Did Jesus Teach us to Pray to Mary?



Q. Did Christ or the Apostles:Teach us to talk to Mary or to other people to pray for us after there bodies had experienced the first death?
BFHU:Where did He say it is forbidden?

Q. Also please don’t pray to angels, they are servants of God, messengers, they are not your mediator to God, and neither are people.

BFHU:We don’t pray TO Angels. We pray, asking for their intercessory prayer. Ditto for the Saints in Heaven.

Q. Read Hebrews. Did Christ or the Apostles:Teach us about a place (purgatory) where we go when we die that we can be liberated from if we died in unbelief or deserving condemnation?

BFHU:We don’t believe that Purgatory is for unbelievers or those who are condemned. We do believe that unbelievers who, through no fault of their own were not Christian, can be saved through God’s mercy. We are judged based on what we knew and how we responded to that knowledge. No one will go to Hell because they were ignorant of Christ. ie. babies who die at birth, or through abortion, the Indians on the North American Continent before the advent of Christianity, or those before the death of Jesus. All of these will be judged by God based on what they knew and how they responded to God.

Q. There are 2 types of people who die. 1)Saved in Christ, 2)dead apart from Christ. The saved will rise at His coming to life, the dead will rise to be judged after the 1000 year reign, their works will not save them and they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read the entire New Testament

BFHU:There are two types of people….but not as defined above. Those who go to Purgatory will have been judged to be worthy of Heaven once they are purified in Purgatory. The others will be lost to Hell.

Q. Did Christ or the Apostles: Teach us to set up a system of priests to which we must confess to for forgiveness of sin? Ok, so yes it’s Ok to share sin with our brother, it’s good to open ourselves up like that, but a lot of people think that you have to tell the priest or it doesn’t count. Christ is our High Priest. Read Hebrews.

BFHU:Where is Scripture does it say what you assert? In the OT there were ministerial priests as well as the priesthood of all the believers. So also in the Church. So, having a ministerial priesthood is God’s idea.

Jesus certainly did set up confession in

Jn 20:19-2319On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Here we see Jesus annointed ONLY the disciples, the first priests and bishops of the Christian Church, with a special dispensation of the Holy Spirit. He gave them authority to forgive or not… sin. The only way to do this would be if they heard confession audibly. And we know historically that this was done since the earliest era of the Church.

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56 Responses

  1. I found this site when I began to wonder why my sister-in-law speaks so much about Mary. As I began to read the above correspondences for an answer however, I couldn’t help but wonder if the Word of God could be so difficult to understand.

    I wondered if God would provide the ultimate sacrifice in Jesus Christ and then convolute the process for which mankind should understand this sacrifice? When Christ said that he is the way, the truth and the life, did he know what he was talking about? Absolutely! God doe not lie. Do His words leave room for any other truth or exception? Absolutely not! If then, he is the Only Way and truth, then why would I need to pray to anyone else except to him? More to the point, why would I want to pray to anyone else when Christ has provided the means for me to talk directly to God?

    Regarding the current relationship between Mary and Jesus, my sister-in-law said to me, “Mary knows how to nudge Jesus just the right way to get him to move on your behalf”. This sadden me because the implication is that God doesn’t know you unless she (Mary) speaks for you. This brought to my minds eye a picture of a dog trainer showing his dog a new trick. Is God the teacher or the student? The Creator or the created? Can the most Holy of Holies be manipulated and lead in this way? Of course not! He wouldn’t be God if this was true. God is omnipresent and knows everyone of our hearts and our desires. Is Mary? Why then pray to Mary?

    God said that it is appointed once for man to die then the judgment. He also said that heaven is a place where there is no more suffering and tears. If this is true then how could a heavenly mere mortal (Mary), looking down from heaven, not feel sorrow and hurt as she looked down onto a hurting and troubled world? Could you be in heaven and still experience sorrow?

    There are 594 chapters in the bible before you get to the shortest chapter in the bible, psalm 117.
    There are 594 chapters in the bible after the longest chapter in the bible, psalms 119.
    The sum of these chapters is 1188.
    Psalms 118:8 reads, “ It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man“.

    This verse may mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people but for me it means that I should continue to seek the LORD with all my heart and He will be faithful to open the door of understanding. God has said for me/you to knock and seek so that I/we can get to know him on a very personal level. That said, is there a need for a created mediator to help me with this?

    Dogma, creed and tradition are the fathers of all religions. To tradition I say, it is good as long as it does not contradict the words of God as written in the Bible. To dogma and creed I say, let ours be like that of the Apostles who ate, breathed and cried out solely for Our Lord, and Most Beautiful Savior, Jesus.

    I have said much more than I wanted to so I will close with a request and then a prayer.

    Request:
    Please give me scriptural support for praying to Mary when God has made himself available to me? If you cannot provide the scriptural support, can you please provide me a logical reason for doing this?

    Prayer:
    Father, bless all those who read this with a new vision and with an open heart so that the truth of who you are is known. Blessed is your name for ever and ever Amen!

    Your Brother in Christ Jesus,

    Mark in San Antonio

    • The biblical basis is very clear with the centurion with great faith in Luke 7:
      Luke 7

      1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

      2 And a certain centurion’s servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.

      3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

      4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

      5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

      6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:

      7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

      8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

      9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

      Here is a clear example from scripture where the Centurion is NOT approaching Jesus directly but instead is going to him via the elders of the Jews.

      • But he did approach Jesus directly. He said TO JESUS that if He said the word he would be healed. He didn’t ask Saint Paul or Saint Peter to ask Jesus. He asked Jesus to to do it for Him. Jesus may not have directly healed the man by touch, but if that centurion hadn’t of asked Jesus to “say the word” his servant would not have been healed. Jesus said “He had not heard such faith” and He heard that faith in direct conversation between Christ Himself and the centurion.

    • Sadder is the fact that you have no desire to know your Saviors Mother. She was the one God Himself chose as the spouse of the Holy Spirit to bare your Savior and you have no desire to know her continuing role in your life. At the cross Jesus was good enough to give Mary John as her son and to John Mary as his Mother. IN His great love and care for us in Holy Mother Church He continues his generosity and love to us in the gift of His Mother Mary. She is known as the refuge of sinners and the mediatrix of grace both has been scripturally proven when we read in John when she comes to Jesus at the wedding feast and Mary tells Him they have run out of wine….Jesus questions her Woman what does this have to do with me it is not yet time but what happens? Its Mary’s desire to have Mercy on the couple that moves Jesus to great mercy because she asked. She still asks this way …..that we sinners who have no recourse because of our sin can still go to her and as her children she is always there for us obtaining graces for us that we would never be able to obtain because we are undeserving. Without her you do not have Jesus because she is His Mother. As God is His Father.

      I know that Mary loves me and that she has prayed for me and has interceded for me and I know that I have not offended God but as I thank Him for having created her so my Savior could be born I know that He Himself allows her to be with me still and I will praise Him for this great gift always. Without Marys sacrifice and sufferings and allowing the Will of God be done in her to allow your Savior to be born should be enough for you to bow your head and not be so quick to reject her like you are doing. She was the one God chose to give life to His own son for that reason you should be asking forgiveness not brazenly wondering why we have recourse to Our most Holy and Loving of Mothers. Mary, Mother of Mercy pray for us!

    • Hello mark u hit the nail right on the head, this is what i call deceptions of the devil, because they believe what they are doing is right when it is dead wrong and they refuse to believe otherwise. It seems like what ever their church leaders say goes and with out reading the bible to see if it right or wrong blind sheep i call them reply to me here is my personal email lets talk some more trevorss.wi@gmail.com my wife is a catholic and she is head strong. email me so that we can talk more

      • Trevor,
        You have been very insulting but you offer no scripture. Do you expect people to accept your words as infallible?

    • Mark: i’ve been thinking of leaving the Catholic Church & the things you’ve outlined are the things that have been confusing me. Such a brilliant, Spirit-inspired, concise response has encapsulated all of my questions/concerns and the answers to them. I’m saving your response and hope you are still out there preaching such beautiful truth.
      Thanks in Jesus,
      Erik

      • Dear Erik,
        What exactly is confusing you about the Catholic Faith? I would love to have a conversation with you.

        Mark said, “Why would anyone pray to anyone besides Jesus or the Father?” We, as Catholics are not required to ask the Saints for intercessory prayer. We are free to pray straight to the Holy Trinity. Believe me, after 2000 years Catholics would only pray straight to the Father if that is the only way to receive answers to prayer. But, we have found that God answers our prayers very quickly through the intercession of the Saints b/c that is His M.O. ie Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, etc. God choses to work through his holy ones.

        Let me ask a question along the lines of Mark’s. Why would anyone want to belong to a Church other than the one founded by Jesus?
        Who Started Your Church?

        • Another good resource for those looking to understand Catholicism: Look up some of the works of Scott Hahn. He is a convert to Catholicism and is quite articulate in his explanations. I am considering returning to the Catholic Church and while I do have trouble with the Marian doctrines, I am not afraid to hear what Catholics themselves teach about Mary. Much better to get an answer from those within the Church than those who are already against the Church. Another resource is EWTN’s “The Journey Home”. Perhaps this show can be of some help too.

      • @ Erik:

        It’s so easy to buy into a minimalist gospel but forget the full message of Christ’s saving sacrifice on the Cross. For instance, what does it mean to give up everything to take up the cross to follow Christ? All too frequently, Christians are led to believe that it’s just Me-Jesus and nothing else matters. In fact, a lot of other things matter in the kingdom of God. The early Christians only had the apostolic preaching to depend on (Paul to the Corinthian Christians: “Maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor 11:2) and so to Timothy (his “true child in the faith”), Paul stated: “I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tm 3:14–15). So how do one “behave” in the household of God? Where is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” found?Christ established his Church and to this institution, he declared: “He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). If one is truly a disciple of Christ, it’s clearly no “small matter” to disobey His divine plan. When the Protestants constricted worship to “preaching and songs,” the true Church of Christ gathered to “break bread” (Holy Eucharist, Acts 20:7) as the sublime worship. When Christ pronounced that “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood … will have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day” (Jn 6:53-54), Protestants quickly dismissed it as symbolic and inefficacious.

        While the gospel reminded us to call Mary “blessed (for every generation)” (Lk 1:48), and John was called the “beloved disciple” who behold as his own mother (Behold your mother”, Jn 19:27), it’s mind boggling why Protestants would chose to scorn and disrespect the mother of our Lord.

        So is this the “other gospel” which you have decided to follow? For all the self-anointed aspiring preachers out there, you may want to read your bible and note St. Paul’s example to “see Cephas” (Gal 1:18) … lest somehow I should be running, or had run in vain” (Gal 2:1-2) and “how can men preach unless they are sent” (Rom 10:15). You are too proud to be putting yourself outside the authority of the Church established by Christ. Of course, there’s always the sobering thought that “Not everyone who call me Lord, Lord (who prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, do many deeds of power in your name) … will enter the kingdom of heaven , but only one who does the will of the Father” (Matt 7:21-22).

        Refer to bfhu’s answer about intercessory prayers to Mary and the saints. The kingdom of God is a community, not a self-centered Me-Jesus onlyist religiosity.

  2. I am sorry that you you misunderstood.
    Mary does not answer prayers. She intercedes for each of us. Just like you do for me. If I say ” Mark, please pray to our Lord for me”. Will you say yes? Will Mary talk to Jesus for me? Will my earthly Mother intercede for me? I think the answer is yes to all of those questions!

    I am willing to ask anyone to pray for me! !!!! Of course, We pray to our Father to answer our prayers!

    Blessings, :)

  3. Is Mary omnipresent?

    • Not at all. But now in Heaven she is outside of time. But she is still human and it is by the power of God that she hears our requests for her intercession. See my post in reply to Mark –>Why Not Pray to Jesus?

      • That’s a lot to take in. In many of the reply’s I have read on your site, I have seen “scripture support please” many times in your response to someone’s post. So now I respectfully ask for scripture support regarding your response to my question. To use the argument “where in the Bible does it say it is not true”, in my opinion, is not the strongest of positions to take.

    • of course not. Neither are you….and I would still ask for your prayers. I had a really big thing this week and I asked about 50 people for prayer. And yes, that is scriptural.
      :)

  4. Now Dear BHFU, i have been through all the posts. But I strongly disagree with your views. Now regarding Mary’s Intercession, in the old testament, we are strictly forbidden to pray for or to the dead. and Mary is DEAD. Now regarding the “PLACE” of Mary in the NT, Mary was indeed a portal chosen of God to bring Jesus Christ in human form. PERIOD. Nothing else. In the marriage of CANA, when Mary approaches Jesus with the request, the first word he utters is “WOMAN”, what have i to do with thee, my time is not yet come”. Notwithstanding the fact that he heard her request, but we strongly see the Holy Sprit making mention of this fact that after all she was just a “WOMAN” as far as Jesus is concerned and not a Mother. Secondly as regards to the intercession of saints of God, we are talking about praying and not interceding. There is a vast difference between praying and interceding. We do not request God to hear someone elses prayer, but we pray as would that person pray. We pray for him, and not intercede for him. This is exactly mentioned in Jesus’ words” If two or three ask of the Father for anything in unity of heart, that will be granted” the point again is praying not interceding. I Hope this is clear. Mary is not praying for us as per your statement, But Mary is interceding for us, which is strongly agaisnt even what Jesus said in John 16: 24-27. He very clearly says, that we must ask in Jesus’ name, yet he will not request the Father on our Behalf. He also validates that distance he maintains,. because, the reason is clear as crystal, The Father loves you”. Once this fact is clear and Jesus himself distances himself from Intercession, where does Mary a mortal stand the chance of an intercession

    • if Mary is dead, then there is no hope of eternity for any of us. I disagree. I believe Mary along with many others are very much alive. Because of our Lord.

      • The same could be said for if Moses isn’t alive or Paul or even my Mum who was of great faith, becuase if they are truly dead then no there wouldn’t be hope for us. But I don’t pray to my Mum. We were taught by Jesus to pray “Our Father” and that whatever we ask Him for in HIS name HE will grant it for us. The most horrifying thing I read on a Catholic website (and I do actually have some lovely Catholic friends, so this isn’t an attack) was when man and God was compared to a poor man and the president. A, I think God cannot be compared in the least to a human politician, with earthly rules and regulations. They wrote “would a poor man go directly to the president for help? NO.” That is the most astounding argument seeing as it is written in GODS word, “whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” I for one was so terribly poor when Christ found me, more than you can imagine. But I called out “Jesus, save me.” No prayers to anyone except Jesus and Our Father. Only 9 and half months on and I am so much better than I have ever been. I have peace, I have true moments of Joy, and my prayers are always answered without fail. I am a much better person, I do not do many of the sinful things I used to do. And my life on the outside is a far cry from the hell it once was. And that is all from praying to Christ and God through Christ. And I certainly don’t believe for a second that satan would give me peace, make me a far better person, and give me a life so full of blessings I do not know what to do with them except share them with those who need them. And believe me, I have experienced satan in my life, I am reminded of him every day, but thanks to Jesus Christ satan does not have a hold on me like he did. And Jesus is the only one who has authority over Him. Jesus is the one who was crucified. For sure, Mary was His mother and yes I she desrves to be recognised. But Jesus taught even to not have respect for persons. Jesus Himself did not hold His mother higher than any other man which is written in the Bible when He said “Who is my mother, who are my brothers? Who ever does the will of God are my brothers and mother.” And I have also heard it argued that the statues can’t hear and aren’t prayed to but the beings they represent. People who worship buddha or kali or isis, they do not believe the statues and images can hear them either, they too believe the entities do. Not classing Mary and saints as demons, but the same belief goes alongside both.

    • Luke 20:38

      He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

  5. I am extremely troubled with the whole Mary thing. Now I admit that I have gotten very angry about this issue, but just last night I realised that yes indeed, she was blessed to give birth to our savior. But it was her son Jesus that is our savior. The Bible itself says that there is one mediator between us and God, and that mediator is Christ. I will admit that in the past I did pray rosaries and I will admit that they had a wonderful effect. But without saying Mary is an idol, I used to practice the occult and my prayers to other gods and goddesses and other entities were always responded to, though not necessarily in good ways and I am thankfull to have found the Lord. It is a spiritual arena out there. But if there is one mediator between us and God, who is Christ, then why pray to anyone else? It is written in Gods word that when we die we rest from our labours, so how then can Mary or other saints pray for us if they are resting from their labours? Jesus himself said in the Gospel when He was told that His mother and brothers were outside, he responded “who is my mother, who are my brothers? Whoever does the will of God are my mother and brothers.” So even Jesus Himself didn’t venerate His mother Mary. I am a Christian, not a Marian. I just don’t feel entriely comfortable with the whole thing.

  6. Dear Steven,
    I am sorry that you used to practice the occult and prayed to gods and goddesses, other entities etc. I hope you have made a good confession of all this. I too, am so happy that you have returned to the light of Christ.

    It is too bad you did not stick to praying rosaries. But you are safe now.
    Mary is not an idol of course. We do not worship her or consider her to be anything other than human.

    Yes, there is one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus. We don’t pray to Mary in the sense that we think she has the power to answer our prayers. If that were the case then Mary would be ANOTHER mediator. But she is not. We are merely asking for her to pray to God for us. The use of the phrase “pray to Mary” is pounced upon by Protestants who misunderstand our meaning. In this phrase the word “PRAY” merely means “to ask” in the Olde English sense of the word.

    So, to answer your question:

    If there is one mediator between us and God, who is Christ, then why pray to anyone else?

    We are told to pray for one another in James. So we ask Mary to pray for us, to intercede on our behalf in the same way as we ask our friends to pray for us. The Catholic Practice of “praying to Mary and the Saints” is the same thing as what Protestants and Catholics do when they ask their friends to pray for them. It is nothing more sinister than that. In fact, the Catholic Practice is rooted and grounded in our belief in life after death. Catholics have friends on earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven who are very much alive and able to pray for them. Protestants do too, but they deny the fact that they are alive and care about their loved ones still on Earth. The Fullness of the Catholic faith is exhibited by our prayer to Saints. This also pleased our Heavenly Father who is happy when His children pray for one another. The Protestant Faith is narrowed, restricted, and missing something very precious by this denial.

    Q. It is written in Gods word that when we die we rest from our labours, so how then can Mary or other saints pray for us if they are resting from their labours?

    A. Prayer is a labor of love. A mother would rejoice to pray for her children. I don’t think that is the sort of labor we resting from in Heaven.

    Q. Jesus himself said in the Gospel when He was told that His mother and brothers were outside, he responded “who is my mother, who are my brothers? Whoever does the will of God are my mother and brothers.” So even Jesus Himself didn’t venerate His mother Mary.

    A. Jesus would not venerate a creature. He is God. That would just be weird. BUT…He certainly DID HONOR Mary His mother because He kept the Commandments. As a Protestant this passage was often view triumphantly as an example of Jesus being dismissive or even denigrating His mother. They never stopped to think that if He did that it would be a sin. Mary certainly did the will of God. Jesus was not dismissive of her but elevated all the faithful to the status of family members if they do the will of the Father. The Catholic interpretation of this passage is MUCH more fitting than the Protestant interpretation. Protestants often use this passage as proof of Jesus’ dismissive attitude toward His mother contrary to the “evil Catholic veneration of Mary.”

  7. Thank you for your response bfhu. And for your concern. Yes, I have indeed done much confession and repentence over my past occult dealings. It is very much renounced!! The Lord has worked many miracles for me since turning to Him – I am a vastly different person to what I used to be (thank God!!) Converting from occult to Christ was the best decision I ever made.

    As I said, because I have had wonderful results from praying rosaries in the past, I will not deny that fact. It was a short while after turning to Christ and the occult was very much attacking me for leaving it behind. I prayed many rosaries in the space of 3 days, though not every rosary prayer I said included Mary (there was a protection rosary I used as well which was just prayers to God and Christ, and no hail Mary’s) but in those 3 days I went from totally oppressed to feeling really quite liberated, so yes, I do know very much the power of the rosary.

    The issue I have with Mary, and it was only last night it dawned on me that while I am only being careful because I am neurotic about not offending God, especially after commiting idolatry, the scripture that says not to have images of anything on earth or in Heaven or under the earth. That troubles me a little about having staues of saints and Mary. Do not get me wrong, I realised last night that I have been harsh on Mary, after all she did give birth to our savior. But I feel quite strongly after my sins of idolatry, and please do not take offense as I am not calling you an idolator, but for me the occult was so traumatic and I simply fear making maistakes like that. I am not saying that petitioning Mary is idolatry – I do not know for sure. I am basically in the process of lots of prayer to God and trying to suss it all out for myself. If I am honest I would love Gods go ahead for praying rosaries again, they are wonderful. But I have to have Gods approval because I do not want to offend him, if in fact it isn’t acceptable. I hope you understand the struggle I am having (I am sure you do).

    Another thing for me is that while I have had excellent results from the rosary, since I stopped doing it I still have amazing results from prayers to God and Christ. So I think also, do I need to pray (or petition) to anyone else? I seem to be doing well as I am.

    And for what it is worth, while I am not Roman Catholic I do actually respect the dept of faith and devotion of Catholics. It is truly admirable. And I do know they get a really rough time even from other Christians (of which I was guilty in the past).

    The last thing I struggle with is purgatory. Now on the cross, Jesus said to the criminal who was next to Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” So I don’t see how we would go onto a place like purgatory – if purgatory is meant how many people mean it.

    It is just a mine field the Christian faith I am learning. Out of all the spiritual paths I followed over the years this is the hardest, but the most fullfilling. I thank you for your response and hope to get more input from you. I do not see myself converting to Roman Catholic (unless that is Gods will) but even if He gives the go ahead for me to pray rosaries that would be good.

    God bless you.

    • Steven,
      I completely understand you desire to not offend God. I felt the same way as a new Catholic. If you haven’t read my conversion story you might find it interesting. You will find it in a tab at the top of the site.

      No Catholic is required to pray the rosary or ask for the intercession of Mary and the Saints. However, in James we see that the Prayer of a Righteous man accomplishes much.

      James 5:16 …pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

      Therefore, when we are in need of intercession we ask for others to pray for us. Who could be more righteous than those who are in Heaven? So, we pray to the righteous in Heaven asking them to join their prayers to ours.

      I perfectly understand your concern about statues and pictures in Church and kneeling down to pray in front of them, especially with your background. However, you should find my post–> Why Did the Catholic Church DROP the Commandment about Idolatry? interesting since we see that God Himself commanded the making of images for the Temple.

      Regarding your struggle with Purgatory I would recommend my posts
      Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?

      And my post –>Thief on the Cross Did Not Go to Purgatory

      And finally: Which Church Did Jesus Start?

      I don’t know if you ever attended a Satanic or Black Mass. But it is my understanding that a Eucharistic Host is stolen from a Catholic Church in order to desecrate It. They don’t steal the communion bread from any other Protestant Church. So, Satan knows which Church has the Real Christ when he wants to desecrate God.

  8. Hello again friend.

    I have to say straight off, I was not involved in satanism. While I did at times perform very angry magic (one type I used a lot is known as psychic attack and is not nice at all) and I did on occasions use black magic. But I never was a satanist. I did at one time when I felt God had abandoned me feel like turning to that, but thankfully the Lord was with me even then and pulled me back. I did however towards the end of the occult involvement have a group of satanists come into my life. By this point I had turned away from the black magic and only wanted to help people. Now of course I know that even white magic is very much deception. So not having been involved in satanism I do not know about the situation you described.

    “Who could be more righteous than those who are in Heaven?” Yes, that is a very good and valid point, but one thing you didn’t answer last time, if you give clarification, about what is written that when our lives on earth are ended we rest from our labor. How can people who have passed over, if they are resting, work with prayer? I am not trying to pick an argument, just trying to gain understanding. I have witnessed truths in different denominations, and in fact God said to me in prayer recently when I was praying about a denominational issue, He said quite clearly “it is not about denomination.” I think I He meant that it is the heart that is important, and the faith. I am against certain aspects of pentacostal church for example, but I cannot deny I have had wonderful results from prayers said for me by Pentacostals.

    With the idolatry, as you can imagine, with the sheer hell I went through with the occult/new age with my practices including invoking buddha, other buddhist deities, gods/goddesses, nature spirits, and even Biblical characters distorted by new age “philosophies” (for example, my reiki teacher initiated into what she called the Order of Melchizadec – but not in a biblical way you understand). I know first hand not only how that practice is so destuctive to the soul, but with the harsh price I paid I know exactly how much God frowns upon it. I did see a documentary the other day about the history of the Church and there was a snippet about a really old church and you could see where after the reformation the images of saints in Heaven praying had been scrubbed out. So I do see how there could very well be attacks from the church to catholicism. Even in the new testament Paul highly commends the Romans for how news of their faith has spread over the world. And the Bible says how the Church will suffer persecution. The catholics are probably the most persecuted church even by other Christians.

    Now many Catholics deny that they pray to and worship Mary. But I have to be honest and say I have seen catholic prayers to Mary which have been worshipful, and even heard a song (by Elvis Presly) saying that only she can hold back the hand of her son. Now I have seen prayers which have been worshipful and stating that they want her to answer their prayers, and with regards to the song, Jesus has ultimate authority, and besides which He would not need to be restrained (if that were possible) because until the day of judgement I believe He is simply waiting for sinners to repent, to welcome them into the fold. I believe that if we are chastised for our poor behavior that is the work of God. Jesus is too busy praying for us to need His hand holding back.

    I have to be honest. Some weeks ago I was in bed trying to sleep, and I got in my head about the passage I mentioned about Paul praising the Church at Rome, and also the verse in Ephesian about “praying always with all prayer…. ….all perseverence and supplication for all the saints.” Now I am quite sure it came to mind with reference to Catholicism. Another interesting bit of guidance I received was when I asked The Lord if He was willing to lead me to a monastery that would be suitable for me. Within an hour someone mistakenly sent me an email with a link to a Benedictine monastery. Pretty amazing. And when I looked into the rule of St Benedict, it simply spoke to me and is made for someone just like me.

    I’ll be honest. I do see many signs that are coming to me from the Lord that Catholicism is not necessarily everything that people say it is. There do still seem to be things that I am unsure of but I asked God to give me peace about it and I am not feeling as stressed as I was. You know I only desire to please God (as I said He told me in prayer it is not the denomination but the heart that is important).

    I have bookmarked this page as I will not be able to take in your other articles at this time, and also becuause I have a certain need to work out as much of this for myself as I can -with Gods guidance of course. But I am getting a lot out of our discussion and learning things and enjoying our exchanges.

    Peace be with you.

    Ps. With the monastery thing, I long to become a monastic and there are not many – if any non-catholic monasteries. We will see where the Lord guides me.

  9. I am doing some research. Now the link below is for a prayer to Mary, and it blatantly is asking HER to give you things that come from God, asking HER to grant things which is not her job, surely? It is God who bestows blessings. Surely if it were asking her to pray for you, then you would ask her to ask God for the things you are wanting? I just don’t know. I do hear many contradictions about catholicism, from both sides.

    “You are our life and hope, please grant me holy, final perseverance in the grace of Your Divine Son. See to it that I live and die saintly, and love You in Paradise forever.” excerpt, from the link to prayer. JESUS is our life and hope, it is not Mary’s job to grant us anything. That is Gods decision. And it is not Mary’s job or ability to see that we live and die saintly. That has to come from God and Christ.

    I am not one hundred percent convinced.

  10. I must appologize bfhu, I didn’t notice that you did actually respond to my question about why Jesus didn’t venerate His mother Mary. It is a very valid point that you have made there, I must admit!! They say the Lord answers when you are desperate and I was just at breaking point when I found you had responded to that question!!

    I have just had a look over one of your purgatory articles. Now what is the purgatory thing? Is it a place of torment as so mnay people think, or is it a place of healing from the scars of sin? Is it peaceful as it said about the bosom of Abraham? You see, I know I cannot presume that I am guaranteed entry to Heaven. But just from looking back on my life I can see that God has most definitely always been with me despite the magnitude of my sins. Hebrews 1:14 Are they (angels) not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? I mention this quote because I have had angelic intervention, and I know for certain that is what it was, 3 times to my definite knowledge, possibly a 4th just a day or so ago. So I know that I am with God, despite being a terrible sinner. All my life, even when I was practicing the occult I always believed in and prayed to the one true God, and He has always been there for me. And When I came to Christ only 9 or so months ago I was a complete wreck. But the Lord has definitely been at tremendous effort in my life – I am a different person and my life on the outside is unrecognisable. What are your views on all this?

    I hope to hear from you soon.

  11. Dear Steven,

    Prayers to Mary are not equal to Catholic Doctrine. Many, even written by saints will sound to Protestant ears like a sort of worship. So I know what you mean. But, any worship of Mary is condemned by the Catholic Church. Of that I am sure. Mary is a creature. She is not the fourth person of the Trininity…er…Quadrinity…But people, out of devotion may say or teach what is not correct. That is why when I decided to be received into the Catholic Church, I decided to be a Catechism Catholic. I was going to reject folk catholicism. Anyway the Catechism is very clear about who Mary is and who she is not.

    Let’s take a look a two Catholic prayers that illustrate correct theology.
    The Hail Mary:….Holy Mary, mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH.

    The “I Confess” …and I ask Blessed Mary and all the angels and Saints TO PRAY FOR ME TO THE LORD OUR GOD.”

    The confusion comes because God has chosen to work through Mary, just like he chose to rescue Noah and his family through Noah, to raise up The Chosen People through Father Abraham, to bring the Israelites out of Egypt through Moses, to rescue the spies through Rahab, and Israel through the Judges, etc.

    God just has an M.O. of working through His chosen fallible human beings. So, He has also continued to work and answer prayer through Mary and the Saints.

    You can read about what the Catholic Church says about Mary in the Catholic Encyclopedia
    Or search the Catechism of the Catholic Church

    Find out what the Catholic Church says she believes rather that what Protestants say the Catholic Church believes. I didn’t do that for years and I was surprised at myself.

    Another thought on the word you believe you received about denomination don’t matter. Perhaps they don’t matter because the Catholic Church is not a denomination. She is the original Church founded by Jesus.

    Also, God the Father wants every human being in Heaven with Him. He will work with anyone who is seeking Him whether they are Pentecostals or Presbyterians. He loves us all. He doesn’t refuse their prayers when He can answer them to draw them deeper into His sacred Heart. But the Catholic Church is the fullness of the faith.

  12. I must say to you before I go and sleep. Out of all the people I have spoken to about Catholicism, you have been the one person who has given the most grounded responses to my questions. I am still holding back a decision (probably due to fears) but you do give quite reasonable answers to my questions. I have been praying about this since last night, and earlier today placed a load of requests for prayers online about this issue. One person prayed that God would teach me through seasoned Christians and answer my questions. I freaked when I read it because of all the conflicting things people have told me before, but I just thanked her for her prayer she chose, as you have been most enlightening for me. I cannot thank you enough, even if I do not convert to Catholic or Roman Catholic I am more enlightened about aspects and principle arguaments for it. I have just sent a lengthy email to the Abbot of a monastery I am invited to visit just to hear his angle on it too. You know by now I am neurotic about not displeasing God, but we shall see what way things go from here. I want what God wants for me, and He convicts my heart to convert then I have to follow that.

    I have this page book marked and will start reading your articles when my head isn’t so mangled from searching.

    Thank you again ever so much for all your input. Maybe we can take this up again?

    God bless you.

  13. Steven,
    God Bless you. You will be in my prayers. I am going out of town till Sunday evening.

  14. Here are some facts copied from wikipedia about voodoo. If you are honest and have your eyes wide open you will see some common factors. I am not doing this to annoy or argue or be a trouble maker. But to help others avoid making a very bad mistake. If you do any of the following practices I strongly advise you to move the focus of your faith. Your souls are very much in danger, that is my only concern:

    The principal belief in Haitian Voodoo is that deities called Lwa (or Loa) are subordinates to a god called Bondyè, This supreme being does not intercede in human affairs, and it is to the Lwa that Voodoo worship is directed.[3] Other characteristics of Voodoo include veneration of the dead and protection against evil witchcraft.[4

    Note the deities that are subordinates to God and the veneration of the dead.

    Vodouisants believe in a supreme being called Bondye, but also worship many lesser spirits, as the loa. This belief is held in several West African religions, such as that of the Yoruba, Odinani, and Vodun. When it came in contact with Roman Catholicism, the supreme being was associated with the Judeo-Christian God, the loa becoming the saints.

    The Haitian voodoo practitions venerate Catholic saints.

    Bondye is the supreme god in Haitian Vodou. The word is derived from the French bon Dieu (good God).[3] Vodouisants regard Bondye as the creator of everything. Bondye is distant from its creation, being a pandeist deity. Because of this, he is aloof from every day affairs and Vodouisants don’t believe they can contact Him for help.

    I commented above how a catholic said we should not go to God but ask the saints to ask Him because we are beneath God (translates to “aloof” quite easily.

    Because Bondye is unreachable, Vodouisants aim their prayers to lesser entities, the spirits known as loa

    Intercession. The loa are the saints.

    Generosity in giving to the community and to the poor is also an important value.

    Even some voodoo practitioners have certain good qualities. But does God approve of their practices?

    In the occult practitioners often think that the beings that are listening are benevolent and helpful. We may think that we are in communication with good entities. This is why the new testament warns us that there is only one intermediary between man and God. Satan is very sly and deceptive. When I was in the occult myself, I never worshipped satan directly – all the beings I communicated with were “peaceful” like the Buddha, angles and mother earth. Satan can appear as an angel of light as I learned very much to my detriment. I barely escaped with my life. There was nothing good about these seemingly harmless and even helpful spirits. But who we think we are communicating with is not who they really are, believe me. ONE mediator between man and God. NO images of anything in Heaven, on earth or under the earth. Voodoo practitioners have their staues of the saints too and they are not pretty. That is because the are deeper into it spiritually and see them as they really are.

    Please, be careful with your beliefs and faith. I only worry for the sake of souls. For the Catholics, please keep your strong faith and devotion, but for the sake of your salvation, give that devotion and faith to the Creator, not the craetion, of which Mary and the saints are a part being human.

    God bless you all.

  15. Dear Steven,
    Thanks for your explanation of voodoo beliefs. But the similarities are not because the Catholic Faith has incorporated them but because Satan is counterfeiting it with distortions and lies as usual.

    Our beliefs are very different. God the Father is not aloof but a loving and merciful Father. We are not obligated to ask for the intercession of the Saints. Catholics can pray directly to God, but asking for the intercession of the saints is reinforced by God b/c their prayers are efficacious.

    • It is not the reasons that are important, but the similarities. The practices are very much the same, and the practices stem from sililarities in beliefs. The fact remains that the practices are very much the same, albeit the deities “petitioned” are given different names due to difference in culture. It says in the Bible God will judge with impartiallity. I don’t see how He would judge one culture one was for their practices and another culture judge completely different for essentially the same practices. And I have a question. David, who was a man after Gods own heart, why did he not address any of his psalms to dead saints in Heaven. Why were the Jews instructed on very specific rituals for praying to God and not to pray to saints? I think it is quitye an important point seeing as Jesus and Christianity sprang forth from the Jewish religion. I could give many quotes from psalms honoring God and no one else. Praying for Gods people yes, but never praying to those who had passed on.

      • Anti Catholics always try to make a case that similarities of Catholic practice and faith with pagan practices means that Catholicism is pagan.

        But think about it. If you were Satan wouldn’t it be a good idea to convince people of this?

        What you say about the Psalms is a good point but Christianity believes many things not believed by the Jews. For instance the Jews did not end their prayers in Jesus’ name. And for that matter there is not a prayer in the New Testament that ends in “Jesus’ Name” nor are we instructed to do so. We are told to pray in the name of Jesus, but who decided that that meant to tack on “In Jesus’ Name” at the end of prayers? I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. Don’t get me wrong. I am just pointing out that this is a tradition of men.

    • Sorry, I do not mean to unindate you. Re. prayers being reinforced by saints. Now I have never prayed to any of the saints, thats my choice. But I cannot think of a single prayer that hasn’t been answered. I just don’t don’t see the point of going to a lesser being, when God Himself is just waiting to answer our prayers. We are told that “we don’t get because we do not ask” but also to pray “Our Father” and “in Jesus name.” It says no where in the Bible to pray to deceased people, in fact it IS condemned, we are told that communication with the dead, and talking to the deceased is communication is an abomination. It doesn’t say do not communicate with the dead is condemned unless they are a saint, it makes no such distinction. I agree, that yes, the devil does distort much. It is well known to happen in many churches so I am not just uneasy about Catholicism. I actually have met some lovely Catholics who are extremely nice people, but they have largely tried to convince me to practice things which are against the very faith I profess. In fact some have been hell bent on converting me, when I have made it perfectly clear that actually, I am already of excedingly strong faith. Jesus was the one who died to save us. “Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” It’s like the rosary promises, stating that “our lady of the rosary” is the one who saves us in not so many words, and I have just the other day seen a page with a huge picture of Jesus mother saying “I am the only one who can save you.” It is all quite disconcerting and I am sticking with what I know and trust. It has not lead me wrong so far. I trust God, Christ and that is all I need.

      • Steve,
        Great. You are welcome to stick to what you know. But some of what you know may be mistaken. For instance the condemnation of “communion with the dead”…necromancy…referred to in scripture is not at all about asking for the intercession of the Saints but it is about a form of sorcery. This is obvious from the context.

        Spiritism Forbidden
        ( this subtitle was in the NASB)

        Deut 18:9″When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations.

        10″There shall not be found among you anyone (J)who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one (K)who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

        11or one who casts a spell, (L)or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

        12″For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and (M)because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.

        13″(N)You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.

        14″For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who (O)practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

  16. I did, by the way see a documentary about the vatican. I watched it because I like to keep an open mind. I do not wish to judge people for that is not my place. I really do only have good intentions. But I saw something quite worrying on that documentary. They have a collection of thousands upon thousands of statues and graven images that most definitely are just that, a whole collection of statues of other religions gods and goddesses. Now surely if we are following God then we would be warey to do as He said to His people that wew are “to rid ourselves of our filthy idols.” Not collect thousands of them for any reason. That is quite worrying I think. After what I went through with the occult I wouldn’t entertain a statue of Kali or Buddha or any such thing.

  17. Steven, I can see that you have not read my post on
    Idol Worship, Statues in Churches, and the 2nd Commandment

    The statues and paintings are art they are not idols. An idol must be worshiped in order for it to be an idol. Every picture, painting or statue is not an idol. I hope you will read the post above b/c God had the Israelites make “graven images” for the temple. I am not aware that the Vatican has statues of Kali or other pagan idols.

    But what you will find, which I find very beautiful, but which a Protestant would certainly interpret in the worst possible way is depiction of pagan dieties in some churches. HOWEVER, this is not what you think. For instance in the church at Sienna, (Floor of Siena Cathedral) there is a depiction on the floor of a female wolf other ancient local gods during the pre-Christian era. But this is found near the entrance to the church. So, first is paganism, then there are depictions of Old Testament stories, in chronological order up the nave of the Church until as you near the altar you find depictions of Jesus’ life. The purpose was to connect to pagans and lead them literally up to Christ at the altar. Beautiful!
    (You can see the pagan Siena god and some scenes from the slaughter of the innocents at the link above.)

  18. My peeps, open your eyes and stop following blindly the misleading teachings. Should you prayer for wisdom and enlightenmment from God, you will surely understand what the Bible has directed us to do.
    As far as the Bible states, Jesus gave a template for prayer as contained in the LORD’S PRAYER. Thank you.

    • Well,:Protestants can’t even get the “Lord’s Prayer” right. They arrogantly assert that Catholics are wrong by omitting the “doxology” as part of the original prayer. Modern scholarship has demonstrated that the Catholics are right again … that the “doxology” was just a part of the liturgical prayers of the (mass of) ancient church. So much for a template of an incorrect form. Protestants have had strayed so far and removed from the apostolic faith!

  19. How do you KNOW that the Catholic Church is not the director of what the Bible says to do? Which of the thousands of Protestant denominations has the true truth? Don’t they all read and use the Bible? If it was as simple as you say wouldn’t all the Protestants believe exactly the same thing? After all Jesus said in Jn 17:11:21 – 23 :

    “Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one…..21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

    Where in Scripture does it say that the Lord’s Praryer is merely a template for prayer….???

  20. Where?
    The Book of Matthew.
    Jesus Himself told us to pray this way:

    Matt 6:6-15
    6. “But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
    7. “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
    8. “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
    9. “In this manner, therefore, pray: our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
    10. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
    11. Give us this day our daily bread.
    12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
    14. “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
    15. “But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    (NKJ)

    What other scriptures are needed than the one where Jesus tells us how to pray?
    These passages are perfectly clear and do not need interpretation by anyone.
    He tells us not to pray in the open
    He tells us not to pray in vain repetitions
    He states perfectly clear to pray “in this manner” to “our Father in Heaven”

    To pray any other way violates Lord Jesus order that was issued from Him directly
    The only sin worse than personally committing transgressions against God is misleading and teaching others falsely to commit transgressions which is what the Catholic Church has and is doing.

    There is no Biblical authorizing that exists praying to anyone but God, and to say you are simply talking to Mary, who is infact dead, is not praying to her is almost laughable if it were not so misleading.

    The “Church” has perverted the Ten Commandments and continues to do so as seen in the posts above.

    BTW – interpretation comes from God thru the Holy Spirit to us, which is why they murdered Martin Luther. Luther would have put them mostly out of business if everyone had understood what he was saying.

    Of course the Church has murdered many that stood in their way.

    Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position and it took the world just a few hundred years to bring it right back.
    The sad things is most of the Protestant churches follow the same doctrinal falsehoods the Catholic Church conceived.

    • Robert: What other scriptures are needed than the one where Jesus tells us how to pray?

      Bread From Heaven: Do you then think that the ONLY prayer Jesus allowed is the Lord’s Prayer?

      Robert:These passages are perfectly clear and do not need interpretation by anyone.

      Bread From Heaven: Then one could make the case from the way you interpret this passage that all prayer except the Lord’s Prayer is forbidden. And some Protestant churches forbid praying the Lord’s Prayer.

      Robert: He tells us not to pray in the open
      He tells us not to pray in vain repetitions
      He states perfectly clear to pray “in this manner” to “our Father in Heaven”

      Bread From Heaven: Does He? Really? So all prayers in church are forbidden? Let’s take a look at the context:

      Mt. 6:1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

      2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

      Jesus was contrasting show-prayer with praying in secret. This is preferred to showy prayer. But this does not mean that all public prayer is forbidden. Jesus NEVER said anywhere in Scripture that a public prayer is a sin, evil, wrong, or forbidden. This is how Protestants sometimes interpret it. But they still pray in their church services which is hypocritical.

      Jesus does not denounce all repetion of prayer. He denounces VAIN repetition. Even He said the same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemane. Plese see my post–> Why Not Just Pray to Jesus? http://bfhu.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/1551/

      Robert: To pray any other way violates Lord Jesus order that was issued from Him directly

      Bread From Heaven: Where does it say this in Scripture? You are asserting something without any authority to do so. The above scripture says no such thing. Only your interpretation says this.

      Robert: The only sin worse than personally committing transgressions against God is misleading and teaching others falsely to commit transgressions which is what the Catholic Church has and is doing.

      Bread From Heaven: You think this based on your own or other Protestant teaching. But that is a very different thing than any Scripture actually contradicting what the Church teaches. There is no such scripture. There is only contradictory Protestant teaching and interpretation.

      Robert: There is no Biblical authorizing that exists praying to anyone but God, and to say you are simply talking to Mary, who is infact dead, is not praying to her is almost laughable if it were not so misleading.

      Bread From Heaven:
      Mary is NOT dead. She is alive in Heaven. Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

      Robert: The “Church” has perverted the Ten Commandments and continues to do so as seen in the posts above.

      Bread From Heaven: You make an assertion but give us no evidence. This is then an ad-hominem attack which is usually a sign that facts are scarce.

      Robert: BTW – interpretation comes from God thru the Holy Spirit to us.

      Bread From Heaven: I know that you believe this but different interpretations of scripture are the exact reason there are thousands of different Protestant denominations. Not all of the interpretations are true. Not all are led by the Holy Spirit. If they were then God would be a God of Confusion. Biblical interpretation unhinged from the Church founded by Jesus Christ and history has led to chaos in Protestantism. They can only agree on a few basics. The scripture NEVER promised to guide every individual human being into truth in interpreting scripture. The Scriptures NEVER say all Christian truth is found ONLY in Scirpture. This is a Protestant Tradition of men.

      Robert: (The Catholi Church) murdered Martin Luther. Luther would have put them mostly out of business if everyone had understood what he was saying Of course the Church has murdered many that stood in their way.

      Bread From Heaven:…uhmmm…Martin Luther died of natural causes.
      The Catholic Church did not ever murder anyone. Catholics have murdered people. But that is not the same as the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not approve of murder any more than you do. This is a slanderous statement.

      Robert: Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position and it took the world just a few hundred years to bring it right back.
      The sad things is most of the Protestant churches follow the same doctrinal falsehoods the Catholic Church conceived.

      Bread From Heaven: By what authority do you say, “…and from a religious organization”? That is NOWHERE in scripture. So here you are with beliefs that are not in scripture and not historical. They are only a few decades old. This is just not convincing. The evidence is that the Catholic Church believes the same doctrine as the Christians believed in the first century.

      • Mary’s mortal body surely died.
        There are only two recorded in the Bible that were taken directly to Heaven.

        It was the Church that changed the day of worship during the Council of Nicea from the Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday.
        The Fourth Commandment clearly states:
        ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’

        There is no Scriptural authorization for this.

        Constantine was a Sun Worshipper (called Mithraism, but you know that) and ordered the Council of Nicea to authorize the change.
        This is Man’s doing, not God’s.
        The Sabbath was established directly by God.

        If you are so foolish to argue the Sabbath day it is not Saturday I will embarrass you publically.

        If God ordained we should worship on a particular day and the any man changed it they are going against God

        The Church in fact teaches it that way so they are teaching false doctorine. So are the Protestant churches, so don’t hand my that garbage I am following their (misleading) teachings.

        You remember the word “Inquisition”?

        Lets just call it Church sponsored Murder.

        From Wikipedia:

        The Inquisition was created through papal bull, Ad Abolendam, issued at the end of the 12th century by Pope Lucius III as a way to combat the Albigensian heresy in southern France. There were a huge number of tribunals of the Papal Inquisition in various European kingdoms during the Middle Ages. In the Kingdom of Aragon, a tribunal of the Papal Inquisition was established by the statute of Excommunicamus of Pope Gregory IX, in 1232, during the era of the Albigensian heresy. Its principal representative was Ramon de Penyafort. With time, its importance was diluted, and, by the middle of the 15th century, it was almost forgotten although still there according to the law.

        There was never a tribunal of the Papal Inquisition in Castile. Members of the episcopate were charged with surveillance of the faithful and punishment of transgressors. During the Middle Ages, in Castile, little attention was paid to heresy by the Catholic ruling class. Jews and Muslims were tolerated and generally allowed to follow their traditional laws and customs in domestic matters. However, by law, they were considered inferior to Catholics and were subject to discriminatory legislation.

        The Spanish Inquisition can be seen as an answer to the multi-religious nature of Spanish society following the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Muslim Moors. For almost 600 years, much of the Iberian Peninsula was dominated by the Moors following their invasion of the peninsula in 711 until the early 13th century. Following the Christian victory at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212), and the fall of Córdoba (1236) and Seville (1248), Christian rule was re-established for most of the peninsula. Only the small region of Granada remained under Muslim rule which also ended with a final Christian victory in 1492. However, the Reconquista did not result in the total expulsion of Muslims from Spain, since they, along with Jews, were tolerated by the ruling Catholic elite. Large cities, especially Seville, Valladolid and Barcelona, had significant Jewish populations centered in Juderia, but in the coming years the Muslims were increasingly subjugated by alienation and torture. The Jews, who had previously thrived under Muslim rule, now suffered similar maltreatment.
        End.

        Refute that.

        • The Creation of the Sabbath predates the 10 Commandments.
          Gen 2:3
          3. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
          end.

          Then God commanded for us to “Remember the Sabbath Day and to keep it Holy.
          Period..

          How Satan perverts Gods commandments/laws:
          Gen 3:1-4
          1. Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
          2. And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
          3. “but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
          4. Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
          end.

          When God commands something and ANYONE tells you different IT IS WRONG!

          Anyone that follows wrong doctorine or outright false doctorine, whether they have been doing it for 1 week or 1000 years, is still doing wrong and is violating Gods Word.
          Period.

          I cannot be more plain in saying if God says to do something and we do something different we are doing wrong.
          If we do wrong against God then we are committing a sin and need to repent and change our ways.

          If we teach false doctorine to others we are doing really wrong as even Jesus personally gave us a stern warning about this:

          Mark 9:42
          42. “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea”…
          (NKJ)

      • “By what authority” do I say Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position ?
        Jesus Himself.

        Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position
        Matt 23:1-38
        1. Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
        2. saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
        3. “Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
        4. “For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
        5. “But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
        6. “They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
        7. “greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’
        8. “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
        9. “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
        10. “And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
        11. “But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
        12. “And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
        13. “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
        14. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
        15. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
        16. “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
        17. “Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
        18. “And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
        19. “Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
        20. “Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
        21. “He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
        22. “And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
        23. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
        24. “Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
        25. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
        26. “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
        27. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
        28. “Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
        29. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
        30. “and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
        31. “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
        32. “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
        33. “Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
        34. “Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
        35. “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
        36. “Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
        37. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
        38. “See! Your house is left to you desolate;
        (NKJ)

        These very same people that Jesus railed against began plotting against Him to kill him, and ultimately succeded.
        BTW – Little did they know what the outcome of that would be.

        These people ran the Sanhedrin Council and the Priesthood were the ones plotting against Jesus.
        The question then becomes why did they what to kill Him.

        The answer is obvious and in the Bible for everyone to look up and
        see.
        Start at Matthew 26.

  21. Dear Robert,
    Thanks for all the scripture. We agree with all of it. We just differ with your interpretation and the subsequent to the OT empowering of the apostolic leaders of the Church founded by Jesus with the Keys of the Kingdom and the authority to make decisions.

    In the OT there were also lots of dietary laws and sacrifices and circumcision. All of these were done away with by the Peter and the apostles in the first century Church; including worship on Saturday.

    Sunday was chosen because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday and made several appearances to His apostles on Sunday, the first day of the week. And also probably to differentiate it from the Jewish day of Rest.

    You may want to take a look an my posts:

    How Did Sabbath Change to Sunday?

    Sabbath to Suday?

    • Then you confess you are violating God’s Commandment..

    • BTW – It is called the 10 Commendments, not the 10 Suggestions.

      Man simply cannot change what God has ordained/commanded without comitting sin.

      It doesn’t matter how it is justified, or when, it still is a sin against God.

      This is not my interpretation.

      It is what the Torah, the Vulgate and KJV clearly state.

      Man cannot change what God has ordained.

  22. You are correct of course. Man cannot change what God has commanded on their own authority. But Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the authority to make changes.

    Jesus gave them the power to “bind and loose” which is a Hebrew idiom meaning authority to rule or make decisions. And Jesus told Peter and later the other apostles:

    Matthew 16:19
    I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    Matthew 18:18
    “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

  23. Ahhh… No.
    By that rational if the authority existed to change whatever God had commanded then God’s Word be null and void.

    This is another example of the rationalizing of the Church uses to justify its acts.

    Everything we need to know is in the Bible.
    The only place God’s Word was changed pertained to the Mosiac Laws – the Laws God gave Moses – about the Hebrews (God’ s chosen people) when the first church council took up the topic of the Law and the Gentiles.
    At issue was circumcision.

    Acts 15:19-21
    19. “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
    20. “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
    21. “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

    Acts 15:23-29
    23. They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
    24. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law’– to whom we gave no such commandment–
    25. it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    26. men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    27. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
    28. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
    29. that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
    (NKJ)

    Of the 10 Commandments there is no other word in the Bible that they are subject to change, in fact Jesus Himself stated they would not pass away and he did not come to change them:

    Matt 5:17-19
    17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
    18. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
    19. “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    (NKJ)

    If fact The Church is guilty of Matt 5:19.
    Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of the commandments and teaches mens so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.

    Apparently Jesus was talking to you.

    Jesus clearly states here not one part of The Law “will by no means pass away”.
    Not one jot or tittle of it.

    If we are being held to that standard by Jesus it is illogical to think that standard could be changed by anyone except Jesus, who declared already it would not change.
    Period.

    What the Church is doing is clearly wrong and only a blind person cannot see that.

    You have not refuted anything I have posted in either scripture of conclusion.
    Using twisted Church dogma is of no value.

    Changing God’s Laws is wrong.
    Teaching the same is even more wrong.

    It is a Sin against God, as I posted in the very first post.

  24. Question Robert. Do you practice circumcision, all of the dietary laws of the OT, and the part about not having clothing with two types of fibers? those are just off the top of my head. We will just have to agree to disagree.

    • You are being petty now.

      I already answered that question.

      God through the Holy Spirit allowed the first and true Church to lift the requirements of the Laws given to Moses that applied to the Hebrews, which I clearly referred to above.
      The exact Scripture:

      Acts 15:28-29
      28. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
      29. that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
      (NKJ)
      End.

      That clearly was referring to the Mosaic Law, not the 10 Comandments.

      Nothing in the New Testament remotely comes close to authorizing any one to change the 10 Commandments.
      Zip, nada, no, nothing.

      It is also obvious you are unable to validate the position of the Catholic Church with Scipture in this regards, which will be clear to everyone that reads these posts.

      In fact I fully expect this website to disappear soon as it will be an embarrassment to the Church to leave it in place.

      Your position is unsustainable in the Scriptures.
      Period.

      It the Word does not validate our doctrine it is wrong.

      Good night.

    • With this I am through as I have proven my point for all to see:

      Exod 20:10-11
      10. but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
      11. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

      Exod 31:12-17
      12. And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
      13. “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
      14. ‘You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
      15. ‘Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
      16. ‘Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
      17. ‘It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
      (NKJ)

      It is beyond reason when we know the Lord God’s Word that clearly states He blessed the Sabbath and hallowed it, then followed up to also saying You Shall keep the Sabbath…, to observe observe the Sabbath as a perpetual covenant, even stating whoever profanes it shall be put to death, and then to blythely state, Oh, we changed it because God gave us the authority to make changes, which is really saying we didn’t think when God said do this eternally He really didn’t mean it!

      That is just nuts.

      And Satan said, “You shall surely not die”, and Eve believed him.

      Your only defense of your (church’s) actions is Satan’s lie.

      I am finished with this.

  25. I just don’t understand why Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is a heresy. The Catholic church has proven to the world to be a strong and united Church, that has endured throughout the ages in spite of persecution from a lot of people; unlike the Protestant churches which have separated and divided themselves within a few hundreds, decades or maybe even couple of years. This proves that they divided the body of Christ into so many parts that GO AGAINST one another. My point is also proven right by looking at the contrasting teachings from the Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptists, Pentecostal and THOUSANDS more Protestant churches. Don’t believe me? Read up on their different teachings.

    Next, I have to make my point clear that the Catholic church DO NOT run on a man-made tradition and doctrines basis; unlike Protestant churches which adhere to Martin Luther’s ‘Sola Scriptura’ which is NOT biblical instead. It’s so ironic and amusing that his doctrine of ‘Bible Alone’ is NOT even supported in the Bible. Instead, Paul urged us to hold on to Apostolic Traditions he had passed (to early church fathers); and pass on teachings to others either by oral OR written. However, we must remember (like how Protestants always pointed out) that we must NOT follow Man-made laws/traditions that void God’s will, and that the Bible is definitely helpful in ensuring us with righteous and humble Christian life.

    On the authority of the Church: http://everythingcatholic.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/which-church-was-founded-by-christ-scriptural-evidence/

    By the way, the Church declares Doctrines based on Scripture, not on fairy tales or hearsay. Doctrines are actually declared to CLEAR doubts and conflicts among followers by setting definitions based on Scripture.

    But here, I’m only going to touch on Mary’s common misunderstandings.

    I personally don’t get why Protestants always think that Catholics pray TO Mary, angels and saints (or even worship them) when we actually ask them to pray WITH them. Praying for one another is PLEASING to God! Also, do note that ‘I pray to thee’ is actually a very formal way of asking/imploring from a high official in the past, especially in the Old Britain. Back to the topic, Book of Revelations have already proven that Saints actually pray with us. This IS shown where the elders present incense of the prayers of Saints before God – unless you don’t believe that all followers of God are saints, no matter in heaven or on earth? Aha, it’s stated in the Scriptures (which all Christians adhere to). Nobody dies in the Body of Christ, but gains eternal life (Gospel according to John). Saints are all dead and rotting? – you just went against the Scripture. Catholics believe that Mary, Angels and all the other Saints before God now are always interceding for all men; but Protestant disapproved as they emphasized that only Christ is the mediator alone (Very ironically, ALL Catholics agree with that).

    Fyi: Be noted that the Catholic church is also highly against idolatry. In the distant past, She banned and stripped the archangel status of St. Uriel from the Church because the church believed that followers put a big lot more focus on this Angel than onto God. But certainly, there are still followers who continue to honour this archangel till this day (not as much as it was last time).

    Also I’ve no issue with Mary being a Queen in heaven; since God is going to crown his saints as kings in heaven (Book of Revelations) & besides, Queen (Mary) has very much LESS authority relatively to the King (Jesus). Having a Queen glories the King even more. The title ‘Queen Mother’ had been passed down the ages since the days of King Solomon, the King’s mother will always be the Queen. But the catch is, she has insignificant authority, at most influence the King’s decision by a bit.

    In the case of Mary, Jesus as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Son of David (Father of King Solomon); what makes Mary less of a Queen in her Divine son’s Davidic kingdom? According to the book of Kings, the Queen mother’s request will not be refused by a King (That’s why people look for the Queen for help in the Bible), but only the King makes all authoritative decisions. So, this clearly shows that Mary as ‘Queen Mother’ does not subtract away Jesus’ authority, glory, power, majesty and everything else!

    Anyway, all Christians know that anyone who believes in & follows Christ are Saints (Holy Ones); and those who participates and cooperates in the sufferings of Christ (taking up your cross after him & communion) will share a part of his Glory. Then what makes Protestants think that Mary is not glorified, not worthy to be honored and shouldn’t be holy? Unless Christ lied? That’s more of a pure blasphemy and insult to the Glory of God IN Mary the Handmaid of the Lord (Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with you!) and All his Creations. God takes pride in his creations as he felt good after creating them (Book of Genesis).

    Next, in Magnificat (Gospel according to Luke), Mary’s soul will MAGNIFY the Lord (neither subtract nor astray from) and Henceforth, All generations SHALT call me BLESSED. Shall/Shalt IS a command you see, unless you believe that the word ‘SHALT’ in ‘You SHALT honour thy father thy mother, You SHALT not murder, You SHALT keep the Sabbath Holy, etc’ are not commands.

    Additionally, which of God’s creation in the Bible has the authority to COMMAND the Creator of the Universe to do something the Creator of the Universe he himself DIDN’T want to? Answer is obvious – Mary, our Creator’s favored chosen mother. You can read up on the famous changing of Water into Wine during the Wedding at Cana. This shows her authority in intercession; just like Abraham and Josue prayers for their people to win wars against their enemies. When they stop, they lost the war. You can read up from the OT.

    Also, Rosary is biblical because it is merely a tool for meditation on the mysteries of JESUS CHRIST. 90 % of it is meant solely for JESUS, the rest mainly to ask Mary to pray with us & reaffirming our faith in God (Apostle’s Creed & the Lord’s Prayer). Many Protestant think that the Rosary is all about repetitious prayers (and what they also believe is all about and to Mary) that is totally offensive to the Lord because he hates repetitious chants. But unfortunately, the Bible clearly states that the repetitious chants the Lord hates are chants to Pagan Gods (not to or for Christ) by Gentiles and INSINCERE chants that makes him puke.

    A more detailed explanation on Rosary here: http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_rosary.php

    Sometimes, I do understand that why Protestants think that during Catholic Masses in some churches (especially those dedicated to Mary), people genuflect to a statue of Mary on the altar. In actual fact, they don’t but genuflect to the Tabernacle box in front (which holds the Holy Eucharist – which contains the real presence of Lord Jesus Christ as believed by Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans as far as I know) not to Mary.

    Sometimes, i wonder if Protestants read up on their ‘Founder’ or ‘Protestant Father’ Martin Luther’s diary. He penned down so many praises for Mary, he even believed in Mary’s immaculate conception, perpetual virginity and assumption! He even urged his followers to continuously honour Mary, one of God’s most-favored creation, to honour God’s perfect glory, majesty and work. Notably, he also defended the need to honor of Mary in the early Protestant church; although he was excommunicated from the Catholic church and invented his own theories. If you don’t believe me, read up on his sermons in the past and his personal book of prayer.

    Next, another prominent excommunicated figure – King Henry VI. During the Protestant revolution started by Martin Luther, King Henry VI was lauded as a Catholic Apologetic or Defender of the Faith by the Pope – for criticizing Martin Luther’s theories and offenses against the Church. He was excommunicated because he wanted divorce, which was against the sacrament of marriage in the Church. Reformation was only after Queen Elizabeth; but Anglican High-churches are still similarly following a translated version of the Roman rite (If my memory serves me right).

    Pondering on so many of these things make me feels right to be a Catholic, a rightful Christian servant.

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