ADAM: praying to the dead (saint or not) is forbidden in scripture.
BFHU: Where does scripture actually say that “praying to the dead is forbidden“? Asking a dead person for direction is DIVINATION! This is what is condemned in the Deut. 18 passage. Divination is NOT in any way comparable to the request for intercessory prayer for those who are ALIVE in CHRIST.
ADAM: Stop twisting James 5:16 to make your point. That passage based on its context is clearly speaking of praying for each other (we being alive) and not praying to a dead person to pray for something.
BFHU: I have not twisted James 5:16
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
The members of the Body of Christ, whether in Heaven or on Earth do pray for one another. The Saints in Heaven are righteous. So, their prayers are effective and accomplish much. My interpretation is different than yours . That is all. We, unlike Protestants do not view those who have died in the flesh to be dead and gone but Souls ALIVE IN CHRIST.
ADAM: Praying to (not for) someone is worshiping them! Your actions are ascribing power to that person which they do not posses and that only God possesses. The Bible forbids not only prayer for the dead but also to the dead (regardless if they were saints or not)
BFHU: Praying to someone is NOT worshiping them. We DO NOT ascribe personal power to the Saints but it is rather the power of God and the will of God that determines the answer to our request for intercessory prayer. I
t only seems like we are doing this b/c you have only been taught to pray to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, in your mind and in your experience all of your prayer is directed to deity. But we speak to our fellow Christians in Heaven through prayer and we know the difference between asking them for intercessory prayer and worship of deity. It is extremely uncharitable for Protestants to jump to the conclusion that a Catholic praying in front of a picture or statue of Mary is worshiping her. It only appears so to them b/c they have never experienced the difference between prayer and worship. To them it is all one and the same.
Where does the Bible forbid prayers for the dead? In the Greek Old Testament, from which Jesus quoted and the Apostles received from the Jewish people, there is a commendation of prayers for the dead in:
II Maccabees 12: 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
ADAM: Speaking of worshipping Mary, what about worshipping the Pope? How many Catholics worship the pope and he allows it. He’s referred to by many different names: His Holiness, Holy See, Prince Of Peace, etc, and people bow down to him with his
BFHU: We do not worship the pope. We honor him. Bowing down is not exclusively a sign of worship. It can be. But it depends upon what is in the heart. Did President Obama worship the Arab king last month when he bowed to him? Does bowing or kneeling before the Queen of England make all who do the worshipers of the Queen? They even used to address dignitaries as “Your worship” but it was merely a sign of deep respect not actual WORSHIP as in that reserved for GOD.
ADAM: When the pagans tried to worship Paul the Apostle in Acts, he quickly rebuked them and told them that he was a mere man like they were. Yet I don’t see the pope showing any disapproval when they worship him.
Paul was right to forbid them to worship him. But the pope KNOWS we do not worship him but are merely showing deep respect for the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth in time.
Please believe me when I say I am not making any of this up. I used to view the Catholic Church exactly like you do. We and many, many Protestants are taught things about the Catholic Church that are unfounded lies, half-truths, and assumptions based on nothing but opinion. These have been passed down from one generation to the next for 500 years. Some are almost exact quotes of Martin Luther’s caulmny.
I would recommend my post Necromancy and Prayers to the Saints.
Filed under: Prayer to Saints
I was thinking of the continual conversation on prayer to Mary and/or Saints and thought of this last Sunday:
“I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.”
That is our Prayer during Mass. It doesn’t get much clearer that we are asking for prayer FROM Mary, angels, saints and our brothers and sisters TO the Lord, our God.
I don’t understand how that is confusing to anyone?!
There is only one we can pray to and he alone can save us from our sins. Mary can not do a thing for us. If she could she would not have let her Son die on that cross. The Bible clearly states In 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and on mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. So why pray to others for what he alone can do. Did the any one else die for you or me on that cross? Please let me know if they did. Jesus is the truth and the light and the only way.
Julieann,
It is a misunderstanding that we “Pray TO Mary”. We do use that terminology b/c she is in Heaven but the truth of the matter is that we are asking her to PRAY FOR US. She does not answer our prayers. God answers our prayers.
Intercessory prayer is believed in by Protestants. So, do you believe that when you ask a friend to pray for you that you are usurping the ONE MEDIATORSHIP of Jesus.
Protestants ask brothers and sisters to pray for them. Catholics ask brothers and sister to pray for them. The difference is that Catholics act upon our belief that all of our brothers and sisters are alive in Heaven and on Earth. Protestants tend to feel a total loss of connection to their Brothers and Sisters in Christ when their bodies die. We keep that connection alive b/c they ARE alive. Catholic theology is full and rich. Protestant theology is narrow and withered by comparison. All that Protestant have they received from the Catholic Church.
Its funny that you say there is only ONE mediator between God and men. That mediator is Jesus. Correct? Regarding prayer in communion with the Blessed Mother, are you aware that the Chatechism of the Catholic Chuch paragraph 2674 ALSO states that “Jesus is the only mediator, the way of our prayer?” So, you see… Don’t believe what your “church” TOLD you about Jesus’ ONE true Church. Instead, find out what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches. For every objection to the Catholic Church that you have, there is an answer. There is only ONE truth. Truth is not something you can go “church” shopping for. Please ponder this test: If you can shop around to find a “church” that says what you want it to say, there’s a problem. But, that’s what protestantism is. The “TRUTH” is defined as what the “pastor” decides the “spirit” has revealed to him/her in the Bible (a Catholic Book). But if you don’t like that “TRUTH”, you can go to the “church” on the next corner to find another “pastor”. Can you see the problem here? But, the Catholic Church has been under the same management for 2000 years. Jesus is in charge. This is all said out of love. Please don’t be offended. God bless you.
Hi bfhu, I think the question here is the basis of the scriptures, I believe Macabees are not included since its part of Apocrypha, isn’t it? I cannot find Macabees in KJV which I believe most reformists/Protestants and alike are being in used. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
Michael,
Maccabees was a part of the Greek OT known as the Septuagint. Most of Jesus’ quotations of the OT can be discerned to come from the Greek OT rather than the Hebrew OT, which means that Jesus accepted the Greek OT (Septuagint) as authoritative. The Catholic Church simply received this OT and canonized it along with the NT Scriptures. It was originally included in the KJV and later still included but at the back of the Bible.
You might find the following posts of interest.
Did Catholics add books to the Bible?
Who Decided Which Books Should Be in the Bible?
Sola Scriptura
Septuagint
The problem for those who are sola scriptura is that there is nothing in scripture that commands it. (sola scriptura is a tradition of men)
BFHU: The following articles explain in detail why the Apocrypha isn’t classed as Holy inspired and therefore not considered authoritative for Christian doctrine. I hope they help you.
The Apocrypha: is it scripture?
The Concept and Importance of Canonicity – by Greg Behnsen
The Canon of Scripture – F.F. Bruce
Roman Catholic and Orthodox Faith Examined and The Apocrypha
Apocrypha and related topics; Listed at: gotquestions.org
Wow Angela, I am sure yours and other protestants interpretations are correct since they have been arround for the last 400 or so years. Oh, wait a minute that isn’t a good argument since the Catholic church has been around for 2000 years. Maybe a better argument would be that the Catholic church just copied the Old Testament. This one would be better if it wasn’t for all of the scriptures that were not included when the Church did canonize the scripture. Consider this everyone, do you go to your church because it’s right for you? Or do you go because that is exactly where God wants you to be?
Wow!
You guys should come to my Anti-Catholic Form!
It’s called “Defender of The Faith”.
http://www.FideiDefensor.ProBoards.com
There’s plenty there for you guys to address!
I challenge the Catholics here to go there if you can defend your faith!
Everybody else is welcomed too!
Come get the annointed word there!
No matter how much info Catholic will get, he might not be able “see” truth… I was there before, I know how it was for me. You have to be born in Christ before your eyes will be able to see the Truth of Scriptures, or else its just wasting the time and energy. Knowledge and understanding will come based on scriptures alone, leaving tradition behind. Catholics are tradition based, barely scriptural. Honestly, being Catholic it’s all about “mystery” and “unknowing less”, ask any Catholic, he will never be able to tell for sure if he is the son of God? He will hang in the “air” till the death will come.. and hoping for purgatory as the “middle” option, for he does not believe in Christ’s Blood power, which washes ALL sin away..
I have never heard any Catholic talk like that. I don’t know who you have been talking to but it seems you were way off.
Sounds like the version of Catholicism taught to me by the Protestant Churches I grew up in.
Not the TRUTH I know now.
See the truth? I’ve seen the truth, heard the truth, ate and drank the truth, have you? Inspired scripture was already debated years ago, well before Martin Luther came along. Next item, barely scriptural? Have you even been to a Mass? Everything in it is based on sripture and the tradition of the Apostles! If they had it wrong or were even going to be wrong in the future, why on earth would God breathe the Holy Spirit upon them? We eat at Mass just like the Apostles did, this is the center point of Catholic faith. Have you knealt before the Lord? I get to at least every week! The ‘tradition of man’ argument is so weak because the men that first carried out these traditions were the Apostles themselves. I’m sorry, but if I am going to pick a side to be on, I’m gonna go with the Church that the Apostles founded, the Church that the Fathers (those who canonized our bible and determined what was sacred scripture) went to. Maybe I’m just a traditional sort of guy, but I don’t see the point of being “untraditionally reformed” when it comes to how God wants me to worship Him.
Dear Born Again,
We are born again in baptism. We receive the graces needed to follow the Truth.
Where in scripture does it say that “Knowledge and understanding will come based on scriptures alone, leaving tradition behind”????
Especially since St. Paul exhorts his readers to cling to the traditions he taught them.
All that you have said about Catholics and our beliefs is untrue and based on lies, twisted truth, half truth, and/or traditional Protestant teaching about the Catholic Church that has been around since Luther and Calvin first spewed them forth.
WOW: I am a CHRISTIAN.
BFHU: Me too. We, Catholics, too.
WOW: That’s what they were first called in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and that is what Peter said he was proud to be called (1 Pe 4:16). I’m not sure why everyone insists on calling themselves by any other title, other than referring to the only name given under heaven that can save you (Act 4:12).
BFHU: “Catholic” comes from the Greek word kataholos meaning universal. The Christian Church has been called “The Catholic Church” at least since 110 AD. We know this from a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch:
There is nothing is this quote that indicates St. Ignatius is coining a new phrase but just the contrary, he is clarifying where one can reliably find Jesus Christ, valid Eucharist, and the authentic CATHOLIC CHURCH.
WOW: I have one question for everybody: At what point did Jesus Christ stop being the way, truth, life, and the one to whom we look for guidance?
BFHU:….UHMMMM….BEATS ME…..We beleive Christ is all of the above.
WOW:At what point did His life stop being the model for us?
BFHU:Who are you referring to? He is our model.
WOW:Read the gospels and Acts, the story of the first church, Please!!!
BFHU:We in the Catholic Church have been reading and hearing the Gospels the rest of the Bible, every Sunday for 2000 years. Who exactly is it that you are so sure have never read them?
WOW:Did Christ or the Apostles:
- Teach us to talk to Mary or to other people to pray for us after there bodies had experienced the first death?
BFHU:Where did He say it is forbidden?
WOW:Didn’t Christ teach us to pray saying “Our Father…” (Matt 6:9)? (Yes, the Bible teaches about 2 deaths, the first one of the body, the Sheol of the Old Testament, the second of the eternal soul, being cast into the lake of fire at the judgment, your body is going to die unless you remain until His coming) Read 1 Thess, 1 Cor 15, Rev 20
-Also please don’t pray to angels, they are servants of God, messengers, they are not your mediator to God, and neither are people.
BFHU:We don’t pray TO Angels. We pray for their intercessory prayer. Ditto for the Saints in Heaven.
WOW: Christ is!! only Christ!!!
BFHU:Christ is….what…exactly….?
WOW: Read Hebrews
- Teach us about a place (purgatory) where we go when we die that we can be liberated from if we died in unbelief or deserving condemnation?
BFHU:We don’t believe that Purgatory is for unbelievers or those who are condemned. We do believe that unbelievers who, through no fault of their own were not Christian, can be saved through God’s mercy. We are judged based on what we knew and how we responded to that knowledge. No one will go to Hell because they were ignorant of Christ. ie. babies who die at birth, or through abortion, the Indians on the North American Continent before the advent of Christianity, or those before the death of Jesus. All of these will be judged by God based on what we knew and how we responded to God.
WOW: There are 2 types of people who die. Saved in Christ, dead apart from Christ. The saved will rise at His coming to life, the dead will rise to be judged after the 1000 year reign, their works will not save them and they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read the entire New Testament
BFHU:There are two types of people….but as defined above. Those who go to Purgatory will have been judged to be worthy of Heaven once they are purified in Purgatory.
WOW:- Did Jesus Teach us to set up a system of priests to which we must confess to for forgiveness of sin? Ok, so yes it’s Ok to share sin with our brother, it’s good to open ourselves up like that, but a lot of people think that you have to tell the priest or it doesn’t count. Christ is our High Priest. Read Hebrews.
BFHU:Where is Scripture does it say what you assert? In the OT there were ministerial priests and the priesthood of all the believers. So also in the Church. Jesus certainly did set up confession in
Here we see Jesus annointed ONLY the disciples, the first priests and bishops of the Christian Church, with a special dispensation of the Holy Spirit. He gave them authority to forgive or not sin. The only way to do this would be if they heard confession audibly. And we know historically that this was done since the earliest era of the Church.
WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us that the communion supper should be imagined as real human flesh and blood?
WOW:Remember Christ said His words are spirit (i.e. spiritually symbolic and important), the spirit gives life Jn 6:63.
BFHU Exactly, but the Spirit is in NO WAY just a symbol. That which is spiritual is an unseen reality. It is in NO WAY equivalent to a symbol.
WOW:We eat Christ spiritually, not physically like cannibals.
BFHU True that it is not cannibalistic. But neither is is symbolic. That would be impossible. In the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke, to symbolically “eat the flesh” or “drink the blood” of someone meant to persecute and assault him. Did you know that there are several places in the Bible where “eating flesh and drinking blood” is used in a symbolic or metaphorical way? Lets take a look at what this phrase means when it is used metaphorically.
So, we see that when “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” is used metaphorically or symbolically in the Bible it means destruction and murder. And it is still true today. If you got a letter that said someone wanted “to eat your flesh and drink your blood” you would take it as an evil threat of some kind and not an invitation to loving communion. Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 but no one would know just what He had in mind until the Last Supper. Communion in His body and blood is literal but not cannibalistic. Jesus feeds us spiritually with Bread from Heaven. Only the faithful stayed with him. Only faith helps us believe Him.
WOW: He is the bread from heaven. Spiritually. Remember, many of His disciples left Him that day because they thought He was saying to literally eat His body. Jn 6:66
BFHU Yes, many left Him BECAUSE THEY KNEW HE WAS SPEAKING LITERALLY AND NOT SPIRITUALLY OR SYMBOLICALLY. Did you know that in the Greek, when people began to question His seeming cannibalism, he switched from a general word for “eat” to a word that means “chew” or “gnaw.” Jesus did not try to explain in any way that he was not speaking literally.
WOW:Where did Jesus Teach us to erect statues of His mom and make beaded necklaces to hold and pray to His mom with? Teach us to erect statues of dead people, great servants of God or not, and put them in our churches?
BFHUBut where in Scripture is it forbidden? Statues and pictures were used to remind thousands of generations of Christians, unable to read, about the stories and people of the Bible, as well as heroes of the faith. That is a very good thing and still a wonderful tradition in our churches. There is nothing scripturally wrong with it.
-WOW: Is Peter really the Rock upon whom the church is founded, or is Christ the eternal Rock whom Peter confessed, the real foundation?
BFHU Both. There is no denying that Jesus said to Peter
” Rock, upon this Rock I will build my Church”
WOW: Peter is not strong enough to be the foundation of the Church of Christ, only Christ is!!!
BFHUNot by himself, but supported by Jesus he can do all things, in Christ.
WOW: We all represent Christ here!! Christ in us is the true Rock of the Church.
BFHU That is true in one way. But it does not refute the Truth that Jesus founded a Church and He founded it upon Peter and gave him and his successors the Keys of the Kingdom to bind and loose. (a Hebrew idiom that means to rule)
WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us to believe that Mary never sinned and has already ascended to heaven, making her equal to Jesus Christ?
BFHU Mary is not equal to Jesus. We believe in the Trinity. Mary is fully human and not divine. She is human in exactly the same way as Adam and Eve were in the fullness and sinlessness of humanity. Adam and Eve sinned. Mary by the graces and power of God, not her own strength, did not sin. Gabriel addresses her as FULL OF GRACE. This is her title. If one is FULL of grace there is no room for sin.
WOW: Christ is the only one who is sinless!!
BFHUNo. Many humans may have a fallen nature but are not guilty of sin. Innocent babies and children who have not reached the age of accountablility. Nevertheless, they all need a savior. As did Mary. She was saved from a fallen nature, before she sinned .
WOW: We all await the resurrection, He is the firstfruits. You deny the grace of God when you say that Jesus couldn’t be born by a woman, a normal human like you and me, yes a servant of God, but human, with sin, dead, alive in the spirit, yes, but powerless to save you.
BFHU: God could have been born by any woman He chose. But why not create a pure vessel to reside in for nine months and to be your mother?
WOW: Read Acts. Baptism is a symbolic act by a conscious choice, by a repentant person to turn from sin and choose Christ for salvation. That’s what Baptism is. A baby can’t do that. A baby can’t repent. A baby doesn’t know what sin is. You can splash all the water on their head that you want, but don’t call it what it isn’t. It’s not baptism. Jesus got baptized when he was 30.
BFHU Please see my post Infant Baptism You make many assertions in your comments about baptism. Please back them up with scripture. I believe that what you have said above are Protestant Traditions about Baptism. Nowhere are they asserted in Sacred Scripture.
WOW: I know these aren’t all the teachings and maybe you’ll say they aren’t right, and maybe you don’t practice them, but you are still supporting them. And I know also that many Protestant churces are full of idolatrous worship and bad doctrine. If you look up the true doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, you will find these and many others. If these teachings aren’t found in the Scriptures, even in the Apocrypha which I enjoy, good Jewish history, then where are they from? Man? You can try to support these things with interpretation from the Scripture but in the end, they just aren’t there and you are left standing on the teachings of deceived men.
BFHU We accept and believe in the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture. BUT…it must be interpreted. We have historical, 2000 year-old, interpretations to draw upon. Protestant interpretations are only about 500 years old or less. I will go with the ancient faith, thank you.
WOW: The Bible is the only objective (unbiased) source we have to know that what we teach is the truth. If man’s teaching can’t be found in the Scriptures, then how can we know it’s true? Jesus taught the Law and the Prophets, the Scriptures. That’s what we have to teach today, the Scriptures. Don’t you want to know that you know the truth? for sure?
BFHU I do want the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. I have examined the scriptures and the historical claims of the Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church. I did not want to be Catholic but I had no Choice when I examined the competing claims or the Protestants and the Catholics. You might want to read my Conversion Story
WOW: Please, read the Scriptures.
BFHUAs you may have seen from my Conversion Story, I have certainly done this extensively.
WOW: You must worship in spirit and truth. The apostles didn’t even imagine the things that the Catholic church is doing.
BFHU How can you KNOW what the apostles imagined? John clearly says that the world could not contain all the books if they were to be written about everything Jesus did. John 21:25
WOW: Turn from idolatry. Repent. Turn to the Lord, Jesus Christ.
BFHU I know you mean well.
It’s time to abandon denominations and divisions in the body of Christ.
BFHU I couldn’t agree more. All those who left the One, Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church should return to her.
WOW:All Christians everywhere form the body of Christ, whether you agree completely with your brother or not. Love is the fulfillment of the Law. Love God, Love your neighbor. The apostles did this. The apostles were Christians. They weren’t Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Orthodox, Lutheran, or whatever you want. They were Christians. They believed in Christ, the Lord, and they taught good doctrine from the Scriptures.
BFHU The Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Jesus on His apostles. No other Christian Church can claim a 2010 year history.
WOW:Remember, they didn’t even have a New Testament. They taught from the Old Testament.
BFHU You are one of the few Protestants I have encountered who know this.
WOW: And you surely can’t find defense for most of the church’s problems today in the Old Testament. There is no room for it. God is sovereign, holy, true, just, merciful, loving. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, He is the Word and the Truth. Teach the truth in the church and you will see revival. Teach the gospel and nothing else. Just Jesus. That’s all.
BFHU All churches have problems b/c of the humans who belong to them, just like the Israelites of the OT. But God never abandoned them or started a new chosen people when they sinned.
It is kind of interesting how WOW hits upon virtually every mistaken myth of the beliefs of the Catholic church. As a protestant it was all the things I was taught about the Catholic Church too! WOW is so misguided and “wow” so was I. After over 2 years of in depth study of the Church I can say I was mislead on many protestant views of the Catholic Church! I encourage people to just find out the Truth! It is not as you have heard!
Happy Weekend!
BFHU – Your responses are very measured and well done. Thank you for responding so kindly, but definitively. Keep up the good work!
Catholicsview:
Exactly! Pam is a spirit filled Christian girl! God bless you! One of the people who led me to this faith is Pam and her wonderfully patient answers! I know our Lord smiles on her work every minute of the day!!!
Thanks Alecia. Hey! Easter is just around the corner. You must be excited. I am excited for you!
God Bless Pam Forrester bfhu.wordpress.com
It is amazing to me how lost Catholics are. Nothing but repetition and useless prayers. Doing things with no soul, just for the sake of doing them.
BFHU: Wow! How are you able to judge the hearts of Catholics at prayer? ”
“Let’s say the hail mary 50 times.” Not scriptural, just tradition and made up stuff that nobody needs to do. Why not just follow the bible?
BFHU: Are not all prayers “made up stuff” so to speak? When you pray do you ever use your own words to pray?
We do follow the Bible. Nothing in our faith contradicts it. Our Faith only contradicts Protest-antism
It doesn’t say, “thou must say 50 hail mary’s” in the bible, so why do it?
BFHU: It is a Biblical prayer for the most part and what is not in scripture is doctrinal.
Hail Mary full of grace blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
This part of the prayer is doctrinal. Jesus was God. Mary was His mother. Mary was the Mother of God. We are sinners. Mary is alive in Heaven and part of the Body of Christ. We are to pray for one another so we ask Mary to Pray for us now and at the hour of our death, lest Satan tempt us to sin and thereby win our soul for Hell.
Why not pray as Jesus prayed, do as Jesus did and stop inventing stuff that isn’t biblical? Who cares if the bible doesn’t forbid it, just stop doing it.
BFHU:We pray the Our Father at every mass. Are all of your prayers straight out of the Bible? On what authority do you command Catholics to do what you say?
There is absolutely no reason to pray to Mary or any other saint. God knows our situation. God is omnipotent and omnipresent. He is all seeing and all knowing and he knows what we need before we even ask.
BFHU: That is all very true. However, He seems to always work through human beings for some reason. Therefore, James tells us:
Your suggestion that we don’t need to pray b/c God already knows everything contradicts scripture
I Thess. 5:17 pray without ceasing;
Matthew 7:7 [Prayer and the Golden Rule ] ” Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 17:21” But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting
Even Jesus prayed to His Father, and He, Jesus, was God,
Luke 6:12[ Choosing the Twelve ] It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer
There is no reason or no basis in scripture for anybody to ask anybody but God through Christ.
BFHU:
And I also must add that if the bible doesn’t say anything that forbids prayer for the dead, but doesn’t say anything telling people to pray for the dead, then why do it at all? The bible doesn’t specifically forbid praying to a head of lettuce either, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to pray to a head of lettuce.
BFHU: The Bible does tell us to “pray for one another.” This does not exclude our asking for others to intercede on our behalf to God. Therefore, there is nothing wrong about praying for one another and not each one only praying to God, by himself, for himself. The members of the Body of Christ pray for one another. Mary and the Saints are members of the Body of Christ. They do not need our prayers because they are in Heaven but we need prayer. So we ask them to pray for us. Simple as that.
Follow scripture. Don’t follow the catechism which has butchered the ten commandments which forbids idolatry. Follow the bible as it was meant to be followed. You don’t need a priest to tell you what is right and what is wrong. God’s scripture is right there and the answers are there, just read it and you will see the truth.
BFHU: We do follow the Bible. We do not worship Idols. That is a Protestant tradition-that Catholics worship idols. Charity, please.
Catholics, if you don’t believe me about the Catholic butchering of the Ten Commandments, I implore you to read the ten commandments of the bible and then compare them to what is in the Catechism. Can you tell me what happened to commandment NUMBER TWO?
BFHU: We simply number them differently. And we numbered them that way long before the Protestants numbered them the way that they do, to specifically try to bolster their contention that Catholics worship idols.
Please see my post–>Why Did the Catholic Church DROP the Commandment about Idolatry?
The first commandment is; thou shalt not have any other Gods before me…The second; Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visitng the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.Exodus 20…(and) The only way to the father is through his son Jesus. read John 17 to see Jesus wants us to be one with him so if he only prays to the father why should we do different, if Jesus is the one your trying to please…the father says to go through his son therefor we pray to Jesus and the Glory be his..
Jes,
You appear to be misinformed about the beliefs of the ancient Apostolic churches – that would be the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. I would like to clarify a few points.
Firstly, we never worship saints. Worship is reserved for the Uncreated. Saints are created, so they can’t be worshipped. The Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches strictly forbid the worship of saints or holy objects.
There is a difference between veneration and worship. Protestants don’t seem to understand this difference because most Protestants don’t have experience with worshipping God. They venerate God and think it is worship. Therefore, when they see Orthodox and Roman Catholic christians venerate the saints or holy objects, they are offended. They confuse veneration with worship.
When a soldier salutes his country’s flag, is he worshipping his country? No, he is showing respect and devotion to his country by making a gesture of respect to the symbol of his country. This is veneration. When my parents were alive, I would hold the door for them when we entered a building or stand up when they came to the table. Was I worshipping them? No, I was showing respect and devotion to my parents. This is veneration.
When we venerate saints, we show respect, love, and devotion for those who have lived holy lives and who have ran their race and are now, according to Scripture, interceding for us sinners befor the throne of God. The saints have done this not by their own power or holiness, but through the Holy Spirit. We never worship them.
Forgive my frankness, I say this out of charity, but if you can’t understand the difference between showing veneration and worship, the problem isn’t with the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. It is with you. Don’t tell us what we believe and practice. We know the difference between veneration and worship.
Secondly, God has indeeded commanded us in the Bible not to have idols. However, the same God then instructed the Jews to place holy images in their temple, images of cherubims and rams. Does this make sense? Would the same God who condemned any kind of graven image then turn around and command them to be made in his holy house?
Don’t take Scripture out of context, or in such a fundamentalist way that you twist its meaning. The Scripture that you quoted is referring to the construction of idols that are worshipped in the place of God. In so doing, one attributes divine qualities to the material. This is idolatry, and it is condemned by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.
This is one of the problems of Sola Scripture – reading Scripture in such an extremely literalist way that it actually loses the original meaning because it twists the context out of proportion. This is the problem with proof texts and treating the Bible in the same way you would an encyclopedia.
Holy images, such as icons, are never worshipped in the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Churches. They are not attributed divine powers or god-like attributes, and never prayed to.
As an Orthodox christian, my prayers and devotions are directed to that depicted in the icon – never to the wood and paint itself. One may argue that material objects should never be used in worship. This is Gnostic heresy. Protestants see Orthodox kissing an icon, and they make too big a deal of it. When I was in the military, stationed overseas, I carried a photograph of my finace with me. I would often take it out and look at it, and I would often kiss it. Was I worshipping my fiance? That is nonsense. I was showing love for that one depicted in the image. That is all there is to our veneration of icons. The veneration is not to the wood and paint, but to that which is depicted in the image.
Pretty simple stuff if you think about it instead of constantly telling other people what their beliefs are and why they’re wrong.
Thirdly, as an Orthodox christian, I absolutely believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. He alone is our Redeemer and Savior, and our only hope. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. My church teaches this, as does the Roman Catholic Church. Any claim to the contrary is just not true.
However, what I completely reject, is this overly individualistic, Western (largely American) notion of “just me and God”. It is not about just you and God. The Church is one community, one family. We humble ourselves as individuals, realize that we are part of something bigger than our individual self, and show love, respect, and devotion to those members of that family who have departed this world and now pray for us in Heaven.
While Christ is our Saviour, God uses human beings in His plan for our salvation. Consider the Virgin Mary. No other human being has played such a central role in mankind’s salvation as the Mother of our Lord. She was chosen from all women who have ever lived or ever will live to bear God in human flesh. She did this willingly. The Incarnation happened because of her obedience and faith. It doesn’t mean that she is our savior, but we still honor her for her role in our salvation and for the fact that no other human being has ever been as close to God – literally (just think about it for a while).
God uses people in his plan. We show respect, love, and devotion to those individuals. We ask them to pray to God for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and we believe that they are still very much alive and that they are praying for us in Heaven. This is the tradition passed down to us from the Apostles, preserved by the only Church founded by Jesus Christ, and is in no way forbidden or condemned in a single passage of Holy Scripture.
I think that there is a greater danger of the fundamentalists violating the First Commandment with bibliolatry than anything else.
Interesting, you know God says he has magnigfied His Word above His Name?? Your words and actions make up who you are not your name. So how could a person put a person’s word before them?
pls forward this to the above – my husband!! – thank you
Sorry I don’t feel comfortable doing that.
I wrote a blog post in defense of the Catholic tradition of praying to saints here: http://makeafriar.com/2012/01/15/the-saints-what-are-they-good-for/
Wow, this is so eye opening. Even I, a Catholic have benefitted so much from readng this. BFHU, thank you for being so informed about Catholicism. I am going to make sure I print this out (I hope its ok) so that I can answer those that have been questioning my faith. I feel very confident now.
Thank you.
Dear Judith,
Thanks so much for the encouragement. Have a Blessed Ash Wednesday.
Thank you so much for your replies to WOW. I am a cradle-Catholic and find much of what your stated as something to use with my own family members who have strayed from The Church which was established by our savior, Jesus Christ. I could “hear” the compassion in your statements and the frustration and anger in WOW’s. I will pray to His blessed mother, the Virgin Mary, that she asks her Son to help Mr, Wow see and believe the Truth. May God bless you both.