Originally published in Surprised by Truth 3
Author
HOW CAN I KEEP MY HEART FROM SINGING
Pam Forrester
When I was eight I asked my mom to take me to the little church at the end of our street. She began to drop me off every week for Sunday School. One Sunday, my teacher presented the Gospel and encouraged us to accept Jesus Christ as our savior.
“But,” she told us, “you must be willing to do anything for God, like be a missionary.”
Well, I really wanted to be saved but I did not want to be a missionary! I had to think this over. I went home and thought about it for a while, my little 8 year-old soul struggling against selfish desire. Some weeks later, I convinced myself that I would be willing to be a missionary for Jesus and I asked Him to come into my heart.
For years I had a very fervent faith, even up to my first year in college – when the theory of evolution and the desire to sin enticed me to abandon my faith. I conveniently became an atheist for two years during the 60’s. Then, my mom gave me a copy of The Late Great Planet Earth, a book about the second coming of Christ. After reading it, I decided that perhaps the Bible was relevant after all and not just some dusty old book I could safely ignore. So, I rededicated my life to Christ.
I gave a copy of the Late Great Planet Earth to my boyfriend Mike, a first-year medical student, and he committed his life to Christ too. A year later we took a Bible course called The Bethel Series – a two year overview of the whole Bible. We got married, taught Bethel, led small group Bible studies and studied Scripture in depth. We moved from California to Baltimore so Mike could do his surgery residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital. And then we moved to Houston so he could do specialty training.
***
Since we were convinced that the Bible alone was sufficient for faith and salvation, we wanted to know exactly what words in the Bible meant. I bought a Greek dictionary and a Greek interlinear Bible and taught myself to read the Greek alphabet. When Mike finished his residency we moved to California with our three young children. Mike set up practice in a small town north of San Diego. We found a great church and we joined a weekly Bible study group.
It was here that we first heard about the doctrine of Eternal Security – the belief that a once a Christian is “saved,” he cannot lose salvation no matter what he does. We objected initially, but were assured it was true, our friends firing off memorized Bible verses to support the doctrine. We backed down for a while. Then Mike began his own Bible study by listening to tapes of the Bible while exercising. I also studied, on my own, with my dictionaries, concordances and Greek interlinear. Before long, Mike was using these sources as well. We soon became convinced that there were hundreds of verses that did not align with the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. Our Bible study group swelled to overflowing as Mike taught how Scripture refuted Eternal Security. We were labeled Arminian even though we had never heard of Arminius or what he wrote. But we did reject Calvinism, especially the doctrine of Limited Atonement .
Our pastors did not agree with us, but since everything Mike was teaching was biblical he was allowed to continue as an elder in the church and even to teach from the pulpit several times a year. Some people agreed with us; some were convinced we were heretics and told us so. Mike’s sermons usually caused controversy. The Elder board tried to talk Mike out of speaking on Eternal Security issues; others tried to show us the error of our ways.
We worried about the people who might think they were eternally secure and bound for heaven no matter what kind of life they lived. My husband even wrote a two volume book and was asked to teach at a Bible college by a popular radio preacher in order to point out the errors of the “once saved, always saved” theology. We were still convinced that once all the biblical evidence was compiled it would be irresistibly persuasive and all our friends and pastors would see the truth.
But the evidence was met with a yawn. Those who disagreed with us didn’t refute the scriptural evidence – they just ignored it. We were astounded! We eventually realized that most people didn’t really practice sola scriptura after all; they clung to the Protestant traditions begun by Luther and Calvin, sometimes in spite of Scripture. After ten years of attempting to show how the Bible did not support Eternal Security, being called heretics, hearing through the grapevine about people who resented and suspected us, we became discouraged and disillusioned.
If I hadn’t been so thoroughly convinced there was a God, I could easily have become an atheist. In my heart I was prideful, arrogant, and critical. No church quite suited me since most Protestant churches incorporate some form of Calvinism. According to my understanding of the Bible, which I was convinced was led by the Holy Spirit, all the nearby churches were wrong about something. Despite this, I sensed that my attitude was not Christ-like, so I would pray about that. I wanted to be humble, but I just…wasn’t. “Maybe I am a heretic?” I wondered. “What makes me so sure I’m right and other Christians are wrong?” I desperately wanted to find a church where I could simply worship God without being critical. In the meantime, all I could do was studiously try to keep my mind from dwelling on criticisms. I thought I could be content in my apathy.
***
A few years later, in the summer 1997, while perusing home school curriculum catalogs, I saw a course for junior high school students designed to introduce Protestants to the Catholic faith and vice versa. The student was supposed to read the books in one order if he was Protestant and in the opposite order if he was Catholic, so that the last book read confirmed him in his own faith tradition. Since my oldest daughter had just started college at USD, a Catholic university, I decided that this would be the perfect time to find out more about the Catholic faith. That way if Heather came home with questions, I would be able to answer them. I didn’t want her to become Catholic!
I ordered three of the books. The first, Evangelical Is Not Enough was written by Thomas Howard, a convert to Catholicism and the brother of prominent Evangelical, Elizabeth Elliot( Through Gates of Splendor and End of the Spear). I had long been curious about why a “Christian” would join the Catholic Church, and found Howard’s story interesting. He also made a lot of sense, and I grew slightly annoyed that I had accepted so many misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Hey, I thought, maybe the Catholic Church wasn’t so weird after all.
One evening at our Bible study, my husband brought up John 14:26, where Jesus says,
“the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
Mike reminded every one that our usual interpretation of this verse was that this promise was given to each and every believer. The result has been that there are now over 25,000 different Protestant denominations. But the Catholic view, as Howard had explained it, is that this promise was made in the upper room to the twelve disciples and therefore it only applied to them and their successors: the Pope and the Catholic leaders. Without the final, ruling authority of Christ through the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium, the Catholic Church would splinter into even more sects than Protestantism.
I was quietly aghast because I wasn’t ready to say anything yet. No one said much and we went on with the study as usual. But I found out the next day that one of my best friends at the study had cried all the way home. She had been shocked to hear us say something outside of “Scripture alone”. And I didn’t blame her. I decided then not to say a word to anyone about my research into the Catholic Church until it became absolutely necessary, if ever.
After reading Howard’s book, I felt very broadminded toward the Catholic Church. But I did not sense the danger my Protestantism was in as I opened up the second book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. This book promised Catholic answers to the charges against “Romanism” by “Bible Christians”. By the time I had read about half of the book, I no longer felt broad minded, but sick and horrified all at once. I had read enough of Keating’s book to learn, for the first time, that Catholicism had a defense for beliefs like the Eucharist and Papacy. Keating’s use of Scripture was standard exegesis. It made sense. What I read in that book coalesced with doubts and questions I had put on the back burners of my mind. No longer simmering, they began to boil.
For instance, I had long wondered, how could each and every individual person’s faith rest on personal devotional Bible reading, when most people, until relatively modern times, couldn’t even read? And even if they could read, they wouldn’t be able to own their own personal Bible because Bibles were hand copied (until the 16th century) and very expensive.
Personal devotional Bible reading for growing in Christ began to seem suspiciously modern. Especially when I discovered that the Catholic Church had read Scripture to the faithful at every Mass for 2000 years. But could the Catholic Church be the one Church founded by Jesus Christ himself? No! Never! It couldn’t possibly be true. My soul in turmoil, I slammed Catholicism and Fundamentalism shut and grabbed the book that was supposed to confirm me in my Protestant faith, The Gospel According to Rome by James McCarty.
***
In McCarty’s book I was looking for a rebuttal to Catholic Scripture interpretation. I wanted to know why Jesus didn’t literally mean to eat His flesh in John 6, when that sure seemed like what He said. I wanted to know exactly why Jesus did not found His Church on Peter in Matthew 16, when that is what He said. I wanted to know what was wrong with confession to a priest when the Bible says, “confess your sins to one another,” and “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven….”
But, The Gospel According to Rome didn’t help at all. It didn’t address my questions, but merely explained why Catholicism was wrong according to traditional Protestant interpretations of certain Biblical passages. It never convincingly refuted the Catholic interpretation of verses that supported Catholic beliefs.
Now I really felt scared. I begged God to show me the truth about what was wrong with the Catholic Church. I did not want to be Catholic. There were no Catholics anywhere in either of our families. I had never been anti-Catholic; I believed there were a few real Christians in the Catholic Church in spite of Catholicism. I liked Catholics, I just didn’t want to be one!
I stopped reading for several weeks. I needed to get my perspective back. I thought and prayed. When I felt calm again, I picked up Keating’s book and finished it. Yes, the Catholic Church had good reasons, Biblical reasons, for its theology. But I was certain there had to be a good Protestant refutation, by somebody, somewhere.
But here was my dilemma. We had this early church that we trusted to tell us which writings floating around the ancient world were inerrant and inspired. It seemed logical, then, that we should therefore be able to trust this same church and the doctrines taught by it at least up until the time the Bible was canonized. Right? We always used to talk about the church of the Apostles and how it was the true model for Christian belief and practice. So when reading the Acts of the Apostles we sought to align our present day worship with what we found in sacred scripture. This goal of worshiping in imitation of the early church was a foundational principle. Therefore, you can imagine my shock when I discovered that this early church believed in that particularly Catholic doctrine, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again.”
-St. Ignatius of Antioch- 110 AD
“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes…so too, as we have been taught the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and the Blood of that incarnated Jesus.”
-St. Justin Martyr-150 AD
***
Jesus tells his followers eight times to eat His flesh in John 6. I came to the inescapable conclusion that the earliest Christians took Jesus literally. When I found out that even Martin Luther – one of the principal fathers of the Reformation – believed in the Real Presence I realized that Christians had always believed this doctrine.
This put me in a tough position.
On the one hand, the early Church canonized the Bible around 400 AD. On the other hand that very same early Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ (and, I was discovering, many other Catholic doctrines). The standard Protestant solution to this dilemma was that these strange Catholic doctrines were pagan corruptions of the pure and simple Christianity of the apostles. But I could no more take the Bible from the hand of a church that was supposed to be corrupted by paganism than I could accept the Pearl of Great Price (an extra biblical text considered part of inspired Scripture by Mormons) while rejecting everything else about the Mormon belief system. That seemed totally irrational. I couldn’t buy it.
Being a Protestant was like watching a Corpus Christi procession, then rushing up and knocking down the priests and nuns, candles, censors, crucifix, and monstrance but grabbing the Bible and carrying it away and basing faith on it alone. What sense does that make? I just could not find a logical way to accept the authority of the Bible while rejecting the beliefs of the very earliest Christian Church that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (which we all believe) chose the books that make up the Bible.
***
I began to read Catholic books, hoping to find the Church’s Achilles heel.
Nothing.
Still resisting, I called Hector, a pastor friend who had a ministry to bring Hispanics out of the Catholic Church. He seemed like a likely candidate to know the intricacies of Catholic doctrine and what was wrong with it. I told him what I was going through and he sympathetically recommended The Gospel According to Rome. I told him I’d read it and it wasn’t convincing.
Then he asked, “But, what about the fact that Jesus had brothers? The Bible talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus.”
My experience with Greek had already helped me tackle this question.
“I looked that up and the Greek word can legitimately be translated ‘kinsman’ or ‘brother’ depending upon the context,” I said. “And that same Greek word is translated ‘kinsman’ in lots of other places in the New Testament. Such as when Paul addresses the recipients of his epistles. So the Catholics could be right about Mary being ever-virgin,” I said.
He kindly promised to pray for me and we hung up. I silently stared into space and wondered, “Is that the best he can do?!”
A few hours later my pastor called. I decided Hector must have called him so I told him all about my dilemma. Then I asked,
“Why don’t we believe in the Real Presence of Christ in Communion when Jesus says in John 6 over and over that we must eat His body and drink His blood in order to have eternal life? Why don’t we take it literally like the Catholics do?”
“That is just symbolic,” he responded “because later Jesus says the flesh is of no avail.”
“Yes, Jesus says, ‘the flesh is of no avail’ but what does He mean by that? Jesus is God in the flesh. Is His flesh of no avail?”
“Well of course His flesh is important. The ‘flesh of Jesus availeth much.’ But Jesus is speaking symbolically when he talks about eating his flesh.”
“Ok, but how do we know that for certain?” I asked.
“Because cannibalism is strictly forbidden in the Old Testament.”
“You’re right. But the Old Testament prohibition against cannibalism is exactly why many of Jesus’ Jewish disciples left Him at this point saying, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’ And as far as we know Jesus didn’t chase after them and say, ‘Wait, I was only speaking symbolically!’ So the disciples who left understood Jesus to be speaking literally. Otherwise, why would they leave? So somehow Jesus must have been speaking literally and yet not advocating cannibalism. The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is literal and yet not literally cannibalistic since Jesus didn’t cut off His arm and pass is around saying, ‘Take, eat.’ How can we as Protestants respond to this?”
“Well, what about all the money they spent building cathedrals when people were starving?”
“But when they built a cathedral it was like a giant welfare project. People had work for years and years,” I replied.
He changed the subject again: “The Catholic Church became corrupted by pagan beliefs shortly after the apostles died.”
“Well then, wouldn’t that mean that the gates of Hell prevailed against His Church and Jesus was unable to keep that promise?”
“No…there was always a remnant.”
“But how can we know for sure that the remnant part of the Church, the true Church of Christ, was the one that canonized the Bible and not the corrupted part of the Church?”
“We just trust the Holy Spirit was able to do that.”
“But the earliest Christians held Catholic beliefs like the real presence and the perpetual virginity of Mary? Who threw these beliefs out? Luther believed them. Luther and Calvin believed Mary was a perpetual virgin. Who decided Mary definitely had other children when everyone right up to and including the Reformation believed she only gave birth to Jesus?”
Our conversation continued like this for a couple of hours. When he couldn’t give an answer he changed the subject. I wasn’t actually defending the Church at that point. I was telling him the Catholic viewpoint in desperate hope that he could give me a convincing Protestant rebuttal. But nothing he said was convincing.
Later I wrote him letters with about forty questions and included a review of the books I had read. He was in a doctoral program at the time, and I hoped maybe he could get some answers from his professors. When we talked again he said I had done so much research that he didn’t have time to get up to speed with me. He told me to go ahead and visit a Catholic Church, thinking that would put an end to my fantasy. It didn’t. Meanwhile I kept searching for a Protestant refutation of the Catholic Faith. There just had to be one.
***
Next, I watched a video debate between Father Mitch Pacwa S.J. and two prominent Protestant apologists (Walter Martin and John Ankerberg). Again, there was no refutation of Catholic claims, no explaining what was wrong with Catholic exegesis: only what was wrong with the Catholic beliefs, according to the interpretation of Scripture in a particular Protestant tradition. My husband, who was at once fascinated by the Catholic interpretation of Sacred Scripture and at the same time repulsed by the thought of becoming Catholic, was also disappointed that no one refuted the points Father Pacwa made. Martin and Ankerberg never explained why Fr. Pacwa’s interpretation was wrong. They merely condemned Catholic theology according to what they thought the Bible meant.
For example, I remember Walter Martin asking,
“Why does the Catholic Church believe Mary was without sin when she admits that God is her savior in Luke 1:47? She must have needed a savior because she sinned.”
Fr. Pacwa replied “Yes, she needed a savior. But, a person can be saved out of a pit after he has fallen in, or he can be saved from the pit before he falls in. We believe God saved Mary before she fell into sin by creating her, from conception, without the fallen nature caused by the stain of Original Sin, she otherwise would have inherited from her parents. So He created Mary without sin just like He created Adam and Eve without sin.”
Martin and Ankerberg would then go on to to another topic without dealing with Fr. Pacwa’s explanations.
***
Then, I decided to find out why some of my ex-Catholic friends had left the Church. One of them, I was surprised to learn, was on the verge of returning to the Catholic Church. The others had just drifted away when their parents could no longer make them go to Sunday Mass. None had left for any particular doctrinal reason.
One friend assured me the Catholic Church was really weird and unscriptural because she remembered, as a young, devout Catholic, having to go from church to church all in one day in order to say prayers for her loved ones. She assured me that she couldn’t pray for all the people she cared about in one church, but was only allowed pray for one person per church. I have since asked priests and lay Catholic friends if they have ever heard of this; none have. Perhaps she was either misinformed or misunderstood. Even if it were true, it seems to me little reason to reject the Church!
***
After six months of frantic detective work, I had exhausted every avenue I could think of to find a Protestant rebuttal to Catholic doctrine. There were of course many great Protestant arguments out there.
The trouble with them was that they rebutted doctrines that Catholics didn’t believe. For instance, you could find lots of apologetic material condemning the worship of Mary, complete with scriptures against idolatry. But that was useless, since the Catholic Church too condemns the worship of Mary. Most importantly, I could find no good Protestant reason for the rejection of the Real Presence in the Eucharist when John 6 so clearly has Jesus commanding his disciples to eat His flesh, and historically all Christians believed this doctrine for the first 1500 years of Christianity. I finally “knocked at the door” of my parish church and began the process of entering the Church.
When I told my friends, they were mostly kind and accepting. Some tried to dissuade me from entering the Church. And one friend, Donna, invited me to go to hear anti-Catholic, apologist Bart Brewer speak about the Catholic Church at a large nondenominational church in a nearby town. I knew Brewer was an ex-priest and anti-Catholic but I went anyway. The Easter Vigil was only months away. I wanted to let him take his best shot at me before I entered the Church. But as it turned out his was just the same old attack on the Catholic Church without refuting the scriptural and historical evidence for its doctrines.
Surprisingly, Donna saw through his double standard. While Brewer criticized and condemned the Catholic Church for relying on the “Bible plus the Catechism” instead of relying on the Bible alone, she was struck by the realization that he wasn’t sola scriptura either! He was relying on the Bible plus Calvin’s Institutes. She found him totally useless in helping her to “deprogram” me.
***
Eighteen months after my inquiry began, I embraced the Holy Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil 1999. Our four youngest children were received into the Catholic Church at Easter 2000 with my husband’s permission. My husband and three oldest children are still Protestant but they are very supportive – especially my husband In fact, Mike is currently leading a Catholic/Protestant Bible study on the Gospel of John, with the stated purpose of teaching the biblical basis for Catholic theology. At first, I thought he would quickly follow me into the Church, but he has his own path to follow on the journey of faith.
But Donna entered the Catholic Church at Easter 2002. I am thankful to my Protestant teachers for the solid foundation they laid in me about the truths of Christianity, the illusions of worldly passions, and encouragement to study God’s Holy Word. It fed my soul for forty years. The irony is, I studied the Bible so much I uncovered many discrepancies between some Protestant doctrines and Sacred Scripture. This was the beginning of my loss of confidence in Protestant Christianity
But it wasn’t until Catholic authors made me face the historical evidence that Christianity preexisted the New Testament by 400 years that I began to consider the implications of this fact. That the Faith was alive, making converts, establishing churches, instructing and baptizing converts for so long (for reference, 400 years ago was about the time the Pilgrims came to America!) before the New Testament was compiled, meant that the New Testament could not be the touchstone of the Faith. The New Testament was not the very first reservoir of Christian teaching.
Something else existed before it.
And that same “something else” kept the Faith alive and also gave birth to the New Testament. It was the oral teaching, the deposit of the Faith of the Apostles, that was used to make the final decisions about which books would end up in the New Testament. No book was included in the canon of the New Testament that contradicted the Faith of the Apostles. And that is why, I discovered to my joy, that nothing in Catholic doctrine contradicts anything in the Bible. The Bible, loved by Protestants as well as Catholics, the inspired and inerrant word of God, was written and published by the Catholic Church.
The icing on the cake of solid, scriptural Catholic doctrine was the beauty and poetry of Catholic worship. Its reverence in comparison to modern Evangelical praise services spoke to me of its ancient pedigree and authenticity. The Mass is ancient and Jewish – closer in form to Temple worship than to a Calvary Chapel. The ritual, prayers, and priestly robes are more Old Testament than my former Evangelical Free Church. And the incense and chants echo the heavenly worship found in the Book of Revelation better than any Baptist service.
In the end, a thousand tiny puzzle pieces of Bible verses, doctrines, prayers history, martyrs, liturgy, came together to form for me a clear image of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
“It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair.”
-G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936)
Pam Forrester writes from Fallbrook, California, where she lives with her husband, Mike, of thirty two years. They have seven children. The youngest was six when her mother entered the Catholic Church.
Technorati Tags: Catholic, conversion, Catholic+conversion

I read your Conversion story. Hooray, and belated Welcome. I, too, love being a Catholic.
Thank you for using Blog technology to Share your Catholic faith, as JPII recommended in the New Evangelism. I’m not an Apologist, but hope to use my blog (brand new at it) as an example of one living the Catholic life.
Maryellen
I really enjoyed your story.
It made me happy to know that you embraced
truth and it lead you here.
Kudos for following your heart and not letting
pride get into way.
Thank you for posting
God Bless
It is amazing how God works! You got your basics from Protestantism and found what you were missing in the Catholic Church. I got my basics from the Catholic Church, and found a love for the Bible and fellowship through Protestantism. I am looking forward to coming back to your blog. Peace.
What a great story. I was 40 when we entered the Church, Easter 2006.
God bless your work here. May it bear much fruit.
Tim
Beautiful. In the end, a thousand tiny puzzle pieces of Bible verses, doctrines, prayers history, martyrs, liturgy, came together to form for me a clear image of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Is the title a reference to a Rich Mullins song?
God Bless
Sometimes things seem beautiful but are a deception. I am afraid for you please read my comment above or below, or both.
Protestants and Catholics are both wrong. I do not say this without good cause. Please see my comment @ either “undyingself” above or @ Bob Hinnenkamp below
Jesus founded one church. It is evident that He did not found either the Protestant church or the Catholic church. See my comment above @ undyingself.
There is not as much truth in the story as you may think. Check out the comment above.
Wow, what a story! I am in the process now and will be hopefully received Easter of 2008. For me, I was a protestant, but only in name. I studied catholic beliefs in college and ended up usually having to defend the church from ugly slanders even though I wasn’t catholic. My biggest concern was that I didn’t want to jeopardize all the time and effort I had put into my (protestant) church–I was in the discernment process for ordained ministry. I also really liked the people in my church and didn’t want to leave them. One day I heard in the gospel Jesus saying that we should always look forward and not backward “once you have touched the plow you cannot go back” Something about it said “stop pretending and take the plunge.” Thanks for your work and all I can say for living in California is “Courage!” It takes a lot to remain faithful to catholic doctrine in an atmosphere of, shall we say, wayward orthodoxy–believe me, I know! Thanks again.
A poignant and most encouraging witness to the Faith. I am encouraging others to visit the site to give your story a read as well as the other fine work you have done. Many thanks and Advent blessings to you and yours!
Fr. Charles
Wonderful story. I am in the midst of educating myself on the Catholic Church. I have been for a bout a year now, and the Chesterton Quote is proving truer every day. I don’t think I’ll be able to go much longer without converting.
when baptized, do you have to go under the water ?
Yes, you must be immersed for that is the meaning of the Greek word and the example of the scriptures. The translators did not translate that word, but rather transliterated it because men had Apostatized the practice and had begun to pour and sprinkle in stead. Therefore, the translators did not want to make it evident that the practice of that day was not according to the scriptures.
See also my comments above, below, or on Mrs. Forrester’s home page.
Not necessarily. Water must run over part or all of the body–usually at least the head. Full immersion is a fuller sign but in arid climates if full immersion was absolutely required this would have been a great hardship on the Church and the one desiring baptism. So living water is the first choice, that is running water, moving water but for the sick in bed,babies,and for the sake of making baptism as accessible as possible some water may be poured over the catechumen three times in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Pam – Very well done. I’m impressed. I would
like to converse with you some more on this but wou
would like to do it via e-mail which would be
less cumbersome. Look forward to hearing from
you. It has been a long time. Dale Fort
Wonderful story! When you really get down to it, all of the seven supposedly unscriptural sacrements can be found right in scripture, and again, to the fundamentalist “sola scriptura” group, it’s easy enough to point them towards John 20:30 when defending Tradition.
If you enjoyed your journey from Protestantism to Catholicism, you might like to read up on the Orthodox Church. There are certain things which Rome changed, or added to the Christian faith, and you’ll find that it is the Orthodox Church which preserved the original faith of the Apostles.
Not to say that Catholicism isn’t true, but when I was Catholic they loved to say that it was in Catholicism where Protestants could find the fullness of Christianity, and now I’ve come to discover that the Orthodox can say the same to Catholics!
+God bless, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!
[...] testimony is that there are many already that say better what I’d say – for example Pam Forrester or, more extensively, Thomas Howard’s wonderful little book Evangelical is Not [...]
Pam, bless you abundantly for sharing your
providential move from protestantism to
Catholicism. I am following in your footsteps. albeit
with “fear and trembling” as Paul says. Is there a
time when I will sense a definite “break through”
coming, so that I will have the spiritual stamina
and desire for ultimate Truth to keep on keeping
on?When will I “know that I know”‘ or is this just another step of faith by which I will arrive at the Gates
guarded by St. Peter where I will either be allowed
to enter or be sent
back for further study.
at the age of 72, I am writing my Spiritual Memoirs as commissioned by the Lord who has led
me to this place in my search, having told me
in advance that He will be separating wheat from chaff in me, especially “doctrinal error.”
I needed to read your testimony,for I was on the verge
of pulling back in order to rethink the path
I am on and have been on for almost two years.
Now, having read of your conversion, I am continuing
on and not turning back.
Question: How can I access your other writings?
Do you have an email or web address?
Please reply. Sarah
Mrs. Forrester, the dark side of your route is that it wasn’t Mr. Forrester’s route too. Perhaps, a 75 years’ old cradle Catholic, who never had any doubt, but did have to find a rationale for what he was when challenged, and for what he did when tempted, might be able to tell him something useful that a lady can’t.
He is welcome to get in touch, and the Simplesinner knows me. I haven’t asked but I am confident, he will establish a bridge.
God bless.
Michael
Thanks Michael. His name is Michael too. I will let him know.
Does your husband attend Mass with you?(Am I correct in understanding he has not converted?)
Also, I have not had a chance to begin RCIA, I have a few questions. Other than communion, may I participate in other “activities”(I don’t know a better word!) at Mass? Kneeling, reciting the creeds(it is the same as I grew up with) such as that? I have asked my husband and he is like…. I think so!
Thanks and have a blessed day!
Yes. You are absolutely welcome to participate in everything at your parish. The sacraments are the only thing that you need to wait for.
May God bless you richly on your journey of Faith.
Thank You!
One more question. How do I get directly here( I told you I am not too bright! ha) I keep going to TBC and clicking on your link, please advise me of a direct link!
Thanks!
I was just wondering about Mary. Why does the Catholic church believe that mary was always a virgin? Has anyone ever read Matthew 1: 24-25 ” When Joseph woke up and did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he(Joseph) had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
It looks like to me that they did not have sex with her until AFTER Jesus was born. And if you know anything about the Jewish culture, it was forbidden to be married and not have sex. If you refused your husband could divorce you.
Lynne,
Good questions. Because this is such a big issue for non Catholics I have several posts in answer to these issues. You can click on the topic Mary or take a look at these posts in particular.
Luther on Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Who were the brothers and sisters of Jesus?
If you norws Calvins position, the until does not mean that after they did have sex. We use it that way a lot but also in scripture there is this:
And Michal had not children UNTIL the day of her death.
We know Michal didn’t have any children on the day she died or afterwards. That is not the meaning. So the contention that the verse you have cited can have no other interpretation other than that Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus’ birth, is not true. Given the fact that all the early fathers of the Church spoke of the perpetual virginity of Mary the evidence is in favor of the Catholic interpretation.
There was no absolute necessity that Mary be a perpetual virgin but it is just a historical fact. And the Church is in the business of teaching the truth. Mary took a vow before of perpetual virginity befoe the Angle visited her. Immaculate Conception of Mary
Hello, my name is Rachel and I am a new Catholic. If it’s okay, I’d like to share my story:
I had never been a serious Christian growing up. I went to an Evangelical Church, got “saved” many times and never meant it. I was agnostic all through college then in my last year decided I wanted to learn Latin. I had a friend who was Catholic, I asked him to take me to a Latin Mass so I could hear the language. I went there and felt the presence of God- especially strong around communion time. When the priest lifted the wafer and said “hoc est corpus meum, ” I knew I was missing something.
I asked God if he wanted me to join the Catholic church, he gave me two signs (one in a dream where these people were singing about the “black hat of the Holy Spirit” and then the next day I found a black hat). The other was a flood of emotion during a mass. Needless to say after much examination, I entered RCIA and got confirmed Easter 2008. My life has had new meaning since. I have had numerous spiritual experiences and a love for Christ I did not think myself capable of.
I am new to this site so I’m sorry if I posted this in the wrong place.
Rachel,
Welcome the Catholic Church. Your note rejoices my heart. Stay strong, cling to Christ, receive the sacraments often (confession and communion)
Rachel, great story!
Be blessed!
Thank you all. When I was in college (mind my last year) I had a great Mass schedule: I went to Latin Mass on Sat, English on Sun, and another Mass during the week. Now I only go once or twice a week, usually once now that winter has hit and I don’t have a car. Oh, I miss summer when I’d walk 1.5 miles to Adoration!
I noticed you take alot of reference from
what man speaks rather than from the Word of God that is the Scriptures.
John 6 : 29 Jesus spoke:the Work of God is to believe in His Son.
At the Mt of Transfiguration, Peter, james & John had witnessed Jesus together with Moses & Elijah. peter said that it would be good to build a temple for each of them. Immediately, God’s cloud came down and covered them and God spoke : This is my Beloved Son, Listen to Him!”.
Peter tried to put Moses & Elijah in the same position as Jesus and God came down immediately and spoke. Listen to Him. Moses & Elijah knew how to step back – because it is all about Jesus that God is concerned. Peter James & John were probably in fear because Jesus told them “Rise, do not fear.”
We should always refer to scriptures. What does the Scripture speaks & it’s stand. Scripture is the word of God. If Scripture said Jesus ascended above. It happened as it is. Not what man declared. When The Holy Spirit of God breath words into the prophets – that is the Word of God. God gave the title Morning Star and so forth. man has no right to give to another human. We should always focus on Jesus. Even in the old testamount, God was speaking about Jesus from the King Melchidezek, the PassOver lamb to the Rock that Moses strike to the Psalms that declares jesus to the book of Isaiah that speaks of The Holy One of Israel – nobody else except jesus, Son of the Living God. Even the Tabernacle Sacrifice speaks of Jesus If you understand the Levitical worship. We boast of the Lord not of humans. Romans 3 :4 states : Let God be the Truth and every man a liar.”
The Bible is called the Word of God.
Jesus is The Word of God
He is the Word that was made flesh
He is the The Messiah
He is The Son of the Living God
He is the Savior
He is our Righteousness
If Christ Justifies us who is to opposed?
If Abraham was credited as Righteous for His Belief and so did Noah who believed God. It is our believed in our heart that we are justified and it is through our confession(speaking forth/declaring) we are saved – Romans 10 :10
He died and rose. He is Risen.
The Gospel of Salvation is the Good News that He delivers by His Grace. It is also called The Gospel of Christ.
He is The Son of God whom God send to redeem us so that we may be recounciled to God through Christ.
He is in the order of the Priesthood of Melchidezek.
He is the Amen
He is Risen King & He will come again.
Let us not boast in Man but let us boast in the Lord.
It is not because of my effort I am made the rightousness of God but it is by Christ effort in His Sacrifice.
It is not how much I love God but how much God loved me
It is not about what i can do for God but it is about what God had done for me.
My God loves me and it is because of this I am writing.
signed
Beloved of God
Davide dennis chua
PS why are there so many religiouns in the world – it is to distract us from focusing on Jesus. Let’s not compromise The Word of God. Christ Order does not conform to church order but the church which is the body of Christ conforms to Christ ordinances.
David: I noticed you take a lot of reference from
what man speaks rather than from the Word of God that is the Scriptures.
DAVID: We should always refer to scriptures.
DAVID: If Abraham was credited as Righteous for His Belief
DAVID: It is our belief in our heart that we are justified and it is through our confession(speaking forth/declaring) we are saved – Romans 10 :10
“As regards religions, there have always been many different pagan religions but only ONE TRUE RELIGION. The real tragedy is that the Protestants split off from the Church established by Christ on Peter (Matthew 16:18 )”
And almost equally as sad that the Bishop of Rome split off from the rest of the Church 500 years before the Protestants.
At the beginning the Bishop of Rome was always accorded the honors of “first among equals” but there wasn’t any one single head of the Church. The Bishop of Rome kept pushing it that way rather than relying on church councils and this is one of the things which lead to the Roman Chruch schisming from what came to be known as the Eastern Orthodox churches.
“Nothing the Catholic Church believes contradicts anything is scripture and nothing ever will because the Catholic Faith gave birth to the Scripture.”
There are actually 3 areas where the Catholics do deviate (1) papal infallibility as a dogma, (2) the immaculate conception of Mary, and (3) the filioque, where the Bishop of Rome changed the Creed without approval from the rest of the Church to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son while the original creed and scripture states only that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
-The “filioque” was put into effect to clear away any misconceptions about the nature of the Trinity. People at the time were diverting and believing that Jesus was not one with the Father and did not exist beforehand.- that he was created and not begotten.
There’s nothing heretical about refining the creed to combat misconceptions.
-The Immaculate Conception is just plain logic. Jesus could never have been born from sin. Therefore, God kept her from sin.
Rachel, you have been doing your homework.
Doulos, Here we come to interpretation again only this time it is the interpretation of events. We interpret these event just the opposite of you. The orhtodox churches left the Catholic Church.
Also my understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox churches believe in Mary’s immaculate conception but they don’t have a dogma about it. Is that correct?
Yes, the filioque doesn’t necessarily have anything theologically wrong with it, the problem came when the Bishop of Rome decided to change the creed without approval from the rest of the Chruch. You have to remember that at this time in history there was no single leader of the Church. The Church decided things in councils, where representatives from the five major patriarchates would get together.
The rest of the Church resisted this change by one single Patriarch, but there was also some theology in the choice. We have always maintained that the Father is the single source of the other hypostasis, and that it is in the Father that the Spirit and the Word have their being. The Church felt that by stating that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, it was interferring with the economy of the Trinity and relegating the Spirit to a lesser place. There’s more complex nuances to the discussion, but I won’t get into them here.
And I can understand where the idea of the Immaculate Conception came from. It does make sense of the surface that Christ couldn’t have been born ‘from sin’ but think of it this way. The Immaculate Conception is an idea that states that Mary was completely free of any part of Original Sin. If Christ, who was perfect, had to be born free from original sin, then how was Mary able to be born perfect from sinful parents? Would Anna and Joachim need to be free from sin as well? What about their parents? Or theirs? If we follow the seemingly simple logic then it follows that there would have to be line of people kept free from the effects of orignial sin all the way back to Adam and Eve.
The idea of the Immaculate Conception did not come about until the 11th century. It didn’t become a dogma until 1854. Scripture clearly tells us that the only person free from sin was Christ.
This isn’t to say that Mary did not commit any sins after birthing Christ or that she didn’t live a holy and righteous life before (there’s an Orthodox tradition that Mary was consecrated from early childhood as a temple virgin), but there is nothing to suggest that Mary was made absolutely impervious to the effects of sin from birth.
Bfhu, I’m not trying to talk bad about the Catholic Church or implying that it isn’t a Chruch of God, far from it! But history does show that it was the Bishop of Rome who schismed from the true Chruch. Rome was one of 5 Patriarchates. It left the communion of the rest of the Church. The other four Patriarchates still exist and are still doing things the same way things have been done since before the Great Schism, and it is only the Roman church that has deviated and is doing things differently.
And know, we don’t necessarily believe in the Immaculate Conception. None of the Holy Fathers teach the idea and in fact at the theological level we are oppossed to it. It might be true though that those who have live in the Western world and who are not involved in depth in the theology might believe in it and have been influenced by the Roman Chruch’s hold in the western world, but the Church herself is against the idea.
Doulos,
The Eastern Churches fell into heresy frequently and Rome did not leave or split from the Easterns.
The Immaculate Conception was always believed and enshrined in Dogma
In 1854 only b/c the inroads of Protestantism caused confusion among the faithful.
The Immaculate Conception is an idea that states that Mary was completely free of any part of Original Sin. If Christ, who was perfect, had to be born free from original sin, then how was Mary able to be born perfect from sinful parents?
Would Anna and Joachim need to be free from sin as well?
I think theres a metaphor about this:
Say a person was walking and they fell in a deep pit. If someone else gave that person a rope they would be saved. Now say that before the person fell into the pit, that other person grabbed them first. Someone (God)still had to intervene in both cases. God intervened by saving Mary from sin in the first place.
Unfortunately the Immaculate Conception is not an idea that has always been believed. This is not theological opinion, but historical fact.
However, I’m not trying to say that it’s a “heretical” dogma in the sense that believing in it would lead to a loss of grace, no, I don’t believe that all. Just that it’s not scriptural, and it’s not traditional, and only found in the West near to the start of, and the prominently after the Great Schism. It has its basis in the the theology of St. Augustine and how we envisions original sin.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that original sin is something that transmitted from generation to generation, some ‘thing’ which gets passed along. It believes that we are held accountable for the sin of Adam. One of the consequences is that the Western Church then had to explain how Mary could birth God if she was tainted by this original sin.
However the Eastern Chruches don’t believe in the same formulation of original sin. We believe that we are only held accountable for our own individual sin. If God is just, then why hold us accountable for a sin not committed by us? However, we believe that we inherit the effects of that original sin, namely subjugation to the passions and ultimately death.
With this formulation there was never any need to justify Mary’s giving birth to God.
While we don’t believe that Mary was a priori saved from ever even being capable of sinning due to not inheriting the original sin (in the Augustinian formulation) we do believe that she lived a life free of sin after she was born.
The Eastern Churches fell into heresy frequently and Rome did not leave or split from the Easterns. What heresies? And we can debate who left who all we want and not get anywhere. The history is there. It was the Bishop of Rome who first laid a bull of excommunication, though if I remember correctly it wasn’t the Pope himself, but rather the Pope’s messanger, even though the Pope hadn’t gone ahead and given his explicit approval. I was Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy so please believe that I made the decision extremely seriously and only after long research and prayer.
But anyways, what frequent heresies have we fallen into?
That’s cool with me. I had a lot of questions before I became Catholic (I used to be Evangelical) I still have much learning to go. Perhaps we are more similar than we thought.
Doulos: What frequent heresies have we (Eastern Orthodox) fallen into?
BFHU:
Arius and Arianism-From Alexandria and Lybia
Nestorius and Nestorianism-From Syria
Docetism-arose in the diocese of Antioch
Apollinarius and Apollinarians from Laodicia
Theodotus-Modalists/Sabellians/Monarchians/adoptianism–From Byzantium
Gnosticism-pagan and predated Christianity but became a Christian heresy in western Asia,Syria, Alexandria
Timothy Ælurus Monophysitsm/momothelitism from Alexandria/Egypt
Ebion and Ebionites a gnostic heresy from Bashan
Marcion and Marcionism-Asia Minor
Manichaeism-Mani-Persia
Some of these infected the West as well but they tended to persist longer in the East and of course there were heresies from the West as well but the most widespread and long lasting were of Eastern origin. The East has a long history of holy priests, bishops and fathers of the Church. I could not tell you why the heresies tended to arise from Easterns or what it really means…
Ah, but all of those heresies arose before the schism, were put down by the united Church, so it’s unfair to say that the Eastern Orthodox Churches have ‘frequently fallen into heresey” while the Roman Catholic Chruch hasn’t.
As to their area of origin, I would say it probably has to do with the Western Church being largely cut off from the rest of Christiandom after Constantine moved the captial to Byzantium (the other four Patriarchates are also in the east) so Rome was a little out of the loop. Also, the East tends to be more experiential, more philosophical whereas the West tends to be more juridical and law-driven.
And if we want to be completely fair about the Schism between East and West, the fact that Rome was so cut off from the rest of Christiandom is what probably ultimately lead to the diverging views. It was much easier for the other four Patriarchates to communicate in a shorter amount of time than it was with Rome.
Hi,
I was born Catholic and have a long tradition on both sides of my family. I haven’t been to Church for quite some time nor lived the right lifestyle. I want to change that. I don’t really even remember much about the process but I have picked up a bible and am learning the Rosary prayers. I have two primary questions in my quest to find the path:
1. What book should I be reading? I see a lot of commentary about the cannonized bible and am not sure which book this is. King James?
2. I am no longer familiar with the Church and want to feel comfortable. Is there a way that someone who is not a convert can reconnect?
Thanks
RMF,
Thanks for your comment. In order to return you only need to go to confession. Tell the priest your story. He will help you with any particulars. Canonization is simply the process of authoritatively deciding which NT books to include. The Catholic Church simply received the Greek Old Testament from the Jews which was also included in the official list of infallible books of the Bible. The King James Version is a Protestant English translation that currently is missing seven books from the Old Testament.
You should probably get a Catholic translation. I recommend the Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition. There is also a Protestant edition but it too is missing seven OT books removed by Martin Luther 500 years ago.
I would recommend that you read perhaps a collection of conversion stories by Catholics who left the Church and then returned. A Rebel Returns to the Catholic Faith: The Conversion Story of Jeff Cavins
Hmmm….I thought I had seen a book or two of reversion stories but can’t find one to link to here. The reversion stories of Catholics who returned to the Catholic Church will probably offer you points that you can identify with. Even Protestant conversion stories like the three Surprised by Truth books.
To understand your faith better I would recommend
Beginning Apologetics 1
An amazing and inspiring book of Jewish conversion stories
Honey From the Rock The editor of this book, Roy Schoeman, a Jewish convert has a website where you can access these conversion stories too.
You might find this forum interesting.
Coming Home Network
This is an excellent website and you can even ask them for personal answers. Response time may be a bit slow b/c they are busy.
Catholic Answers
Well that should be more than enough to get you started. No I don’t own stock in Amazon
You might be able to get some of these books from your library. You can get a cheaper Catholic Bible New American Bible I just don’t like the translation very well.
I really enjoyed reading your story. I am going through RCIA right now so I can be Baptized and Confirmed at the Easter Vigil. Six months ago I was really scared that God was calling me to be Catholic, because you know, they are crazy Mary worshipers, at least that is what the Protestants told me. Now I am really excited and so thankful that God has shown me the truth of the Catholic Church.
I would love to hear your story.
Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!
Jer 23:18 “But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened?
Lam 2:17 The LORD has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His word Which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing, And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries.
********Joh 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. *********
Roman Cathlicos are mistaken on Sola Scriptura John 5:38 is proof
Roman Catholics abide in Roman peganism not in the slpending of His Word.
1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
1Jn 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
******1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.*****
His commandments? and were do we find These ?
???????????????????????????????????
roboman:
John 5:38 doesn’t prove anything. We totally agree with all the scripture you have quoted here. So, there is nothing here to prove that the Catholic Faith is wrong or contradictory to scripture.
You begin with a conviction that we are wrong or pagan and then judge our beliefs. Then you find verses that warn to bolster your prior opinion.
If you have a scripture that directly contradicts our faith we would be interested in hearing what you think it is. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant tradition of men, invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago.
You said that Sola Scriptura cant found in the Bible , Catholics claim that the Word of God is not the athority.
Scripture Interprets Scripture Based on Divine Revelation wich means there is no Revalation inless Scripture Interprets Scripture , The word is the Authority in Heaven and on earth.
All of Pauls teachings esp. in Romans is based on this 1/2 of Romans are quotes from the Old Testiment. and Hebrews there’s even more. Thats divine Revelation being fullfilled. Not through a buliding in Rome but of the Holy Spirit.
Num 11:23 The LORD said to Moses, “Is the LORD’S power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not.”
Roboman,
Correction: Roman Catholics certainly DO claim that the word of God is infallible and has great authority. We do not believe Scripture is the ONLY authority. But no Catholic doctrine may contradict anything in scripture. And it does not. The only thing it contradicts is various Protestant interpretations of scripture.
The problem for sola scriptura Protestants is that they claim scripture is their only authority and yet the doctrine of sola scriptura can NOT be found anywhere in scripture. That is because it is a man made doctrine.
All the Dogmas written by the Early Saints were also Just mere men. Wernt they not?
And all of scripture also was written by mere men.
?
Sola gratia
Roman Catholics belive Grace has too be imputed from a Priest From The Roman Catholic faith. This acuall condericts scriuptrure.
“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:15-16). ”
1Pe 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
God is the one to establish you in Grace not a Roman Cathlic Priest
God’s grace is communicated through the priest but that is not the only method and it does not contradict scripture.
Again the verses you quote are wonderful but they don’t contradict our Catholic Faith.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Solus Christus
AMEN!
Soli Deo gloria
The reformers believed that human beings—even saints canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, the popes, and the ecclesiastical hierarchy—are not worthy of the glory that was accorded them. That is that one should not exalt such humans for their good works, but rather praise and give glory to God who is the author and perfecter of these people and their good works.
The Glory is of God
Not men
That may have been their opinion but upon what scripture did they base this?
The Saints are ordinary human beings who lived lives of heroic virtue. We recognize them and honor them as examples to inspire us to live holy lives. That is all.
We both admire the Saints and praise and give glory to God who is the author and perfector of the Saints and all people’s good works.
Sola fide
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Faith in the Good news , His Good news,
In Christ: Matt. 7:24, 25 Luke 6:46–49. Matt. 8:2, 13; Matt. 9:22, 29; Matt. 11:6, 28–30; Matt. 14:27 John 6:20. Matt. 15:28; Matt. 17:7; Mark 9:23; Mark 16:16; Luke 7:9, 50; Luke 8:50 Mark 5:36. Luke 17:6; Luke 18:42; John 1:12; John 3:14–16, 18, 36 John 6:47. John 5:24; John 6:29, 35, 45; John 7:38; John 9:35; John 11:25, 26, 40; John 12:36, 44, 46; John 13:7, 20; John 14:1, 11, 12; John 16:27, 33; John 18:37; John 20:27, 29, 31; Acts 3:16; Acts 10:43; Acts 15:9, 11; Acts 16:31; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:18; Rom. 3:22–28; Rom. 9:33; Rom. 10:4, 9; Gal. 2:16; Gal. 3:1–29; Gal. 5:6; Eph. 1:12–14; Eph. 3:12, 17; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:9; Col. 2:7; 1 Tim. 1:16; 2 Tim. 1:13; 2 Tim. 2:1; 2 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 4:16; Heb. 6:19; Heb. 10:22; Heb. 12:2; Heb. 13:7; 1 Pet. 1:8; 1 Pet. 2:6, 7 Isa. 28:16. 2 Pet. 1:1; 1 John 3:23; 1 John 5:4, 5, 10, 13, 14; Jude 21; Rev. 1:17; Rev. 3:18, 20
In Christ, Exemplified: Matt. 8:2; Matt. 9:18, 21 [Mark 5:28; Luke 8:48.] Matt. 9:28; Matt. 14:33; Matt. 15:27 vs. 26,28;; Mark 7:27–30. Matt. 16:16; Mark 9:24 John 9:38. Luke 5:5; Luke 7:3–9 Matt. 8:5–10. Luke 23:42; John 4:29, 42; John 6:14, 68, 69; John 7:31; John 10:41, 42; John 11:21, 22, 27 v. 32.; John 16:30; John 20:28; Acts 8:37; Acts 11:17; Rom. 7:24, 25; Rom. 8:35, 37; 2 Cor. 12:9, 10; Gal. 2:20; Phil. 4:13; 1 Tim. 1:14; 2 Tim. 1:12; 2 Tim. 4:18 Instances of Faith in Christ: The wise men of the east, Matt. 2:1, 2, 11. Peter, Matt. 4:18–22; Mark 1:16–20; Luke 5:4, 5; John 6:68, 69. Andrew, Matt. 4:18–22; Mark 1:16–20; John 1:41. James and John, Matt. 4:21, 22; Mark 1:19, 20. The woman with the issue of blood, Matt. 9:21, 22. Jairus, for the healing of his daughter, Matt. 9:18, 23–25. Two blind men, Matt. 9:29, 30. Blind Bartimaeus and a fellow blind man, Matt. 20:30–34; Mark 10:46–52; Luke 18:35–42. The Samaritan leper, Luke 17:11–19. The sick of Gennesaret, Matt. 14:36; Mark 3:10; 6:54–56. Those who brought the paralytic to Jesus, Luke 5:18–20. The Syrophenician woman, Matt. 15:22–28; Mark 7:25–30. The woman who anointed Jesus’ feet, Luke 7:36–50. Those who brought sick of Palsy, Matt. 9:2. Philip, John 1:45, 46. Nathanael, John 1:49. The Samaritans, who believed through the preaching of Jesus, John 4:39–42; through the preaching of Philip, Acts 8:9–12. The nobleman whose child was sick, John 4:46–53. Abraham, John 8:56. The blind man whom Jesus healed on the Sabbath, John 9:13–38. Mary, the sister of Martha, Luke 10:38–42; John 11:32. John the disciple, John 20:8. The disciples, through the miracle at Cana of Galilee, John 2:11. Jews at Jerusalem, John 2:23; 8:30; 11:45; 12:11. Three thousand at Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Five thousand, Acts 4:4. Multitudes, Acts 5:14. The cripple at Lystra, Acts 14:9. Stephen, Acts 6:8. Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 8:37. People of Lydda and Saron, Acts 9:35; of Joppa, Acts 9:42; of Antioch, Acts 11:21–24. Barnabas, Acts 11:24. Eunice, Lois, and Timothy, 2 Tim. 1:5; Acts 16:1. Lydia, Acts 16:14. Philippian jailer, Acts 16:31–34. Crispus, Acts 18:8. The Corinthians, Acts 18:8; 1 Cor. 15:11. Jews at Rome, Acts 28:24. Ephesians, Eph. 1:13, 15. Colossians, Col. 1:2, 4. Thessalonians, 1 Thess. 1:6; 3:6–8; 2 Thess. 1:3, 4. Philemon, Philem. 5. Church at Thyatira, Rev. 2:19.
The evidance the Bible lays out is overwhleming.
********1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. *****
You still have not pointedly given me one scripture that contradicts one Catholic Doctrine.
I don’t exactly know what you are hoping to accomplish which such a long list of scriptures. We love the Bible. We believe the Bible. We canonized the Bible. Without the Catholic Church you would not have a New Testament.
I think you may be trying to hide the fact that you cannot find any scripture, just ONE at a time, that contradicts our Faith with a cloud of obfuscating scripture references that no one is going to look up.
1 Timothy 3: 1-2 (a Bishop MUST BE the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE [Catholic Bishops simply do not qualify to be Bishops Biblically.]); and 1 Timothy 4: 1-3 (THE SPIRIT expressly warns of some who would depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, FORBIDDING TO MARRY [like the Catholic Church does concerning priests and Bishops], and COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS [like the Catholic Church does regarding "Good Friday"] which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth (plainly the Spirit of God was warning us of the Catholic Church).
HIsrory By Dates
The Roman Catholic Church wasnt started till around 300AD(Constantine’s Conversion 337 AD)
It was still known as the Church of Rome
There were in fact 22 churches during Bible times Romans 16:16 is use in the pluar
Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kisse. The Churches of Christ salute you.
KJ(1611)
CHURCHES Literary evidence (Acts 1:13–14; 2:46) shows that the earliest congregational meetings of the disciples of Jesus, for prayer, the eucharist and the agape (a love-feast held in connection with the Lord’s supper) took place in private houses.
Negev, Avraham: The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land. 3rd ed. New York : Prentice Hall Press, 1996, c1990
The constitution of the Mother Church of Jerusalem after 42 A.D. seems to have followed strictly the Jewish model, James and the elders or presbyters corresponding to the High Priest and the Sanhedrin.
History is sure of all of them except for the Church of Rome
Paul’s vist Could Have been in 55-57ad but most Likey a Little earlery
There was a Chirstian fellowship already there.
The Word church is a Greek “ekklesia” word common meaning , That it was a place of worship to the Pegan gods. The pegans were converted to Chirst, the name didnt need to change because it was a common word. They would carry “euangelion” greek word for “Evangelical” which means: “gospel” or “good news.
St. Peter (Greek: Πέτρος, Pétros “Rock”) The rock that Jesus was reffering too was Peter. His Chruch The Chruch of Jesus Chirst would be established on the Rock , Peter.
Not a acuall rock on hill in Rome.
The confusion of are argument is the name catholic , Greek katholikos universal its not even a latin word.
Peter mostliky Didnt even speak Latin(Latin spoken mostly in Rome or Italy. Paul might have spoke latin Peter lived in Palistian all his life till , he went to Rome. But Im srue he spoke greek given the fact that Greek influces had been established for around 400 years and became the trade langauge.
Yes St.Peter was the first Papa of the chruch of Rome , but the Church was very differnt in those day than it is today. Rome did not control or rule over the other churches intel Constine. I think thats what the first Nicene Council was about. Now that Chruch was intergrated with the Empire it rule not just Militarly or eco-politcaly. Now the Empire could rule human hearts. Not Jesus but the Roman EMpire. This were my protest in the History begains.
My protest isnt towards the Holy catholic church (Church found in the Bible), Its towards , the Roman Catholic Church. I think the early Fathers were right on , they were still Human though, ST. Amborse, ST. Jerome, St. Agustine, St. Benard,ST. Thomas Aquinas and many others these are just a few
Timeline
33. Descent of the Holy Ghost On the Day of Pentecost
62. Martyrdom of St. James the Less
64. Persecution by Nero begins
68. Martyrdom of St. Peter and St. Paul
70. Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus
95. Persecution by Domitian
100. Death of St. John
116. Martyrdum of Ignatius
166. Martyrdoms of Justin and Polycarp
168. Montanus publishes his heresy
177. Persecution at Lyons and Vienne
190. Tertullian flourishes
202. Persecution by Severus begins
-. Martyrdom of Origen’s father
206. Martyrdom of Perpetua and her companions
248. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage
249. Persecution by Decius
251. Paul, the first hermit
-. Troubles at Carthage; Novatian schism
253. Plague at Carthage
254. Death of Origen
-. Disagreement between Cyprian and Stephen of Rome
257. Persecution by Valerian
258. Martyrdom of Cyprian
260. Conversion of the Goths begins
261. Valerian prisoner-Gallienus tolerates Christians
270. Manes publishes his heresy
298. Diocletian requires idolatry from soldiers, &c.,
303. The last general persecution begins
311. Separation of the Donatists from the Church
313. End of the persecution
314. Council of Arles about the Donatists
319. Arius begins to publish his heresy
324. Constantine defeats Licinius,
declares self Christian
325. The First General Council held at Nicaea
-Arius condemned
-The Nicene Creed made
326. Athanaslus, bishop of Alexandria
335. Council of Tyre
-. Athanasius banished to Treves
336. Death of Arius
337. Death of Constantine
338. Athanasius restored to his see
341. Second banishment of Athanasius
343. Persecution in Persia
347. Revolt, defeat, and banishment of the Donatists
348. Ulfilas, bishop of the Goths
349. Second return of St. Athanasius
356. Third exile of Athanasius
-. Death of Antony the hermit
361. Julian emperor-Paganism restored
362. The Donatists recalled
-. Athanasius restored, but again banished
-. Attempt to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem
363. Death of Julian
370. Basil, bishop of Caesarea, in Cappadocia
372. Gregory of Nazianzum consecrated bishop of Sasima
373. Death of Athanasius
374. Ambrose, bishop of Milan
378. Gregory of Nazianzum goes to Constantinople
379. Theodosius, emperor
380. Gregory, bishop of Constantinople-Death of Basil
381. Second General Council held at Constantinople
-Gregory withdraws from his see
385. Execution of Priscillian
387. Baptism of Augustine
-. Sedition at Antioch
390. Massacre at Thessalonica, repentance of Theodosius
391. Destruction of the Temple Of Serapis
395. Death of Theodosius
-. Augustine, bishop of Hippo
397. Death of Ambrose
-. Chrysostom, bishop of Constantinople
400. Pelagius teaches his heresy at Rome
403. Death of Telemachus at Rome
-. Council of the Oak-Chrysostom banished, recalled
404. Chrysostom banished to Cucusus
407. Death of Chrysostom
409. The Romans withdraw from Britain
410. Rome taken by Alaric
-. Pelagius and Celestius in Africa
411. Conference with the Donatists at Carthage
412. Ninian bishop of Whithorn
415. Councils in the Holy Land as to Pelagius
429. Pelagianism put down in Britain by German & Lupus
430. Death of Augustine
431. Third General Council held at Ephesus
-Condemnation of Nestorius
432. Death of Ninian-Patrick goes into Ireland
449. “Robber Council” meets at Ephesus
-. Landing of the Saxons in England
451. Fourth General Council held at Chalcedon
- Condemnation of Eutyches
-. Attila in France-Deliverance of Orleans
452. Attila in Italy
455. Rome plundered by Genseric
476. End of the Western Empire
484-519. Schism between Rome and Constantinople
493. Death of Patrick
496. Conversion of Clovis
527. Justinian, emperor
529. The heathen schools of Athens shut up
-. Benedict draws up his Rule for monks
541. Jacob leader of the Monophysites
553. Fifth General Council held at Constantinople
565. Columba settles at Iona
-. Death of Justinian
589. Third Council of Toledo-
The Spanish Church renounces Arianism
-. Columban goes into France
590. Gregory the Great, bishop of Rome
596. Mission of Augustine to England
597. Landing of Augustine in Kent
-Conversion of Ethelbert
604. Deaths of Gregory and Augustine
PART II
589-615. Missionary labours of St Columban
612. Mahomet begins to publish his religion
627. Jerusalem taken by the Mussulmans
632. Death of Mahomet.
635. Settlement of Scottish missionaries in Holy Island 172
664. Council of Whitby
724. Beginning of controversy as to images
-. Victory of Charles Martel over the Saracens
734. Death of the Venerable Bede
715-755. Missionary Labours of St Boniface
752. Pipin becomes king of the Franks
787. Second Council of Nicaea
794. Council of Frankfort
800. Charles the Great crowned as emperor
-. Forgery of Constantine’s donation (approx.)
814. Death of Charles the Great
826-865. Missionary labours of Anskar
846. Forgery of the False Decretals (approx.)
860-870. Conversion of Bulgarians,
Moravians, Bohemians, &c
912. Foundation of the Order of Cluny
962. Otho I, emperor
988. Conversion of Basil, great prince of Russia
999. Sylvester II, pope
994-1030. Conversion of Norwegians.
1046. Council of Sutri
1048. Pope Leo IX.- Beginning of Hildebrand’s
influence over the papacy
1073. Hildebrand elected pope (Gregory VII )
1074. Foundation of the Carthusian Order
1085. Death of Gregeory VII
1098. Foundation of the Cistercian Order
1099. Jerusalem taken in the First Crusade
1113. Order of St John (or Hospitallers) founded
1116. Order of the Temple founded
1123. Agreement between pope and emperor at Worms
1147-1149. The Second Crusade
1153. Death of St. Bernard
1154. Nicolas Breakspeare, an Englishman,
chosen pope (Adrian IV)
1170. Murder of Archbishop Thomas Becket
1189. The Third Crusade
1198. Innocent III elected pope
1203. Constantinople taken by Crusaders
1208. England put under an interdict
1208-1229. War against the Albigenses
1215. Fourth Council of the Lateran-Innocent sanctions
the Dominican and Franciscan Orders
of Mendicant Friars
1240. First Crusade of St. Lewis
1270. Second Crusade and death of St. Lewis
1274. Second Council of Lyons
1294. Election of Pope Celestine V
–. Election of Pope Boniface VIII
1300. Boniface celebrates the first jubilee
1303. Death of Boniface
1310. The popes settle at Avignon
1312. Council of Vienne-The Templars dissolved
1377. Gregory XI moves the papacy from Avignon to Rome
1378. Beginning of the Great Schism of the West
1384. Death of John Wyclif
1414-1418. Council of Constance
1415. Pope John XXIII deposed
–. John Huss burnt by order of the Council
1417. Election of Pope Martin V and end of the Schism
1418. Religious war of Bohemia breaks out
1431. Council of Basel opened
1438. Council of Ferrara and Florence
1453. Constantinople taken by the Turks
1455. Invention of Printing
1464. Pope Pius II vainly attempts a crusade
1498. Death of Savonarola
1503. Death of Pope Alexander VI
1517. Appearance of Martin Luther as a reformer
1517- The invention of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura
God took the power away from the Roman Empire and gave it to the people.
By 1517 The Good News was naught being Taught in
the Roman Church. Ritaul mostly
Paying of pentaince instead of repentance.
1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, “Repent” (Mt 4:17), he willed
the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
2. This Word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance,
that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy. (Luther) Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Luther use this verse
Luther didnt want to start a new church he wanted to have debate to bring reform in the Church.
In other words You cant have a relationship to Jesus through ritual. Knowing what God commands can only come from the practice and study of His Word.
This is big Here
26. The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory,
not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of
intercession for them.
Jesus is are only intercession, No man can give remission or intercession for them.
“It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair.”
-G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936)
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sister!
Ally
God Bless you today and always!
Please take a closer look at the Roman Catholic Church. In the Upper Room Jesus promised His Apostles the Holy Spirit and that He would guide them into all truth. He was speaking about a miraculous measure of the Spirit which He did not promise to anyone else. In John 17 Jesus prayed for His Apostles, and in verse 17 He prayed, “Sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth.” Then in verse 20 He prayed, “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through THEIR word;” Not through some other persons word. If they told someone directly something from the Spirit, that person was to accept that as the Word of God. If they wrote it to them, they were to accept it as God’s Word, just the same. They have not spoken to any of us directly, therefore, God left us their epistles that we might know and believe through the words of those whom He promised the Spirits guidance into all truth, that we may be one with those whom He prayed for in John 17: 20. Remember also that the Roman Catholic Church both contradicts 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 and fulfills the Spirits warning in 1 Tim. 4: 1-3.
I thank God for your testimony and how it has led me, together with a visit to Walsingham back to the true Church and out of pentecostalism.
Wow! Thanks for letting us know. I would love to hear your story.
My Story. Hmm that would take a website and a lot of time which I don’t seem able to find – but I don’t discount it. It’s ben a long and grace filled journey and while, I acknowledge that I have learnt a lot from Protestant Churches, the joy of praise, the importance of regular Bible Study and exegesis [I use the New Jerome Commentary] the centrality of prayer there has always been something in Protestantism that has sounded a discordant note and has truly been the work of men – often men of hubris. Either the Holy Spirit’s actions have been tied to speaking in tongues to prove that one has received it – in direct contradiction and understanding of Acts and Corinthians, or Baptism as adults by immersion only [a seductive teaching, well intentioned] has been necessary for church membership or creationism [young earth, literal reading of Genesis] has been essential to Church membership and ALL THESE and many other errors the result of reading without guidance of The Church and Tradition. The Roman Catholic Church alone stands alone as a beacon to God’s saving power through Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for the little snippet. You are right their intentions are good and they have no idea what they are missing. I didn’t. but I am so happy to have been recieved by the Church.
‘I didn’t. but I am so happy to have been recieved by the Church.’
Amen to that. It’s quite worrying to think how both of us have a background that makes it possible to know nothing of the first 400 years of Christianity isn’t it? But so much time and emphasis is put on the centrality of sola scriptura, as well as the particular creeds and dogmas of the different types of protestantism that it’s possible to have no time to question or research. Your daughter’s attendance at a Catholic university was indeed providential.
Yes, and the one time, many years before my conversion, I did a little research about exactly how the Bible was canonized. Something scared me about it and I stopped and ignored it and trusted what I had been told in spite of what I found. I don’t remember really what it was that scared me but I bet it had something to do with the fact that the Catholic Church canonized the Bible. I just turned away and put my blinders back on. Until my daughter went off to a Catholic University.
Its by His Grace and nothing else.the Church is not above or even has equal athority than His master. The Roman Catholic Church. Has pit It self higher than The master ‘Jesus. Jesus even said the Athority has been given to me by My Father.
If you can Show me in Scriptrue were the Church , His Fleshy Body. 1 corith 12: 12-26 , is more Important than the Head , than show it. Without the Head Jesus , the Body would be totlly dead. The Roman Cathlic runs around with its Head cut off thats why , it has very liltte power any more.
Roboman: Its by His Grace and nothing else.
Roboman: If you can Show me in Scriptrue were the Church , His Fleshy Body. 1 corith 12: 12-26 , is more Important than the Head , than show it.
Roboman: Without the Head Jesus , the Body would be totlly dead.
Roboman: The Roman Cathlic runs around with its Head cut off thats why , it has very liltte power any more.
The Watchtower Society takes the same passages of scripture out of context in the same way that you do in order to claim that they somehow have authority from God. They are not true any more or less than the Roman Catholic Church is. These passages cannot be shown to be talking about the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the Bible makes it clear who is being spoken to, Jesus Apostles, the twelve. So the Roman Catholic Church uses the same tactics for usurping authority never ascribed to them that all false religions use. This should send up a red flag.
But as I said, you are not alone. Indeed all of Protestantism is incorrect, homever, please know that the Roman Catholic Church is very, very wrong. In the Upper Room Jesus promised His Apostles the Holy Spirit and that He would guide them into all truth, not the Apostles successors. He was speaking about a miraculous measure of the Spirit which He did not promise to anyone else. In John 17 Jesus prayed for His Apostles, and in verse 17 He prayed, “Sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth.” It is His Word that sanctifies. Then in verse 20 He prayed, “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through THEIR word;” Not through some other persons word. If they told someone directly, something from the Spirit, that person was to accept that as the Word of God. If they wrote it to them, they were to accept it as God’s Word, just the same. They have not spoken to any of us directly, therefore, God left us their epistles that we might know and believe through the words of those whom He promised the Spirits guidance into all truth, that we may be one with those whom He prayed for in John 17: 20. Remember also that the Roman Catholic Church both contradicts 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 and fulfills the Spirits warning in 1 Tim. 4: 1-3
I do not want you to miss however that Jesus church is alive and well today. It is not a denomination. It is not Protestantism, or Roman Catholicism, or Orthodox Catholicism, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Seventh Day Adventists, or Mormons, or any of those. If you would like to know more about Christ’s church, visit the website of His Tarentum congregation listed above.
Roboman: By His grace and by the faith that flows from His grace. I have no argument with that. You are obviously following your own agenda – without a spellcheck.
BFHU: We don’t believe that the Church is more important than Christ. But where do you find the scriptural authority to demand that all things must be found in Scripture?
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
John 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 4:41 Many more believed because of His word;
Luk 10:39 She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord’s feet, listening to His word.
Rom 9:28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.” (we know His jugdements from His Word)
Joel 2:11 The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?
Lam 2:17 The LORD has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His word Which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing, And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries.
Jer 23:18 “But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened?
Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at His word: “Your brothers who hate you, who exclude you for My name’s sake, Have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy.’ But they will be put to shame.
Psa 148:8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;
****Psa 105:19 Until the time that his word came to pass, The word of the LORD tested him. **** ( The word test Us.)
2Sa 23:2 “The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
(I Hebrew cultrue this was past down through a Oral tradition.) (Written Down much Later during the Babylonian exile 559-404BC est. of Dates
There are acually over 34 Verse were God will Establish His Word , Exacute His Word, His Word was Fullfilled in Jesus. John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Joh 5:36 “But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
Joh 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Joh 5:38 “And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;
Joh 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
This Percept is From Jesus Himself not from Men.
This is what is taught in reformed circles.
NOT that the Magisterial(Interpatation handed down in the form of tradition) Has Equal Authority. Your own catechism teaches that the earthly Authority (Roman Catholic Church)as Jesus Equal they are “Hand in Hand one can not stand with out the other.” That’s a direct Quote.” Other words Jesus ( The only Begotten of the Father) Cant stand without the Roman Cattholic Church?
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that they are equal to Jesus.
Reform Protestantism Teaches Humenertics is the point of interpatation,Mat 13:52 And He said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old.”
Act 20:27 “For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. (Paul declares this by teaching of the Old Testiment)
2Pe 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
2Pe 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
2Pe 1:5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
2Pe 1:7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Roboman: This Percept is From Jesus Himself not from Men.
BFHU:The Catholic Church heartily agrees with every verse you have quoted. But, you still have not shown me a scriptural verse or passage that clearly says that Scripture is the only source of the truths and doctrines of our Faith.
Roboman: This is what is taught in reformed circles.
BFHU: Yes this is what is taught in reformed circles. But it is NOT to be found taught in the Bible anywhere.
Roboman: NOT that the Magisterial(Interpatation handed down in the form of tradition) Has Equal Authority.
BFHU: Of course the aurthority of the Magisterium is not taught in Reformed circles. Then they would abdicate their authority and power.
Roboman:Your own catechism teaches that the earthly Authority (Roman Catholic Church)as Jesus Equal they are “Hand in Hand one can not stand with out the other.” That’s a direct Quote.”
BFHU: Where is this quote? I would need to see it in context.
Roboman: Other words Jesus ( The only Begotten of the Father) Cant stand without the Roman Cattholic Church? The Roman Catholic Church teaches that they are equal to Jesus.
BFHU: Jesus founded the Catholic Church. But we do not believe that the Church is equal to Jesus. That is ridiculous. Someone has taught you a boatload of lies about the Catholic Church.
Roboman: Reform Protestantism Teaches Humenertics is the point of interpatation,Mat 13:52
BFHU: Hermenutics is a discipline of interpretation but it is not infallible. Do you think you can infallibly interpret scripture? Can your pastor? Can Calvin?
Ecc 12:9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
Ecc 12:10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
Ecc 12:11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
Ecc 12:12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
Ecc 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
The Words were written down , and came from one Shepherd. That Shepard none other the God Himself
Father , Son and Holy Spirt.
Eternal Security?
Salvation is a deposit and it is sealed
In others words Salvation is not complete from the point of being reborn, We have a new relationship with God through Jesus and we know were stand with God. We know of are sin and We belive He cleans us and the Hope is in His Resurrection.
Its by Faith through Grace that I Believe
Faith and Grace acually come from Him , but thats anther debate.
Once saved always saved?
Who teches that?
Not Reformers
We now being reborn into Him we belong to Him , even if one day you diceded to be a Athist, You still belong to Him. The Bible teches about Aposty or those that have fallen away.
Sounds Like Hyper-Calvism , Wich isnt what Calvin Taught, they were things Added by others,
The Catholic Church does not place itself higher than Christ. From your many, many comments you obviously have more time, and a closed mind, than I have. I wish you peace and illumination. For me this conversation is closed.
And by the way My Pastor has more qualifications to teach the Word of God than Most Catholics Bishops.
Not Just his education but his famliy life, his charactor.
his charactor, not his collar!
You have got to be kidding. Our priests and bishops are highly educated. Tell me exactly what your pastors qualifications are and why they supercede the eduction and holiness of the lives of our bishops. Yes we have some bishops who have made serious mistakes but so have many Protestant pastors. So let’s stick to the educational deficiencies you are so convinced our bishops have.
Ecc 12:9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
Ecc 12:10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
Ecc 12:11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
Ecc 12:12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
Ecc 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
The Words were Written Down, The Words Through many preachers , came from ONE Shepherd.
Jesus Chirst.
Are Lord ,
Amen
AMEN
I know how deficient the average free reformed pastor’s education is, something that Roboman doesn’t seem able, or is unwilling to address. ‘Education’ can be as little as having a good fundamentalist background in ‘Bible Study’ and preaching that leads a church to elect him as minister or as much as two to three years at a Bible Study college which is usually connected to the church [The Assembly Of God is a case in point] without any external degres or qualifications.
Not exactly on a par with a Roman Catholic seminary.
Thats simply Not trure
Most Presbyterin pators Have a PHD but a masters somtimes qualifies them Base on the ministrie work they have done in there Life and have work in ministires before they are even ordained.
Examples
Tim Keller ,Multiple PHDs
Metzer ,Multi PHDs (Scholor who help translate the Greek in the NRSV , Although the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops approves only the New American Bible for liturgical use, the NRSV is quoted in the English-language edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which also quotes from the RSV).
Many more
Scholors wich you read and probly dont Know they were Persbyterian.
My Current Pastor 2 PHDs one from Yale and Fuller Seminary.
Fuller Seminary is Just the standard Presbyterian seminary.
Most Presbyterian pastor have 2 PHDs do to the Fact one from seminary and one from a Major Universtity.
We have 2 retierd pastors , One went to Berklel wich is Catholic and the Other a Catholic Seminary he got married and became a Presbyterian.
ALFRED EDERSHEIM, M.A.OXON., D.D., PH.D
CS Lewis Not a Reformer but a Protestant
Church of Ireland (Church of England)
Albert Schweitzer(Luthern)
Abraham Lincoln as President, worships at New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington D.C.
Were Just buch of dumb uneducated folks we are
So I think your statment is to cause division one more time
Your statement is false .
In the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), ordination exams are given to seminary seniors to ensure that a candidate for ministry is adequately prepared. The four exams include: Theology, Worship and Sacraments, Polity, and Biblical Exegesis (undertaken in either Biblical Greek or Hebrew.)
The first three, respectively, are taken in a proctored setting over the course of two days. The last is given to students at the conclusion of the other three, and is taken home for completion. In addition, all candidates for ministry must pass a fifth ordination exam typically given the first year of seminary called the Bible Content Exam.
Exams are graded by at least two readers on a scale of 1 to 5. 3 is a passing score, and 5 is outstanding. If one reader passes a student, and a second fails that student, a third reader is then called in to make a final judgment.
Special considerations are made for students whose first language is not English, and the exam is regularly administered in Spanish and Korean.
It is common for students to have to take their exams several times before passing. Up to 28% of ordained ministers will have repeated at least one exam. Some, though not all, presbyteries impose a limit on the number of times their candidates may attempt an exam. Others allow for alternative formats. Still, a fair number of students do not pass all of their exams after several tries. It is not unheard of for a candidate to be dismissed from the ordination process after multiple attempts to pass the tests have failed.
In addition, Presbyterian seminarians are required to pass an examination covering the content of the Bible. Practice exams are available here[1]
Austin Theological Seminary
Columbia Theological Seminary **
Dubuque Theological Seminary
Johnson C. Smith Theological Seminary
Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary
McCormick Theological Seminary
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Princeton Theological Seminary **
San Francisco Theological Seminary
Union Theological Seminary
Most PCUSA ministers receive their training at one of these ten schools. Other schools which have educated substantial numbers of PCUSA minsters include Harvard Divinity School, Yale Divinity School, Union Theological Seminary in New York, Vanderbilt Divinity School, Erskine Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Presbyteries differ greatly in their acceptance of candidates from these non-affiliated schools. Regardless of where a candidate for ministry receives their degree, however, they are required to successfully complete the Inquirer and Candidate processes of the church, and to pass stringent ordination exams in order to be ordained.
Most PCUSA ministers receive their training at one of these ten schools. Other schools which have educated substantial numbers of PCUSA minsters include Harvard Divinity School, Yale Divinity School, Union Theological Seminary in New York, Vanderbilt Divinity School, Erskine Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Presbyteries differ greatly in their acceptance of candidates from these non-affiliated schools. Regardless of where a candidate for ministry receives their degree, however, they are required to successfully complete the Inquirer and Candidate processes of the church, and to pass stringent ordination exams in order to be ordained.
Most PCUSA ministers receive their training at one of these ten schools. Other schools which have educated substantial numbers of PCUSA minsters include Harvard Divinity School, Yale Divinity School, Union Theological Seminary in New York, Vanderbilt Divinity School, Erskine Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Presbyteries differ greatly in their acceptance of candidates from these non-affiliated schools
SO No educacation required Huh!!
All of these schools are Main line Universtiys
I dont see a Bobo Jones Jr. Bible Collage on here.
Sorry your deprived mind has let you down once agin
Most cases It takes Over 15+ Years to Become a Lead Pastor in a Presbyterian Chruch.
Their Life before Ordation is Devoted to Academics and their ministry Calling , Case in Point The pastor s wife here who is also ordained After Complting Semininary at Columbia and Fuller. Was a minister in a womens prison in Texas for 6 years.
Not srue were your facts are comming from.
Yes i will gree that the lil penticoscal church on cornor is a unathoritative view of Jesus,
Catholic priest and Nuns going under excetional training will agree.
You got to remember that Luther, Calvin ,Knox and Tyndale were Catholoic Priest and Theoelogians , These Guys are the Oringal reformers, Reform is a theological stand point not a denonomation. Calvin was in Chruch Goverment and Knox was too, Lurther and TYndale were theoalogians , The 3 the broke from the Roman Catholic Chruch are the Only 3 I reconize. Luther (Lurtherism), Calvin (Reform in Chruch goverment), Knox (In establishing the Acuall a First reformed Church ,Presbyterian (Church of Scotland)
Tyndale (as Martyer for his work in translating to a English Bible Tyndales Bible is almost the same as the AV(KJ) Cloverdales Bible used only the Latin to tranlate compioling over 1500 grammer and defination erros.
,They set the Standard of are Tradition wich they got from Catholic Chruch. So Academics is must, also a life of being a servant to God is a must.
Roboman,
You are correct many Protestant pastors with seminary training do go on to get doctorates. But I don’t know if I believe that “most Presbyterian pastors have their PHd”.
But you made the statement:
And by the way My Pastor has more qualifications to teach the Word of God than Most Catholics Bishops
Please prove to us by showing that you even know how many years it takes to become a priest and what sort of education most bishops have.
Please give us proof of your statement that most PCUSA pastors have their doctorate by citing your source online. thanks.
I never said a PHD was requiered , I said a Master is required. I said most most have PHDs because Most teach at the upper Universtty lvl.
You are just trying to twist words.
I just say this check it out your self dont belive me.
Roboman; I did not say that you said a PHd was required. I certainly did not twist your words. I quoted you from your post of (3/26 at 11:44 am) you said:
“most Presbyterian pastors have their PHd”.
I seriously doubt that most Presbyterian pastors teach the University level. I think most are pastors of Churches.
You asserted:
“And by the way My Pastor has more qualifications to teach the Word of God than Most Catholics Bishops.”
(That is a direct quote from your comment on 3/27 at 12:58PM)
Which I find ridiculous b/c I don’t think you know what education a Catholic Priest must get before ordination.
http://www.pcusa.org/oga/publications/boo07-09.pdf
REV ALFRED EDERSHEIM, M.A.OXON., D.D., PH.D.
This guy Back in he 1800s taught Catholic Priest at Oxford.
Sometime Grinfield Lecturer on the Septuagint in the University of Oxford.
Edersheim, Alfred: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah.
As a presbyterian don’t you believe in predestination?
If true, you might be waisting your time with us anyway!?
Right?
Ally
Predestination
Not sure were this falls in the conversation.
Predestination is those who are predestined to come to the Cross, Jesus has already chosen those.
Most non Reformers, (Presbyterian is form of Church government.) (Reform is a Theological view point not a denomanation).
Think that Calvin meant that all things are predestinate this isn’t true.
When we are redeemed in Jesus the original sin of are first parents is gone we have Free will again for we are no longer a slave to sin. Predestination is about those that will come to the Cross. Jesus chooses us not other way around. If God has plain for us Jer. 29:11
We have a choice that the path with Jesus or the path that leads really know were.(Sin) each Path is predestined. God is the author and finisher of are faith.
In otherwords after the state of redemtion with Jesus you get to choose to die to sin every day and walk with with Jesus , to pick up your Cross and follow Him. Or worship dumb idols agin. Rituals , money, sex, Religion etc………….
What ever path you choose there’s a predestined out come.
Your next question will be does that mean I can loose my salvation?
No !
Because your Salvation is a Depost and sealed.
Meaning You always belong to Jesus , if you choose the path of sin agin , You still belong to Him. Jesus holds the keys to Heven and Hades. Your Jugdment will be one based on the life you lived on earth.
Not a cleasing in prugatory.
You will stand before Him and Give Him a Account , and The Word that was given to you by Him (2000 years ago) will Judge you. For He is the Word.
Predestination … because I have a friend who is presb. and said to preach to any of us was a lost cause. So, I am wondering why you are preaching (of course, I am a protestant she is talking to)
My apologies to your conversation. It doesn’t have anything to do with what you were previously talking about. I just am not understanding why you would go to a Catholic Blog and talk about how qualified Presb. pastors are and
how under qualified Catholic leaders are.
Roboman:
“In otherwords after the state of redemtion with Jesus you get to choose to die to sin every day and walk with with Jesus , to pick up your Cross and follow Him. Or worship dumb idols agin. Rituals , money, sex, Religion etc……”
???????What
Ally
Happy;
Ally
???????What
T
hen explain
That’s not true, Ally Must be PCA for they have very little ecumenical work.
I meant that the Character of Priest is what was under qualified.
Most Priest will just tey to get you out of there hair they will just send you to Catichism , Not to scriptrue for answer on you Life.
I know this for fact that A lot of Preist will go to a Prodestest pastor because they are more quailfied to handle suckh things like as child abuse , rape, loss of a loved one. Becaue most Protestest pastors hold multiple dgrees. Not Just in Theology or Divinity.
Acuallty right now at Seattle Univeristy wich is Cathoilc , Uses Protestests to teach pastoral Counciling.!
Happy;
Ally
???????What
T
hen explain
OK>>>>> What does this mean?
You are saying that I/we worship idols, rituals, money, sex?
The next two posts I don’t even understand.
“The Character of a Priest” is under qualified?
My Mother is a Protestant Pastor along with many of my friends. None of them have near the education it takes for a Priest.
Predesination
See Council of Dort 1619
Your Calling to the Cross is predestaned and your Calling in your Gift is Predested.
Pg. 34, 66 Chirstain Doctrine, Shirley Guthrie Jr.
Calvin Intitutes Book3 Chapters 21-24
God as degree them to a state of misry because they Willfully Disobey.
Read that statement very carefully.
Submitted on 2009/03/30 at 9:57am
Happy
I cant find your post.
Its your Mother a Presbyterian or Lurthern Pastor?
Submitted on 2009/03/30 at 10:13am
Pope Gregory both the roles of the Emperor and that of the Pope
Pope Leo 3rd proclaimed the ampquot holy Roman realm,
I havnt rejected Nothing
Territories of central Italy over which the pope had sovereignty from 756 to 1870. The extent of the territory and the degree of papal control varied over the centuries. As early as the 4th century, the popes had acquired considerable property around Rome (called the Patrimony of St. Peter). From the 5th century, with the breakdown of Roman imperial authority in the West, the popes’ influence in central Italy increased as the people of the area relied on them for protection against the barbarian invasions. When the Lombards threatened to take over the whole peninsula in the 750s, Pope Stephen II (or III) appealed for aid to the Frankish ruler Pippin III (the Short). On intervening, Pippin “restored” the lands of central Italy to the Roman see, ignoring the claim of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire to sovereignty there. This Donation of Pippin (754) provided the basis for the papal claim to temporal power. More land was gained when the papacy acquired the duchy of Benevento in 1077, and Popes Innocent III and Julius II further expanded the papal domain. The rise of communes and rule by local families weakened papal authority in the towns, and by the 16th century the papal territory was one of a number of petty Italian states. They were an obstacle to Italian unity until 1870, when Rome was taken by Italian forces and became the capital of Italy. In 1929 the Lateran Treaty settled the pope’s relation to the Italian state and set up an independent city-state (see Vatican City).
For more information on Papal States, visit Britannica.com.
Its common Info
Happy
I cant find your post.
Its your Mother a Presbyterian or Lurthern Pastor?
Dear Pam,
God has a plan for all of us and it was obviously a part of His plan to have me stumble upon your blog and poignant conversion story. As a cradle Catholic I have taken my faith for granted for many years but I always secretly wished for the transformative experience of conversion that many born agains talk about. Intellectually Ive always been Catholic but spiritually not so much. I have been given a second chance in Christ through the readings of reverts and converts to Catholicism like yourself and I weep with joy in reading your story and understanding why God led me to it. It is fitting this occurs in our holiest of seasons and I look forward to tonights Vigil and Easter Sunday with a rediscovered sense of purpose and rededication to my faith.
Thank you for sharing your story and playing your part in God’s plan for me
Thank you. I too am looking forward to this Holy week’s celebrations.
Pam, I cannot express the sense of peace and excitement I feel after having read your conversion story and several of your articles. Your site is exactly what I have been praying for. I will share it with everyone! Thank you for your perseverance and steadfast longing to share the truth to all who have ears. You are a blessing to our Catholic community.
What i don’t understand is how you guys can ignore how evil the church has been in the past. They have killed millions of people just for having the bible. Were they just ignoring Christ then for a little while?
Some of the popes even wore a crown that said ‘ I take the place of almighty god’. If Catholic churches are following the bible so rightly how come the head of the church is called the father? that is a sin correct? Calling your self god? Some popes even sold parchments that remitted all sin but all you had to do was pay for it. The pope controls what happens on earth, in heaven and in hell… what? Also mary a saint?.. What happened to Jesus saying theres not one man on earth who is good.. not even one… Jesus also said that mary had no spirtual ‘plus’ over anyone else. Why do you people pray to her now? isnt that idoltry praying to a person a object anything other than god him self? sigh
I apologize if I may come off as ignorant… I just am trying to learn about the history of every religion and so far I am heavily non denomination christian… All I do every day is pray to god all day and follow the commandments as closely as i can learn them…
why is the person who wrote this story so interested about eating his flesh and blood?
Thanks for your apology. When I returned to the Catholic Faith after several years of absence, I decided to learn more about it from its friends. Most of the things I learned about the Faith from its enemies were either distortions or simply untrue. I have since discovered that most people ultimately believe what they want to believe. Very few seem to seek the truth above all else. People like Scott Hahn, Patti Bonds, and Pam Forrester all had strongly vested interest in not becoming Catholic. These people and millions like them are not ignorant of the Truth.
What i don’t understand is how you guys can ignore how evil the church has been in the past.
They have killed millions of people just for having the bible.
Were they just ignoring Christ then for a little while?
Some of the popes even wore a crown that said ‘ I take the place of almighty god’.
If Catholic churches are following the bible so rightly how come the head of the church is called the father?
that is a sin correct?
Calling your self god?
Some popes even sold parchments that remitted all sin but all you had to do was pay for it.
The pope controls what happens on earth, in heaven and in hell… what?
Also mary a saint?..
What happened to Jesus saying theres not one man on earth who is good.. not even one…
Jesus also said that mary had no spirtual ‘plus’ over anyone else.
Why do you people pray to her now? isnt that idoltry praying to a person a object anything other than god him self? sigh
I apologize if I may come off as ignorant… I just am trying to learn about the history of every religion and so far I am heavily non denomination christian… All I do every day is pray to god all day and follow the commandments as closely as i can learn them…
why is the person who wrote this story so interested about eating his flesh and blood?
Why do Roman Catholics ask the dead to intercede for them?
The only true Intercessory is Jesus because he lives forever. Or did the Second resurrection happen and we all missed it?
There is no were in the O.T.or the N.T. to ask for Intercessory from the dead. ONly a few short passeges in the Apocrypha wich is disputed by Jews and Protestants.
Tell me why such paganism?
Roboman,
When we die only our bodies die, our souls go to judgment. Unlike out bodies our souls are immortal. Our bodies will be resurrected at the Second Coming. So all the souls of the Saints and the saints are ALIVE in Eternity. This is not paganism. We are all a part of the Body of Christ and have communion through Him. Those in Eternity are enabled to hear our prayer requests through the power of God.
So far only Jesus and Mary are alive body and soul in Heaven. There is no Bible verse that contradicts Catholic theology. There is however, merely Protestant theology and interpretation but no scripture.
“Mary alive body and soul in Heaven.?”
Weres that in Scriptrue? I dont think thats even in the
Apocrypha.
Your intrpatation is very gnostic in its ideas. Is the Body bad? The Body doent count ? The Body cant become Holy?
Paul had a very differnt view.
Dear Roboman,
Mary alive body and soul in Heaven.?”
Weres that in Scriptrue? I dont think thats even in the
Apocrypha.
Your intrpatation is very gnostic in its ideas.
.
Is the Body bad?
Sola Scriptura is at lest based on a Biblical assumtion, were as Mary being Resurrected is pure Fantasy. Theres no no assumtion there at all.
Were there appearances of the 12 after they were marterd or Died I dont think so. Nodody has ever saw Paul or John or Stephen or Luke or Mark or Peter.
The only the Biblical percept you could start your point of assumption in Jesus Himself.
There are 2 others Jona, and Lazarus. They never asended to Heaven and then retruned they were just brought Back to life.
Enoch and Elijah Ascended to Heaven without dyeing.
You first have to have a Biblical assumtion as a starting point. Then you have to check all other material based in context of your assumtion. Then if you a moved from the assumtion then it becomes a percept , Then your precept is tested by a process of theology exegesis or hermeneutics. Then you can examine people’s experiences to see if it’s true. If people are having experiences then your percept can become a Doctrine over time. You just cant base it from experiences , you have to have radical dialog , not closed door session within the Vatican. Jesus Preached publicly and openly.
Roboman,
Sorry, but all of what you assert here is merely your own opinion. Therefore, I am not bound by your opinion.
Its not opinion. , Its base on a process of truth , And used in most Seminarys Even Catholic my friend. Its know as the “process of Interpretation of the Bible.”
“Catholic exegesis does not claim any particular scientific method as its own. It recognizes that one of the aspects of biblical texts is that they are the work of human authors, who employed both their own capacities for expression and the means which their age and social context put at their disposal. Consequently Catholic exegesis freely makes use of the scientific methods and approaches which allow a better grasp of the meaning of texts in their linguistic, literary, sociocultural, religious and historical contexts, while explaining them as well through studying their sources and attending to the personality of each author (cf. Divino Afflante Spiritu: Ench. Bibl. 557). Catholic exegesis actively contributes to the development of new methods and to the progress of research. ”
Patristic Exegesis
. Principal Guidelines
In devoting themselves to their task, Catholic exegetes have to pay due account to the historical character of biblical revelation. For the two testaments express in human words bearing the stamp of their time the historical revelation communicated by God in various ways concerning himself and his plan of salvation. Consequently, exegetes have to make use of the historical-critical method. They cannot, however, accord to it a sole validity. All methods pertaining to the interpretation of texts are entitled to make their contribution to the exegesis of the Bible.
In their work of interpretation Catholic exegetes must never forget that what they are interpreting is the word of God. Their common task is not finished when they have simply determined sources, defined forms or explained literary procedures. They arrive at the true goal of their work only when they have explained the meaning of the biblical text as God’s word for today. To this end they must take into consideration the various hermeneutical perspectives which help toward grasping the contemporary meaning of the biblical message and which make it responsive to the needs of those who read Scripture today.
Exegetes should also explain the Christological, canonical and ecclesial meanings of the biblical texts.
2. Exegesis and Systematic Theology
Without being the sole locus theologicus, sacred Scripture provides the privileged foundation of theological studies. In order to interpret Scripture with scholarly accuracy and precision, theologians need the work of exegetes. From their side, exegetes must orientate their research in such fashion that “the study of sacred Scripture” can be in reality “as it were the soul of theology” (Dei Verbum, 24). To achieve this, they ought pay particular attention to the religious content of the biblical writings.
Presented by the Pontifical Biblical Commission
to Pope John Paul II on April 23, 1993
Roboman,
That is all fine. What you don’t seem to realize is that Catholics and Protestants can both interpret the exact same Biblical passage differently. You have been making assertions and asserting that they are scriptural but you have not given us any scripture that backs up what you are saying. But, first, you must find scripture that proves to us that all religious Truth MUST be found in Scripture alone.
This is the same process Luther and other Reformers used and still use Protestant theologians make use of the Original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) more because the Original languages tells us more about the culture and ideology of that day. Protestants are usually more Critical and literal in their process. Not say Catholics theologians don’t use these sources.
If Protestants dont use the same process then it is Heresy. Most Backyard Protestants pastors don’t have a clue. You should always look at what Seminary the Protestant theologian went to.What denomination He or she as been ordained with. and other Degrees they hold. And are they really commited to Ecumitacal discovery.
“religious “Truth MUST be found in Scripture alone
To you its based on the Tradition of a Religious Empire of Men.
“Me its base on the Holy Sprit”
“Kingdom living vs, Empire”
To quote a Catholic Monk
O! and Jesus Himself
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
religious Truth are not found in the Bible;
Only how God has revealed himself to man through History. And the Princable of God through Jesus the ONly begotten is the way to Savation. Not religious Truth controled by men.
But the Revelation of God Himself.
Who died for us; to give Himself to us; so we would give are selfs to Him ;so we would give ourselfs to each other. This can only happen through Revelation , not through the traditions of men.
“But, first, you must find scripture that proves ”
Scriptrue is not going to give you “carnel proof which is what your really asking.
Its based on faith , that faith is based on the Revelation Of God through Scriptrue. Jesus is the Word , therefore its through Jesus that I Believein the book. That tells of His words and His LIfea nd His Death, and His Resurrection. The Book tells me about the Life giving Spirit.
Not confusing Fantasies to market a dieing Assembly.
Perhaps it would be more edifying for both sides if we spent some of our efforts on the glorious truths that we hold in common. Our God created the universe out of nothing, and this world is so tiny in comparison to the rest of creation that it takes a fair amount of faith to believe that humankind could be much more than an afterthought of the Divine mind. That is, until we are given the grace to believe that the same Creator made the incredibly humbling decision to be born as one of us, to actually become part of His creation. It’s hard not to have at least a little sympathy for the Jews, since their understanding of God was so other-worldly that even Moses could not be in the Holy of Holies with Him at the same time and live. The presence of God in the person of Jesus was eminently survivable, even for the humble virgin, though it’s hard for me to imagine she didn’t need some special graces for her part in the Incarnation.
God bless.
Roboman,
I see that you have still not presented us a passage in Scripture that teaches that all religious truth must come from Scripture alone. I hope that you are beginning to realize that Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men.
You didn’t read my post I see,
You are causing division and strife here, no real Dialog
YOU CANT PROVE THE SIGHTING OF MARY AT ALL, because you have no assumption from a Biblical stand point. So it’s not even possible.
Scripture said to test every thing by His word.
And taking that on Faith to what end, Did Mary Die for you can Mary take sins away Can she give the Holy Spirit. Can she give exo-cea? Can she transform life? She is one of many beloved church mothers and the earthly mother Jesus.
What’s the point here BFHU.
Why have faith in an assumption, why not the real deal Jesus
Your statements prove by your own words you don’t Know Jesus, if you did you would understand Faith even in its smallest Idea. God can be known, the giving of His Spirit through Jesus and the Revelation of God which is the Bible. Not anything else, not a set of rituals or rights created by Men, Not by sacrificing millions of bulls and sheep.
Roboman,
You didn’t read my post I see,
You are causing division and strife here, no real Dialog
YOU CANT PROVE THE SIGHTING OF MARY AT ALL, because you have no assumption from a Biblical stand point.
So it’s not even possible.
Scripture said to test every thing by His word.
And taking that on Faith to what end, Did Mary Die for you
can Mary take sins away
Can she give the Holy Spirit.
Can she give exo-cea?
Can she transform life?
She is one of many beloved church mothers and the earthly mother Jesus.
What’s the point here BFHU.
Why have faith in an assumption, why not the real deal Jesus
Your statements prove by your own words you don’t Know Jesus, if you did you would understand Faith even in its smallest Idea.
God can be known, the giving of His Spirit through Jesus and the Revelation of God which is the Bible. Not anything else, not a set of rituals or rights created by Men, Not by sacrificing millions of bulls and sheep.
I have given exhaustively a starting point there Biblical Assumsion (a stating point of reference), that it is Bible is the Authoritative word of God, and a Doctrinal point of Sola-Scripture.
Back to Seminary Basics
Doctrine -means teaching or to teach about a Subject that is generally accepted by other teachers.
First you start with an Assumption that’s Biblical.
“Jesus is Lord” Paul used this term 2 times.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Were did Paul get His Ideas? And why do I believe that this statement is true?
There is starting assumption. But this isn’t Doctrine yet now through a process of Logic and reason, the study of Paul’s character the History and culture, the study of Jesus, Jesus Character from New and Old Testament form the Stand point of Revelation (It also has to be reveled to the theologian by the Spirit). An Original Languages study, Exegesis, hermeneutics, there are other methods in theology to test your assumption, Liberation theology, to see if others have or can experience and believe this also.
Once observed and tested Now I have precept “ Jesus is Lord” If others start using the method of discovery and process I use to examines this and tech it to others, Then this is a Doctrine, others might even discover more than I did, the Spirit might have shown them something , that I didn’t see. Just as long they used the same process, the new information can be added if they used a different method and a different process. Then their examination isn’t base on a known Doctrine but they have started a new assumption it starts all over again.
Do you understand the process of interpitaton?
Sola-Scripture is just doctrinal interpitation
A way of Teaching.
What’s the problem, these same methods are Employed and taught in Catholic seminary.
But you! Will agree they prove nothing.
Well then the Roman Catholic Church can’t prove any thing, the reform model of Theology is almost the same.
I have given exhaustively a starting point there Biblical Assumsion (a stating point of reference), that it is Bible is the Authoritative word of God, and a Doctrinal point of Sola-Scripture.
Back to Seminary Basics
Doctrine -means teaching or to teach about a Subject that is generally accepted by other teachers.
First you start with an Assumption that’s Biblical.
“Jesus is Lord” Paul used this term 2 times.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Were did Paul get His Ideas?
Do you understand the process of interpitaton?
Sola-Scripture is just doctrinal interpitation
A way of Teaching.
BFHU: This is a Protestant way of devising doctrine. It is not Catholic
I just explained in an early post of the Catholic process it is almost the same with few exception, Reformers have developed more methods throughout years. And some of the newer methods are really bad. I will agree.
By the way unless you are an appointed an exegete form The Roman Catholic Church you as a common man are not allowed to interpret scripture. That’s based on your tradition and also a Cardinal Doctrine. You should go tell your priest you have been Interpret ting Scripture without the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther and Tyndale and Calvin were appointed exegetes or theologians By the Roman Catholic Church they had the Authority.
BFHU: You may think this but my understanding of Sola Scriptura, as a Protestant, was that it meant I was not bound in any way to believe anything regarding religious truth unless it was to be found in Scripture. When I found out that this doctrine was not contained in scripture, I realized it was a mere teaching of men. That realization helped draw me to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
Wich Demonination of Protestant? Not all use any process let olone the Holy Spirit with in them to able them at all.
What’s Funny is all the so called EX- Protestants on this Blog will not name the Protestant Church they use to Attainted, or the Denomination, or even the Movement that there Church sprung out of. MMM makes me wonder. Why?
You’re not telling the whole truth. Just seams like Roman Propaganda.
Something that Romans are very good at.
I grew up in Robert Schuller’s Church, then belonged to a Charismatic Church, then Southern Baptist, then Evangelical Free Church then Calvary Chapel.
I know for sure that the EVFree church and Calvary Chapel taught Sola Scriptura and the guidance of the Holy Spirit could be counted upon to interpret scripture. This was very confusing when good people I knew well and knew loved Our Lord would interpret scripture in a very different way than I did. I knew God was not a God of confusion and that the Holy Spirit would not tell one person one thing and another person something completely different. This left me on a path of arrogance. I knew my heart intimately. I KNEW I was truly seeking God and the Truth. Therefore, if this other person interpreted scripture differently it must mean, that despite appearances, that person must NOT be actually led by the Holy Spirit. I did not like this conclusion but I could not come up with a better one.
Calvary Chapel? Assemblys of God right
Just reading one of there Core doctrines of speaking in tounges , a first year Bible colloge student can see thats there is no basis for that its not true. Speaking in Unknown touges is not a requierment. To be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Robert Schuller’s , Not a bad Guy , More focus on practical theology probley to much Like Joel olsten.
I dont Like TV preachers there always hung up money.
EVFree church , A first year study in the Greek will tell you this is not a theology even though they claim it to be. thats in error. This is is a Post modern movment,
The name is it self will cuse confustion.
Charismatic Church? Mostly Formed out ofthe Holiness Movment. Im really not into Barking, or Floping on the floor.Charismatic -Charasmata means Gifts form the Greek there are many Gifts from the spirit . I dont barking is one of them.
Southern Baptist ,Methodest Legalistic, Unlimited Attonment, meaning God Gave all Power to the One Preacher or the One President. This is were Calvin was right with limited Attonement the full power of God is never just in one person, The full power of God is in Jesus, and we share it in the Church.(It is shared) Jesus is the Body and we are parts of it. The Finger cant be the head. the Toe cant be the whole body “Arminist” are demons.
BFHU:Therefore, if this other person interpreted scripture differently it must mean,
The Basis of Reformed Theology, is that we all of mankind is deprived, even with are best knowledge and experiences we are still not equal in ourselves or even as a group to know what God knows. We see the text differently based on all sorts of Factors, Rich people like unlimited atonement for they can feel superior over others, and Poor people see human life form a real point of view. Jesus was poor remember. So 2 people one Rich had all the best in life, schools will see the Gospel different than a person who was uneducated poor. Even Catholic priest Disagree on passages do to economic, social states, reputation in community. Calvin was right again “ Depravity of Man”
This reading scriptrue diffrently went on in Jesus’s Day big time bwteen the Parises and Sadusees.
“Arminist”
The real Herasy is here! teaching this. Most do not even know there being taught from this propective. Most Penicostal church teach this and never tell there asemblys were there doctinal staments come from. You know when you walk into a Presbyterian Church that your going to Here Luther and Calvin and Jerome and ST. Augusstine and ST. Banard, and ST. Franis and ST. Patrick and Treblium. we know are History and that History is taught the whole history of the Chruch. We still read the (Credo) the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. The Luther Caticasims isnt used in a Presbyterian It is in the Book of Conffesions, but you read it on your own.
And now theres Pluralst view , Taking pices of Calvin and mixing it with “Arminism” The is even worse. This is why Theology and Doctrine and History and the Orginal languases are so Important combined with the reading of Scriptrue.
Examples one the process of Sola Scripture that was used in history;
The fight to end slavery, William Wilberforce was Anglican. Sola Scripture was use to show that slavery didn’t give Glory to God, Slavery Abolition Act 1833
Martin Luther King Jr. Baptist
Abraham Lincoln Presbyterian
Declaration of Barmen Karl Barth, Swiss Reformed theologian; Pope Pius XII described him as the most important theologian since Thomas Aquinas.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer-Luthern
All these men practice Sola Scripture
Pam, thank you for this site. I am a ‘cradle Catholic’ who was not well educated in my religion and I find so much useful and affirming information in sites such as yours.
I was in (a very long) correspondence with an extreme Calvinist pastor ,some years ago, which could not seem to find any way of ending. He was determined to convert me. Finally I pointed out that the many pamphlets that he had composed and had sent to me contained numerous partial truths,distortions and downright untruths about the Church and that he was clearly sufficiently educated and knowledgable to know this to be the case. I pointed out that if someone claimed a loving personal relationship with Jesus who was Himself the Way, the TRUTH and the Life, then that person had an absolute obligation to total honesty and could not defend his position on the basis of dishonesty and yet proclaim himself converted to Christ and saved. The correspondence (to my relief) ceased immediately! I can only hope that he became more circumspect in his writing thereafter.
Steve,
Thanks for the encouragement. I wonder if the pastor actually realized he was not teaching the truth about the Catholic Church or whether he was honestly ignorant of the fact and your comments got him busy doing real research into what the Catholic Church actually teaches?
How many of you are Americas?
How many believe in the Constitution and the Bill of rights?
I am American.
Hi there Roboman,
I think the American promise of freedom of religion can be a great ally to the practicing Catholic. It is also possible that the “doctrine” of freedom of choice can produce alot of confusion. I know dedicated Christians who honestly don’t believe there is one true Faith. They have so many to choose from, how could only one of them be right? Yet the apostle Paul did say there is one Faith and one Church. Jesus said,”My sheep know My voice and they hear and follow Me”. For the first three quarters of the history of the Faith, a vast amount of the sheep were illiterate. Were those sheep misled by the Church simply because they couldn’t read or know better? I have decided at least for myself that it’s more important to be obedient than right. More of Christ’s sheep are in the Catholic Church than in any other, and I’ll grant you they’re not always the brightest, but they still hear the Master’s voice.
Hello Mrs. Forrester,
What a fascinating story! I was amazed at how close you were to the truth, and I kept rooting for you to find it in its entirety. I was shocked by the turn you took. When you realized that the once saved always saved doctrine was false you were absolutely correct! Scriptures such as Heb. 3: 6, 12, and 14 indicate that we must endure in The Faith to the end if we are to be the house of God and partakers of Christ, and in order to keep from departing from the living God. Verse 3:1 establishes that he is speaking to the saved (holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling). Verses 6, 12, and 14 also indicate that their beginning and current confidence was good to begin with since they are encouraged to finish with it, and that they are in real danger of departing from the living God, to whom they had come (past tense). Scriptures such as 2 Peter 2: 18-22 and Hebrews 6:4-8 teach plainly that saved people may still fall away. Indeed, many other verses teach likewise. I was cheering that you had realized it! Where do they get their ideas from?! You were correct in saying that they do not adhere to sola scriptura. I am so disappointed that you did not continue on the path of truth!
It seems strange to me that you would reject the Scriptures as our soul authority today, but you still try to establish the Catholic doctrines with it, demonstrating that you recognize its authority over their tradition. You seem to understand the fact that if their Traditions contradict the Bible then they cannot be true. Unless you believe such contradiction indicates that the Bible is untrue! I trust that you would agree that if the Bible had real (rather than merely alleged) contradictions we would not accept it as The Word of God. Why not apply this very simple and rational principle to the Catholic Traditions as well? Those Traditions contradict not only the Bible, but one another as well! Paul said that we should prove all things and to hold fast that which was proven good. Without this sound practice, it is amazing how a few misunderstandings and assumptions can lead almost anywhere.
You believe, for instance, that Christ promised that His holy Spirit would guide all Christians in a direct and miraculous way. You go so far as to claim that we all believe that. This is an erroneous assumption. I don’t believe that, and I am not alone. If the Catholic theologians really did use flawless exegesis they would have noticed that Jesus was not speaking to the Apostles successors when He said those things in the upper room, rather, He was speaking directly to His Apostles only. Where do they get the notion that the Apostles successors were being spoken to in that room? Some may have not even been born at that time! Furthermore, in John 17: 17-23, Jesus prays for His Apostles that God would sanctify them by His Word and indicates that He is also praying for all those who would believe on Him through their word, not anyone elses. We must hold to what we know His apostles taught. The Apostles were guided into all truth, and they commanded Christians in general to earnestly contend for the faith once and for all time delivered to the saints (Jude 3). Paul commanded that if any man, even one of the Apostles themselves, or even an angel from heaven were to preach any thing that contradicted that faith once delivered, they were to be accursed (Gal. 1: 6-8)! How then could Paul command in 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 that a Bishop must be the husband of one wife, and for the Apostles to have handed down a tradition that teaches that priests and Bishops do not have to be married, or worse, are forbidden to be?! We would do well to remember Paul’s warning from The Holy Spirit just one chapter later in 1Tim. 4: 1-5 about men doing this very thing.
You mentioned several Catholic doctrines that supposedly do not have refutations. You are wrong. The whole notion that the Catholic Church is handing down oral teaching that is parallel to the Bible and comes directly from the Apostles is false. The early church quoted the scriptures to support the authority of what they said. So much so that we can reproduce the entire New Testament from their writings alone, save for about eleven verses. “Sir David Dalrymple was wondering about the preponderance of Scripture in early writing when someone asked him, ’suppose that the New Testament had been destroyed, and every copy of it lost by the end of the third century, could it have been collected together again from the writings of the Fathers of the second and third centuries?
“After a great deal of investigation Dalrymple concluded: ‘Look at those books. You remember the question about the New Testament and the Fathers? That question roused my curiosity, and as I possessed all the existing works of the Fathers of the second and third centuries, I commenced to search, and up to this time I have found the entire New Testament, except eleven verses,” (As recorded by Josh McDowel in Evidence That Demands a Verdict; Leach, Charles. Our Bible. How We Got It. Chicago: Moody Press, 1898).
There is also a table included in this section of “Evidence That Demands A Verdict” that is from other sources that indicate that within the same time frame (the end of the third century) there had been over 14,000 quotations of the Pauline letters alone by these early “Fathers” (Bruce, F.F. “Archaeological Confirmation of the New Testament.” Revelation and the Bible. Edited by Carl Henry. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1969). This is within about 250 years of Paul’s writings.
Amongst these quotations we find 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 which tells us that Bishops must be the husband of one wife, and 1 Tim. 4: 1-3 where Paul warns of some who would depart from the faith, forbid to marry and command to abstain from meats. The question I would like to point out to you is, were these early church leaders quoting these scriptures in their letters back and forth to one another openly and saving these letters for posterity, while, in the back rooms, passing on the oral tradition that we can’t eat meat on Friday and priests and Bishops cannot marry??? Is it possible to reconcile these facts, or to continue to believe that the Catholic religion has not tried to make laws for God or taught an oral tradition that can not possibly be from the Apostles, or the early church leaders??? I think this can help you see the fallacy of the Catholic Traditions. I pray that it is a useful thought to you.
More specifically, regarding some of the other doctrines you mentioned. The scriptures plainly say that Joseph took Mary to Himself but did not “know her” until after she gave birth to her firstborn Son. (Matt. 1: 18-25). I am not inferring anything here; rather the scripture clearly implies that he did eventually know her. In addition, when men passed word to Jesus that His mother and brethren were without seeking to speak to Him, He responded, “who is my mother and who are my brothers,” then indicating his disciples, “behold my mother and my brothers, for whosoever will do the will of my Father in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Furthermore, when a woman in the crowd cried out saying, “blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed.” Jesus said, “On the contrary, more blessed are they that hear the words of my Father and do them.” So, my beloved sister Mary is awesome, but not more so than anyone who will do the will of the Father.
The idea that she had to have been born of a virgin is made up by erroneous human wisdom. First, they assume that the original sin is inherited by all (the verses they point to in support of this are either poetry [Psalm 51, which is hyperbole. We may easily see this by Psalm 51:7; 22: 6; and many others.] or they are speaking about the physical consequences of Adam and Eve having been cast out of the Garden of Eden so as to lose access to the Tree of Life.). They give no sensible mechanism of action to explain how we can inherit our parent’s sin. Then, they assume that the only way for Jesus to escape that original sin is for his mother to be a sinless virgin. However, if it is necessary for Jesus to have a sinless virgin for a mother in order to be sinless himself, then his mother must likewise have a sinless virgin for a mother in order for her to be sinless, and so on. We see that in order to eliminate the perpetual inheritance of original sin completely, it becomes necessary for there to be a precession of sinless virgins all the way back to Eve, but it is evident that Eve was not sinless. Thank God the original sin is not inherited! We know this because of many scriptures that teach that sin is disobedience to God, but also by Ezek 18: 1-32 (esp. v.4, 9, 13, 17, 18, 19, *20,) who teaches that it is equally impossible for a son to inherit his fathers sins as it is for a father to inherit his son’s sins!
I have already dealt with the false notion that all Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding them in to all truth in some miraculous way, or that the successors of the Apostles have such. Jesus promised to guide the Apostles into all truth, if He did not, He lied. So it is the case that they were guided into all truth directly by The Holy Spirit in a miraculous way. We are guided into the whole truth revealed by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, which is The Word of God, by means of the Holy Bible. Even the Apostles cannot add to or take away from that.
You say that you had doubts and questions that you had put on the back burner, doubts such as, “…how could each and every individual person’s faith rest on personal devotional Bible reading, when most people, until relatively modern times, couldn’t even read? And, even if they could read, they wouldn’t be able to own their own personal Bible because Bibles were hand copied (until the 16th century) and very expensive.” The answer may be as simple as the fact that the Bible itself prophesies, in Amos 8:11-12, that God was going to send a famine of His word into the world. Not only that but Paul warned that their would be men who would rise up from among the elders (Bishops) who would be wolves in sheep’s clothing, and who would depart from the faith and forbid men to marry or to eat meats (1 Tim. 4: 1-3). Paul and John both warned of an impending “great falling away.”
As far as the word of God coming to the people through the preaching of the Catholic Church, this was a similar situation to the one in the Old Testament of which Jesus speaks, “you make the Word of God of none effect by your traditions.” And, “in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandment of men.” Jesus did not make that all right, but said that they worshiped in vain. He also indicated in Luke 16: 19-31 that they had the writings of Moses and the Prophets (not the traditions of the elders), and that if they would not heed those Scriptures, they would not heed one even if they had been raised from the dead!
We should also remember that the Catholic Church preached the Bible in a tongue that was unknown to the people they were preaching to! This is a clear violation of what Paul commanded in 1 Cor. 14, that we are to be silent in the church unless what we are saying may be understood. In such a contradiction what is one to do, hold to the Scriptures or the commandments of the Catholic Church? Let’s let Peter answer, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. (Acts 4: 19-20)”
Furthermore, God has commanded us to be responsible for our own faith. We are to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, and with all of our souls, and with all of our minds, and with all of our strength! If we do not diligently seek Him we will not make it. If we are willing to let men arise and teach false things, and heap to ourselves preachers preaching smooth things, we will end up in an apostasy of our own making. This happened in the Old Testament days and also in the New Testament era. The Catholic Church is an example of that, but so are the Protestant Denominations. I am confident that if there were those who truly loved God, He would have given them the opportunity to know His will by giving them access to His Word. He certainly has the power to do that, and He is faithful. It is not a stretch to think that men simply did not truly love God.
You mentioned John 6 where Jesus says that it is necessary to eat His flesh and drink His blood. You claim that there is no indication that it is symbolic. There is indication that he was referring to the same thing He referred to when He instituted the Lord’s Supper (Communion). In that He said, “…This is my body which is given for you: do this in remembrance of me, (Luke 22:19)” and “…this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many, for the remission of sins, (Matt. 26: 28)” there are a couple of things worth mentioning. First, it is to be done in remembrance of Him and what He did for us. Second, His body was clearly still alive and sitting before them, breaking and handing them the bread, the Scripture calling it bread. Third, His blood was still running through His veins; He had yet to shed it. If this were not the case, and His disciples were actually eating and drinking His flesh and blood unto everlasting life, Jesus would not have gone to the cross! There would have been no need to, they were already eating and drinking unto everlasting life! However, that is missing the point. Jesus came to suffer the punishment for our sins, to be the propitiation of God’s righteous wrath. We understand that Jesus was speaking figuratively of what He would soon accomplish, and of our reliance on that for our forgiveness. Remember the Passover in Egypt, eating the lambs did not save their firstborn directly. It was that they believed God, and he passed over them. Jesus is our Passover.
Additionally, if you read the passage in John 6 carefully you will note that he speaks of the manna and indicates that it was symbolic of Him. He is the true manna. In verse 26 He begins to rebuke them for seeking Him in order that they may fill their bellies. This is important to remember. He then tells them not to labor for the food that perishes but rather for the food which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give. He is pointing out the figurative nature of the manna the Israelites received in the wilderness, by how it is a type and shadow of Him. Therefore, He is speaking of figurative things. So, in rebuking them for desiring to fill their bellies more than their hearts with the will of God, He does indeed use figurative language in teaching them that they must put their faith in Him, instead of being concerned with filling their bellies, as the Israelites in the wilderness were.
When they asked Him how they were to work the works of God, referring to the labor for the true bread He just mentioned, Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Obviously, the laboring for bread is figurative. He continues with the comparative figure between him and the manna, and keeps coming back to the idea of having faith in Him in order to receive salvation. (It is important at this point, for us to realize that Biblical faith is not faith-only, any more than Mary not “knowing a man” was “know-only”, or for those “who heard the voice of the Son of Man” and received everlasting life “heard-only.” Biblical, living, and saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God and being in subjection to it. Remember that James says that faith without obedience to Gods will is as dead as a corpse.)
Verse 6: 35-40 is key, He explains that he will raise from the dead, those who believe in Him. He says that He is the bread of life, He who comes to Him shall never hunger, and he who believes in Him shall never thirst. He does not mention eating and drinking; He only mentions coming to and believing in. At the end of verse 51 He makes it clear that He is speaking of His suffering for the sins of the world when He speaks of His giving of His flesh. Again, the suffering is critical because it is the propitiation for our sins.
Your concern that Jesus did not chase after these unbelievers to explain that He was speaking figuratively is misguided. Jesus often spoke in figures and parables that those who were there for the wrong reasons would not understand, and then He explained them more plainly to His disciples in private. Again, Jesus came to accomplish a mission and you are missing that. You think God should serve us on our terms. You think Jesus had no right to speak to these people in parables or with figures of speech that they misunderstood. Jesus saw into their hearts and did what was good to accomplish the will of the Father. I am so glad He did!
As far as trusting the early church “fathers” to give us the truth about the scriptures, this is not an entirely correct way of viewing it. We do indeed examine their testimony, along with all the other evidence we can muster, and come to the best conclusion we can on what is and what isn’t The Word of God. When we do this we find that the evidence weighs overwhelmingly in favor of the Scriptures being the word of God and the Traditions of the Catholic Church and many other things the early “fathers” wrote being false. I mentioned some of that above. The early leaders themselves indicated when they were quoting scripture making it clear that they held the scriptures above all other writings or words of men. How then can we believe that they respected the Traditions equally? Looking to their writings, we see them using the scriptures as the foundation or start off point to reason with or to justify their positions. This gives us opportunity to reason with them and to see if their logic is sound. If we look and see that they contradict the Bible, we can say with confidence that they were simply wrong, and their reasoning faulty. They do not have the authority from God to contradict the Scriptures any more than Peter did when Paul withstood him to the face, or than Paul claimed when he said, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” Why do these non-apostles claim to be able to do so?
Your boast that the Catholic Church resembles the Jewish religion and adheres more closely to the Old Testament is an admission of grievous error by the Catholic Church! There has been by necessity, a change in the law (Heb. 7: 12), we no longer abide by the Old Testament. The Law of Moses is obsolete and has passed away (Heb. 8: 13)! If we go back to the practices of the Law of Moses, even just going back to a part of it, such as with circumcision, we make ourselves debters to do the whole law, and Christ will profit us nothing (Gal. 5: 1-6)! As Paul said, I am afraid for you, lest labor has been bestowed upon you in vain. Though I do not believe that you have actually been saved, as of yet, listening to your testimony. The Truth saves, we have no reason to believe that we can be saved in spite of not having it.
When they forbid priests and Bishops to marry and command that we abstain from meat on Friday, we know they are wrong. Likewise, when they speak of the Eucharist having the Spirit of God, we have no reason to believe them if they do not have Biblical authority to say what they say. We can see that they are wrong because the Scriptures teach that if we love Jesus we will obey His teachings, His Father will love us, and they will come to us, and make their abode with us. Christians are the body of Christ and His Holy Temple. The Spirit of God dwells within us. Paul said, “…the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? So, we being many, are one bread and one body.(1 Corinthians 10: 16-17).” Moreover, in 1 Corinthians 11 he condemns the Corinthian church for the way in which they partook of the Lord’s Supper, because they were “…not discerning the Lord’s body, “ in that they were not loving one another, and they had divisions among them. Each was taking his own supper before others. He says nothing about the Spirit of God being in the bread. On the Contrary, the Scriptures are consistent in teaching that the Spirit lives in the people of God.
The Catholic Church therefore, fails to discern the Lord’s body. They command men to anoint themselves with “holy water” in order to be worthy to enter a building made with hands. They command men to genuflect when passing before the alter, or some such thing, because God is said to live in some “relic” or something, behind the alter. In this they teach that their members are hardly worthy for the building, But in the true church, the building is hardly worthy of the members of Christ’s body! We are the Temple of the Living God, the Maker of Heaven and of Earth! His Holy Spirit has made the soil of our hearts Holy Ground! The churches of Christ meet at buildings made by hands, but we are a building not made with hands! You may feel that the Catholic Church is special, but the true faith is not based on feelings, it is based on truth and that which may be tested and proven good!
I plead with you to hear what I am saying. You said in your article that you begged God to show you the truth, here it is. God may not have given it to you in the time frame that you demand, but here it is. Do not turn from it! Do not cleave to your desire to feel good. I am sorry that you went through so much from protestant denominations, they too are wrong, as you so aptly described. Do not make the mistake of thinking I am a member of such. I am a member of the true church of Christ. We are made up of tens of thousands of congregations world wide, each of which are completely independent from and yet one with the others, and with a structure according to the Scriptures. We are able to speak the same things and be of the same mind because the New Testament is our only authority. We do not use creed books or “church traditions”. We do not follow the Law of Moses. Jesus is the head, and there is only one head. As the Scriptures commands us to speak as the oracles of God, we speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent.
Sincerely,
Joe, of Tarentum’s congregation of
Christ’s church
P.O. Box 255
Tarentum, PA 15084
jduran1@email.itt-tech.edu
uh…. wow.
My response to some of the above comment can be found on these posts:
What is Catholic Tradition?
Doesn’t this contradict the Bible?
Chuch Heirarchy
Your conversion story is great. Even my Catholic faith is nourished by your humble story.
God bless you and your family and hopefully your ever supportive husband would come home, God willing.
To Jesus Christ be praised forver!
To Catholic Defender,
Hello, I appreciate what you have said regarding wanting Jesus Christ to be praised forever, and about wanting others to be blessed and to come to Jesus. However, please note that Jesus says that if anyone loves Him they will obey His teaching, and that His words will judge us in the last day. If He is our Lord and we turly love Him we must follow His voice and not someone elses.
We agree that all Scripture is breathed by God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished unto every good work. He says Scripture, not Tradition. When the tradition of the Apostles is mentioned, he is referring specifically to their teaching. If we will do this we can not contradict their teaching.
Jesus prayed for His Apostles, that the Father would sanctify them by His word, and also for all who will believe on Him through their word, not some other men’s words (John 17: 17-20). Paul commanded that we prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. We can prove that the Bible is from God, but we can not prove that the Roman Catholic Traditions are from Him. On the contrary we can prove that they are not from Him by demonstrating that they contradict the tradition of the Apostles, which we know to be recorded in the Bible.
The Roman Catholic Tradition contradicts the known teaching of the Apostles, which is found in the Bible when they command not to eat meat on Friday (1 Tim. 4: 1-5), when they forbid Bishops and priests to marry (1 Tim. 4: 1-5), when they teach that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life (Matt 1: 24-25; Joseph did not know her until after Jesus was born), when they teach that she is a mediator (1 Tim. 2: 5), when they claim that just one word from her will appease Jesus and allow us to be forgiven (Matt. 7: 21; we must do the will of the Father in order to enter the Kingdom so matter how much we do to please Mary, or how much she may speak on our behalf.), when they teach that the original sin is inherited by all humans (Ezekiel 18: 1-20, esp. 19-20), and when they practice infant baptism (Jer. 31: 31-34,esp. 34, there will be none in the New Covenant who must still be taught to know God because they must hear and believe the Gospel, repent, confess Jesus is Lord, and then be baptized; Mark 16: 15-16, you must beleive and be baptized; Acts 2: 41, those who gladly received his word were baptized. Infants are not proper candidates.).
By this we may see clearly that they fulfill Paul’s inspired warnings in Acts 20: 17-32 (esp. 28-30 where he indicates that elders are overseers, and he indicates that false teachers will arise from among the bishops), and in 1 Tim. 4: 1-3.
Please know that I do not want to insult you or anyone else, however, I am commanded to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered (past tense) to the saints. I want very much to rejoice with you in the Kingdom of my Heavenly Father, and for us to sing His praises along with many others forever and ever, amen.
Hello Joseph,
To Jesus Christ be praised. This is our Catholic faith. We praise God alone.
Catholic Tradition doesn’t contradict the teachings of the Apostles. It was through these same Apostles that we have this Sacred Tradition. Beyond any doubt, I am convinced that the Catholic Church which is the only Church that can trace its roots to the times of the Apostles is the truest Church of Christ which Hhimself promised to stay until he comes and that the gates of hell will not prevail.
This is Christ promise to the Church. Thanks for your time. and may God bless you and your loved ones.
Dear Catholic Defender,
thank you for your kindness and blessings to me and my loved ones. I pray you and yours are very well. I also appreciate your steadfastness and desire to be rock-solid. I do not like “fair weather fans” much, and I appreciate that you do not want to be one.
However, for you to read the scriptures I have posted that are clearly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Tradition and to claim that they are not contrary is difficult to understand. Please note that it is faithfulness to Jesus that saves, not faithfulness to men. Remember, in 1 Cor. 11: 19, Paul said that their is a legitimate reason for division, so that those who are aproved may be made manifest. He did not say that their would not be division, but that there would be, and that if we earnestly contend for the one faith that was once and for all time delivered to the saints as Jude commands, we will divide from those who are going astray.
Furthermore, when Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church, He was saying that as long as we are faithful to Him and do not fall away, as a faithful bride, the second death has no power over us. He was not saying that men would not fall away, on the contrary, Paul emphatically stated in no uncertain terms that men from among the bishops themselves would be wolves is sheep’s clothing and would draw men away. Paul and John both tell us that their will be a “great falling away”. So we see from the Scriptures that both division and apostasy are certain. How do you suppose we are to be protected from these false teachers? Paul commanded us to prove all things and to hold fast that which is proven good. We can use the Bible as our standard of what is good and see that the Catholic Tradition falls short.
Amos prophesied of a famine of God’s word (Amos 8:11), and when the Catholic leadership commanded that the Bible be read to the masses in Latin only, even though the people did not speak Latin, they were plainly commanding things contrary to Paul’s commandment to only speak words which could be understood (1 Cor. 14). The Catholic Church refused to allow men to make translations of the Bible into languages the masses could understand. Clearly, they helped to perpetrate the famine of God’s word.
The Roman Catholic Tradition does indeed contradict the Scriptures and is designed to establish authority in the hands of men which God never intended, just as the Jewish traditions did. We cannot demonstrate that this Tradition comes from the Apostles, on the contrary, we can demonstrate that it does not. Please hear these words, your soul and the souls of your loved one’s depends on loving the Truth.
I pray you will approach your continued study of God’s Word with a sincere heart, all of our souls depend on us doing that each time we go to study His sacred words. May God bless you and your cherished family and friends.
Hello again Catholic Defender,
One more thing quickly. I am not sure I was entirely clear about my point regarding the apostasy and divisions. They are prophesied by the Holy Spirit to be from men within the group of bishops in the church, therefore, those who go astray may still claim to come from the true Church. They may legitimately claim a lineage that goes back to the Apostles, but that does nothing to prove thier truthfulness. These facts also demonstrate that Jesus was not saying that an apostasy and divisions of the church would not occur, when He said that the gates of Hades shall not prevail against His church, but rather, as I said, He was saying that for those who remain faithful to the end, the second death has no power.
That which makes the Church is the Word of God, which is the seed of the Kingdom. Men found 2000 year old chickweed seed in an earthen jar in China and planted it. Do you know what grew? Chickweed! If we plant the seed of the Kingdom, which is the Word of God found in the Holy Scriptures, what do you suppose will grow? The Kingdom of the living God! The church of Christ!
Please meditate on these immensely important things, and may God richly bless you.
Thank you Joseph. As the Anglican Archbishop converted to Catholicism Cardinal Henry Newman “To be deep in history is to ceased to be a Protestant” In history, you will find how the Catholic Church and the Bible came to be.
Thanks for your time and thanks for praying for me. Likewise I pray for you always for God has loved each Christian and prayed that one day we may be one as He and the Father is one.
God bless.
I am presently studying the history of the “Church” and it is extremely fascinating and very revealing. I am finding that it gives no confidence in the Roman Catholic Church or her Traditions, quite the contrary, it proves that there is no legitimacy to her claims. I will give you reasons and evidence for my statements in a future note.
For now, concerning my claims that 1 Tim 3: 1, 2 and following, regarding the qualifications of Bishopric, demonstrates a contradiction between Roman Catholic Tradition and the Word of God, I offer a brother’s conclusions. The short version is as follows:
Dear Joseph,
While I am no Greek scholar, I do have some access to Greek tools and have given this some degree of study and consideration. What follows is the result of my preparations.
It is true that no imperative exists in the text of 1 Timothy 3:2, but there is a good reason for this… verbs in the imperative mood are given to be followed and realized by the hearer. They convey an action that must be obeyed or a state that must be entered into. In other words, imperatives take a person from one place to another. For example, in Acts 2:38, the hearers asked “What shall we do?” In response to this inquiry, Peter told them to repent and be baptized. Why? Because they had done neither. Thus, both repent and be baptized are imperatives that must be obeyed because they are not yet realized.
The verb translated “must be” in 1 Timothy 3:2 is a present active indicative. Whereas an imperative gives a command to fulfill what is lacking (e.g. repent and be baptized), the present active indicatives indicates the requirements that must already be present and continually possessed by the candidate for bishop. In this usage, the indicative carries the same sense of obligation as an imperative. The text does not command men to possess the qualifications in the sense of not possessing them at the time, but rather demands the qualifications already be in possession by the candidate at the time of his appointment.
Hope this his helpful to you in your studies. Let me know if this clear and helpful. If not, I will do my best to clarify.
Take care and God bless.
Sincerely,
Todd Clippard
House to House – Heart to Heart
I hope this helps you to see the Truth of God’s Word more clearly. I pray that you will diligently seek God and love His Truth, rather than the Traditions of men.
Mr Duran,
may I kindly suggest that there are better places for you to carry on your message. Pam put her finger on it in her conversion testimony that what we have here is a difference in interpretations and exegesis.
Personally I have found Pam’s story compelling and a reinforcement of my own faith (I am a cradle Catholic) and I would wager a guess that the majority of readedrs here are likewise here for the same thing.
I am pleased to have you as a brother in Christ, our differences notwithstanding. I appreciate your desire to witness to people you believe in error, but I dont think any reader here visits Pam’s site for confrontation.
Respectfully
Dan
Hello Mr. Scerpella,
I am pleased to make your acquaintance, so-to-speak. Let me say that I truly appreciate your recognition of me as a Christian and your kind way of suggesting that I cease my work here, but with all due respect, I believe it is better for me to obey God than to obey you. While Jude was diligent to write to the brethren concerning the common salvation of Christians, he found it necessary to write to exhort them to earnestly contend for The Faith, which was once and for all time delivered to the saints. Since this is so, and my work here is to earnestly contend for that one faith (Jude 3), and it is the Truth that sanctifies (John 17: 17) and saves (John 8: 31-32), we cannot be saved in spite of not believing the Truth, I will not voluntarily cease my effort. If you are a Christian, then you must recognize that Jude’s exhortation likely applies to you also.
If we refuse to believe God in favor of believing men, we are rejecting God and lose any confidence in our salvation even if we had already been saved at some earlier point (read Galatians). In the case of being able to understand what God says and choosing to ignore that because we like what men say better, we may have great confidence that we are to be damned.
Therefore, this is extremely important, because it is very clear that the passage in 1Tim 3: 1-7 contradicts the Roman Catholic Tradition, and there is no way to escape that fact. We may say that God is true, or we may say that the Roman Catholic Tradition is true, but we may not say that they are both true. That is impossibility. There are numerous other serious contradictions, making it clear that Roman Catholicism is not from God (God cannot contradict Himself), but rather it in fact fulfills Paul’s warning in 1Tim. 4: 1-3.
This statement is demonstrably true. If you truly love God, and not just Roman Catholicism, this will be extremely important to you. Unfortunately, most of you do not care. You will do amazing feats of twisting scripture, logic, and reason, in order to cling to the notion that there may be a way to “interpret” the Scripture in a harmonious way, like a lawyer looking for loopholes in a contract. You will attempt to “interpret” Scripture in the “light” of Tradition.
However, there may be one or two who actually care about Truth, so God has sent me for their sake. I do not believe you have the authority to speak for all of the people who visit this site. I do however expect someone to block and sensor me soon.
I hope you actually do love the truth and will be willing to re-read what I have written to consider my claims seriously, rather than simply to blow-them-off. I am praying for you and all others, that God will bless your continued study.
God bless you and your loved ones, and good day.
“Unfortunately, most of you do not care. ” (J.Duran)
I personally take HUGE offense to this statement. I don’t find that to be true with any of my Christian brothers or sisters.
You are right to be offended. I apologize. I shouldn’t have said it this way, because I do not know even close to “most of you” who visit this site. However, it is my experience that virtually every Catholic I have met may be shown that their religion is contrary to God’s express wishes, and they simply do not care. I hope this is not the case with the Catholics on this site. I hope you will understand my error and accept my apology.
I will also remind you that to the Jews, who most ordinary people would have considered “good” people, Jesus said that they were children of their father the Devil. This is because they would not hear Him. Jesus was not being mean He was being truthful. He told us that most people will enter in at the Broad gate, refusing to hear His words. So, I am playing the odds here with that comment, and I am likely correct, but I do not know that I am. Therefore, I admit my error.
Lastly, imagine the offense to God from folks who do not care about what He says. I mean sure, they’re in subjection to some of what God says, as long as their human leaders tell them to be, but is that truly in subjection to God? They also reject God wherever their leaders tell them to. God is so worthy of our love and adoration and worship. We should be happy to heed His words rather than to twist them in search of a way to cling to false religion. Did you notice the quote from Pope Benedict, which was posted on Poet Verse? If the quote is truly from him, he basically said that you can be saved even if you believe Jesus is false. This is an offense! I notice you have not mentioned being offended by such things.
Hmmmm……..lots of us ARE spending our time loving and adoring our Father. Others are spending their time telling us how WRONG we are. My offense is that yes, you don’t really know our heart or Minds or how we know our Father or How we love HIM! “I notice you have not metioned being offended by such things.”…????Wow, you have spent soooo much time with me.
Yes, i would have been happy to accept your apology if you had not undone it at the end. Maybe someday we will meet in heaven and you will be able to say… wow…. alot of people loved the Lord that I just wrote off. Maybe HE is filled with a whole lot of Grace that you as a human just don’t understand.
Please know that my first error was less of an accusation and more of a lamentation. My second more of an encouragement to you to focus less on my manner of speech and more on the truly offensive and important fact that there has been a group of men grabbing religious authority against God’s wishes and leading millions astray for centuries. That is why I continually point out their various contradictions against God, which people seem to ignore to my bewilderment and frustration.
I am sorry for hurting your feelings, but may I suggest that we try not to make this about me or my manner of speech and focus on the real issue, unless that is the real issue in your eyes. For me it is about God and His desire, and the salvation of souls. You seem to be suggesting that you are a tolerant fellow; I am asking you to actually be one.
As far as seeing people in Heaven that I do not expect to see, I hope that is the case. That is the second most important reason for me to continue my work here. First, it is to honor God and second it is to help someone to see the truth. We cannot honor God while calling Him a liar at the same time. This is why it is so important for Catholics to understand that this is what their religion in fact does. Obviously, I am not writing any of you off. If I were to do so, I would not waste my breath, I would be as the prophet Jonas, yet here I am.
As far as God having Grace that I simply do not understand as a human, this is true. I could not have inkling if His Word, The Holy Bible, had not revealed it to me. However, it has been revealed. I still cannot completely comprehend it, but I may apprehend it, and I see that it is limitless and that it is entirely in Christ Jesus. His Holiness (not the Pope) is also beyond our comprehension, but we may apprehend from the Scriptures that, because of His Holiness, we may not be saved if we are not a faithful bride to His Beloved Son Jesus. That is why I am here, to help you see that you are not being a faithful bride. Rather, a deceitful lover, The Roman Catholic Church, has beguiled you. The Protestants are in the same bed.
This is not about you or I personally. You may be ten times the man I am, it makes no difference, it is the Truth that saves. This ought to be the thing you choose to focus on. I hope that your comments are not a revelation that you hold a belief that people can be saved in spite of not having the truth but in stead being contrary to it. I must warn against such notions as Satanic, because the Bible says that IF WE ABIDE IN JESUS’ WORDS, then we will be His disciples in deed and WE WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL MAKE US FREE (John 8: 31-32). Men cannot “interpret” that away.
That was good, Allie
God Bless Pam Forrester bfhu.wordpress.com
I believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ His only son … born of the Virgin Mary. He was crucified and died for my sins. I believe in the Holy Spirit. The trinity. God in 3 person. I believe in Sacred Scripture and hope to pattern my life after Jesus in all my thoughts, words and deeds. I believe it is import I spend as much time as possible in prayer and that when I do mess up in the live I can turn to my Father, confess my sin and I will be forgiven.
I am sorry that you think I am so misguided. I guess you can stand in knowledge that at least you tried to talk to me.
If the day comes I am condemned to hell for my belief, then it will be on my Fathers judgement and not yours.
I agree with much of what you have just said, with a few very important exceptions. I believe those agreeable things are very good, and I am pleased that you believe them. However, I do not say that because it is my opinion, I say it because of what God’s word says. That is one more place where I may not have been clear. This is not about my judgment, but rather it is about what Jesus has said. His words will judge us in the last day. Thank God, we now have His words!
Furthermore, by the time God is telling you to depart it will be too late. I am not content with waiting until that time and simply saying, “I told you so.” You see if we study the scriptures we find that even though various churches, such as those in the region of Galatia, continued to believe the things you just mentioned, they still had fallen from grace. Christ would prophet them nothing if they refused to repent and turn back to the truth. There certainly are core things that are plain and necessary for us to believe in and to be in subjection to, some of which you overtly reject. Again, this is not my opinion it is demonstrable Biblical doctrine.
Additionally, you believe in the Roman Catholic Church and her leaders, whom are contrary to God. They are some of the ones Paul warned us about, and they are to be accursed. The Scriptures are clear, as “good” of a person as you may be, you may not be saved in spite of this. It baffles me how you can be unconcerned about the fact that your religion contradicts God, but as you said; I have given it a sincere effort. Can you say the same?
Regarding those few things, which you mentioned and with which we disagree, God is not your Father just because you say that He is. Jesus said to certain of the Jews who made this same claim, that they were sons of their father the Devil. He said this because they rejected the truth. John said that to all those who received Jesus, He gave the right to BECOME sons of God (not that they already were simply by receiving Him), not by blood (bloodline), nor by the will of the flesh (the flesh lusts mindlessly for anything), nor by the will of man (our desire cannot accomplish it apart from, or in contradiction to, God), but by the will of God (we must be in subjection to his will and come to Him according to His appointed way, then He will save). Moreover, those who have not come to Him according to the way in which He purposed in Himself from before the foundation of the world, have no right to come before His throne to seek forgiveness. They may not circumvent His way, and it is my contention that God has been very clear about what His appointed way is. We may be certain about it; there is no excuse to miss it.
Please meditate prayerfully on these immensely important things. Thank you again for your time, and may God bless your continued study.
1. What are the exceptions?
2. What do you disagree with my statement?
3. God is not my Father? The devil is my Father?
4. Please explain how I have rejected the Truth.
5. I was raised in the Disciples of Christ, became Methodist at 18 I am not Roman Catholic.
Pam/or others on this blog, please explain for me if my last post deviates from Catholic belief. with the exception that I left out Jesus rose from the cross and is alive now.
I do have to apologize because to indicate that your judgment is of any importance to me was sarcasm on my part.
Great! I am glad you are still willing to speak to me about these pertinent issues. Now it seems we are getting somewhere. We agree then that my opinion means nothing. I was not aware that you are not a Catholic. Is this an indication then that we also agree that the Roman Catholic Religion is wrong? Certainly, the Roman Catholics agree with me that Protestantism in general, and that the Methodist denomination in particular, is wrong.
I think that questions 1-3 and statements 4-5 are all related to the same thing, whether or not you are actually saved (not my opinion about this since we agree that it does not matter).
Yes, you called God your Father and claimed that you may simply pray for forgiveness and that you were confident that He would indeed forgive you. I appreciate your beliefs and feelings about this. Many men teach about how to become a member of their denominations, claiming that if you do you will be a Christian, and they have been refining their method of teaching this for centuries. It seems that more and more today people are of the OPINION that all who claim a faith in Jesus are saved, even if they are all contradictory to one another and to God, even if their beliefs about God are made up! This is also a contrast to what many of these denominations once taught, that their particular denomination was the true faith (some still do teach that).
Each denomination also teaches unique ways of organizing, worshiping, and various other religious practices, etc. They all follow their own creed books. You see, a Baptist is a Baptist, and a Methodist is a Methodist, and a Presbyterian is a Presbyterian. They are not the same. Each has unity with their own denomination, they become members in the same way, they speak the same things, they practice the same things, worship in the same way, and are organized in the same way, etc. They do not have this same unity with the other denominations.
This is because their unity is based on something different, their respective creed books, books of church doctrine, books of church discipline, Watch Tower magazines, traditions, etc., hence forth to be referred to simply as “creed books”. Each has their own, and they are not the same. Worse, the creed books they use today are not the same as what that particular denomination began with, they are periodically “updated.”
The “Ministers” of these diverse denominations are sworn to uphold their particular creed book. They may not be a “Minister” in that denomination otherwise. If that Minister deviates from the creed book he runs the risk of excommunication, or disfellowship, or being fired, or what have you. For example, if a Methodist Minister were to teach characteristically Catholic doctrine, he would not be a Methodist Minister for long.
Jesus taught that we can not serve two masters because we will cleave to the one and forsake the other, or else we will love the one and despise the other. Jesus did not lie. The fact that a Methodist is a Methodist, a Baptist a Baptist, a Lutheran a Lutheran, and a Presbyterian a Presbyterian is a demonstration of the fact that they cleave to their respective creed books. What do you suppose this means about their attitude towards the Bible, regardless of what they claim their attitude is?
Remember that Jesus did not lie. Since the foundation of their unity is the teaching of their denominations’ creed books, it is evident that it is not the Bible, and therefore the denomination can not be true. I believe Pam also pointed out that Protestants follow human traditions. She and I agree on this point. However, she seems to think that since you all follow human traditions; you are all equally acceptable, failing to recognize that this is not something that may be justified. Again, my opinion does not matter, but I am speaking about things that we may demonstrate are true.
This brief introduction to my position on this topic should be enough to show that the denominations admission that the Bible is the Word of God with their continued adherence to their creed books is an admission that they can not be true. We should follow what we can prove is from God. The creed books are evidently from men, while the Bible is clearly divine in origin.
I am not an expert on Methodist teaching; however, if I am not mistaken, modern Methodists do not believe what the original Methodists believed. You can teach me about that if you please and I will check it out for myself. If I am correct on this point, it is further evidence that they do not consider their creed book to be infallible. Nevertheless, they may still fire a Minister who deviates from it in order to hold to the Bible, which is infallible.
I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that Methodists teach that all one must do to be saved is to say a “sinners prayer,” and once you are saved, you can never fall away. If this is what they believe, then they contradict God’s Word. The things you mentioned above are also necessary, to love God, to pray often, to seek to be like Jesus, to love people, etc. In order to do these things and to begin a true walk with Jesus, one must hear the Gospel, believe it, repent (cease rebellion and begin to obey God from a sincere heart), confess that Jesus is Lord, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and to endure in faithfulness to the end. These things are not my opinion, I did not pluck them out of thin air, and they are straight out of the Bible, the context bearing these out also.
Thank you again for your precious time, I am glad that you do not want to waste it on worldly living, but rather to seek God’s truth. God bless you and your loved ones.
Yes, you are wrong. That is not Methodist theology. Your salvation can be lost at any time. My mother is a Methodist pastor and Methodist theology is very similar to Catholic. Alot of her classes were actually taught be a Catholic nun.
No, I don’t agree with your position on Roman Catholic, because much like Pam and Scott Hahn in my search for truth I have come to the Catholic church and will enter in as a member in Spring 2010.
I don’t really feel like you addressed the numbered statements I put out there.
I would like an answer to my statements that I made. How would you believe that I am lost.
You speak negatively of groups of people without knowing their hearts or relationship with God. You say you have revelation that we don’t have. Am I to assume that then according to you, you will be the only one who is making it to heaven?
Your statements is that we should only believe what we can prove is from God…. I hate to break this to you, but we cannot “prove” any of this is from God.
*sorry. that should read taught BY a Catholic nun
Fascinating, and sad! First, let me clear up a misunderstanding. I am not sure where the idea that I am claiming to have special revelation directly to me from God came from. My information comes from the Bible. I hope you are not just throwing that in, in a false attempt to discredit me, as sort of a straw man argument. That would be very cheap. I know that I did not suggest the idea.
You seem to think that the claims I made are not in the Bible. I am sorry for not including the Scripture verses that prove the points. I assumed you would know to what I was referring.
In order to be saved, first, we must HEAR the gospel preached (Rom 1: 15-18; 10: 14-17; 1 Cor. 1: 18, 21; John 17: 20; etc.)
Second, we must BELIEVE that message (see the above verses and also, Mark 16: 15-16; John 20: 31, etc.).
Third, we must REPENT (Acts 2: 38; 3: 19; 17: 30; 2Pet. 3: 9; etc.).
Fourth, we must CONFESS that Jesus is the Lord (Matt. 10: 32-33).
Fifth, we must be IMMERSED in water (baptized) into Christ (Matt 28: 19; Mark 16: 15-16; Acts 2: 38; 8: 29-39; Galatians 3: 27; Colossians 2: 11-12: Rom. 6: 3-8; 1Pet. 3: 20-21; etc.).
At this point we receive the remission of sins, we receive the circumcision made without hands, our sins are washed away, and we are saved. However, we must still CONTINUE and ENDURE in the faith to the end in order to be made members of His “house”, to be “partakers of Christ”, to receive “the crown of life”, to be “clothed in white garments”, and so that our name is not blotted out of the book of life (Heb. 3: 6, 14; 6: 4-8; 2Pet. 2: 20-22; Rev. 2: 10; 3: 5; etc.).
Regarding my claims about not being able to serve two masters, Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other, You cannot serve God and mammon” (Matt. 6: 24). This is one reason why I say that the denominations forsake the Bible, since they evidently are loyal to their creed books.
The last thing I will mention in this letter is the woman pastor issue. Biblically speaking, Pastors are Elders are Overseers are Bishops, and Paul says plainly that a bishop must be the husband of one wife. Furthermore, he says earlier in the same passage that he will not suffer a woman to teach or have authority over the man. His reasons for that are that the woman was made as a help for the man, and that it was Eve who was beguiled. So, He takes it all the way back to God’s original purpose for women and the first sin of mankind. This proves that it transcends both ages and cultural boundaries. Clearly then, women simply cannot qualify to be Pastors, biblically speaking. Maybe you can explain more details of your particular beliefs regarding women Pastors.
I am out of time for now. Try not to be so angry; I am simply speaking matter-of-factly about these very important issues. I am not attacking you personally. I pray that God blesses your continued study.
Mr. Duran,
I feel the same about you fascinating and sad.
Why in the world would I be angry?
You have yet to address my(very simplistic belief ) statement and tell me where I am wrong in my belief.
I have to discredit some of your statements about your knowledge of Protestant and Catholic belief as you don’t know what your talking about. I have to discredit you mostly on your throwing away the old testament.(JD “because the New Testament is our only authority. )
(Matthew 5:17, “”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.NIV
“Don’t ever think that I came to set aside Moses’ Teachings or the Prophets. I didn’t come to set them aside but to make them come true. GWT”)
JD says : ” They command men to anoint themselves with “holy water” in order to be worthy to enter a building made with hands. They command men to genuflect when passing before the alter, or some such thing, because God is said to live in some “relic” or something, behind the alter.”
Happy says: This is not correct. I have never been commanded to anoint myself. No one is genuflecting to any alter. We are bowing down and showing respect to the KING! and it’s not like your gonna get kicked out of church if you don’t do that.
J D says: “I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that Methodists teach that all one must do to be saved is to say a “sinners prayer,” and once you are saved,”you can never fall away.
Happy says: yes, you are WRONG!!!!!!
JD says: “I do not want you to miss however that Jesus church is alive and well today. It is not a denomination. It is not Protestantism, or Roman Catholicism, or Orthodox Catholicism, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Seventh Day Adventists, or Mormons, or any of those. If you would like to know more about Christ’s church, visit the website of His Tarentum congregation listed above.” Fascinating, and sad! First, let me clear up a misunderstanding. I am not sure where the idea that I am claiming to have special revelation directly to me from God
“It is not a denomination.”
I am a member of the true church of Christ. We are made up of tens of thousands of congregations world wide, each of which are completely independent.
Happy says : Uh yes, sounds just like, Catholic, Methodist, Presb. Baptist.????
JD Says:”However, there may be one or two who actually care about Truth, so God has sent me for their sake. I do not believe you have the authority to speak for all of the people.”
JD Says, “First, let me clear up a misunderstanding. I am not sure where the idea that I am claiming to have special revelation directly to me from God”
Happy says….. Um well the statement that you made right there.
I, too am out of time. I am speaking matter- of- factly about these issues. I am not attacking you personally. I do have to believe though, that instead of knowing that there are many people who love the Lord and work to do his Work and His Will and that you can’t lump those who do and those who don’t in to one group and label them. I would venture to guess that their are 10’s of thousands in your church of Christ who are lost, fallen away from the truth or are “just going through the motions” but myself or anyone else is not in the position to make that assumption.
Good work Ally.
God Bless Pam Forrester bfhu.wordpress.com
Happy, I am so happy that you are paying attention! I fully intend to address the things you have mentioned, but do not have time right now. I want to exhort you to pay very close attention, and try to read the things I say in context, just as I would have you do with Scripture. Please, do not suggest that I have just now attempted to make my words equal with Scripture, I am simply asking you to try to understand what I am intending to convey.
I really appreciate your feedback as it helps me see where I am doing a poor job in communicating. I struggle with this area. I will try to take a bit more time so as to be more clear. I don’t have time, so it will be difficult.
So far, I have only given a brief overview of the reasons I have confidence in the things I said. The reasons Denominationalism in general is wrong, etc. If you have agreed with this and all of the other things I have said regarding what is necessary for salvation, the qualifications of bishopric, and any other thing regarding the faith, then I am happily surprised, and I thank God. I do not understand how you can be a Methodist or a Catholic and believe the claims I have made. If you do not agree, then I think that it is clear that I am in the process of explaining to you where you are wrong, in spite of your claim to the contrary.
As far as God sending me to preach the truth to you being a “special revelation” directly to me, that is not my claim. God has commanded the great commission and commands that the truth be proclaimed to all. We are to teach all nations, and this is what I am referring to. So, I am referring to what the Scriptures command when I say that God has sent me, because He has. “How can they preach except they be sent?” Again, try to read what I say in context.
I had no idea I would have to take such great pains to explain such obvious things as this. This may explain much of our miscommunication. I have assumed that you understand much of these kind of things. It is my fault, not yours. I am learning.
Lastly, I am terribly sorry that I am a poor communicator. I will try to do better. I am not claiming that everyone who says they are a member of Christ’s true church is in fact a Christian. That is part of my message, which I think I did already mention. We cannot be Christians by our own power. We must believe what God says about these and all other things, and we must be in subjection to that from a sincere heart. While you are correct in much of what He commands, He says many things about this, which are contrary to the teachings of Denominationalism and Roman Catholicism.
I am not claiming to know your hearts. I am saying that you hold to false teachings and therefore you cannot be saved. I am going by your claim of being a Methodist, or a Catholic. If, you believe all of the things I have said are necessary for salvation, then perhaps you are saved, and I am completely wrong. However, in that case you cannot be a member of a Denomination or Roman Catholicism, because you do not believe what they teach.
It is not my contention that I am better than you. You may be better than I in many things, I can learn a lot from those things, and I intend to. Nevertheless, here is the crux of the issue; you cannot save yourself by being a wonderful person. If a man tells a woman that he wants her to be his bride, but insists on a “proper” marriage as defined by him, and she is agreeable to being his wife, but refuses to marry him according to his appointed way, she is not and shall never be his bride. She may claim to be. She may walk around saying she is and calling herself by his name. She may sincerely believe that she is his bride, but she is not and cannot be. It does not matter how wonderful a woman she is. That is what I am trying to teach. The Denominations simply do not teach how to become Christ’s bride, or how to remain a faithful one. They teach many other good things, but they do not teach that. That is what you lack and what you need to be made perfect.
Peace.
JD: “I had no idea I would have to take such great pains to explain such obvious things as this.”
Ha… sorry I am such a dummy.
JD: “You may be better than I in many things,”
I am not claiming to be better or worse or angry or not…. I am claiming, that :
I believe in God the Father, maker of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ His only son … born of the Virgin Mary. He was crucified and died for my sins. I believe in the Holy Spirit. The trinity.
I believe in Sacred Scripture and hope to pattern my life after Jesus in all my thoughts, words and deeds. I believe it is import I spend as much time as possible in prayer and that when I do mess up in the live I can turn to my Father, confess my sin and I will be forgiven.
I stand on that. You say I can’t be any of those denominations and be saved. OK, you have said your piece. I hear you and as I said before I discredit you because You do not believe in the things I believe in. Like I said, I believe that perhaps on the small issues perhaps one day I will stand before the Lord and he will say ” You didn’t really have to kneel down to me all those years” then I will be like ok, I was wrong .(or whatever……) I find it very hard to believe though our God filled with Grace is going to send us to hell for the small things that maybe we didn’t get quite right. I think He will look at our hearts and how we loved him and how it affected those around us and how we wanted to know and be like His precious Son. Words from the Father lift up and exhort .
Good day
Dear Happy,
I am sorry if you thought that I was putting words in your mouth when I said that you may be better than I in many things. I was not intending to do that, my intent was to say that even IF you were a much better person than I, my point stands, because all of that is beside the point. I said this because it seems as though you think I am saying that I am better than you are and therefore I am saved and you are not. That could not be further from my message, and I want to be very clear on that.
Regarding you being upset about my saying that I didn’t know that I would have to take such great pains in explaining obvious things, you kinda asked for it. I mean, seriously, I am sure you know about the great commission and how God commands us to teach and exhort and rebuke daily, and how he sends preachers into the world. If I am correct, and you are aware of these things, then you used my statement of having been sent by God to teach those who may be willing to hear to suggest that I was claiming special revelation in a completely insincere way. You didn’t merely suggest it, you claimed that I said as much. That’s not cool.
However, if you truly are not aware of those things from God, then you really do not know the Bible nearly as well as I have assumed that you do, and in that case I am sorry for my statement. That is not intended as an insult. I do not mean to say that if you do not know the Bible you are a dummy. Some people just haven’t learned yet. If, however, it is true that you do not know the Bible very well, then it would not be wise for you to earnestly contend against the things I am saying, because you have no way of knowing if they are so. If that is the case, I would suggest listening, asking questions, and checking the Scriptures to see if what I am saying is so. But, I think you have made it clear that you do know the Bible fairly well.
I would also have you remember the woman who asked Jesus to cast a demon out of her daughter, to whom Jesus said that it is not appropriate to give the children’s bread to the little dogs. She did not say, I can’t believe you just said that to me. She said, “True, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table.” Jesus praised her for her faith. She was a humble woman. Why don’t we both try to be more like this woman, and seek to understand one another and learn something from one another?
What I find funny is you keep stating things like I am upset or I am angry…… I am nothing but somewhat amused. But much like my friends on this blog that is fading fast. You have made claims not meaning to insult anyone, but truly when you go on a Catholic blog, and make the statements about Catholics and Protestants in this world that you don’t even know, How honestly do you think these people are not going to be insulted. Your point? YOU have it all figured out and no one else does. Do you understand how you are coming off???? OK, we got it.
From happy: “Your point? YOU have it all figured out and no one else does.”
Clearly you are intentionally missing the point. I stated earlier that God’s Church is alive and well. This is an explicit statement that I am not alone in believing and obeying the Truth, so I am not saying that I am the only one who knows the truth. It seems that you are not sincerely trying to understand. You do not address the very serious issue of your leaders contradicting God, and you continue to focus on much less important issues of your being “offended” at my manner of speech and nit-picking those things, and intentionally misrepresenting my statements. I am going to ask you please to stop doing that and to take this more seriously. This is not an amusing situation any more than an execution is amusing. It is not just someone’s physical life at stake here, but it is his or her eternal soul.
I am going to ask you to love God in truth. I am not asking you to feel as though you love Him; you have already indicated that you do that. What I am asking is that you cease making this about how my statements are making you feel, and focus instead on how God feels when He says something clearly, and men who claim to be leaders of His Church contradict His plain commands. Think about how He feels when men and women look at what He says, and then look at what these men say, and conclude that these men are true! This is truly offensive! This is the core of my message, and it has been consistently so, contrary to all of what you attempt to make it seem that it is about.
Baptism is not sprinkling or pouring, since by both definition and biblical example, it is an immersion in water, and God clearly commanded baptism (Scripture verses later in paragraph). Infants cannot be candidates for baptism, since Mark says candidates must believe and Jeremiah prophesies of the New Covenant in 31:31-34, and teaches that in the New Covenant, there will be no need to teach anyone to know the Lord, because all will already know Him. Moreover, since it is by the gospel preached that men are to be saved when they hear, believe, repent, confess Jesus is the Lord, and be baptized in His name (Matt 28: 19; Mark 16: 15-16; Acts 2: 38; 8: 35-39; 22: 16; Rom 6: 3-6; Gal. 3: 27; Col. 2: 11-12; 1Pet. 3:20-21), we see that Jeremiah is true. Obviously then, infants are not candidates for baptism. A “confirmation,” which incidentally is also made up, is an indication that they know that the infant baptism is not efficacious. Furthermore, it is not even baptism since it is sprinkling or pouring. A man must be the husband of one wife in order to be a candidate for Bishopric (1Tim. 3:1-2). Women may not be Bishops or Pastors (1Tim 2: 8-3:7). It takes more than “believing only” to be saved. Denominationalism is not legitimate in God’s eyes, since men on the teachings of men founded them, and they all teach serious errors as they cling to their creed books.
The Old Testament is not our authority since according to the Old Testament, the priesthood is from Levi and it is evident that our High Priest, Jesus Christ, is from Judah, which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. The priesthood being changed makes necessary a change of the law, and to go back to the Law makes one a debtor to do the whole Law, and Christ will profit them nothing. We must read the Scriptures in context. I will not build an Arch to save myself from a worldwide flood, because God was speaking to Noah when He spoke those things. Likewise, He was speaking to the Israelites when He established the Old Testament covenant. If we read the Scriptures in context and rightly divide the Word of Truth, we see that the New Covenant is in effect, and it has caused the Old to pass away. Therefore, the New Testament covenant is our authority today. Much more could be said.
To whomever may be concerned:
The man that the Roman Catholic Church claims was the first Pope, Peter, wrote of the Apostle Paul, “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL, according to the wisdom given to him HAS WRITTEN TO YOU, as also IN ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES (2Pet. 3: 14-16).”
Peter makes ALL of Paul’s letters SCRIPTURES and warns that if you wrestle with (some versions say wrest) or twist the things Paul writes in his letters or that are in the rest of the Scriptures, you do so to your own destruction.
In Galatians 1: 6-9 Paul writes, “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you (establishes that men who could “legitimately” claim a lineage back to the Apostles were already going astray. Why not then the Catholic leaders?) in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but these are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. As we have said before, so now I say again, IF ANYONE preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
Clearly, that which the Apostle has already preached cannot at any time be altered because no man, not even an Apostle, and not even an angel from heaven can alter it. This passage of Scripture has been preached, therefore, it may not be altered. Furthermore, all other passages in the New Testament which come from the Apostles and Jesus has been preached and therefore they may not be altered. If anyone attempts to or has already done so, they are to be accursed.
In 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 this same Paul writes, “This is a faithful saying: if a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then MUST BE blameless, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;…”
This has been preached by the Apostle Paul, therefore, it is Scripture and cannot be altered. At this point I will let my brother Todd Clippard speak:
“While I am no Greek scholar, I do have some access to Greek tools and have given this some degree of study and consideration. What follows is the result of my preparations.
It is true that no imperative exists in the text of 1 Timothy 3:2, but there is a good reason for this… verbs in the imperative mood are given to be followed and realized by the hearer. They convey an action that must be obeyed or a state that must be entered into. In other words, imperatives take a person from one place to another. For example, in Acts 2:38, the hearers asked “What shall we do?” In response to this inquiry, Peter told them to repent and be baptized. Why? Because they had done neither. Thus, both repent and be baptized are imperatives that must be obeyed because they are not yet realized.
The verb translated “must be” in 1 Timothy 3:2 is a present active indicative. Whereas an imperative gives a command to fulfill what is lacking (e.g. repent and be baptized), the present active indicatives indicates the requirements that MUST ALREADY BE PRESENT AND CONTINUALLY POSSESSED BY THE CANDIDATE FOR BISHOP. In this usage, the indicative carries the same sense of obligation as an imperative. The text does not command men to possess the qualifications in the sense of not possessing them at the time, but rather demands the qualifications already be in possession by the candidate at the time of his appointment.
Hope this his helpful to you in your studies. Let me know if this clear and helpful. If not, I will do my best to clarify.
Take care and God bless.
Sincerely,
Todd Clippard
House to House – Heart to Heart”
Since the Roman Catholic Church refuses and has refused to allow their Bishops to marry by their Tradition, it is evident that the Roman Catholic Tradition is contrary to what God says. Who is true? If we look at what God says and then look at what these men say we see that they are opposites. If we conclude that the men who wrote and continue to teach the Tradition are true, we make God a liar. However, the Scripture says, “…for what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God of none effect? God forbid! But LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR… (Romans 3: 3-4)”
I hope you will decide to affirm that God is true. Thank you for your time and God bless your continued study.
JD: Clearly you are intentionally missing the point.
Happy: Well, it is not intentional. Please don’t reprimand me for your having “to take such great pains to point out the obvious.” as you have in the past.
JD:. I stated earlier that God’s Church is alive and well.
Happy: Good, we agree!!
You have to remember that we have ALL been commissioned by God. Contrary to you though I would not go on your denominations web page and tell everyone there that they are lost.
When Jesus was asked, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” he replied, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind’ – this is the great and foremost commandment, and there is a second like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’. The whole Law and Prophets hang on these two commands.” (Mtt 22:37-40, Mrk 12:28-34).
I had several advisement just to ignore you and yet, I have to wonder if you think you are doing any witnessing how you think you would reach anyone without the spirit in you: * Love
* Joy
* Peace
* Long suffering
* Kindness
* Goodness
* Faithfulness
* Gentleness
* Self-control
??????
I mean If I were not a Christian and you were trying to convince me I don’t think I would be witnessing anything that would woo me to a relationship with the Lord.
Thank you happy, for your comments, all of them. I am sure that they will help me to grow as a Christian. I am sorry if you feel as if I do not love you. I do love you, though not perfectly, as I endeavor to. I am certainly not perfect, and I apologize for my shortcomings. Perhaps you may ignore the messenger while accepting the message.
Remember, it is less about my love and more about how much God loves you, and He truly does. Nevertheless, He can only save you if you will choose to love the Truth. This is what He says over, and over again. Please trust Him! He cannot save you if you reject the Truth.
This is not because He is petty, but rather because He is perfectly holy, righteous, and immutable, so He will not compromise who He is to suit us! Because He is also Love, He has done everything He possibly can, even to the point of giving us His Son, but He will not compromise who He is. We must conform to His will. It is only by allowing Him to unite us with Jesus according to His appointed way that our debts to God may be “paid in full,” that we may be clothed with Jesus’ righteousness, and that Jesus’ inheritance may become ours. We cannot do this by our own will. How loving would I be if I failed to make clear to you the fact that you have yet to obey the gospel, and that you in fact earnestly contend against His truth?
This is so important to me because of my love for God and for you, but more important because of God’s love for us. You see, when the Jews who refused to hear Jesus claimed to be children of God, Jesus responded by telling them the truth that they were in fact children of the Devil, because they refused the truth. Jesus was not being mean or unloving. Jesus died for them so that they may have a chance to repent and live. It was important for Him to stand for the truth, in spite of the fact that it hurt their feelings. Remember that they took up stones to stone Him at that time. When certain of the scribes and Pharisees came to John the Baptist’s baptism, he referred to them as a brood of vipers as he asked them who warned them to flee from the wrath to come. He was not being unloving. He wanted them to repent in truth and to receive salvation, truth being the key word.
Neither am I being unloving. I am asking you to love God and His truth so that you will be able to rejoice with us in His Kingdom forever. I am not asking you to trust me or any other man. I am asking you to trust God, to look carefully into His gracious Word and hear Him, not to hear me. I do not matter. Indeed, there is hardly a more loving thing one may do than to teach someone the Word of God.
Please do not be pushed away by my poor delivery, do not let anything keep you from Him. Seek His truth and ensue it. Buy the Truth and sell it not. Do not heap to yourselves preachers preaching smooth things.
Please, know also that when I speak to people who do not claim to know the Scriptures or be teachers of His Word, I speak to them differently. However, when it comes to folks who claim to know and teach the truth, but instead earnestly contend against His plain teachings, I am a bit tougher, just as Jesus was. This is because I love Him and His truth more than I love anything else, I have a zeal for God, and I know that such people are leading men astray, whom I also love. That is a very serious crime, and it is unacceptable.
Additionally, no one among you who does love God requires wooing, he or she requires the truth. If they are a member of the Catholic Church or a denomination, they make it manifest that they lack truth, which they must have in order to be saved. If truth is offered to one who truly loves God, he or she will grab it up thankfully.
Furthermore, this is not about my mannerisms or me. If I have been wrong in how I have spoken to you, then I apologize and will do better in the future, but how do you determine that I am wrong, by your feelings? If my tone is stern, that is not the same as unloving. If what I have said is true, please hear it. If you still believe that what I have said is wrong, by what authority do you say so?
Lastly, I am not a member of a denomination; I am a member of Christ’s church, by his authority, not man’s, and He is not building a denomination.
Lastly, I am not a member of a denomination; I am a member of Christ’s church, by his authority, not man’s, and He is not building a denomination.
Joseph Duran
The Catholic Church is Christs Church founded by Christ himself upon Peter and it is the only Church which truly has apostolic succession and therefore authority, and all others are denominations from it. Your Non denomination is a denomination in itself, you reject authority by claiming the line of succesion goes directly from Christ to you.
Hello Mr. Scerpella,
I am sorry that I have not had the chance to give a thourogh answer to your comment. I have been extremely busy. I am sure that you are also, so I appreciate the time you have dedicated to this very important issue. Let me just say at this point that we both have rejected aurthority and we both have accepted authority.
Let me ask you a question. If the Scriptures are God’s Words and they command me to prove all things and to hold fast to that which may be proven good, and they clearly and explicitly authorize Bishops to marry, how can any man refuse a Bishop to marry? A second question might be, if men do refuse Bishops to marry, and these men claim authority because of a “line of succession” back to the Apostles, should we follow them in spite of the fact that they contradict the Apostles and in spite of the fact that the Apostles warned us that Bishops would fall away and lead many astray?
If the Word of God is the seed of the Kingdom, and by sowing it we may grow the Kingdom, should we instead sow the words of men who contradict the Word of God simply because they claim a “line of succession” that stems from the Apostles?
I may not bow to every authority. I must choose which authority I will subject myself to. I am a subject of the King, therefore I will follow His words. It does not matter what “line of succession” men may claim.
Thank you again for your time. I will try to elaborate more on these things soon.
Hello Mr. Scerpella,
I appreciate you bringing up a specific point of contention, quoting my statement on the matter, and making a clear claim of your own that I may address.
First, let me say that you have misunderstood my claim. I did not claim that a “line of succession” goes from Christ to me. This is a complete misunderstanding of Scriptures as well as my claim. You see, the authority is Christ’s. Jesus said, “All authority is given unto me, both in Heaven and on Earth.” Paul said, “Follow me, AS I FOLLOW CHRIST.” In short, if Paul fails to follow Christ, I am not to follow Paul, because I am to follow Paul in like manner, as he follows or does not follow Christ.
We see in Hebrews 9:16-17 that a testament is not in effect without the death of the Testator. Jesus has died, yet He lives, and therefore, His “last will and testament” as it were, is now in effect, and we do well to follow that. Even when the Apostles had a contention they settled it by looking to what the Holy Spirit had said and done in the past to settle it, they did not look to any man’s authority to change that (Gal. 2: 11-21; Acts 15: 6-29).
We ought to see clearly that the authority is always in Christ, therefore, I am obligated to follow His word and not that of any man. Bishops are called to lead the flock gently, by example, teaching the Truth, and going in the way that was established in the First Century. They do not have authority to make up their own way.
I will elaborate on these things soon. Until next time, I pray you will check the Scriptures daily to see whether these things are so, testing all things and holding fast to that which may be proven good. Do not simply trust anyone’s word, not mine, not that of the Catholic leaders, and not even that of an angel from heaven, but trust God’s Word only. Let God be true and every man be a liar.
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ [i.e., made us alive in Christ], (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” —Ephesians 2:4-8
JD:
I think when you look at the example of King David, it is obvious that God is more interested in the condition of our heart then you give Him credit. (David is just one example). I know we could banter back and forth forever and never see eye to eye, so I will say this and bow out.
I just don’t believe that you can judge God’s Grace and Mercy. I want to be able to extend that to all that I come across. Finally, I still agree with Mr. Scarpella. A group of people made up of thousands sounds like a denomination. I would think you have leaders, ???
people in place to make decisions even things like what ministries does your money help?!
Best Wishes.
I totally understand where you are coming from and why you feel this way, but please rethink your decision. Things are not quite the way they seem to you. Let me explain. Of course, God is interested in the condition of our hearts, God is not mocked, and He has not obligated himself to a situation that allows men to enter the Kingdom without a heart of true humility and love for God and His truth. If all we did were to obey Him mechanistically in a prideful way and without love, we would be as a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal (1 Cor. 13: 1-3). However, the rejection of His truth is a clear indication of the condition of one’s heart. Of the abundance of the heart a man speaks, and acts.
A living faith makes a sincere effort to obey all of God’s Word; else, it is a dead faith. The people who went out to be baptized by John testified that God was true (they justified God), but the Scribes and Pharisees who refused John’s baptism rejected the council of God against themselves, not being baptized of him (Luke 7: 29-30). These men obeyed much of God’s Word, but they rejected what they did not like. The part they obeyed did not make up for the part they willfully rejected.
In John 12:42-43 we see that many of the rulers believed in Jesus, but they would not confess Him. They refused to because they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. The Scripture clearly says that they believed, yet they loved men more than God. Who will argue that these men are saved? Therefore, “believing only” cannot save you.
Ephesians 2: 4-8, which you quoted, IS SPEAKING TO CHRISTIANS, people who have heard and obeyed the Truth, not to those who have not done so. It is immensely important for us to teach what God authorized us to teach regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ that men may become Christians in truth, according to the truth. If one believes and obeys from the heart that form of doctrine delivered to them (Romans 6:17), the verse you quoted may be speaking of them also, even you.
Furthermore, even some of those who had been saved were told that they had fallen from grace because they began to believe false teaching, and that Christ would profit them nothing if they did not repent of following false teachers (Galatians 5: 2-4). It is so important that we know, believe, and obey the Truth. False teachers are to be accursed, and we will not be saved is spite of rejecting the truth.
As far as me judging the grace and mercy of God, this is simply untrue. On the contrary, I am letting God reveal His mercy and grace to me. The things I have told you are things that He himself has said. You ignore certain things He has said while claiming to honor Him. You claim to honor Him by saying His grace is big enough to save you in spite of rejecting His truth. He says that it is impossible for you to be saved if you reject His truth.
We find that it is those whom reject the need to believe and obey God’s Word who have passed judgment on His grace and mercy by concluding that what He says concerning these things cannot be true because it is not good or loving enough. Nevertheless, what He says is true and good and loving (Rom 3: 3-4). He cannot save us if we reject Him because He is God and He is holy and just. If He could, He never would have allowed His precious Son to die since there would have been no need. He would have simply blown off our transgressions as if they were no big deal. This, however, would be contrary to His nature, which is one of holiness and justice.
Yet He made a way for us even though it cost Him His own Son, whom He loves far more than anyone or anything in existence. This is truly gracious and loving and it is very good! Only those who are united with Christ may have the remission of sins. Jesus is the only way. We must repent and cease rejecting Him and begin to obey Him from a sincere heart. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3: 9). These are the options, repent, or perish. His grace is forever and without bounds, however, all of His grace and mercy is in Christ Jesus. We must be members of His bride to be partakers of that grace and mercy with the saints. Only those whom obey what He says about this, according to His express desire, will be members of His bride. This is where that repentance leads by His will.
He said, “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7: 21).” He described a spectrum of people consisting of all those who call Him Lord, and from that spectrum of people, He specified those whom would enter the Kingdom. This spectrum of people includes those whom do not believe but call Him Lord for personal gain, those whom believe but do not obey such as demons, those whom think they love Him, but pick and choose what they will believe and obey such as false teachers and their followers, and those whom truly love Him by believing and sincerely attempting to obey all He says. Of the entire spectrum, the ones He says will enter into the Kingdom are those whom DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.
You mentioned David. David was not saved in a state of rebellion against God. He repented and God forgave Him. He did not reject what Nathan said to Him and insist that God would forgive him regardless of whether He repented and obeyed God or not. On the contrary, as he expressed his heart of REPENTANCE In Psalm 51, he said that he would teach sinners God’s ways. The Psalms, indeed all Scriptures, teach that God does not desire sacrifice but rather obedience. Disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft. Additionally, it is extremely important to note that David was already in a covenant relationship with God at the time of his transgressions and repentance. If he were not in a covenant with God it would have been necessary for him to do whatever was required in order to enter such a covenant, such as become circumcised or whatever else God said. I have been trying to teach mainly about how one enters into the New Covenant and secondarily how to remain in that covenant. They are of equal importance, but one comes before the other, and without it the other cannot be.
Lastly, Jesus is not building a denomination; He is building the true Church. If we look in the Bible, we see that the Word of God is the seed of the Kingdom. If we sow that in our hearts and love and obey it, the Kingdom will grow. Adherence to the vain doctrines of men will not grow the church. We follow God’s Word only rather than “creed books” as the denominations do. Moreover, the church I am a member of grows by sowing the Word of God and is the same as the true church clearly described in the Bible.