuts bleed. So, in that sense, they are equal in the fact that they bleed. But, in addition to this similarity, there are cuts that are life threatening and much more deadly than others. Yet they are all equal in the sense that they all bleed. But they are unequal in the threat they pose to life.
Yes, sin, big or small, separates us from God. We need to be saved by Christ. But once we are saved we still sin. Some sin is deadly to the life of our soul and our relationship to God. Even Scripture speaks of the difference in gravity of sin. Please see these:
God calls some sin an abomination–>Here He doesn’t call every sin an abomination.
God especially hates 6 or 7 things–> Here
So it would seem that God has some pretty strong feelings about certain sins. He also especially despises people who take advantage of widows and orphans. And St. Paul gives us lists of especially serious sins that will prevent the attainment of Heaven.
Q. In His eyes they are all the same size. The guy who steals post-it-notes from work will go to the same fiery pit as the guy who molested a 10 year old girl.
A. Perhaps you could give us some scripture to back up these assertions.
Because, St. John clearly talks about two different categories of sin
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
The Catholic Church names these two categories of sin Mortal (sin that leads to death) and Venial (sin that does not lead to death)
Filed under: God
Here is your proof that ALL who sin no matter big or small, will be dammned to hell unless he repents his sin and asks Jesus into his heart. The following verse lists sins that are both major and minor in our eyes, but in God’s eyes, it is all the same. A dish is considered dirty whether it has a dot of food or an entire plate of food on it.”He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8
Those are all pretty major sins it seems to me. My point is made by your quotation. The list of sins deserving the second death did not include: Critical thoughts about others, gossip, impatience, failure to help the guy with the flat tire, gluttony, failure to be attentive to your spouse, etc.
There are many that would not consider liars to be as offensive as murderers. In fact, most would agree that a liar should not get as sever a punishment as a murderer should. And what about the cowardly. They should be punished the same as a murderer? But, God says they all will. It is in that verse – the COWARDLY, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those practicing magic arts, the idolaters, and ALL LIARS. In that same verse, there is your proff that the same punishment (death in the lake of fire, or eternal damnation in hell) applies to all levels of sin
The verse reads “But the fearful…and all liars, shall have their pari in a lake which burneth withfire and brimstone: which is the second death.” This says their part clearly placeing different values in different sins it says their part not equal parts.
i totally agree that not all sin is the same in God’s eyes but it does effect us in some way and we will always be punished for our sin
John 19-8-11
He WHO BETRAYED ME TO THEE HAS THE GREATER SIN.” jESUS tells Palateall sin is not egual
and we shall pay to the last penney , last mite , and they shall have a hever sentence.
It’s all in the good book
A heavier sentence? The concept about varying “degrees” of sin that is a little off, is that it suggests that by lying rather than killing a man, I have offended God less, and thus God will punish me less. However, anything that I do is disobeying God, and I’ve always gotten the strange feeling that their is only one punishment for that – eternity in hell. “For the wages of sin is death…” Rom 6:23.
“Finish the verse!” You may say, “it talks about salvation!” True, the verse then says “but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” That proves my point.
By saying I have offended God less, you suggest that I might receive a lighter punishment, well, it clearly says that no matter what, the punishment is death. By suggesting that there is less of a punishment, you imply that I can atone for my sin, because the gift of God is eternal life, right? But that’s through Christ Jesus. “For it is y grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:9.
There’s no way you can atone for your sin, and no matter what you do, be a lie or murder or adultery, the punishment is death.
True we are saved by God’s grace. What you have to understand though is that Paul constantly made a distinction between “works of the Mosaic Law” through which no man was justified(example: having a yearly sacrifice implies you are guilty of sin) and “works of faith” which is, essentially, loving your neighbor.
When we are judged upon death it is going to be based upon our actions.
Jesus received merits for carrying his Cross, and earned the right to sit at the right hand of the Father. So when we pick up our own crosses, we also gain glorification but it is not our merit that is rewarded but rather Christ’s merit that we have allowed to work through us in our own lives.
Greetings in Christ.
This discussion is very interesting, because I think it’s lacking a proper understanding of sin and the necessity of Christ’s death on the cross. Romans 3:23 “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” and Romans 6:23 “for the wages of sin is death”. In order to understand sin we need to understand how God sees it.
God hates sin, no matter how small, he hates it. He hates it so much that under the Mosaic law it is required for blood to be spilled for atonement. But at the same time, God is loving, and merciful, and although we are like an adulterous wife (Read Hosea) God is a good husband who refuses to break his wedding vow.
So, God sent His Son: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not die, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). This is the gospel, and it requires a proper understanding of God, sin, and the weight of sin. Without the weight of all sin – and the Bible describes that some are worse than others – then Christ’s death is meaningless. Christ died for all, not just the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, etc. Christ died for moralists who consider themselves good people only in contrast to the murderers and rapists, because even their thoughts are full of sin, in the way they judge others, hate others, and treat others – no man or woman is free from sin!
When asking are some sins worse than others (which is a good question with a biblical answer) we must start off with the knowledge of how bad sin is to begin with. Sin sucks, it’s the reason we’re separate from God! But thanks to God that He gave us his Son to forgive us for our sins.
The catholic church breaks down sin into venial and mortal. Biblically, there are some sins worse than others. In the definition of “venial” and “mortal” the church teaches something contrary to the bible. Venial sins can be forgiven on one’s own, when mortal sins require a mediator – a priest. This is against the gospel – “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:8). God gave His Son for all sins, Jesus forgives us for all sins, He separates them as far as east is from west (Psalm 103), and while we are not perfect yet, we will be when die. Until then, we are given a new heart to obey and honor God (Deuteronomy 30:6), and when we die God will pardon us from condemnation by the blood of Christ, and not our deeds. The man who died next to Jesus on the cross was a thief. He admitted his sins to Jesus, and Jesus promised him eternal life. When the that man died he had nothing to present to God the Father but the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: “And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Hebrews 10:10).
I hope this is some food for thought. Without a proper understanding of the gospel, it’s hard to understand just how great Jesus is!
With grace, peace, and love in Jesus,
Nathan
Also you should consider this about the atonement thing:
If Jesus died/atoned for our sins, why do we still grow old and die, which is after all, the punishment for Original Sin?
If he paid the penalty with his death, why are we still being penalized with mortality? Why do women have pain in child birth?
The answer is this:
Jesus’ death only did away with the ETERNAL consequences of sin(ex: not being allowed into heaven) not the temporary(ex: “Ok everyone I died on the cross so now there’s no reason why any of you should have to suffer a natural death!). Just think, death was a temporary punishment for ONE sin(the original sin), but what that tells us is that each and every individual sin has a TEMPORARY punishment attached to it!
So when I pick up a little old lady from our church and her hair is flattened down in the back and she asks me”honey does my hair look just horrible?” and I reply, “you look beautiful”. This little white lie will be judged the same as rape, murder, stealing?
That doesn’t seem right to me.
An aspect of this argument I have not seen addressed to this point is that when Paul is describing people as liars, idolaters, or adulterers, he is speaking of people who have made a lifestyle of these sins. These were not people who had, after receiving Salvation, slipped up a few times, but people who were choosing to live in their sin and not seeking repentance for it. All sin is equal in deserving a punishment of death, yes. But once one has received their salvation and lives a repentant life constantly seeking closer union with God, “degrees” of sin no longer becomes an issue. If one is truly living with God in the center of their heart, things like idolatry, adultery, lying, etc., should also fall to the wayside. But because of their Salvation and God’s propitiation through Christ, forgiveness is given to the believer.
In one sense you can say that we have all been saved by Jesus’ sacrifice, but our salvation is a work in progress throughout our entire lives—not a completed act as your post seems to suggest. If it were a completed act then there is no need to “work out your own salvation in fear and trembling”. What do we have to fear exactly?
Why separation from God, or course.
Sin, no matter what degree, will prevent us from entering into heaven.
Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Daniel,
Please point out what in my post seems to suggest that our salvation is a completed act. I would like to correct it b/c I don’t believe that. Of course Jesus’ salvific act is complete.
“But once one has received their salvation…”
I live in the south and I often hear that exact phrase in reference to other things like “sinner’s prayer” and “get saved”. I hope you understand my confusion.
Thanks Daniel. I said:
I don’t think I can reword this without it becoming cumbersome. As you said:
And i agree that “our salvation is a work in progress throughout our entire lives: