Why Can’t Women be Catholic Priests?



Q. Why can’t women be Catholic Priestesses?

A. Jesus’ choice to be born male was not accidental or arbitrary. First of all, in the sacrificial system of Israel the Sin Offering and the Passover Lamb were always perfect MALES. Other offerings could be either male or female but not the Passover Lamb or the Sin Offering. Therefore, since, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ fulfills all the sacrifices, but most especially the Sin offering and the Passover lamb HE was incarnated as a MAN. And, of course, God chose this pattern of male sacrificial animals in the OT in foreknowledge of the sacrifice of His Son.

Also, the people of God, both Israel and the Church, have always been imaged in sacred scripture as a Bride with God as the Bridegroom (Is 62:5 and Rev. 21:9). In the Catholic faith the priest acts in persona Christi (in the person of Christ) as Jesus celebrates the sacraments for His bride, the Church, through the actions of the male priest. The Church, as bride, is in a spousal relationship with Christ the bridegroom. This beautiful image culminates in the wedding feast of the Lamb at the end of time. This typology of the spousal relationship is fittingly imaged by the male priest. Priestesses or womenpriests would project another typology altogether but it would not be Holy Matrimony.

Q. Aren’t women second-class citizens in the Catholic Church?

A. Absolutely not. The most revered status in the Catholic Church is open to both men and women. Contrary to popular opinion the Pope, although highly honored is exceeded in honor by the Saints and the Doctors of the Church. There are hundreds of female saints. And, out of 33 Doctors of the Church, three are women. Also, the most highly honored human person (excluding Jesus) in the history of the Church is a woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

You can read more about the Priesthood…Here

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35 Responses

  1. First of all, Jesus’ did not have a choice to be born male because he is not the creator and it is only through God where he got his power. God cannot have a gender because he would be limited to it. The reason why Jesus’ was born a man was because back then governments/ societies were patriarchal and so it would be unlikely for men to follow a women who considered herself as the “savior of humanity”. Because women back then were educated, because they were the bread winners? Women were treated like subordinates and were not considered equal to men and werent given the same privileges men had. No man would follow a woman to learn more about life or about God when they believed God was a male figure.

  2. Dear Theresa,
    Jesus is God and all things were created though Him so He certainly did have a choice to be born male or female.

    God the Father is spirit and does not have a gender, as you say, but HE has chosen to be identified with maleness as in “Father”.

    You are mistaken if you think that God bows to human customs. He did not and Jesus did not.

    Men still do have a great tendency NOT to follow women, so it looks like God knew what He was doing by identifying with the male gender spiritually and as an incarnate MAN.

  3. God the Father indeed does not possess a gender, but how can you possibly argue that God has chosen to be identified with maleness? You cannot know the mind of God.

    Although Jesus referred to God as his “Father,” this does not indicate that God has chosen to be identified as male. It simply is how Jesus explained his human incarnation as God to his Apostles and disciples of the era.

    Also, a Passover sacrifice has nothing to do with the functions of being a priest. It is a religious rite.

    And of course Jesus was a man in that period due to a patriarchal society (hence why the Passover sacrifice was a male)! A man was considered to have power in said society, and therefore, a male lamb would have been the highest quality of sacrifice because its human counterpart was thought to above women. Like Theresa pointed out, how many at that time would have listened to a woman calling herself the Savior?

    As far as men not following women today goes, then explain to me how a great many women hold high-ranking government positions, including Condoleeza Rice and former prime minister of the United Kingdom, Margaret Thatcher?

  4. Q. God the Father indeed does not possess a gender, but how can you possibly argue that God has chosen to be identified with maleness? You cannot know the mind of God.

    A. There is a lot more evidence that HE has chosen to be identified with the male gender. We can only know the mind of God through His Spirit.

    Q. Although Jesus referred to God as his “Father,” this does not indicate that God has chosen to be identified as male. It simply is how Jesus explained his human incarnation as God to his Apostles and disciples of the era.

    A. I don’t follow that argument. There is no reason why God could not have been portrayed as female if HE had so desired. There were lots of female godesses in the ancient world and there still are.

    He also could have claimed no gender but HE did choose to be identified with maleness. And we are disrespectful not to accept this in all docility.

    Q. Also, a Passover sacrifice has nothing to do with the functions of being a priest. It is a religious rite.

    A. You are correct. My explanation lacked clarity. JESUS was the LAMB OF GOD slain at Passover. Therefore, HE is the fullfillment of the Passover Feast. And just like the Passover Lamb had to be perfect and male and be killed, and eaten and its blood was lifegiving–so Jesus is all of these.

    Q. And of course Jesus was a man in that period due to a patriarchal society (hence why the Passover sacrifice was a male)!

    A. This is merely your opinion supported by the zietgiest of our culture and nothing more. The God of the Universe, Creator of Heaven and Earth was not subject to the prejudices of people of any age. HE is all about TRUTH. And if it suited HIM to use primarily female typology and imagery He was able to do so in the service of Truth. The Passover Lamb of the OT was specifically to be male b/c God knew He would fulfill this by HIS SON in the NT era.

    Q. A man was considered to have power in said society, and therefore, a male lamb would have been the highest quality of sacrifice because its human counterpart was thought to above women.

    A. Actually, yes and no. A perfect male would have made a great stud for improving the flock. But, all you need is one good male b/c the females produce the lambs and that is where the increase in your flock comes. I don’t think society had anything to do with it.

    Q. Like Theresa pointed out, how many at that time would have listened to a woman calling herself the Savior?

    A. I fail to see why that would matter. Jesus was not exactly popular. His miracles could just as easily been done by a woman and would have gained her just as much credibility. You seem unable to see God as anything more than an extra powerful person.

  5. An atheist recently borrowed from my blog in making an argument for women priests, this started a debate between us.

    http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/discussion-with-an-atheist-on-women-priests/

  6. Thanks Father,

    I read this a while back. You did an excellent job making your case.

  7. Having grown up Catholic, I respect the church’s stand; however, I do believe that there are aspects that the Catholic church fails to consider. In the Bible, when Jesus rises from the tomb, it is to Mary Magdelene, not the men, to whom he appears. It is she, a woman, who first proclaims the Good News. If she was not worthy, wouldn’t Jesus have appeared to Peter first? My second comment is about a call to religious order. If a woman feels called to priesthood, is it your opinion that she is just mistaken — or that God could not call a woman? I have always believed that those called to minister — whether priest, minister, rabbi — received that call from God. Do you believe that only men know a “true” calling?

  8. Dear Lynn,
    The fact that Our Lord’s resurrection was first made known to women speaks of the great worthiness of women. God’s love extends to all His children. None of us is worthy of priesthood. Women are never called by God to be priests, not b/c they are not worthy but because in His wisdom priesthood is reserved for men just like childbearing is reserved to women. Both are worthy and noble callings.

    The greatest saint and most glorious human person is a woman,
    Holy Mary.

  9. I like the fact that women shouldn’t be priest. A priest to me means a Father Figure. If a woman is called to religious life why not embrace the life of a nun?
    I don’ t think I would like to go to confession to a female priest. The thought makes me feel extremely uneasy. I guess I’m old school I like things the way they are in our Church and I hope they never change. I’m sick of everyone trying to modernize everything. Why not just follow the rules and obey them rather than trying to bend them to suit one’s wants.

  10. I agree.

  11. Sorry for my very late response… 🙂 Just saw this post.

    In my studies of classical history and society, I found that the picture painted by people of a rigid patriarchal society is grossly oversimplified and not correct.

    During the first centuries of young Church, we see that women were not necessarily uneducated, even seeing women philosophy teachers. We also see that priestesses were around in many cults, and in heretical groups. In the social aspects, women exercised great influence as well compared to what we hear often told… one can see for example the powerful opponents people like Nestorius and St. Chrysostom faced.

    I think that people who claim that societal pressures mandated that God be conformed to them are not only limiting God’s omnipotence and omniscience, as has been stated, but are also being inaccurate in their historical appraisal, whether by mischievous design, ignorance, or disdain for history.

    I ran into an author that pretty much affirmed my appraisal, writing in his book much of what I had found, expanding on it with much detail and research. Fr. Manfred Hauke’s book, “Women in the Priesthood?”, is very recommendable for people that want another viewpoint on the historical effects on the Church and her resistance to women in the priesthood.

    For a limited preview of the book, you can check out:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=0qV-zmxTroAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=hauke+women&client=firefox-a&sig=ACfU3U0Srw9Ty9dMwMXBeG7oG4OyZbgyFw

    Peace,
    Anthony

  12. I think that this whole argument is about elivated status more than anything else. Its true purpose, is probably to get a female pope one day.

    Mother Theresa was/ is one of the greatest examples of how to live a Christian life.
    She was not a priest, neither did she complain about not being a priest. Instead she humbled herself and did what needed to be done.

    I see absolutely no reason for the church to bend over backwards to the whims and fancies of society. Jesus did not change his ways to suit the crowd, and neither should we. Is it not this same church that warns us to be ware of social trends ?

    Like I said, the church in no way disrespects women, Mother Theresa is one of our most iconic figures, there are countless famous women in the bible too.

    Its just that everyone has their place, man has his place, woman has her place, children have their place. The sooner society accepts that , the less complicated things will be.

  13. i read your answers to previous blogs and i think i must point out that ur knowledge on GOD is based on blind faith instead of reality!! you are disgracing an all powerful master like jesus by blaming him for things that he will never dreams to do!! i want you to explain what you say!! i am quoting u and telling u the facts!! use scriptures to answer my questions!! i want direct quotes rather than your feelings!! (HERE “YOU” ARE THOES PEOPLE WHOME I DISAGREE WITH) here goes:

    may 27th u had said:

    “There is a lot more evidence that HE has chosen to be identified with the male gender. We can only know the mind of God through His Spirit.”

    do YOU know the spirit or god’s plans?? IF NOT HOW CAN YOU SO SURELY SAY THAT HE HAS CHOSEN TO IDENTIFY WITH MALE GENDER???
    DID YOU EVER HEAR OF WOMEN SAINTS IN THE CHURCH WHO DID MIRACLES??? WERE THE MIRACLES NOT EXPRESSION OF GOD WITHIN THE WOMEN?? JESUS SAID “THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU” AND DID NOT THE KINGDOM DISPLAY ITS POWER THROUGH THE WOMEN SAINTS?? HOW MUCH ABOVE A MALE PRIEST IS A WOMEN SAINT?? DID THE WOMEN SAINTS BECAME LESSER THAN THE MALE PRIESTS BECAUSE OF THEIR SEX??
    god helped the poor through MOTHER THRESA!! ..MOTHER MARY was an enlightened WOMAN and SHE was used by the spirit AND THE POWER OF GOD HAD DECENDED ON HER!!
    GOD HAS NO SEX AND WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD. THEN ARE YOU ACCUSING GOD OF DISCRIMINATE AGAINST HIS OWN CREATION IE. WOMEN?? EVERY WOMEN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE A PRIESTESS AND ALSO A POPE!! JESUS HIMSELF HAD A GROUP OF CLOSE WOMEN FOLLOWERS!! AND WHY WAS JESUS A MAN?? I WILL COME TO THAT AS PER YOUR POINTS…

    YOU QOUTED:

    I don’t follow that argument. There is no reason why God could not have been portrayed as female if HE had so desired. There were lots of female godesses in the ancient world and there still are.

    ARE YOU SAYING THAT GOD IS A MAN?? HOW CAN U CALL A BEING MAN OR WOMAN WITHOUT A BODY?? OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT GOD HAS A BODY NOW A DAYS OR THAT JESUS AND GOD ARE NOT TWO BUT THE SAME PERSON?? JESUS HIMSELF SAID “THE FATHER IS GOOD” NOT ” I AM GOOD”. HE ALWAYS STRESSED THAT THEY BOTH WERE DIFFERENT IDENTITIES (son and father),THE FATHER BEING ALL MIGHTY!! THEY BOTH WERE ONE IN SPIRIT!! SO WHY “FATHER”?? SIMPLY BECAUSE HE LOVED THE CONCEPT OF GOD AS DIVINE FATHER(A FATHERS CAN LAY HIS LIFE FOR HIS CHILDREN ON EARTH…HOW MUCH more THE DEVINE FATHER CAN DO(LOVE WE “GODS CHILDREN) IF HUMAN FATHERS CAN LOVE SO MUCH) !! IT DOES NOT IMPLY GOD IS A MAN(NO BODY -NO MAN) !! IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THE FATHER CONCEPT APPEALED MOST TO JESUS…

    WHEN JESUS SPOKE OF FORGIVNESS HE WAS TALKING OF GOD IDENTIFYING WITH THE FEMININ SIDE OF HIS CREATION!! LOVE,FORGIVNESS AND OTHER FEMININE TRAITS ARE THE DEVINE GOD’S FEMALE ASPECTS …THE STERNESS..RETRIBUTIONS..ANGER ARE THE FATHERLY SIDE OF GOD!! “WORD “MALE” IS MALE EMOTION AND FEMALE IS FEMALE EMOTIONS…GOD HAS BOTH AND HE HAS NO SEX!!

    AND GOD NEVER TOLD CHRIST TO CALL HIM FATHER. CHRIST LOVINGLY DID SO. SO GOD DID NOT CHOOSE MALENESS.HOW CAN HE WHEN HE CREATED FEMALES AND WOMEN SAINTS AND DO MIRACLES VIA THEM??OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT GOD MADE EXCEPTIONAL MISTAKES IN EXPRESSING HIS(THE IMPERSONAL PRONOUN) POWER THROUH WOMEN SAINTS??

    A LITTLE BACK U WROTE:

    . First of all, in the sacrificial system of Israel the Sin Offering and the Passover Lamb were always perfect MALES. Other offerings could be either male or female but not the Passover Lamb or the Sin Offering. Therefore, since, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ fulfills all the sacrifices, but most especially the Sin offering and the Passover lamb HE was incarnated as a MAN. And, of course, God chose this pattern of male sacrificial animals in the OT in foreknowledge of the sacrifice of His Son.

    FIRSTLY PLEASE QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES WORD BY WORD WHERE IT IS MENTIONED THAT :

    “God chose this pattern of male sacrificial animals in the OT in foreknowledge of the sacrifice of His Son.”

    JESUS DIED FOR THE FORGIVNESS OF SINS OF ALL OTHERS?? IF JESUS WAS IN A FEMALE BODY WOULD THE SACRIFICE BE LESS WORTHY BECAUSE THE SOUL OF JESUS WAS IN A FEMALE BODY THAN A MANS?? WHERE DOES THE POWER AND QUALITIES OF A PERSON LIE?? THE SOUL OR THE BODY( WHICH DIES AND DECAYS IN THE GRAVE)?? I DO NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE MALE BODY WHICH MAKES IT MORE WORTHY OF SACRIFICE?? IF U SACRIFICE A WICKED SOUL BUT IN A MALE BODY WOULD GOD ACCEPT SUCH A SACRIFICE?? THE REASON WHY A MALE LAMB WAS SACRIFICED IS THAT A FEMALE LAMB MIGHT HAVE HAD LTTLE LAMBS TO CARE FOR. GOD KEEPING IN MIND THE NEED OF A MONTHER WANTED A MALE TO BE SACRIFICED INSTEAD OF A FEMALE WHICH MIGHT HAVE CAUSED THE LITTLE ONES TO DIE. OUR SCRIPTURES HAVE MORE LOGIC AND LOVE THAN YOUR BLIND EXPLNATIONS.GOD IS NOT WHIMSICAL AND FOLLOWS LOVE AND LOGIC IN EVERY WORD!!

    BACK TO YOUR SAYINGS ON 27TH BLOG:

    JESUS was the LAMB OF GOD slain at Passover. Therefore, HE is the fullfillment of the Passover Feast. And just like the Passover Lamb had to be perfect and male and be killed, and eaten and its blood was lifegiving–so Jesus is all of these.

    WELL HE WAS COMPARING HIS SACRIFICE WITH THE PASSOVER (WHICH HELPED IN ATONEMENT OF SINS) IN THE CONTEXT OF THE POINT THAT HIS SACRIFICE WOULD ALSO ATONE FOR THE SINS OF HIS BELIVERS!! WHERE ONCE IN THE BIBLE DID HE MENTION THAT HIS MALENESS WAS A MUST TO BE SACRIFICED?? PLS QUOTE!! HE COMAPRED WITH THE PASSOVER SACRIFICE AS THE RESULT OF THE SACRIFICE WAS THE SAME BUT IN A MILLION TIMES GREATER WAY(FORGIVNESS OF SINS) !! HOW CAN U COMPARE WHAT APPLIES TO AN LOWLY ANIMAL TO THAT OF WHAT APPLIES TO JESUS..THE EVER LOVING BEAUTIFUL MASTER OF ALL TIMES AND SON OF GOD!!

    U SAID :

    This is merely your opinion supported by the zietgiest of our culture and nothing more. The God of the Universe, Creator of Heaven and Earth was not subject to the prejudices of people of any age. HE is all about TRUTH. And if it suited HIM to use primarily female typology and imagery He was able to do so in the service of Truth. The Passover Lamb of the OT was specifically to be male b/c God knew He would fulfill this by HIS SON in the NT era.

    YOU YOURSELF SAID THAT “Men still do have a great tendency NOT to follow women, so it looks like God knew what He was doing by identifying with the male gender spiritually and as an incarnate MAN.”

    WOULD GOD BE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO SEND JESUS IN A FEMALE FORM AND TRY AND PREACH WHEN HUMANITY AT HIS TIME WAS STOOPED IN DARKNESS -A RESULT OF WHICH WAS SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN?? MAN WAS IN HIS TRUE ELEMENTS..BODILY POWER RULED..GOD WAS FORGOTTEN…SO WOMEN SUFFERED AS THEY COULD NOT PHYSICALLY FIGHT BACK!! GOD WANTED TO FIRST BRING MANKIND TOWARDS HIMSELF AND TRYING TO DO SO WITH A FEMALE BODY(OF JESUS) WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT AS THE MIND SET WAS LIKE THAT(THE MISSION OF JESUS WAS TO UPLIFT MANKIND AND NOT FIGHT FOR FEMALE RIGHTS AS HE KNEW THAT AS MANKING WOULD GO TOWARDS GOD EVENTUALLY IT WILL MAKE WOMEN EQUAL AS GOD HAD PLANNED.)..SO AFTER UPLIFTING MANKING THROUGH CHRIST ,GOD HAS NOW SET HIS SIGHTS ON MAKING HIS OTHER PART OF CREATION WHICH IS BY FAR MORE BEAUTIFUL IN NATURE (THE OTHERHALF BEING NO LESS BEAUTIFUL IN GODS EYES) .!! HE WILL MAKE WOMEN PRIESTS AND WILL BREAK THE VERY MALE IMPOSED BARRIER!! ..

    GOD HAS JUSTICE IN HIS MIND….WHEN A GIRL FEELS SAD BECAUSE OF INEQUALITY IT IS NOT GOD BUT MAN WHO HAS MADE HER SO WITH HIS IMPOSED RULES…SO THE FIRE OF GOD HAS SPARKED UP AND NOW THE CRIES OF A MILLION WOMEN WHO WANTS TO BE RECOGNISED AS GODS CREATION IN EQUAL TERMS HAS MADE HIM WAKE UP!! LOOKAROUND YOU,,,WOMEN HAVE STARTED TO REGAIN HER STATUS AS EQUALS IN GODS CREATION!! HIS PLANS ARE WORKING AND CAN SOME LOWLY MEN STOP THE UNLIMITED POWER OF GO JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE INTERPRETED THE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR OWN WAY???

    PLEASE MENTION ONCE WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES HAS JESUS GIVEN A DIRECT ORDER BARRING WOMEN FROM PRIEST HOOD?? BUT I AM SURE TO SEE U PRODUCE SUCH AN ORDER FROM THE MALE PRIESTS!! BUT HAS GOD SPOKEN OR MAN SPOKEN??

    LASTLY: U SAID

    Its just that everyone has their place, man has his place, woman has her place, children have their place. The sooner society accepts that , the less complicated things will be.

    WHO HAS GIVEN THE PLACES?? MAN HAS GIVEN TO WOMEN. NOT GOD!!

    GOD MADE ALL EQUAL…man MADE HIS CREATION BAD BY HIS IDEAS!!! SOULS haVE no sex!! SO WHY LET THE OUTER BODY DECIDE WHO GETS WHAT WHEN TRUE QUALITY IS WITHIN…”THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU”….

    I AM NOT REDICULING OR FIGHTING,….I WANT HONEST RESON FILLED ANSWERS IF U CAN PROVIDE ONE…MY ESTEEM OF THE MASTER CHRIST IS GREATER THAN MY LOVE FOR SELF…SO MIND YOU …I AM A LOVER OF CHRIST SPEAKING!! …

    let love permiate every soul to make it more beautiful!!

  14. The first part of my response to this very long comment is HERE

    My 2nd response is HERE

  15. My response is HERE

  16. TO WHOEVER HAS REMOVED 21ST NOV BLOG:

    ….i thought that this place was a place where people can discuss openly about their faiths and beleifs. I SEE THAT MY NOVEMBER 21 ST POST DOES NOT APPEAR HERE AND YOU HAVE LINKED A RESPONSE WHICH HAS NO SENSE TO WHAT I HAD SAID!! IF U BELEIVE IN FAIR PLAY THN I WOULD REQUEST YOU TO LET PEOPLE READ ALL POSTS FROM ALL PEOPLE AS ,IF FAITH IS SO FRAGILE THAT IT CAN BE BROKEN BY MERE WORDS, THEN IT IS A SIGN OF WEAK FAITH!! BHFU’S NOV 14TH POST HAD SOME POINTS WHICH OPENLY SHOWED HOW WOMEN ARE NEGATIVELY POTRAYED !! I WROTE A LOGICAL POST QUESTIONING CERTAIN NOTIONS!! U HAD MY POST REMOVED AND BHFU’S POST STILL SHOWS!! MOST READERS WILL BE DECEIVED TO THINK THAT I LEFT AFTER SUBMITTING TO THOES NEGATIVE COMMENTS!! FOR THE SAKE OF FAIR PLAY LEAVE ALL POSTS AT ITS OLD PLACE!!

    BY THE WAY BHFU IF YOU ARE NOT THE OWNER OF THIS BLOG AND DOER OF THIS DEED THEN PLEASE ACCEPT MY HEARTFELT APLOGIES ….

    .BUT I WILL RE-POST ONLY THOES PLACES WHERE I HAD QUESTIONED YOUR CALL ON WOMEN….THE REST (WHO EVER HAS REMOVED POSTS). IF YOU BELEIVE IN FAIR PLAY..THEN U MUST ALLOW ALL LOVERS OF CHRIST TO SPEAK THEIR MIND AND NOT REMOVE THEM IF YOU DONT FEEL LIKE ANSWERING.(I DONT MIND IF PEOPLE DONT ANSWER AND KEEP THE POSTS AS IT IS)….IT WAS SHAMEFUL AND DECEITFUL TO REMOVE AND LINK TO A REPLY,THE VERY ONE I HAD QUESTIONED!!!

    REGARDING WOMEN I HAD POSTED THIS ON 21 ST:

    BFHU: No. God could have done it all differently. We simply submit in humility to His plan and the way He chose, by His sovreign will, to do all that He did.

    NO SHYING AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT WE DECIDE WHAT GOES ON ON EARTH(GOD OUT OF LOVE TRIES FIRST TO REASON WITH US…GUIDE US,.,,,SEND SAINTS..AND IN EXTREAM CASES REVEALS HIS WARTH AND ACTS DIRECTLY–VERY VERY RARE…WE LIVE A MAX OF 100 YEARS…TO GOD IT IS NOT MUCH ..IS IT??) …GOD BY YOUR LOGIC COULD HAVE STOPPED WOMEN GETTING SIDELINED(HE WAITED FOR MAN TO CHANGE AND LOOK AROUND… THE WORLD HAS CHANGED)
    HE ALSO COULD HAVE STOPPED WARS ….UNJUST KILLING OF INNOCENTS…CHILDREN …EVERYTHING….WHY DOES HE NOT?? AS HE WANTS MAN TO REALISE HIS MISTAKES AND CHANGE HIMSELF…HE IS NOT A DICTATOR .HE RARELY APPEARS ON TELEVISION TO SAY WE ARE ORDERED TO DO SO AND SO..THUS MY POINT IS …IF SOCIETY WAS DEFIANT TO FOLLOW A WOMAN …GOD CHOOSE TO INCARNATE CHRIST IN A MALE BODY TO SUIT THE TIMES….AND HE KNEW HIS TEACHINGS WILL MAKE MAN MORE GODLY …GODLY ENOUGH TO PROGRESS AND CIVILIZE MAN…AND THUS WOMEN GREW AS SOUL AND MIND QUALITIES RATHER THAN BODY POWER WAS LOOKED UPON TO LEAD A NATION…OFFICE ETC…GOD’S PLAN CLICKED!! AND DID HE NOT MAKE MEN AGAINST WOMENS PROGRESS SHUT UP…

    BFHU: That is the customary feminist theory but it is a mere chariacture of society. But leaving that aside you ideas leave out the power of God to do ANYTHING He choses to do. Are you saying that the power of God was limited by human prejudice? That God was impotent to overcome prejudice by His Grace working in the heart ?

    BY YOUR LOGIC THEN GOD COULD TAKE ALL THE JOBS OF THE POLICE AND MILITARY…..GOD ACTS THROUGH PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLIN TO SUBMIT THEIR WILLS TO HIM AND DO HIS WORK WILLINGLY….HE IS NO DICTATOR AND WORKS THROUGH LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP…GODS GRACE WORKS ONLY WITH THOES FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEVOTED THEIR LIFE TO KNOWING HIM…THE ENTIRE SOCIETY IS NOT INFLUENCED. AND GOD LETS MANKIND LEARN FROM ITS MISTAKES (SUFFERING FOR WRONG DEEDS —-ARE NOT THE NATIONS WHERE WOMEN PLAY A EQUAL ROLE IN SOCIETY FAR MORE DEVELOPED THAN OTHER COUNTRIES) RATHER THAN APPEARING OUT OF THE SKY AND POINTING SINS….THE REASON OF CAUSE AND EFFECT…REAP WHAT YOU SOW IS A TOOL OF GOD….SO IF GOD WANTED HE CAN DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE MAN BOW AT HIS FEET IN A SECOND ..BUT IS THAT A DIGNIFIED THING TO DO?? TO BEG OUR LOVE….HE LETS LOVE WORK AND WAITS FOR MAN TO CHANGE,,,,,HE RARELY INTERVENES AS HE HAS GIVEN US A CHOISE….DO RIGHT OR WRONG….SO HE USED A MALE BODY OF JESUS TO SERVE HIS WILL,….THATS ALL!! SO SINCE JESUS WAS MALE ..THE PRIESTS ARE MALE IS A BIG FLAWED LOGIC!!

    BFHU:….or people filling her head with imagined slights and assertions of inequality. The feminist movement (NOW) had noble ideals at first but they got off track.

    NOW- women are mere sex objects for men…in bed, in porn, in movies, in ads, even in marriage.

    (ONLY MEN WITH A UNGODLY ATTITUDE AND A FAILURE TO REALISE THEMSEVES AS SOULS WILL TREAT WOMEN AS SEX OBJECTS…IN BED THE MEN ARE EQUALLY GOOD SEX OBJECTS TO WOMEN AS THE PLEASURE IS BOTH EBDED…IN PORN WATCHED BY WOMEN THE “MAN” IN THE PORN IS ALSO A REALLY NICE SEX OBJECT TO WOMEN WHO SEE IT …IN ADS OF “FEMALE MARKETS PRODUCTS” MEN ARE USED TO ATTRACT WOMEN AND IN MENS THINGS WOMEN ARE USED TO ATTRACT MEN AND OVERALL WOMEN BECAUSE OF THEIR BEAUTY ARE USED TO GIVE A TOUCH OF BEAUTY TO PRODUCTS OR TO MAKE PEOPLE STARE AT THE SCREEN…SO NO SEX OBJECT..IN MOVIES AS FAR AS I REMEMBER I SEE MEN ROAMING NAKED TOO!! AND THOES IN MARRAIGE WHO LOOK UPON WOMEN AS SEX OBJECTS ARE NOT RIGHT WITH GOD!! CHEATING WIVES ALSO LOOK UPON MEN OUTSIDE MARRAIGE TO SATISFY THEMSELVES AND USING HUSBANDS AS ANOTHER SEX OBJECT FOR MONEY

    NOW women murder their children before they are even born.

    MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT IT IS MUCH KINDER TO LIBERATE A SOUL SO THAT IT CAN GO TO A NEW BODY WHERE AT BIRTH IT WILL BE LOVED THAN TO BRING IT TO EARTH WHERE IT WILL BE ABUSED IF UNLUCKY AND GROW UP WITH A PSHYCOLOGICAL SCAR….ABORTION AT AN EARLY STAGE IS JUST DESTROYING A MASS OF CELLS WITH NO BRAINS AND THE DEATH IS PAINLESS AS THERE IS NO PROPER NERVOUS SYSTEM TO REGISTER THE PAIN…AND EVEN IF IT IS …THE CONCIOUSNESS HAS NOT YET COME IN TO FEEL….SO IT IS A MILLION TIMES MORE SINLESS THAN TO GIVE LIFE TO A SOUL WHICH YOU ARE BOUND TO GIVE LOVE TO BY GOD. AND DONT TAKE CARE OF IT…A SOUL IS INSIDE…THAT IS TRUE….BUT TILL BIRTH OR A LATE STAGE OF PREGNANCY THE SOUL DOES NOT POSSES THE BODY “FULLY” AS IT IS NOT CONSIOUS OF THE BODY ,MADE POSSIBLE BY NERVOUS SYSTEM AND BRAIN(I KNOW BIOLOGY) .SO IN EFFECT ABORTION IS NOT EVEN NEAR TO MURDER.ITS A MERCY AND JUSTIFIED AND HONEST THING TO DO BUT CARRYING THE AMOUNT OF SIN EQUAL TO NOT WELCOMING A SOUL AFTER YOU CALL IT…BUT THAT IS NOT A GURANTEE TO A TICKET TO HELL !!

    NOW women have to work to make ends meet

    WHATS THE BIG DEAL….WOMEN BY NO MEANS ARE MEANT TO BE TAKEN CARE OF BY MEN….MAN PREACHED THIS CONCEPT AND IT WAS REQUIRED WHEN BODILY STRENGTH WAS NEEDED TO SURVIVE ..BUT NOW ITS NO LONGER REQUIRED…ITS SO DIGNIFIED TO WORK AND LIVE LIFE FULLY…DOES NOT MEN DO SO ALSO? I DONT GET YOUR POINT HERE…

    NOW women live in poverty b/c of increased out of wedlock children

    WELL MEN ARE AS MUCH TO BLAME FOR TEMPTING AND LACK OF USING CONTRACEPTIONS..ITS JUST THAT WE MEN DONT HAVE TO CARRY A BABY EVERY TIME WE ENJOY SEX…..THUS GOD MADE MAN INVENT CONTRACEPTIONS AND OTHER MEDICAL AIDS…

    NOW women are divorced easily when men tire of them
    IF YOU DONT KNOW HALF THE CASES ARE FILED BY WOMEN…SO MEN ARE GETTING LAID TOO IF WOMEN GET TIRED OF THEM

    NOW more women have grown up in fatherless homes etc

    MEN LEFT SADLY…AND MOMMY CARES STILL….TO ALL SINGLE MOMS…GOD IS WITH YOU AND WILL REWARD YOU GREATLY FOR EXPRESSING GOD’S GREATEST QUALITY …LOVE

    BFHU: And are you not interpreting scriptures in your own way? ………….ETC

    THE CHURCH HAS DONE SO AND HAD TO GO BACK ON MANY OF ITS OWN WAYS AS SCIENCE PROVED BEYOND DOUBT THAT THEY WERE WORNG(I AM NOT AGAINST ANY CHURCH…ITS A GOOD THING THAT PEOPLE COME TOGETHER IN NAME OF GOD)…AMEN…ITS JUST TO POINT THAT MEN UNDER CHURCH TAKES TO INTERPRETNG SCRIPTURES….A BRAIN OF MAN WORKS!! NOT GODS OWN MIND WHICH IS FOOL PROOF!!

    CHRIST LOVER-PLEASE MENTION ONCE WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES HAS JESUS GIVEN A DIRECT ORDER BARRING WOMEN FROM PRIEST HOOD??

    BFHU: This is explicit in His practice. “He who has eyes, let him see and ears, let him hear.“

    NOT IN JESUS’S PRACTICE BUT IN MANS PRACTICE.

    NO ACT OF CHRIST EVER BARRED WOMEN..PLESE SAY WHAT HE DID??

    AND DO APOLOGISE WHO EVER REMOVED THE POSTS….IT WAS HORRIBLE TO DO SO AT A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN FREELY SPEAK THEIR MINDS!!! PLEASE MENTION OTHERWISE IF THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT!! AND MY COMPARISION OF THE PASSOVER LAMB AND CHRIST….WAS IT NOT SOMETHING THAT OTHER BELEIVERS SHOULD HAVE READ??? FAITH WITHOUT TEST IS “BLIND FAITH” IF YOU ARE SURE THAT ALL PEOPLE BELEIVE, THEN WHY FEAR QUESTIONING??? IF BHFU IS NOT THE DOER OF THIS THEN EVEN HE WILL SUPPORT ME IN MY FAIR PLAY CONCEPT!! SHAMEFUL ACT IT WAS TO MOVE MY BLOG-WHOEVER DID SO!!…

  17. Christ Lover
    I was not trying to remove your post. I was trying to debulk the comment section and rather that leave your comments buried here post it along with my comments.

  18. From Christ Lover…”MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT IT IS MUCH KINDER TO LIBERATE A SOUL SO THAT IT CAN GO TO A NEW BODY WHERE AT BIRTH IT WILL BE LOVED THAN TO BRING IT TO EARTH WHERE IT WILL BE ABUSED IF UNLUCKY AND GROW UP WITH A PSHYCOLOGICAL SCAR….ABORTION AT AN EARLY STAGE IS JUST DESTROYING A MASS OF CELLS WITH NO BRAINS AND THE DEATH IS PAINLESS AS THERE IS NO PROPER NERVOUS SYSTEM TO REGISTER THE PAIN…AND EVEN IF IT IS …THE CONCIOUSNESS HAS NOT YET COME IN TO FEEL….SO IT IS A MILLION TIMES MORE SINLESS THAN TO GIVE LIFE TO A SOUL WHICH YOU ARE BOUND TO GIVE LOVE TO BY GOD. AND DONT TAKE CARE OF IT…A SOUL IS INSIDE…THAT IS TRUE….BUT TILL BIRTH OR A LATE STAGE OF PREGNANCY THE SOUL DOES NOT POSSES THE BODY “FULLY” AS IT IS NOT CONSIOUS OF THE BODY ,MADE POSSIBLE BY NERVOUS SYSTEM AND BRAIN(I KNOW BIOLOGY) .SO IN EFFECT ABORTION IS NOT EVEN NEAR TO MURDER”.

    Christ Lover,I will share this with all of my friends and family who were adopted and brought up in wonderful loving homes. Some how I don’t think they will see it your way. And yes, abortion is murder at any point. That is not just a Catholic view point …it is a Christian view.

  19. You can see my horrified response HERE–>Abortion is a Mercy?

  20. bfhu, unfortunately, I can’t open it.
    Am I the only one?
    Blessings,

  21. DEAR BHFU….
    IN CASE YOU HAD REMOVED THE POST TO SOME OTHER PLACE THEN PLEASE CAN U MAKE IT EASIER FOR ME AND OTHERS TO FIND THEM.(I CANNOT LOCATE MY POST AS YET SO FAR)…IF POSSIBLE CAN YOU PLEASE LINK TO MY NOV 21 ST POST AS SOMEONE MIGHT COMMENT AND I MAY LOOSE ALL TRACK!! ITS ONLY ONCE IN A WHILE MOST PEOPLE CAN GET TIME 2 CHECK IN YOU SEE!!
    NO HARD FEELINGS BYDAWAY!! 🙂
    AND UR DECEMBER 3 RD REPLY IS NOT SHOWING…ITS SAYING “SORRY IT COULD NOT BE FOUND HERE”…SOMETHING LIKE THIS…..

    AS FOR HAPPY,
    WELL….I AM SO HAPPY FOR ALL THOES WHO FIND WONDERFUL HAPPY HOMES WHERE THEY FIND ALL THE LOVE THAT A SOUL CAN EVER CRAVE FOR…I MYSELF HAVE FRIENDS WHO WERE ADOPTED …BUT THESE SOULS WHO WERE ADOPTED ARE SADLY NOT THE MAJORITY…

    FIRSTLY:

    ABORTION IS NOT MURDER WHEN USED TO “PREVENT” ABONDONING THE CHILD AT BIRTH.(AS IN MANY DEVELOPING AND 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES DUE TO LACK OF SEX EDUCATION WHERE PREGNANCIES HAVE TAKEN PLACE)

    SECONDLY:

    I ALSO FEEL WHEN A GENTIC OR CONGENITAL SEVERE DESEASE HAS BEEN FOUND IT IS MOST APT TO ABORT THAN TO BRING A SOUL WITH A MAIMED BODY EVEN AFTER KNOWING SO. WHY LET A SOUL GET A SEVERE DEFORMED BODY IF ABORTION GIVES IT A CHANCE TO HAVE A NEW PERFECT ONE?? I DEEPLY LOVE AND GREATLY RESPECT ALL PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES WHO HAVE FAUGHT IN LIFE TO BECOME HEROS(AND AM HAPPY THAT THEY CAME ON EARTH TO SHOW US HOPE) !! BUT SOME OF THE MORE SEVERELY AFFECTED SUFFER A LOT. FOR ONLY THESE CATAGORY AND ONLY THIS CATAGORY I SEE NO REASON AS TO WHY NOT PREVENT IT ?IF THE PARENTS THINK THEY CANNOT TAKE THE SPECIAL CARE NEEDED THEN WHY LET A SOUL SUFFER??!!! (BUT IF YOU ARE SPIRITUAL ENOUGH YOU WILL REALIZE THAT IF A SOUL HAS THE DESTINY TO LEARN SOMETHING BY FIGHTING PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS THEN NO ABORTION WILL PREVENT IT FROM GETTING A PHYSICAL DEFORMATION IF GOD WANTS SO!! OFTEN THESE LIMITATIONS TEACH THE SOUL TO FIGHT AND SEE LIFE IN A GREATER WAY.THESE ARE COMPLEX SPIRITUAL TOPICS NOT MEANT TO BE SPOKEN OF IN BLOGS ANYWAY!!) .

    ALSO IT PAINS ME TO THINK OF THE THOUSANDS IN THE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES WHO WERE UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO BE LEFT TO DIE…I READ A HORRIFYING STORY WHERE A ABONDONED BABY WAS KILLED BY STREET DOGS…AND YET SOME DIED BECAUSE OF THE NIGHT COLD..AND YET SOME WE LEFT IN THE GARBAGE DUMP TO DIE…I READ ALL THESE AND AM NOT MAKING THESE UP..THIRD WORLD AND DEVELOPING COUNTRIES HAVE A HUGE NUMBER OF SUCH CASES. MANY MANY LITTLE CHILDREN ARE FORCED INTO BEGGING AND PROSTITUTION AS THEY HAVE NO ONE TO PROTECT(AND WERE BORN DUE TO LUST AND NO ABORTION FACILITIES OR WERE BORN TO PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT ABORTION SHOULD BE AVOIDED TO SAVE OWN SKIN FROM GOD-WARTH BUT FELT ABONDONING WAS OK. POVERTY ALSO PLAYS A BIG BIG ROLE AS TO WHY CHILDEREN ARE ABONDONED AT BIRTH AND LACK OF SEX-ED OFCOURSE) ..ALL THESE ARE ORGANISED CRIMES AND MANY GOVERMENTS JUST TURN A BLIND EYE…..AND WHEN I MEAN LIFE ..I ALSO MEAN QUALITY LIFE!! IS IT WORTH LIVING WHILE BEGGING AND SEEING DRUG ADDICTS AROUND?? NO EDUCATION….FILTHY BROUGH….OR SEE PEOPLE FIGHT AND KILL IN THE STREETS AND SHIVER IN THE COLD??? I DREAM TO HELP THE POOR ONE DAY…SO I KNOW ALL THIS BY WATCHING SILENTLY FOR SOO LONG…THE POOR CHILDREN DO NOT GET DOCTORS OR MEDICINES IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD..ONLY GOD VIA OTHER KIND PEOPLE LOOK AFTER THEM IN SUCH DISTRESS….UNFORTUNATELY ONLY EUROPE AND MOST WESTERN COUNTIRES HAVE CHILD ADOPTION CENTERS AND NO ONE IN THEIR WILDEST DREAMS CAN IMAGINE TO LEAVE A CHILD TO DIE…..but not so in the other developing parts.(I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION THAT THE OBSESSION WITH MALE CHILDS IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE WORLD LEAD TO ABORTION OF THE GIRL CHILD—THAT IS RAW,UNFORGIVABLE MURDER WITH HIGH PUNISHMENT FROM GOD!! AS YOU WERE READY TO BRING THE SOUL BUT REJECTED ON GENDER…THAT AND ANY SUCH REASON IS MURDER)…. SO I FEEL IF YOU BECOME PREGNANT BY CHANCE AND NOT BY CHOICE AND DO NOT WANT THE CHILD YOU SOULD NOT GIVE BIRTH AND BRING THE SOUL PAIN. ABORTION WILL FREE THE SOUL FOR A BETTER LIFE.BUT TRY TO AVIOD SUCH ACTS(PREGNANCY BY CHANCE) AS EVERY ACT HAS A REACTION OR EFFECT). thus do you think that it is right to bring a soul on earth only to let it suffer and die a horrific death?? if a woman does not want to give birth to a child and yet gives birth …the result in many many cases is leaving the child to the mercy of nature. NOT EUROPE OR THE WEST…BUT IN MOST PARTS OF THE DEVELOPING WORLD…A PREGNENCY OUT OF WED-LOCK RESULTS IN SOCIAL ISOLATION AND EVEN KILLING OF THE GIRL IN RARE CASES(IT IS CONCIDERED A STIGMA)…..IN PLACES SOMETIMES THE GIRL IS FORCED TO GIVE BIRTH AND BECOME A HOUSE WIFE/HOME MAKER(CHILD MARRIAGE)….FORCED TO LEAVE EDUCATION….PHYCOLOGICALLY BROKEN VIA INSULTS AND IN WORSE CASES SOME EVEN COMMIT SUICIDE BECAUSE OF THE GUILT FACTOR….WHY DO U THINK ABORTION AS MURDER?? SEX IS A PLEASURE WE ALL ARE BOUND TO FALL IN…LACK OF SEX EDUCATION LEADS TO UNWANTED PREGNENCIES AND WHEN THESE ARE ABORTED I SEE THEM AS JUST….LIFE BEGINGS WITH THE FIRST BREATH BUT “NO” DENYING THAT THE SOUL COMES TO THE WOMB AT CONCEPTION WHEN THE SPERM AND EGG MEETS…..BUT TILL BORN OR LATE PREGNENCY THE SOUL CANNOT FEEL THE BODY FULLY !! SO ABORTION WOULD MEAN GIVING THE SOUL A CHANCE TO BE BORN ON EARTH TO A FAMILY WHERE IT WILL FIND LOVE AND BE WELCOMED!! WHY WELCOME A SOUL TO SUFFER?? WHY BRING A SOUL WHEN YOU ARE NOT READY TO LOVE IT??? ABONDONING A SOUL AFTER BIRTH IS FAR FAR MORE SINFUL AS IT IS NEGLECT OF DUTY OF BOTH PARENTS!! NOT ONLY MOTHER FOR TO BRING A CHILD BOTH SEX CELLS ARE NEEDED AND THUS RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT BE AVOIDED BY FATHERS!! ABORTION IS GENERALLY CALLED FOR IN TEEN AGE PREGNENCIES OR FAR HORRIBLE IN GIRLS WHO ARE JUST 12-13 WHEN THEY SHOULD STUDY AND PLAY INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT MOTHERHOOD ETC??? WHY RUIN 2 LIVES…1 OF THE UNREADY GIRL AND OTHER OF THE CHILD WHO MIGHT NOT BE LUCKY TO BE ADOPTED AT ALL!!! MURDER IS THE WILLFUL KILLING WHERE A SOUL IS IN THE POSSESION OF A BODY!! BEFORE BIRTH THERE CANT REALLY BE A DEATH SIMILAR TO DEATH AFTER BIRTH…THIS IS A VERY COMPLEX SPIRITUAL PLANE….YOU NEED TO BE HIGLY SPIRITUAL TO QUESTION THIS AREA OF WHERE THE SOUL RESIDES BEFOR BIRTH AND WHERE DOES IT GO AFTER DEATH…THESE ARE AREAS WHICH ARE PARTIALLY ANSWERED AND MOST CALL YOU TO BELEIVE BLINDLY….BUT SPIRITUALITY IS MORE THAN BLIND BELEIF…..EVERY WORD OF JESUS CAN BE PROVED AND TESTED TO BE TRUE IF YOU ADVANCE IN THE SPIRITUAL PATH….. MY POINT THUS IS —WHEN YOU ABORT -THE SOUL IS FREE TO BE BORN ON EARTH TO A FAMILY WHICH WILL LOVE IT!! THE PARENTS WHO ABONDONS AFTER BIRTH ARE WRONG AS THEY HAD NEGLECTED DUTY..(BUT MORE HUMAN IF TO A ADOPTION CENTER THAN LEAVE TO MERCY OF NATUE(IN EFFECT MURDER AND REAL ONE)) …..PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTER READING OF ALL THESE HORRORS WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BAN ABORTION? MUDER IS WILLINGLY KILLING A SOUL WITH A BODY AFTER BIRTH. ABORTION IS MUCH LESS THAN THAT!! SO I SUPPORT ABORTION IN SPECIFIC CASES ONLY!! AND EVERY CASE HAS ITS OWN MERITS AND DEMERITS!! HOW CAN WE EVER JUDGE SITTING IN COMFORT AND TALK OF PEOPLE IN THE SITUATION??

  22. I cant even begin to hit on all of your topics, it would take me all day to rebuttle some of these statements.

    Let me just point out my big ones:
    Christ Lover says..”BUT SOME OF THE MORE SEVERELY AFFECTED SUFFER A LOT. FOR ONLY THESE CATAGORY AND ONLY THIS CATAGORY I SEE NO REASON AS TO WHY NOT PREVENT IT ?IF THE PARENTS THINK THEY CANNOT TAKE THE SPECIAL CARE NEEDED THEN WHY LET A SOUL SUFFER??!!!” ALSO FEEL WHEN A GENTIC OR CONGENITAL SEVERE DESEASE HAS BEEN FOUND IT IS MOST APT TO ABORT THAN TO BRING A SOUL WITH A MAIMED BODY EVEN AFTER KNOWING SO. WHY LET A SOUL GET A SEVERE DEFORMED BODY IF ABORTION GIVES IT A CHANCE TO HAVE A NEW PERFECT ONE??”

    What do you or anyone else classify as severly affected. My daughter is deaf. Severly affected. She has not had an easy life. It has been hard work and pain and SUFFERING. Lots of tears. She is an adult. It is still hard. Would she have been a “severly affected” one that should have been murdered before she could suffer. What about our nephew who has cystic fibrosis and will probably never see adulthood. Should have popped him before he had a chance to cause so much heartache and pain?Yes, he is in pain.Not a “quality life” as you put it.
    What about our autistic friend? She is not really ever going to live a “quality life”.
    We have a little friend who just died at the age of 12 with severe birth defects. She never left her wheelchair. Had a feeding tube, never spoke, never had any “normal” life so to speak. The impact of her life on so many is unbelievable. Her parents adored her and spoke of the blessing of her, as did many. My daughter went to school with her and she changed my daughters life(and many) for the better without a doubt. They knew she was like this before they had her. Was it a good choice?
    The point is who draws the line?
    If you are able to decide who needs to live and who doesn’t that would make you God.

    Christ Lover:”WHY RUIN 2 LIVES…1 OF THE UNREADY GIRL AND OTHER OF THE CHILD WHO MIGHT NOT BE LUCKY TO BE ADOPTED AT ALL!!! ”

    Trust me the person who aborts life will be ruined.
    I have friends who aborted a baby and all of them suffer the mental anquish daily. One of them died of alcoholism directly connected to her feelings of never being able to get over having an abortion.

  23. dear happy,
    abortion is a concept that has not been spoken of by saints or christ as this was quite a modern developement. most people think that death is an all ending finality which ends all consiousness. but this is not the truth. abortion is a very senstitive and delicate topic and as i said “EVERY CASE HAS ITS OWN MERITS AND DEMERITS!! HOW CAN WE EVER JUDGE SITTING IN COMFORT AND TALK OF PEOPLE IN THE SITUATION??” you have taken personal stories and i will never comment on real life situations that has already taken place as they involve the feeling of the loved ones. but i can assure you that each story you said had the elements of seeing the devine hand working and must have been a story flled with love and determination. but i would like to point out some basic truths which might help you see abortion in a different way.but before i proceed i would say about your daughter..her case is not near to think of abortion. i will explain severly affected in the next para. and yes your question “who draws the line?” is the toughest to ever answer. as a rule i never speak with conviction of things i am not sure of.so i will not make rules. i will state some facts some of which leads to abortion being a choice to use..

    firstly: severely affected are thoes foetuses which have a genetic mistake and thus if born would have no ability to communicate with the outside world and would not survive without constant external support and medical care. also in some cases like when the brain is not forming or vital organs are not forming abortion is a million times less painful options. if you know certain spiritual truths you will be able to see the process in a better light. i will speak of them a little in the nxt papra. i am not a doctor ..so i will not be able to tell you fully about the cases which calls for abortion but most are truely horrible. many births if proceeded with will cause immense pain to the child as you must understand that pain or the nervous stimuli is a way of letting the brain know the severity of things wrong in the body. sO a malformed body produces immense pain at birth and only drugs can reduce it. the death is often so painful and having a interest in biology and its system i know what. it feels sometimes. mental retardation is the second catagory but to effectively understaand this you must read what i have to say on the certain truthS.

    and i will say about your friends you mentioned.-THEY DIED OR SUFFERED DAILY AS THEY WERE MADE TO BELEIVE THAT THEY HAD COMMITED MURDER. I MUST ASK ALL PEOPLE TO STOP RESORTING TO SAYING THINGS THEY KNOW NOT OF AND CAUSE MENTAL ANGUISH. THEIR ENVIRONMENT MADE THEM SUFFER. NOT THEIR ACT. (if an innocent person is made to beleive that he has killed someone who is SECRETLY KEPT alive will suffer badly even thou he is innocent under all laws of heaven !! thoughts are thus often made up by ones own self and can go agaist the self) THEY THOUGHT THE SOUL WAS LOST FOREVER AND THE ONLY CHANCE IT HAD FOR LIFE WAS TAKEN BY THEM!! UTTER RUBBISH !! THOUGHTS LIKE THIS ARE BOUND TO COME WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT EXPLORE SPIRITUALITY IN DEPTH AND DRAW CONCLUSIONS!! THATS THE REASON I SAY THAT BLIND BELEIF WITHOUT TESTING IS WEAK FAITH. FAITH COMES WHEN TESTED TRUTHS STARE AT THE FACE. THE BIBLE TAUGHT FAITH…BUT NOT BLIND ONES!! .I WILL LIKE TO REQUEST ALL PEOPLE TO STOP ATTACHING A MURDER TAG TO ABORTION. IF IT WAS MURDER THEN THE DOCTORS WHO ASSIST WOULD BE UNDER GOD-FIRE…thus you friends suffered unnessarily as they were made to beleive they did something horrible!!(i hopefully think that the cause was a medical one) NOW I WILL COME TO THE TRUTHS:

    FIRST :
    YOU ARE NOT THE BODY. YOU ARE THAT REMAINS AFTER DEATH AND WHAT YOU WERE BEFORE YOU HAD THIS BODY. THE SOUL!! DEATH CANNOT TOUCH YOU THE SOUL!! YOU LOSE THE CONCIOUSNESS OF THE BODY AFTER DEATH.BUT THAT IS NOT THE END. YOU REMAIN YOU. JUST WITHOUT A BODY !! YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE HUMAN BODY TO BE ON EARTH. AND THE SPIRITUAL REASON TO USE AND HAVE THE BODY IS TO KNOW GOD. THE SOUL WAS NEVER BORN. IT IS NOT TOUCHED BY DEATH. BUT IN MOST TIMES YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THE BODY..SO MOST PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO DIE. THINK WHAT IF THE BODY WAS ULTIMATE…WHAT DO WE FIND IN GRAVES??? DUST !! WHAT ABOUT VICTIMS WHO DIE IN FIRE…THE BODY BECOMES MOLECULES OF CARBON AND OTHER ELEMENTS AND MINGLE WITH THE ATMOSPHERE!! IS THAT THE REASON WHY WE BELEIVE IN GOD AND CHRIST?? TO BE GONE AS MOLECULES?? NO ..THE REAL SELF IS US …THE SOUL!! ….SO DO YOU THINK THAT GOD IS SO CRUEL THAT HE SHOWS PARTIALITY WHEN HE GIVES PEOPLE FULL FUNCTIONAL BODIES AND YET TO OTHERS HALF FORMED BODIES??(and when all beleive that there is only 1 life..1 chance) NO …GOD HAS NO HAND IN THIS. GOD IS NO DICTATOR. HE LOVES ALL EQUALLY AND HAS GIVEN FREE WILL TO US. WE USE OUR WILL TO DO RIGHT OR DO WRONG. WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS TO A MUDERER WHO ESCAPES CONVICTION AND DIES A HAPPY PEACEFUL DEATH BECAUSE HE JUSTIFIES HIS MURDER!! MOST PEOPLE ANSWER THAT HE GOES TO HELL A PLACE WHERE HE IS GOING TO SPEND ALL ETERNITY AND FIRE BURNS ALL DAY!! IMAGINE WHAT I ASK THESE PEOPLE?? ADDRESS OF HELL IS….??? NO ONE KNOWS!! NO ONE KNOWS WHERE HEAVEN IS?? ITS MERE CONCEPT ie. TAUGHT IT EXISTS!! BUT THE SPIRITUAL WORLD IS DEEPER THAN THAT AND IT ANSwERS ALL QUESTIONS AS YOU COME CLOSER TO GOD AND CHRIST. THE SOUL AFTER DEATH DOES NOT LOSE CHAnCE TO LIFE!! CAN AYONE DARE SAY THAT GOD WAS PARTIAL TO TAKE A CHILD OF 1 YEAR TO HIMSELF WITHOUT ALLOWING THE EXPERIENCE OF LIFE ON EARTH?? WE DO NOT BECOME ANGLES AFTER DEATH/ WE DONT GROW WINGS AND FLY TO GOD. REACHING SALVATION IS 50 % GODS GRACE…25 % THAT OF YOUR TEACHER(CHRIST) AND 25 % “YOUR OWN EFFORT”….NO SUBSTITUTE OF “YOUR EFFORT” …KNOWing YOUR SOUL IDENTITY IS A BIG STEP…ITS NOT JUST BELIVING …ITS DEFINITELY FEELING AND PERCEIVING THE TRUTH!! GOD CAN BE FELT…SEEN AND TOUCHED…NOT BY YOUR 5 SENSES!!! GOD HAS NO FORM…YOU USE YOUR INNER SENSE OF INTUTION AND LOVE…I WILL STOP HERE AS THE REST IS MORE COMPLEX AND NO ONE CAN GRASP IT BY MERELY READING!! I WILL JUST SAY THAT THE SOUL AFTER DEATH HAS 2 CHANCES:
    1) IF IT WAS DEVELOPED SPIRITUALLY(EVEN A LITTLE) IT AWAKENS IN A –FOR YOU UNDERSTANDING– A SPIRITUALLY BEAUTIFUL WORLD…OR YES “HEAVEN AS MANY CALL” ..THE MENTION IN THE BIBLE IS FOUND IN THE PLACE WHERE JESUS TALK OF THE PLACES THAT THE FATHR HAS BUILT FOR US…BUT KNOWING GOD Is THE ULTIMATE GOAL…NOT A VACATION IN HEAVEN!!
    HEAVEN IS A PLACE WHERE THE SOUL FINDS ITS ENVORONMENT MORE SPIRITUAL THAN ON EARTH..THUS ITS JOURNER TO KNOW GOD CONTINUES!! I WILL AGAIN STOP AS MOST WONT COMPREHEND MORE THAN THAT. WHAT ABOUT ETERNAL HELL??? YES A PLACE OF LOWER SPIRITUAL VIBRATIONS EXISTES FOR THOES SOULS WHO ARE BENT TO DOING WRONG even after suffering a lot for their wrongs on earth(stubborn souls bent on doing wrong)..THE SOULS ARE GIVEN A CHACE TO REALIZE HOW WRONG ACTS BRING BAD EFFECTS. THUS HELL IS A REAL PLaCE WHERE VERY VERY WICKED SOULS ARE ATTRACTED TO UNDERSTAND AND RECTIFY THEiR ACTIONS!! THE LAWS OF CAUSE AND EFECT WORK IN HELL MORE VIVIDLY!! BUT GOD’S EVER LOVING EYE IS ALSO MONITORING HELL!! WHEN A SOUL CALLS FOR HELP …GOD FORGIVES AND GIVES THE SOUL A CHANCE AND THUS THE JOURNEY CONTINUES….SO HELL IS THERE…BUT NOT ETERNAL HELL …WE ARE GODS CHILDREN…HE DOES NOT INFLICT PAIN…OUR OWN ACTIONS DOES..AS NO PARENTS CAN THROW THEIR UNWORTHY CHILD INTO AN OVEN SO GOD DOES NOT DO THE SAME!!

    2) THE SECOND IS THE CASE OF MOST SOULS!! AS MOST ARE NOT DEVELOPED SPIRITUALLY!! after death THEY FALL INTO A DEEP SLEEP LIKE STATE!! AFTER A BRIEF PERIOD OF such REST..THEY ARE SENT BACK TO EARTH. DO NOT THINK ME AS PAGAN OR WHAT NONSENSE PEOPLE CALL…BIBLE MATTHEW 11 UNDER “JOHN THE BAPTIST” JESUS OPENLY SPEAKS OF SOULS COMING BACK!! …”AND JOHN IS ELIJAH WHOES COMING WAS PREDICTED” AND IN THE BIBLE MANY MANY MORE HINTS ARE THERe OF THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS! JESUS WAS BORN AT A TIME WHEN HE COULD NOT SPEAK OPENLY ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE AS MOST WERE NOT READY!! BUT HE LEFT HINTS! ELIJAH IN HIS PREVIOUS BIRTH WAS HIGHLY ADVANCED SPIRITUALLY AND GOD SENT HIM AS JOHN!! THE BODY CHANGED…BUT THE SOUL THE REAL SELF WAS SAME!! (check other 3 apostels writings ie. john..luke…of the same passage) MOST WILL SCOFF…RIGHT?

    A MILE-STONE IN KNOWING GOD IS TO FOLLOW THE RIGHT LIVING PATH AS THAT BRINGS YOURSELF IN HARMONY WITH THE LAWS OF GOD!!

    THUS WHEN YOU GO FOR AN ABORTION TO AVIOD PAIN TO THE CHILD…YOU ARE FREEING THE SOUL!! IF IT IS DESTINEDTO BE BORN(according to past action or maybe a character flaw) THAT WAY..YOUR ABORTION WILL NOT STOP THE DEFORMITIES!! NEXT TIME IT WILL HAVE THEM MAYBE AFTER BIRTH OR AGAIN IN THE WOMB UNDEtecTED!! BUT ONCE BORN…THE SOUL IS ON EARTH!! IT LEARNS WHATEVER IT WAS MEANT TO LEARN!! EACH LIFE IS A MIRACLE AND EXPRESSION OF LOVE!! THE SOUL CALLLS FOR LOVE AND CHANGES LIves around it….AS YOU MENTIONED ABOUT THAT WONDERFUL SOUL WHO WENT TO SCHOOL WITH YOU DAUGHTER!! IT WAS FILLED WITH LOVE!! ONCE BORN YOU CANNOT COMPARE TO ABORTION!! ITS NEVER THAT WAY!! BUT I CALL FOR ABORTION IN CASE THE PARENTS WHO CANT AFFORD MEDICAL CARE OR THE RESULTING POVERTY!!

    THE LAST TRUTH i will say IS THAT A SOUL IS ATTTRACTED BY THE TRAITS OF THE PARENTS!! THUS IT COMES to them !! BUT IF BORN IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY OR a DEVELOPING COUNTRY WITH NO MONEY OR TECH TO SAVE THE PAIN THEN ABORTION IS RIGHT!! GOD DOES NOT DIRECT THE SOUL TO INDIVUDUAL PARENTS AS SUCH!!(IF HE DID SO THEM ONLY RICH PARENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN BABIES WITH SPECIAL NEEDS) . SO IF PARENTS THINK THEY CANNOT GIVE THIR BEST …ABORTION MEANS SAVING THE CHILD SUFFERING AND THUS NOT MURDER!! I HOPE YOU WILL READ THE FULL BIBLE ONCE LOOKING FOR THE TRUTHS I SPEAK OF AND TRYING TO REALTE BEFORE HAVING YOUR SAY TO ME!! THERE ARE MANY MANY MORE TRUTHS TO BE FOUND OTHER THAN THE ONES I WROTE OF…RELIGION IS ABOUT ANSWERING THE QESTIONS OF MAN-KIND…AND RELIGION IS A INDIVIDUAL QUEST!! DO NOT THINK OF YOURSELFS AS WORTHLESS SINNERS WHO CAN BE SAVED BY GOD’S GRACE ONLY and no effort on your own part!! …THATS NEGATIVE…YOU AE SOULS AND CHILDREN OF GOD…SINNER YES…BUT ONES WHO HAVE DECIDED TO STRIVE TO KNOW GOD…THE DIFFERENCE BETWeEN A SAINT AND SINNER IS THAT THE SAINT NEVER STOPPED TRYING AND LEFT HIS SINNER TAG BEHIND!!. RELIGION IS NOT CONCEPTS…YOU CAN KNOW CHRIST…SEE CHRIST…AND KNOW GOD…WHEN YOU PRAY TO HIM and YOU ARE READY AND CALL FOR HIM DAILY….HE WILL SEND YOU THE MEANS TO REACH HIM…..GOD IS LOVE…FORGIVENESS…AND PURE JOY TO KNOW!! BLISS AND LOVE ARE HIS ESSENCE….THATS WHY I ALWAYS SAY A MERE THING AS SEX CANNOT BE USED TO BAR WOMEN FROM GOD’S PRIEST HOOD STATUS !! ..GOD SEES US AS SOULS…NOT MAN OR WOMAN….ITS JUST A PART OF HIS PLAY THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT SEXES!! AS SOULS WE STAND EQUAL IN EVERY RESPECT!! ON EARTH OR HEAVEN!! BUT ON EARTH FOR PURELY PHYSICAL REASONS WOMEN HAVE TEDER BODIES TO COMFORT A CHILD!! AFTER THAT A WOMANS BODY CEASES TO HAVE SIGNIFICANCE IN THE QUEST FOR GOD…ITS JUST A HUMAN BODY tag THAT MATTERS THEN!!

    AND WHERE DID I GET ALL THIS KNOWLDGE FROM?? WELL LETS SAY IF YOU DIVE DEEP WITH DETERMINTAION TO KNOW GOD..HE SENDS YOU MEANS TO MORE UNDERSTANDING..HELP AND ANSWERS WILL COME TO YOU FROM VARIOUS PLACES(IT MAYBE YOU MEET SOMEONE SPIRITUAL OR GET HOLD OF BOOKS.. ANYTHING ..ITS UPTO GOD) I GIVE ALL THANKS TO JESUS FOR PUSHING ME AHEAD IN THE PATH!! I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM OR SEEN GOD..BUT THOES ARE THE STEPS WHICH COME MUCH LATER WHEN YOU DEVELOPE HIGHLY !! BUT YES I HAVE FELT HIS HAND IN EVERY SPHERE OF MY LIFE ,,I CANT SAY MORE!! . JUST THAT YOU SHOULD PRAY AND MEDITATE(IE. CONCENTRATE) ON HIM(CHRIST OR GOD) DAILY AT NIGHT ASKING HIS HELP in understanding him !! .YOU CAN VISUALIZE CHRIST AT THE POINT BETWEEN YOUR EYE-BROW AS THAT HELPS IN INTENSIFYING YOUR CONCENTRATION AS BIOLOGICALLY THATS WHERE THE EYE CAN FOCUS BEST WHEN CLOSED!! …MAY GOD;S LOVE BE EVER WITH YOU!!

  24. AND ONE MORE THING…AS I FELT IT WILL BE CONFUSING NOT TO SAY THIS….A SOUL IS SENT TO EARTH TO BECOME MORE PERFECT(RECTIFY ITS FLAWS LIKE ANGER..BAD HABITS ETC ETC..WHICH PREVENT IT FROM KNOWING GOD) !! THE FLAWS CANNOT BE THERE TO GAIN SALVATION!! THUS THE SOUL IS SENT BACK UNTIL IT BECOMES PERFECT IN MOST RESPECTS AND REACH A VERY HIGHY SPIRITUAL STATE OF DEVELOPEMENT..ONCE THIS POINT IS REACHED …THERE IS NO REASON FOR THE SOUL TO BE BORN ON EARTH…AND AFTER THAT POINT KNOWING GOD IS JUST A FEW MORE STEPS AHEAD…THESE ARE COMPLEX BUT I MENTION THIS MUCH AS ELSE PEOPLE WILL THINK ITS CRAZY TO SAY WE KEEP DYING AND COME BACK WITH NO AIM AND PURPOSE AGAIN AND AGAIN !! NO THE PURPOSE IS TO GAIN THE PERFECTION TO REACH SALVATION WHICH IS KNOWING GOD!! IF A PERSON REACHED PERFECTION IN THIS LIFETIME HE WILL GO TO HEAVEN AND PROGRESS FURTHUR ..AND YES ULTIMATELY REACH SALVATION!!

  25. Thank you CL for clarifying your beliefs. REINCARNATION is a PAGAN belief! No wonder you believe abortion is merciful. Your soul is in danger. Kyrie Eleison.

  26. I think you put it best, “most will scoff”.

  27. dear bhfu,
    talking of jesus and god is a beautiful thing to do. i want to discuss with you a few of your beleifs as i feel you know what the church teaches by heart!! dont mind the difference in our beleif!! i want to know more about what people beleive in christ and if u beleive my soul is in danger then you have the right to point out why so!!

    i want you to explain certain verses i am quoting from the bible. also i will tell you a short historical fact. please tell me what you think about it?

    i found numerous verses in the bible telling of this doctorine of reincarnation, i am writing them below. how would you explain them??

    then job arose and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground and worshipped. and said, “naked came i out of my mothers womb and naked shall i return thither” job 1:20:,21 (ie. unto another womb).

    but thou, bethlehem ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israle; whoes going forth have been from old, from everlasting” (micah 5:2)

    for all the prophets and the law prophesied until john. and if ye will receive it, this is elias,which was for to come. he that hath ears to hear, let him hear (matthew 11:13-15)

    “and as they came came down from the mountain, jesus charged them,saying, tell the vision(of his transfiguration, in which he had revealed himself as the messiah) to no man, until the son of man be risen again from the dead. and his disciples asked him,saying, why then say the scribes that elias must first come? and jesus answered and said unto them, elias truely shall firs come, and restore all things. but i say into you, that elias is come already, and they knew him not,but have done unto him whatSoever they listed. likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them. then the diciples understood he spake onto them about john the baptist.” (matthew 17:9-13)

    “him that overcometh will i make a pillar in the temple of my god, and he shall go no more out”(revealation 3:12) “GO OUT” TO EARTH TO BE REBORN TO MAKE THE LOVE FOR GOD PERFECT BY REMOVING FLAWS WHICH STAND IN THE WAY OF KNOWING GOD!!

    these sections are merely a few out of many which talks so frankly about reincarnation. so how come christians call it so pagan when the bible shouts out the message so clearly!!

    now the historical fact:

    reincarnation is not un-christian or even un-jewish…
    it was taught by some of the early great christian fathers, including origen ( AD 185-254) who claimed to have received it in an unbroken tradition from “apostolic times”. indeed it was not until five centuries after christ in AD 553, at the second council of constantinopole, that this doctorine was finally removed from christian dogma. the anathema that was pronounced aginst it was a consequence of political maneuverings, not of thoelogical purism.pope vigilius although present in constantinople at that time, took no part in prouncing the anthema, and infact had boycotted the council altogether!!!
    for jews reincarnation is endorsed in the shulan oruch which is the major book of laws in the torah…a quote from the sha’ar hatsiyune letter 6vav: ” that soul will be sent time and time again to this world until he does what god wants him to do”

    a little for happy—origen wrote of reincarnation “is it not reasonable that souls should be intoduced into bodies in accordance to their merits and previous deeds” i pointed out the same when i explained as to why god has no hand in giving souls deformed bodies sometimes!!

    and bhfu a little about purgatory:

    i came to know of the concept of pugatory while having a chat with a nun!!

    look i want you to define ”

    1) what is a soul TO youself?? you say “my soul” as if you are different from the soul…then if you dont know your soul why care for it?? so 1stly define soul.
    2) what exactly do you mean by purifying the soul?? is it via pain or fear or loving guidance?? as far as i know there is no mention of pergatory and man made up the whole concept to cover up the illogical fear of eternal hell which in realitly is not eternal anyway…just beacuse no man can declare that he is going to heaven just before dying as the whole life is not obviously sinless, man created this place to make things fit!!
    2) what do you mean by salvation?? answer this honestly to yourself !! is it an entry to heaven without suffering??
    look i will make 2 situations to make you think:

    case 1 : you go to heaven….but ‘you” are “you” after death!! say you were an angry man before death and remain so after death too!! so you enter heaven….no more death to fear…all eternity of non-suffering(but mind you …what do you feel in life on earth when you have nothing interesting going on in life!! say a perfect trouble free period..BORED!! same in heaven in our example) so in heaven …millions of years,,,,u meet saints….god pops up to say hi and you declare eternal love to each other!! you meet jesus and know all mystries of the universe!! same old thing again and again and again!! years go by…no end…as no death!!! WHAT DO YOU DO IN HEAVEN?? WORSIHP GOD?? EVEN HE WILL WANT SILENCE AND PEACE THAN TO HEAR SHRILL VOICES CALL HIS NAME ALL THE TIME!! REMBER YOU CANT SHOUT FOR ALL ETERNITY…MADNESS TO SAY “I LOVE U GOD” -NON-STOP FOR ALL ETERNITY ..NON STOP AND GOD LOVES HEARING THAT!! 🙂 what next!! you grow bored…fed up ?? is that heaven?? long long eternal time ..doing nothing…no job …only watching god and saints!! YOU HAVE A HOUSE IN HEAVEN?? OR MAYBE CAR TO TRAVEL?? OR MAYBE TENNNIS COURTS?? does it make sense?? or is it just not a fairy tale i am making up?? so if my story seems absurd then what do you say happens in heaven?? millions of years of boredome doing nothing but trying to show love to god?? how do you on earth show love?? by giving things….etc?? what does the lord of everything want from a mere you OTHER THAN THE FEELING OF LOVE INWARDLY THAT YOU HAVE?? you see …thus the concept of going to heaven after death and liviing a earth style life out there is as flawed as the fuuny concept of eternal hell!! i mentioned your anger to show how flawed the logic non-suffering in heaven is!! say someone stops your speech in heaven…your anger causes you to swear…and that causes suffering to the other person who dared to inturrupt!! so you DESTROYED heaven!! now you might say its impossible to enter heaven with a flawed nature as purgatory takes care of that!! i will come to your role in purgatory a bit later!! and by the way bad habits may crop up anytime and reasonable anger is a part of emotion filled beings and it does make others suffer even slighty if you by mistake say “shut up ..you just dont stop speaking”!!!

    case 2:
    you have sinned bad and end up in hell!! now what!!
    fire all around you (by the way you have no body to feel fire..so you must explain as how a physical thing like fire can touch the soul) ..anyway so u feel say burnt up…and feel pain…for all eternity?? millions of years!! you hate god….you curse him for pain…and then call him and say tearfully …”you called me your own son?? even i would not put my own son on fire even if he commits the worst crime for ever!! why dont you listin to me!! ” according to you god has forsaken you right?? never to look upon you?? WHAT YOU CANNOT DO ON EARTH TO YOUR OWN SON GOD WILL DO TO HIS OWN SONS??? WILL YOU BE ABLE TO BURN SLOWLY YOUR OWN FELLOW HUMAN BEING SAY WHERE YOU ARE SITTING AND READING THIS!! NO YOU CANT!! HIS SUFFERNG WILL HORRIFY YOU TO STOP!! THINK ON WHAT POINT I WANT TO STRESS!! and what about the millions of other non-christains??? are they not souls?? a creation of god?? is god so partial that some who are lucky to hear of christ gets a ticket to heaven ..while the child who dies without hearning about christ goes to hell!! THIS LOTTERY CONCEPT OF THE SPIRITUAL PATH IS A LIE!! billions have poppulated the earth and have died!! and more billions will come!! do you mean that all the trillions of people were new souls?? then according to you …infinite number of souls will come and go….what about your concept that salvation will come on the judgment day …all of a sudden as if in a flash?? say before J-DAY a soul comeS on earth!! LUCKY SOUL!! JUST A DAY TO KNOW GOD!!! WHILE billions of years waiting had to be sustained by the say 100000th soul on earth!! big partiality right?? now all this is FALWED!! MAKE NO SENSE!!

    and pugatory??

    say smoking is a sin !! a man smokes and thus in purgatory he is to be de-addicted!! so god inflicts him with pain..fear…andfinally when the sou breaks down…and changes….HEAVENLY TICKIT COMES!! but satan tempts!! the joy of smoke is too good..but purgetory fear rules and te man rejects the smoke!! but next day god to test the man’s heart and sincierity tells the man that for a day smoking is legal and no sin is there to smoke!! thus the man takes the cigar from gods hand and tells him what a pleasure it is!! god relizes that fear had only changed the heart temporarily!! it was only fear that was preventing the man from cigars!!1 purgatory had failed!! so you may be forced to supress anger to go to heaven!! but anger kills inside iF it cannot be experesed!! so do you think now BHFU THAT CHANGE COMES THROUGH FEAR?? PERMANENT CHANGE COMES WITH ONLY LOVE AND WILL TO CHANGE…THINK DEEP OF WHAT I SAID!!

    THE FACT THAT BILLIIONS OF SOULS DIE WITHOUT HEARING OFCHRIST!! WHAT ABOUT THEM?? GOD IS PLAYING LOTTERY WITH HIS CREATION??

    HOW VAST CAN BE HEAVEN??

    DO YOU THINK YOU WILL HAVE A BODY WHEN YOU DIE TO WALK WITH??(DONT TRY TO ANSWER THIS..ITS COMPLEX)

    QUESTION DEEPLY AND DONT BE AFRAID TO THINK DEEPLY!! NOHTHING IS BEYOND COMPREHENSION!! IF NOTHING COMES UP..DONT MAKE UP WHEN YOU DONT KNOW!! PRAY AND ANSWERS COME!! BUT FIRST EXPLAIN ALL THESE!!

  28. CL: i found numerous verses in the bible telling of this doctorine of reincarnation, i am writing them below. how would you explain them??
    “then Job arose and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground and worshipped. and said, “naked came i out of my mothers womb and naked shall i return thither” job 1:20:,21 (ie. unto another womb).

    BFHU: Interesting interpretation. However, the text says nothing about another womb. We KNOW we do not return to our birth mother’s womb but we do leave, a type of “going back” away from this life… naked.

    This passage is not doctrinal teaching anyway but the quotation of some ancient poetry. So it needs to be read as poetry, not as prose or didactic teaching.

    I think, in the context, the loss of material goods, the nakedness is the point. The point is not teaching about reincarnation. And, also, the going back could be interpreted “going back to the mother’s womb”, except that we know that is not reality and it does not bolster the reincarnation idea. The fact is, you can’t go back to a place you have never been before; such as (another womb)

    CL:

    but thou, bethlehem ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israle; whoes going forth have been from old, from everlasting” (micah 5:2)

    BFHU: This is speaking about Jesus the eternal second person of the Holy Trinity who has existed eternally, therefore He has been “going forth from of old, from everlasting”

    CL:

    for all the prophets and the law prophesied until john. and if ye will receive it, this is elias,which was for to come. he that hath ears to hear, let him hear (matthew 11:13-15)

    “and as they came came down from the mountain, jesus charged them,saying, tell the vision(of his transfiguration, in which he had revealed himself as the messiah) to no man, until the son of man be risen again from the dead. and his disciples asked him,saying, why then say the scribes that elias must first come? and jesus answered and said unto them, elias truely shall firs come, and restore all things. but i say into you, that elias is come already, and they knew him not,but have done unto him whatSoever they listed. likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them. then the diciples understood he spake onto them about john the baptist.” (matthew 17:9-13)

    BFHU: In Malachi 3:23 There is the prophesy that Elijah will come before the day of the Lord. This does not mean that John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elijah but that John is a great prophet in the spirit of Elijah–Luke 1:17

    “He (John the baptist) will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hears of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understaqnding of the righteous…”


    CL:

    “him that overcometh will i make a pillar in the temple of my god, and he shall go no more out”(revealation 3:12)

    “GO OUT” TO EARTH TO BE REBORN TO MAKE THE LOVE FOR GOD PERFECT BY REMOVING FLAWS WHICH STAND IN THE WAY OF KNOWING GOD!!

    BFHU:

    You are reading a huge interpretation into the verse in Rev. with nothing to support it. There is absolutely no compelling reason to accept your view

    .

    CL: these sections are merely a few out of many which talks so frankly about reincarnation. so how come christians call it so pagan when the bible shouts out the message so clearly!!

    BFHU: It is NOTclear and the Bible does not shout it at all. These verses have NO HISTORY of being interpreted the way you are interpreting them. The belief in reincarnation is a Hindu belief as far as I know and that is a pagan religion.

    CL: now the historical fact: reincarnation is not un-christian or even un-jewish…it was taught by some of the early great christian fathers,

    BFHU: Origen became apostate at some point. If your quote is accurate it might be from his heretical period. His writings are not infallible but many of his early writings were very orthodox. Please cite your source so I can check up on your claim. I have all the writing of the Early Fathers on CD and they are also online. I will not accept your word for it that the early fathers accepted and taught reincarnation.
    1) what is a soul TO youself?? you say “my soul” as if you are different from the soul…then if you dont know your soul why care for it?? so 1stly define soul.

    BFHU: That is just a way to speak of it. I am one but two natures–body and soul. The body will die the soul is eternal. At death the soul will be judged by what was done in the body. It will be consigned to Heaven or Hell and will go there immediately unless the soul must first be purified on its way to Heaven in Purgatory. At the end of time, after the final judgement the body will be resurrected and joined once again to the soul for all eternity either in Heaven or Hell. That should explain why I care for my soul.

    2) what exactly do you mean by purifying the soul?? is it via pain or fear or loving guidance??

    BFHU: Unpleasant. Pain is used to image this unpleasantness as in burning if fire. Regret, possibly very much sorrow. Fear? no b/c the soul knows it will be in Heaven. Loving guidance? I don’t think so. What it is exactly only God knows.

    as far as i know there is no mention of pergatory and man made up the whole concept to cover up the illogical fear of eternal hell which in realitly is not eternal anyway…just beacuse no man can declare that he is going to heaven just before dying as the whole life is not obviously sinless, man created this place to make things fit!!

    BFHU: No God taught it to us. The Jews believe also in a purification before Heaven. What is purified is the consequences of sin that are temporal. Jesus paid the eternal consequences for sin.

    2) what do you mean by salvation?? answer this honestly to yourself !!

    BFHU: Friendship with God and the opportunity to live with Him in Heaven for eternity rather than suffer in Hell.

    is it an entry to heaven without suffering??


    BFHU: No, we all suffer first to atone for the temporal consequences of sin, either in this life or the next, in Purgatory.

    look i will make 2 situations to make you think: case 1 : you go to heaven….but ‘you” are “you” after death!! say you were an angry man before death and remain so after death too!! so you enter heaven….no more death to fear…all eternity of non-suffering(but mind you …what do you feel in life on earth when you have nothing interesting going on in life!! say a perfect trouble free period..BORED!! same in heaven in our example) so in heaven …millions of years,,,,u meet saints….god pops up to say hi and you declare eternal love to each other!! you meet jesus and know all mystries of the universe!! same old thing again and again and again!! years go by…no end…as no death!!! WHAT DO YOU DO IN HEAVEN?? WORSIHP GOD?? EVEN HE WILL WANT SILENCE AND PEACE THAN TO HEAR SHRILL VOICES CALL HIS NAME ALL THE TIME!! REMBER YOU CANT SHOUT FOR ALL ETERNITY…MADNESS TO SAY “I LOVE U GOD” -NON-STOP FOR ALL ETERNITY ..NON STOP AND GOD LOVES HEARING THAT!! what next!! you grow bored…fed up ?? is that heaven?? long long eternal time ..doing nothing…no job …only watching god and saints!! YOU HAVE A HOUSE IN HEAVEN?? OR MAYBE CAR TO TRAVEL?? OR MAYBE TENNNIS COURTS?? does it make sense?? or is it just not a fairy tale i am making up?? so if my story seems absurd then what do you say happens in heaven?? millions of years of boredome doing nothing but trying to show love to god?? how do you on earth show love?? by giving things….etc?? what does the lord of everything want from a mere you OTHER THAN THE FEELING OF LOVE INWARDLY THAT YOU HAVE?? you see …thus the concept of going to heaven after death and liviing a earth style life out there is as flawed as the fuuny concept of eternal hell!!

    BFHU: Heaven will be more than we can think or ask. It won’t be boring and Hell won’t be funny. If you are right and there is reincarnation then my Christian faith will not cost me anything. But if I am right and there is a Heaven and a Hell then your Paganism will land you in eternal Hell. Why risk it?

    i mentioned your anger to show how flawed the logic non-suffering in heaven is!! say someone stops your speech in heaven…your anger causes you to swear…and that causes suffering to the other person who dared to inturrupt!! so you DESTROYED heaven!! now you might say its impossible to enter heaven with a flawed nature as purgatory takes care of that!!

    BFHU: Correct. We will not destroy Heaven by anger b/c we won’t have anything to be angry at since we shall all be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

    case 2: you have sinned bad and end up in hell!! now what!! fire all around you (by the way you have no body to feel fire..so you must explain as how a physical thing like fire can touch the soul) ..anyway so u feel say burnt up…and feel pain…for all eternity?? millions of years!! you hate god….you curse him for pain…and then call him and say tearfully …”you called me your own son?? even i would not put my own son on fire even if he commits the worst crime for ever!! why dont you listin to me!! ” according to you god has forsaken you right?? never to look upon you?? WHAT YOU CANNOT DO ON EARTH TO YOUR OWN SON GOD WILL DO TO HIS OWN SONS??? WILL YOU BE ABLE TO BURN SLOWLY YOUR OWN FELLOW HUMAN BEING SAY WHERE YOU ARE SITTING AND READING THIS!! NO YOU CANT!! HIS SUFFERNG WILL HORRIFY YOU TO STOP!! THINK ON WHAT POINT I WANT TO STRESS!!

    BFHU: Fire is a metaphore most likely to illustrate the horror of damnation. God does not consigne people to Hell they chose it by their life in the body.

    and what about the millions of other non-christains??? are they not souls?? a creation of god??


    BFHU: Of, course. God loves them too. they are His children as well.

    is god so partial that some who are lucky to hear of christ gets a ticket to heaven ..while the child who dies without hearning about christ goes to hell!!

    BFHU: You misunderstand b/c you have probably been more exposed to Protestant theology rather than Catholic theology. Each soul is judged based on its knowledge of God and what it did in response to that knowledge. Christians have the best map to Heaven but God judges on what we knew, not what we did not know.

    God’s Wrath Against Mankind
    Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    THIS LOTTERY CONCEPT OF THE SPIRITUAL PATH IS A LIE!! billions have poppulated the earth and have died!! and more billions will come!! do you mean that all the trillions of people were new souls??

    BFHU: Yes

    according to you …infinite number of souls will come and go….

    BFHU: Yes

    what about your concept that salvation will come on the judgment day …all of a sudden as if in a flash??


    BFHU: Yes. The day you die is your own personal Judgment Day.

    say before J-DAY a soul comeS on earth!! LUCKY SOUL!! JUST A DAY TO KNOW GOD!!!


    BFHU: Yes, many babies live a day or less.

    WHILE billions of years waiting had to be sustained by the say 100000th soul on earth!! big partiality right?? now all this is FALWED!! MAKE NO SENSE!!

    BFHU: No. God judges each on the individual facts. At death we, our souls, enter eternity. The conscious part of our being doesn’t wait billions of years or even thousands of years. Bodies, however may have to wait along time for resurrection.

    and pugatory?? say smoking is a sin !!


    BFHU: Smoking is not a sin.

    a man smokes and thus in purgatory he is to be de-addicted!! so god inflicts him with pain..fear…andfinally when the sou breaks down…and changes….

    BFHU: Purgatory is not for convincing someone to change. At death their chances to change end. Purgatory is only for those who die in friendship with God and desire to please Him and be purified. Purgatory is not coercive, it is purifying. The soul, though, suffering is also joyful b/c it knows it will soon be in Heaven.

    HEAVENLY TICKIT COMES!! but satan tempts!! the joy of smoke is too good..but purgetory fear rules and te man rejects the smoke!! but next day god to test the man’s heart and sincierity tells the man that for a day smoking is legal and no sin is there to smoke!! thus the man takes the cigar from gods hand and tells him what a pleasure it is!! god relizes that fear had only changed the heart temporarily!! it was only fear that was preventing the man from cigars!!1 purgatory had failed!! so you may be forced to supress anger to go to heaven!! but anger kills inside iF it cannot be experesed!! so do you think now BHFU THAT CHANGE COMES THROUGH FEAR??

    BFHU: No. There is no temptation in Heaven. All attachments to sin are purged in Purgatory so there no longer remains any desire to sin even if one were tempted b/c the fullness of human nature is restored and love for God reigns over the soul.

    HOW VAST CAN BE HEAVEN??

    BFHU: As vast as it needs to be. All things are possible with God.

    DO YOU THINK YOU WILL HAVE A BODY WHEN YOU DIE TO WALK WITH??(DONT TRY TO ANSWER THIS..ITS COMPLEX)


    BFHU: Yes, at the end of time. Our bodies will be reunited to our souls. Not complex really.

  29. C.L.:“GO OUT” TO EARTH TO BE REBORN TO MAKE THE LOVE FOR GOD PERFECT BY REMOVING FLAWS WHICH STAND IN THE WAY OF KNOWING GOD!!

    Back to the orginal dicussion of abortion. Are you saying here that taking a soul out of a damaged body and in your belief it is reicarnated to another “good body”?

    I think BFHU addressed those scriptures well. Reincarnation is not a belief held by Christians.(Or any that I know).

    Again, my point being why do you think it would be ANY persons call on if a body is damaged or too damaged to live?

    If your point is that “their love for God would be made perfect by removing flaws”??? What?
    We have been counsellors for mentally handicapped/physically handicapped adults at a camp. I would venture to say that their love for the Lord might outshine many “normal” adults that I know.

    You stated that my examples were of children already born. Well, how do you know the plans that God has for the unborn?

    I know babies who are born into families who have the means to take care of them and actually plan them who might be the most abused of all.

  30. BHFU-However, the text says nothing about another womb.

    THE TEXT CLEARLY MENTIONS ” naked came i out of my mothers womb and naked shall i return thither”
    i think you did not see the words “naked shall i return thither” …DOES NOT THE PART ” naked came i out of my mothers womb ” CLEARLY MENTION THAT A WOMB IS BEING TALKED ABOUT?? HOW CAN ANYONE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS ENGLISH?? SO THE RETURN IS ALSO TO A WOMB. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THE TEXT DOES NOT TALK OF A WOMB??AND AS U SAID SINCE IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RETURN TO ONE’S OWN MOTHER’S WOMB THEN IT HAS TO BE ANOTER WOMB TO MAKE SENSE, OF THIS QUOTE.”naked shall i return thither”. the WORD “THITHER” INDICATES A WOMB IN THE CONTEXT.

    BHFU-We KNOW we do not return to our birth mother’s womb but we do leave, a type of “going back” away from this life… naked.

    YES WE DO RETURN LIKE THAT….. BUT AFTER “NAKED” THE WORDS “shall i return thither” MUST BE PUT. INCOMPLETE SENTENCES CANT BE USED AS YOUR ANSWER.

    BHFU-This passage is not doctrinal teaching anyway but the quotation of some ancient poetry. So it needs to be read as poetry, not as prose or didactic teaching.

    please read about the context of job in the bible before reading my answer. in short the whole of job deals with the theme- the justice of god in the light of human suffering. thus we are not to read it as a poem and when i went through job once more i could not for once see it as a poem.i saw in them the life of job and the way god was responding. it is a story to reinforce our faith in troubled times as the life of job covers many many tragedies BUT ULTIMATE VICTORY. it has heavy significance in every line as each line has a deep pure meaning.

    job in context is saying a prayer to god. NOT a poetry in anyway as you say. he is talking of his destination which is A mothers womb.(and i say that ,it is his next life mother’s TO MAKE SENSE) (thither-return to the womb) that is why he used the word thither. how will u explain “return thither”?? everything cant be dismissed as poetry. this is a prayer and job was not poetic in prayer. even if it was,then also the only meaning that comes out is talking of “returning thither”. HE FRANKLY SAYS HE CAME OUT OF A WOMB AND WILL RETURN THERE ONCE MORE.

    and the bible is not all about rules. the stories and all text talks about the many important things of the spiritual world. so each line has a significance and talks of a truth. SO TELLING TO LOOK AT A TEXT AS POETRY WILL DILUTE THE MEANING OF THE TEXT AND LEAVE MOST THINGS TO MAN’S INTERPRETATION AND YOU KNOW WELL POETS ALL DIFFER IN VIEWS.

    also i say before i proceed to the next section :

    IS THIS HOW ETERNAL TRUTHS IN THE BIBLE MUST BE HANDLED?? WHATEVER SEEMS NOT RIGHT WITH THE CENTURIES OF TEACHINGS MUST BE LOOKED UPON AS POETRY, or must be passed on as “god only knows ” or “this is how it has been taught for centuries and by the church-whatever denomination”?? THEN WHAT ABOUT THE CHURCH CLAIMING THAT THE HOLY SCRIPTURES SAID THAT EARTH IS THE CENTER?? WAS IT NOT A VERY POETIC VIEW??? A WRONG INTREPRETATION!! HOW MANY LIVES WERE LOST WHO OPPOSED THE NOTION AND HOW MANY YEAR DID SCIENCE LOSE?? SO I AM TELLING THAT CENTURIES OF TEACHING DOES NOT SUBSTATIATE A SAYING. IT IS THE INTREPETATION OF SOME MEN IN THE CHURCH AND THAT WAS NEVER QUESTIONED !! SO THE CHURCH DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD IS SPEAKING. MAN’S BRAINS ARE WORKING RIGHT? AND MANY THINGS ARE DEBATED TO COME TO A PUBLIC STATEMENT RIGHT?? SO IT ALL COMES DOWN TO MEN INTERPRETING THE SCRIPTURES AFTER DEBATE!!
    and FOR A GREAT RELIGION LIKE CHRISTANITY ALL ANSWERS MUST BE FOUND IN IT AND SATISFY ALL REASON AND LOGICAL QUESTIONS!!

    BFHU: In Malachi 3:23 There is the prophesy that Elijah will come before the day of the Lord. This does not mean that John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elijah but that John is a great prophet in the spirit of Elijah–Luke 1:17

    YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE CONCEPT OF SPIRIT. SPIRIT OF ELIJAH HAS WHAT RELATION TO ELIJAH’S SOUL OR IE. ELIJAH HIMSELF?? WE ARE SOULS ENCASED IN A BODY!! NOW IF I SAY IN MY SPIRIT…ETC…WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT??? HOW MANY ELEMENTS MAKE UP A MAN??

    “He (John the baptist) will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hears of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understaqnding of the righteous…”

    YES THAT WAS THE PROPHECY THAT ELIAS WOULD COME BEFORE…BUT CHRIST HIMSELF SIAD AGAIN to CLARIFY IN DETAILS ” elias truely shall first come, and restore all things. but i say into you,

    that elias is come already,==(MARK THE STATEMENT)

    and they knew him not”……….then the diciples understood he spake onto them

    about john the baptist.” (matthew 17:9-13),==(MARK THE STATEMENT)

    HE SAID ELIAS HAS COME ALREADY…NOT A DIFFERENT PERSON HAVING ELIAS’S POWER. CHRIST HIMSELF SAID…ELIAS HAD COME AND GONE…..NOW WHERE IS THE DIFFICULTY IN UNDERSTANDING CHRIST TALKING TO HIS DICIPLES?? IF ELIAS HAD COME IT HAD TO BE HIS SOUL TO BE HIM!! else why will chriST Say elias had come?? a person can only come when the soul of that person is there –and christ could see that as he had the devine power to recognise a soul. if anyone says i come in the spirit of christ i will never hail him as jesus himself. but jesus hailed john as elias himself and he used his name directly and nevr said like you said “(John the baptist) will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to ……..”

    BFHU: You are reading a huge interpretation into the verse in Rev. with nothing to support it. There is absolutely no compelling reason to accept your view.

    HOW DO YOU INTERPRET IT??
    him that overcometh will i make a pillar in the temple of my god, and he shall go no more out”(revealation 3:12)
    WHERE SHALL HE NOT GO OUT TO ANYMORE IF HEAVEN ONCE ENTERED IS PERMANENT??? if he had not overcometh where will he have to go?? as according to you only 4 places exists to go-heaven, earth hell and purgatory(which is only once visited as you say).

    but thou, bethlehem ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israle; whoes going forth have been from old, from everlasting” (micah 5:2)

    BFHU: This is speaking about Jesus the eternal second person of the Holy Trinity who has existed eternally, therefore He has been “going forth from of old, from everlasting”

    YOU HAVE MISSED THE POINT AND MEANING . THIS IS SPEAKING OF “ruler in israle” IE. THE FUTURE KING OF ISRALE. AND IF YOU BELEIVE IN THAT CHRIST WAS A UNIQUE SOUL WHO BECAME CHRIST AS GOD DECLARED HIM AS HIS SON THEN HOW COME YOU QUOTE THIS MEANING OUT OF THIS TEXT WHERE IT SAY

    “yet out of thee shall come forth”.

    acc. to your interpretation then, christ came forth from the common mass of israle TO WHOM GOD WAS SPEAKING to–“yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israle”…

    whoes going forth have been from old, from everlasting” (micah 5:2)

    THE REAL CONTEXT OF THIS TEXT IS HOPE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE PROMISED LAND….THUS THE TEXT IS ADRESSED TO ” bethlehem ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of judah”…
    IN SIMPLE WORDS THIS TEXT SAYS OF GOD TELLING HIS PEOPLE NOT TO BE AFRAID AS HE WOULD SEND THEM A POWERFUL KING WHO “going forth have been from old, from everlasting” AND THIS IS THE PLACE REINCARNATION IS BEING TALKED ABOUT.
    I HOPE THIS CLARIFIES THE MEANING OF THE TEXT.

    Please cite your source so I can check up on your claim. I have all the writing of the Early Fathers on CD and they are also online

    I WROTE DOWN THE QUOTE FROM SOME BOOK WHICH I DONT HAVE AND REMEMBER THE NAME OF. BUT I REMEMBER THAT THEY WERE WRITTEN IN A LETTER BY HIM. YOU CAN RUN A WORD MATCH IN YOUR CD WRITINGS AND TRY AND LOCATE THEM. HOPE IT HELPS. BUT I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE OF THE EXACT QUOTE I WROTE.

    ALSO YOU NEVER EXPLAINED WHY POPE VIGILUS BOYCOTTED THE COUNCIL WHERE REINCARNATION WAS DELETED FROM CHRISTIAN HISTORY??

    BHFU-At death the soul will be judged by what was done in the body.

    TRUE.

    It will be consigned to Heaven
    or Hell and will go there immediately unless the soul must first be purified on its way to Heaven in Purgatory.

    ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD IS NOT POSSIBLE. GOD CREATED US AND LOVES AS AS HIS CHILDREN. IT IS HYPOCRACY AND FAILURE IN GOD’S PART IF WE HIS CHILDREN CANT GO BACK TO HIM AND FIND HIM. AND GOD IS NEVER THOES TWO. WHEN YOU ADOPT A CHILD YOU DONT THROW HIM/HER AWAY IF SHE TURNS BAD. YOU PERSIST. SO DOES GOD LIFE AFTER LIFE. DEATH IS A HUMAN PHENOMENA ON EARTH. GOD KNOWS NO DEATH AND YES…IF EVER THERE IS ONE THING THAT GOD DOES NOT KNOW ITS DEATH!!! SO GOD HAS NO PROBLEM IN GIVING CHANCES!!! TO GOD TIME MAKES NO SENSE AS HE IS ETERNAL. THE SOUL IS A PART OF GOD HIMSELF(BUT NOT “GOD “) AND THUS REFLECT HIS QUALITIES!! (QUOTE FROM BIBLE-THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU…THE SOUL LINK. and this is a huge huge part of master’s teachings….that the kingdom of god is within. he talks of the soul,and the reason why i tell people not to think of themselves as pathetic sinners and how eternal hell is a big myth. SOUL BEING A PART OF GOD HIMSELF CANT BE SEPERATED FROM GOD ETERNALLY. FORGET BEING IN PAIN IN HELL. OUR SOULS OR WE ARE SUFFERING DAILY AS WE ARE NOT SPENDING TIME WITH GOD. AND THAT IS HELL’S SUFFERING) WHY DO YOU THINK THAT INSIDE US IS A PART WHICH WANTS TO BE GODLY?? IT IS US(AS SOULS) WHOES NATURAL TENDENCY IS TO BE GODLY IN OUR CHARACTERS.the two natures mentioned in the bible are soul and our own mind which bends into evil in the delusion that we are not-souls but mere bodies and sinful. the bible talks of these two opposing nature. the soul godly nature and the evil tendency to go against it as our sins bear instant enjoyment(but kills in the long run). the reason why peple sin is that it gives short term pleasure. but spiritual joy is permanent in nature and reveals god==BUT COMES IN THE LONG TERM. MOST PEOPLE DONT WANT TO HAVE PATIENCE AND BEFORE LONG LIFE IS OVER!! 95% DIE WITHOUT KNOWING GOD EVEN 5 % AND HOPE TO ENTER HEAVEN BY DECLAREING CHRIST AS THE SAVIOUR!! THAT IS HYPOCRACY. EFFORT TO KNOW GOD IS NEEDED. DECICATED TIME WITH GOD IS REQUIRED TO KNOW HIM. JUST A DECLARATION IS NOT ENOUGH TO GET TO HEAVEN. AND CHRIST OPENLY SAID SO. THE WHOLE LIFE AFTER BEING SPENT IN DOING OFFICE WORK AND HANDLEING THE DAILY CHALLENGES THAT LIFE OFFERS WITH NO MENTION OF GOD GETS NO TICKIT TO HEAVEN. PERSONAL EFFORT AND WILL TO KNOW GOD. THAT IS WHAT MATTERS TO THE FATHER. AND JESUS TAUGHT SO.

    HAD GOD CREATED ETERNAL HELL THEN THERE WOULD BE CLEAR RULES AS WHICH SINS ARE UNFORGIVABLE AND WOULD MEAN SURE HELL. THE SCOPE OF MERCY WOULD BE NON-EXSISTENT. IF YOU SAY THAT GOD’S MERCY DECIDES THAT(GOING TO HELL OR HEAVEN), THEN I WILL SAY THAT GOD MUST JUDGE ALL, THE SAME WAY TO AVIOD BEING A PARTIAL GOD.SO IF GOD FORGIVES A MUDERER AND LETS HIM UNDERGO PURGATORY AND HEAVEN THEN HE CAN NEVER CONDEMN ANOTHER MAN TO HELL FOR MURDER. SO IF HELL WAS SUCH A REALITY THEN GOD WOULD MAKE CHRIST WRITE BIG BIG BOOKS ON LAW INSTEAD OF THE RELIGION OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS THAT HE TAUGHT. ALSO HE WOULD DEFINE WHAT HE WOULD FORGIVE AND WHAT NOT. HIS MERCY LIMITS WOULD HAVE BEEN DEFINED. IF NO RULES ARE DEFINED THEN GOD HAS LEFT MAN IN DARKNESS ??? AND WHAT MAN CANT DO TO ANOTHER MAN OR OWN CHILDEREN HOW CAN GOD DO THE SAME TO US HIS OWN CHILDREN??? WHEN WILL THIS LOGIC BE COMPREHENDED?? FORGIVENESS AND LOVE ARE THE PRINCIPLES OF CHRISTANITY. NOT THE FALSE FEAR OF HELL THAT IS BEING INFUSED TO BELIVE WHAT CHRIST SAYS. WHEN MAN CANT FALL SO LOW AS TO BANISH HIS OWN CHILDREN FOREVER,HOW CAN GOD DO SO TO US HIS CHILDREN?? ITS TIME WE STOP LOOKING AT OURSELVES AS PATHETIC SINNERS INSTEAD OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD WE ARE. WE HAVE GONE OFF TRACK FROM GOD AND THUS WE ARE SINNING. THINKING OF SELF AS PATHETIC SINNER MAKES ONE ACCEPT THE SITUATION .

    THE BELEIF ” ONLY BELEIVING IN CHRIST WILL SAVE THE SOUL” IS JUST A ESCAPE ROUTE AND MAN MADE STUFF. DID NOT MY MASTER SHOUT WITH ALL MIGHT “NOT ALL WHO CALLS ME LORD WILL GO INTO HEAVEN BUT ONLY THEM WHO FOLLOW WHAT I SAY AND DO WILL ENTER HEAVEN”?? IT IS OUR ACTION THAT DECIDES OUR ENTRY TO HEAVEN. (IF YOU QUOTE WHAT CHRIST SAID ABOUT HIS DEATH I WILL EXPLAIN THAT. CHRIST DID INDEED SAY THAT HE WAS DYING FOR SINS…BUT IT IS MORE DEEPER. IF YOU QUOTE I WILL EXPLAIN) .JESUS GUIDED US TO THE PATH…HE PROMISES AND ACTUALLY HELPS HIS DECIPLES IN THE PATH. BUT OUR ENTRY IS BASED ON OUR ACTIONS AND IF WE DONT DO THEM RIGHT WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.AND IT WAS CHRIST WHO HIMSELF SAID THAT WE REAP WHAT WE SOW. AND SAY FOR EXAMPLE– WE SLAPPED AND DIED WITHOUT GETTING ONE BACK..THEN GOD ,ACCRDING TO YOU ,WILL SEND PEOPLE TO PURGATORY TO GET PAID BACK OR PURIFIED? IT IS ACTUALLY EARTH THAT SOULS HAVE TO COME TO TO GET THAT BACK. NOT PURGATORY… .ELSE JUSUS WOULD HAVE TOLD OF PURGATORY JUST AS HE SPEAKS OF HEAVEN. IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE I HAVE FOUND NO MENTION OF THE WORD PURGATORY FROM HIS LIPS!!! AND ALL YOUR SAID ABOUT PURGATORY HAS NO MENTION IN THE BIBLE.GOD FORGIVES A LOT OF SINS UNCONDITIONALLY WHEN HE SEE THAT THE CONSIQUENCE OF THE SIN NEED NOT BE FELT BY THE SOUL FOR ITS PERFECTION !!(SAY ANGER WAS THE QUALITY THAT THE SOUL HAD FORSAKEN.(THE REASON WHY HE HAD SLAPPED BEFORE). THUS GOD WOULD LET HIM GO WITHOUT A SLAP AS GOD IS SURE THAT THE SOUL HAS LEARNT ITS LESSONS)

    At the end of time, after the final judgement the body will be resurrected and joined once again to the soul for all eternity either in Heaven or Hell.

    DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THIS BODY WHICH YOU ARE IN?? RELIGION AND SCIENCE ARE NO DIFFERENT. ONE PROVES THE OTHER. THEY ARE THE BEST OF PALS!!! MANS BODY BECOMES MOLECULES AND THE DESIGN IS BASED ON DNA. GOD TALKS OF THE RESURRECTION OF US(SOULS) FROM SPIRITUAL DARKNESS…ALSO A BODY IS REQUIRED TO BE BORN (THOU GOD CAN REARRANGE THE MOLECULES AND ATOMS BY HIS WILL TO FORM A BODY LIKE THIS)…..BUT BHFU IF YOU ARE ALIVE AND CONCIOUS AFTER DEATH WITHOUT A BODY WHY WILL GOD GIVE YOU A BODY AGAIN ?? BODY IS THERE FOR SEX PLEASURES(AND HAVE CHILDREN TO PROPAGATE THE SPECIES) OR TO USE FOR SPIRITUAL PURPOSE ON EARTH!! ITS JUST THAT HUMANS WANT A BODY VERY BADLY AND CANT THINK OF LIFE WITHOUT IT. THEY ARE ATTACHED TO THE BODY AS THEY THINK THEY ARE THE BODY AND NOT THE IMMORTAL SOUL!! THUS THIS CONCEPT THAT AT THE END OF TIME YOU WILL REGAIN YOU BODY HAS BEEN MADE UP!! THE FEAR OF DEATH AND AFTER LIFE MAKES MAN CONFIRM AS FAITH THAT THE BODY WILL BE BACK AFTER DEATH. THAT IS HOW MAN DECIDED TO DEAL WITH FEAR OR MYSTERY OF DEATH. JESUS NEVER TALKED OF GETTING THE BODY BACK.THE REALITY IS THAT WE AS SOULS DO NOT NEED BREATH TO SURVIVE AND THE PAIN OF NON-BREATHING DOES NOT EXSIST WITHOUT A BODY!!

    I WANT YOU TO QUOTE WHERE IT SAYS :

    At the end of time, after the final judgement the body will be resurrected and joined once again to the soul for all eternity either in Heaven or Hell.

    WITHOUT THE SCRIPTURES I CANNOT REALLY TAKE THE POINT FURTHUR AND YOU KNOW HOW IN THIS FAST LIFE WE HAVE LITTLE TIME TO TYPE ENTIRE PASSAGES. I WILL SAY MORE ONCE YOU LINK OR POST THE PASSAGES,AS YOU HAVE ALL QUOTES AT HAND.

    BFHU: Unpleasant. Pain is used to image this unpleasantness as in burning if fire. Regret, possibly very much sorrow. Fear? no b/c the soul knows it will be in Heaven. Loving guidance? I don’t think so. What it is exactly only God knows

    THIS DEFINATION IS MAN MADE STUFF AND HAS NO MENTION IN THE BIBLE. PURGATORY IS ITSELF MAN MADE. GIVE A BIBLE TO A PAGAN. LET HIM COME BACK WITH WHAT HE HAS LEARNT. PURGATORY WILL BE ABSENT. INSTEAD WE SHOULD SIMPLY BELEVE WHAT CHRIST WARNED US,THAT WE PAY FOR WHAT WE DO…GOOD WITH GOOD AND BAD WITH BAD….REINCARNATION IS HOW WE PAY FOR BAD AND GOOD IN THE NEXT LIFE IF THIS LIFE COULD NOT PAY US BACK. HOW MUCH GOOD WE DO IN OUR BRIEF 100 YEARS ON EARTH TO GET A HUGE DIS-PROPORTIONATE REWARD AS ETERNAL HEAVENLY ENJOYMENT? THE PROBLEM LIES IN THE FACT THAT NO ONE CAN TRUELY DEFINE THE REAL MEANING OF SALVATION….YET THE ENTIRE BIBILE TALKS OF THE SIMPLE TRUE DEFINATION. TO KNOW GOD IS SALVATION. NOT A HEAVENLY PLACE WHERE YOU FIND GOD AS A HUMAN LIKE PERSON SITTING IN A THRONE TO MAKE FRIENDSHIP WITH YOU ..U SAY LATER THAT ALL TRILLION OF SOULS ARE NEW. THEN IMAGINE CONDITION IN HEAVEN….IF A FEW BILLION SOULS REACH HEAVEN AND YOU WANT 5 MINUTES WITH GOD YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT 5*2 BILLION MINUTES TO MEET YOUR BELOVED!!! AND IF GOD’S WORK IS TO KEEP GIVING 5 MINUTES TO HIS TRILLION CHILDERN WHAT ABOUT HIS CHILDREN (SOULS) IN HELL??? WAS HE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FOR THEM TOO AS HE HAD PROMISED TO HELP ALL SOULS AND CALLS HIMSELF MERCYFUL?? WILL YOU NOT REACH OUT TO YOUR CRYING DAUGHTER IF SHE BURNS OR IS IN PAIN?? CAN YOU REMAIN SILENT?? THE FACT IS WE PERSONIFY GOD ACCORDING TO OUR HUMAN COMPREHENSION!! WE MAKE GOD AS PER AS OUR MINDS CAPASITY. BUT TRUTH NEVER CHANGES ACCORDING TO THE FANCIES OF MAN-KIND. GOD HAS QUALITIES WHICH ARE TO BE FELT AND NOT REASONED AS MANS LIMITED MIND CANNOT COMPREHEND THE INFITIE FATHER……GOD IS OMNIPRESENT IE. PRESENT EVERY WHERE…THAT INCLUDES ALL AROUND THE UNIVERSE INCLUDING EARTH AND HELL AND HEAVEN!!! GOD IS IN ALL HIS CREATION…THE BIBLE SPEAKS SO TREMENDOUSLY OF THIS FACT!! I CAN QUOTE ALL I SAY. I AM NOT PRESENTY QUOTING AS I FEEL THAT YOU MIGHT FIND THE QUOTES. BUT IF YOU WANT OVER A FEW DAYS I WILL COMPLIE THE QUOTES!! GOD REACHES HIS INDIVUDUAL DEVOTEES WHEN THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DEVELOPED. DEATH IS NOT NECESSARY FOR THAT . EVEN ON EARTH GOD CAN APPEAR AS HE HAD DONE TO ALL SAINTS.

    BFHU: No God taught it to us. The Jews believe also in a purification before Heaven. What is purified is the consequences of sin that are temporal. Jesus paid the eternal consequences for sin.

    I HAD QUOTED A JEWISH SOURCE WHERE IT TALKS IN SUPPORT OF REINCARNATION. BUT I CANNOT QUOTE ANY FURTHUR FROM JEWISH SCRIPTURES AS I DONT HAVE THE SOURCE.(AND I AM NOT WELL READ IN THEM) SO I SAY WHY NOT POINT TO CHRIST WHOES TEACHINGS WE BOTH KNOW WELL…WHERE HAS HE MENTIONED THIS IN HIS 33 YEARS OF LIFE TIME??? ALREADY THE SMALL BIBLE COMPILES THE MAIN TEACHINGS OF MASTER…IF PURGATORY WAS HIS MAIN TEACHING IT WOULD HAVE FOUND MENTION IN THE 33 YEARS OF LIFE OF JESUS….HE WOULD NOT LEAVE SUCH AN IMPORTANT ASPECT UNSPOKEN OF, INSTEAD OF TALKING OF THE ASPECT AND NATURE OF GOD AND HEAVEN AS HE DID.HE WOULD HAVE DECLARED IN A DIRECT STATEMENT TO WARN US OF PURGATORY. JESUS CAME TO SATISFY THE SPIRITUAL NEEDS OF ALL PEOPLE. HE KNEW EVERYTHING. BUT SINCE HE DID NOT MENTION PURGATORY WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT WAY OUT FOR AN IMPURE SOUL HE WOULD HAVE SAID A LOT ON IT.I ALWAYS SEE AND WONDER HOW MANKIND MAKES UP STORIES TO FIT ITS LOGIC.

    THUS:
    BHFU-No, we all suffer first to atone for the temporal consequences of sin, either in this life or the next, in Purgatory

    PURGATORY IS THE NEXT LIFE ON EARTH. ELSE CHRIST WOULD HAVE OPENLY TALKED OF PURGATOR ALONG WITH HEAVEN.

    BFHU: Correct. We will not destroy Heaven by anger b/c we won’t have anything to be angry at since we shall all be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

    PERFECTION LIKE THE FATHER COMES ONLY WHEN YOUR HEART HAS BEEN CHANGED FROM WITHIN OUT OF LOVE AND WILLINGNESS AND YOU REALIZE YOUR SOUL NATURE(THE SECOND SELF AS SPOKEN OF IN THE BIBLE) AND ONLY AFTER YOU GAIN SALVATION IE. YOU KNOW GOD!!….YOU DONT BECOME AN ANGLE AFTER DEATH. RIGHT NOW THE PERSON YOU ARE IS A PERSON WHO IS THINKING THAT “I AM STOOPED IN SIN”….IF PURGATORY WAS THE WAY TO BE LIKE THE FATHER THEN HELL WILL HAVE NO EXISTENCE….LOOK HONESLTY…THEN THE WAY WOULD HAVE BEEN 3 STEPS:
    …DIE…
    PURGATORY,…
    .HEAVEN!!

    PURGATORY IS FOR SOULS WHO HAVE SINNED AND ARE NOT PERFECT. WHY THEN HELL IS THERE?? IF PURGATORY MAKES ALL SOULS FIT FOR HEAVEN WHY HAVE A HELL??? OR CAN ANY MAN DARE CLAIM THAT I SINNED LESS THAN THAT MAN AND THUS I GO TO PURGATORY AND THAT MAN GOES TO HELL!!! THE NATURE OF PURGATORY IS SO MAN MADE THAT EVERY ASPECT OF IT CAN BE REDICULED WITH EARTHLY COMMON SENSE. BUT CAN ANYONE DARE REDICULE HEAVEN?? NO …CHRIST SPOKE OF IT AND THUS IT IS TRUE!! THE WORD PURGATORY NEVER CAME OUT OF MY MASTER’S MOUTH.
    SOULS THAT DIE WIHTOUT FRIENDSHIP WITH GOD ARE GIVEN A NEXT LIFE TO CHANGE. GOD NEVER FORSAKES A SOUL..IN LIFE OR AFTER DEATH. HOW CAN GOD BE SO CRUEL TO FORSAKE ETERNALLY A GOOD MAN AT HEART WHO WAS SAY FOR EXAMPLE CLUBBED DOWN BY CIRCUMSTANCES JUST LIKE JOB(SO HE SINNED BAD AND DECLARED ETERNAL HATE FOR GOD BEFORE DEATH) BUT DIED BEFORE THE FATHER COULD RETURN HIS PATIENCE??

    : Fire is a metaphore most likely to illustrate the horror of damnation. God does not consigne people to Hell they chose it by their life in the body

    IF MAN CAN CHOOSE HELL BY ONLY HIS OWN ACTIONS , THEN SIMILARLY WE CAN CHOOSE HEAVEN BY GOOD ACTIONS ONLY!! WHY NEED CHRIST?? WHY WILL A LITTLE BABY WHO DIES IN AN HOUR OF BIRTH NEED CHRIST?? HE HAS NO ACTION….SO THE DEATH OF CHRIST IS OF NO MEANING TO HIM…SO HE GOES TO HEAVEN!! THE ENTIRE CONCEPT THAT THE DEATH OF CHRIST FORGAVE ALL SINS OF HIS FUTURE BELEIVERS(IE. PEOPLE WHO CALL CHRIST AS SAVIOUR) IS A LIE(FORGIVENESS FROM CHRIST COMES WHEN HE SEES A SOUL LEANING TOWARDS GOD,AND IS CASE SPECIFIC) ….THEN NO ONE SAYING “CHRIST IS MY MASTER WILL BE IN HELL” EVEN IF HE SINS….AND IF BY SAYING “LORD CHRIST” WE ENTER HEAVEN THEN WE DO NOT REMAIN RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS AND IT GOES AGAINST MY MASTERS SAYING ….”ALL THAT CALLS ME LORD WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN BUT ONLY HE WHO HAVE FOLLOWED WHAT I HAV SAID”…MIND YOU …NOT GODS GRACE …BUT BY ACTIONS WE DO ACCORDING TO CHRISTS TEACHING. GRACE COMES AS YOU TRY TO KNOW GOD. SAY FOR EXAMPLE YOU NEED FOOD TO MEDITATE AND HAVE NO FOOD. I CAN PERSONALLY GURANTEE YOU THAT FOOD WILL REACH YOU TO HELP YOU MEDITATE ON GOD.THAT IS HOW GOD HELPS IN THE PATH TO SALVTION. ON THE FINAL DAY WHEN GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO A SOUL THAT ACT OF GOD IS FULLY GRACE. AS NOTHING WE DO CAN REALLY FORCE GOD T O REVEAL HIMSELF. BUT HE SEES THE EFFORT. THAT WAS WHAT CHRIST SAID WHEN HE SAID THAT WITHOUT GOD’S GRACE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO REACH HEAVEN. HE NEVER SUBSTITUED MANS OWN EFFORT WITH HIS SACRIFICE AND FULL GOD’S GRACE.

    Each soul is judged based on its knowledge of God and what it did in response to that knowledge. Christians have the best map to Heaven but God judges on what we knew, not what we did not know.

    WHAT ABOUT A PERSON WHO NEVER HEARD OF CHRISTANITY AND DIES?? HEAVEN OR HELL?? LUCK SINNER!! HE LEAD A PAGAN LIFE AND IS IN HEAVEN JUST BECAUSE GOD GAVE HIM A FREE CHANCE TO SIN ON EARTH AS GOD MADE HIM BE BORN AT A PLACE WHERE THE VERY MENTION OF CHRIST DOES NOT EXIST…LIKE THE JUNGLES WHERE NO MISSIONARY HAS EVER SET FOOT. NICE LOGIC!! YOU MAKE GOD LOOK SO PARTIAL….HE BURDENED ALL CHRISTIANS WITH RULES AND YET WILL HE WILL ALLOW SAY A PAGAN SEX ADDICT AND LAIR AND MURDERER TO GO TO HEAVEN JUST BECAUSE IT WAS SO UNFORTUNATE THAT HE NEVER HEARD OF GOD AS HIS PARENTS WERE SAY FOR EXAMPLE ATHIESTS AND SINNERS!! VERY NICE GOD….U SURE CAN DO THINGS SO UNJUSTLY..!! NICE LOGIC!!

    BFHU: Yes, many souls live a day or less.

    SOULS ARE IMMORTAL….AND YOU ARE MAKING GOD PARTIAL…NOW THAT IS AGAINST HIS NATURE….HE CANNOT DO WHAT HE TELLS US NOT TO DO(IE. BE PARTIAL)…HE TELLS US TO FOLLOW HIS OWN NATURE IN A NUT SHELL….SO THE QUESTION OF “GOD CAN DO ANYTHING” DOES NOT APPLY HERE!! GOD TELLS US TO BE LIKE HIM !!

    The conscious part of our being doesn’t wait billions of years or even thousands of years. Bodies, however may have to wait along time for resurrection

    DEAR BHFU…..WE ARE THE SOULS AND THIS BODY HAS NO SIGNIFICANCE!!! OUR BODIES BECOME MOLECULES AFTER WE DIE AND THERE IS NO NEED OF THIS BODY ONCE WE KNOW GOD!! IF BILLIONS OF YEARS CAN BE SPENT WITHOUT A BODY THEN GOD HAS NO NEED TO GIVE US A PERFECT BODY AGAIN AS WE ARE SOULS WITHOUT BREATH!! BODY IS JUST FOR US TO BE ON EARTH!! …MAN HAS INSTALLED THIS NOTION AS WE ALL THINK WE ARE BODIES AND ARE AFRIAD TO THIK WITHOUT IT !! THE RESSURECTION HAS A MUCH MUCH DEEPER MEANING THAN THE NOTION OUR BODIES WILL BE RESURECTED!! THE BODY IS MOST IMPERFECT COMPARED TO US SOULS!! ASK ANY DOCTOR!! I WILL ONCE AGAIN ASK YOU TO QUOTE THE LINES ABOUT RESSURECTION!! I KNOW YOU WILL QUOTE THE PLACE WHERE IT SAYS WHAT YOU WROTE!! BUT THE MEANING IS MORE DEEPER!!

    BHFU-Smoking is not a sin.

    THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE IN THE STORY.

    BHFU-Purgatory is not for convincing someone to change. At death their chances end. Purgatory is only for those who die in friendship with God and desire to please Him and be purified. Purgatory is not coercive, it is purifying. The soul though suffering is joyful b/c it knows it will soon be in Heaven.

    MOST HORRIFYING SINNERS DIE WANTING HEAVEN AND GOD AS A FRIEND(THUS MAYBE AT THE LAST SECOND THEY SAY “CHRIST” AND DIE..BUT WHEN HE MEETS MASTER …HE WILL BLESS HIM FOR HIS DECLARATION. BUT HEAVEN?? NO …THE SOUL CANT KNOW GOD WHILE FLAWS REMAIN IN IT. SO IT WILL BE SENT BACK ON EARTH TO LEARN HOW TO REMOVE THE FLAWS. THUS CHRIST SAID…NOT ALL THAT CALLS ME LORD WILL ENTER HEAVEN….NEAR DEATH MAKES A MAN SEE THE FUTILITY OF HIS LIFE IF NOT LIVED WELL AND FOR GOD…SO BEFORE DEATH A MAN SAYS SORRY TO GOD IN EFFECT ACCEPTING GOD AS HIS SAVIOR …IF YOU FEAR PEOPLE WITH HELL THEN WHY TEMPT THEM WITH PURGATORY!! YOU BOTH DENY AND CONFIRM HELL AND END UP IGNOREING CHRIST…HE SAID OUR ACTIONS HELPS US CHOOSE TO KNOW GOD!!! HE NEVER SPOKE OF ETERNAL SEPERATION!! ANY SUFFERING IS NOT PLEASANT AND JOYFUL…AND YOU REALLY DONT HAVE AN ANSWER IN THE BIBLE OR ANYWHERE ELSE AS TO WHO MAKES SOULS SUFFER IN PURGATORY AND WHY(HE WILL INCUR SINS TO DO SO,,AND BE PHYCOLOGICALLY BROKEN TOO) ???

    LOOK ANOTHER POINT ABOUT HELL :

    YOU DEFINE SEPERATION FROM GOD AS SUFFERING:

    ON EARTH MOST PEOPLE ARE SEPERATED FROM GOD AND DONT THINK ABOUT HIM UNTIL SUNDAYS!! SOME DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT HIM AT ALL BUT HAVE GAINED HUGE MATERIAL REWARDS FOR HIS HARD WORK!! HE DOES NOT MISS GOD!! AND IS HAPPY BECAUSE HIS HARD EARNED HONEST MONEY IS FULFILLING HIS EVERY DESIRE….

    I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN A DISTANT FRIEND MUCH MUCH ELDER TO ME . HE WAS A VERY HAPPY MAN TO HAVE LIVED LIFE WITHOUT GOD…HE WAS HONEST…GOOD HEARTED…AND HAD LOTS AND LOTS OF MONEY…HE DIED LIVING A LIFE AS SAID BY CHRIST(HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN)…AND HE WAS A GOOD MAN INDEED…BEFORE DEATH HE SAID” I HAVE LIVED LIFE WELL AND AM HAPPY TO HAVE SPENT MY LIFE THIS WAY!!” SO DO YOU THINK HE WILL REACH HELL EVEN AFTER LEAVING A LIFE MOSTLY SPENT IN HELPING THE POOR AND NEEDY??? HE FOLLOWED UNKNOWINGLY MANY OF CHRIST’S TECHINGS. HIS SENSE OF MORALITY CAME FROM THE CONCEPT THAT A LIFE SHOULD BE LIVED SO THAT OTHERS ARE HAPPY. HE WAS JUST AT HEART AND A NICE MAN. BUT HE DISOWNED GOD AND SAID HE WAS GOOD AS HE FELT NICE BEING GOOD. HE WAS I FEEL ,ADDICTED TO THE LOVE OTHERS USED TO GIVE HIM BECAUSE OF HIS GOODNESS?? DO YOU THINK THAT GOD WILL LET HIM GO TO HEAVEN?? I WILL SAY NO !! AS HE HAS FLAWS. HE WILL BE ON EARTH NEXT LIFE TO LEARN TO LOVE GOD.

    AND SINCE HE DID SO MUCH GOOD HE WILL BE RICH NEXT LIFE TOO(THIS IS JUST MY SAYING…GOD DECIDED WHAT HAPPENES ..NOT ME)!! BUT SINCE HE DID GOOD I CAN SURELY SAY HE WILL BE PAID BACK.

    THUS THE SAYING OF CHRIST WILL COME TRUE. NOT ALL WHO CALL ME CHRIT WILL ENTER HEAVEN. HE MUST REMOVE HIS FLAWS BY DOING WHAT CHRIST SAYS AND THEN WILL HE GET TO KNOW GOD(SALVATION) AND YES A HEAVEN.

    IN THE MIDDLE YOU HAD WRITTEN A HUGE PORTION WHICH WAS A QUOTE FROM Romans 1:18

    THE ENTIRE PORTION TALK TO BELEIVERS AND NOT UNBELEIVERS. AND ANYWAY THAT WAS THE STATE OF WICKEDNESS IN THOES TIMES!! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE APPEARANCE OF CHRIST AND SIMILAR POWERFUL SOULS AND SAINTS MEAN?? IT MEANS GOD IS DIRECTLY INTERFERING WITH MANKINDS PROGESS AND HAS BEEN MOVED BY MAN’S PLIGHT TO SEND A SAVIOUR TO GUIDE THEM BACK. SO SAINTS COME TO REMIND US THAT EVEN IN DARK TIMES THE BIBLE STANDS TRUE . SO MAN BECOMES AS INDECENT AS Romans 1:18 SAYS.

    THUS YOU CANNOT USE THIS TO ANSWER :
    is god so partial that some who are lucky to hear of christ gets a ticket to heaven ..while the child who dies without hearning about christ goes to hell!!

    ALSO I WILL TAKE LONGER TO REPLY AS I AM QUITE BUSY RIGHT NOW.

  31. CL: The text says NOTHING about ANOTHER womb.
    The quote:

    BFHU:

    Naked I came from my mother’s womb and naked I will return.

    That is the only part that is a type of poetry in my translation. But even if you read it as prose it can’t be literal b/c we DO NOT RETURN TO OUR MOTHER’S WOMB. And as I said the text says absolutely NOTHING about another womb.

    In addition to that one cannot RETURN to a place one has NEVER BEEN!

    So the passage must be interpreted and yet a literal interpretation does not align with reality.
    You are reading into it and interpreting one way, I another. I have historical and Church evidence for my interpretation. You have only your own authority which I am not bound to accept.

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose going forth have been from old, from everlasting(Micah 5:2)

    Jesus is a RULER. He is the King of Kings. He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Divine and has eternally existed as divine. He in humility joined His divine nature to a fully human nature born of Mary. At His incarnation He became God/Man—fully God and Fully Man.

    Christ was NOT a unique soul declared by God to be His son. Jesus was the eternal son of God. The eternal 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.

    Jesus, born in Bethlehem, came forth from Bethlehem. His birth in Bethlehem fulfilled this prophecy in Micah.

    On your other points I reject your beliefs and arguments and see no point in discussing them further. We will have to agree to disagree
    Kyrie Eleison

  32. dear bhfu….
    i think you put it rightly “We will have to agree to disagree”. but it was really great discussing everything with you. ultimately its is upto christ himself to guide us in our paths and i am sure he will guide us both to where he wants!! i wish you all the best for the future and hope you will advance spiritually to see the glory of our lord!! it is that love which is i feel is most important and if you have love for christ(as you do) then the rest will be taken care of by him… :-)..take care..!!

    as for happy,
    Are you saying here that taking a soul out of a damaged body and in your belief it is reicarnated to another “good body”?

    no..if a soul has to have a flawed body according to past wrongs then it will have it. (if you think it will escape everytime with abortion, then a time will come when deformities will come after birth. god’s ways are fool proof and so i never justified abortion on grounds which you say and have misunderstood)). abortion has nothng to do with this.i had said this to explain why a soul gets a deformed body and yet god remains just(as he has no hand in it). i had only said– if the parents cannot give the proper care needed or is not rich enough or willing enough (and plans to abondon the child to the mercy of nature as in 3rd world countries ) or they are not willing to be young parents(and thus abondons anyway) then they should not go ahead with the birth and take the sin of not careing on their heads!! europe has adoption facilities but sadly africa and many easten countries do not have them. the soul in a deformed body suffers a lot because of lack of medicines or money and socially too. thus if the parents cant really afford to give a decent life or are unwilling…i had preffered abortion.thus in short if the parents are not willing to have a child then instead of abondoning the child to die its better to abort. the sin of leaving a innocent,helpless child to die on earth is a much worse sin and is really murder.why give life to let it die was my main point.

    Again, my point being why do you think it would be ANY persons call on if a body is damaged or too damaged to live?

    well, doctors can help and past cases do give a precedence. and finance and willingness needs to be taken into account to see if the soul can be saved via medical aid which is soo costly. willingness is a great factor. without these the soul suffers unnecessarily and death is often a painful and unavoidable reality. so why let the suffering come if you know you cant stop it?? many people are not educated enough to take a child to the hospital to be born. i am speaking keeping the poor in my heart. my sayings are more true for them uc. africa, and many easter countries do not have the medical aids and money and education.

    also i would point out ….when a mother and child cannot both survive. then who are society to call for the life of the child and death of the mother(when her life could have been saved by an abortion) ??? all people supporting that society takes the sin of judgment. how can people call the mother less worthy than the child?? according to you the child is innocent as the soul had nothing to do with its coming. according to me so is the mother innocent as she has nothing to do with the deformity. so who wins?? i will support the mother as for her. the life has commenced with her birth to this world. but the soul in the womb is yet to start life on earth.(and has no complete body and pain registering system if very early) and even if you disagree would you take the risk to judge between lifes?? i will, for yor good ,ask you to refrain from becoming a party to such a choice where you . influenced by your decision(without spiritual knowledge about what really happens). as you action might put you in the same shoes as the person for whome you will take a choice for(or push to make a choice). i am not cursing by the way. 🙂 i pray you never have to face anything like i warned…but jesus himself taught -we reap what we sow.(and warned us agaist judging without complete depth of knowledge or acc, to him with logs in our eyes!!) so if you sow your decision to kill one to save the other …there is always a risk that you might be put in a situation like that..either as test or punishment. this cause and effect is a spiritual pillar and it is very stern part of the spiritual world. thus i always say..do not let your choice affect others free will. warn but never force and impose opinions. its all very complex. bhfu was a wonderful person to understand(agree or disagree) many things i said.

    and these laws of cause and effect (reap what you sow) are extreamly complex and only saintly people with devine powers can really explain all the working of the laws in details. i only outlined …the details is complex.(and the saints can warn about the future as they know the laws. it is a science like thing. but rarely will you find a saint speaking of them. the knowledge of the laws and “their mind in god” helps them make accurate predictions. many christian saints knew this and thus predicted wisely!!! )

    If your point is that “their love for God would be made perfect by removing flaws”??? What?

    the flaws i was talking about have nothing to do with abortion or the souls who have a deformed body. these flaws(negative character/habits/thoughts/action/deed in mankind) are there in every soul and these need to be deleted to know god(salvation). i think you joined me and bhfu very late and thus did not understand my points. flaws are negative qualities in the self (like anger,bad-habits,jaleousy etc) all of which seperates man form god and makes the mind restless(one of the reasons of seperation). A restless mind can never know god. most people think of god as an answering machine. they pray for things as their minds are filled with worries about life.worries also ruins health which furthur hamper efforts to pray and keep the mind attuned with god.god helps but he feels far more happier when a soul prays to want to know him than asking things from him. asking things and not asking to know god is the result of man’s suffering that he does not want but has called upon himself due to some wrong he had done. so he ends up praying for reprive all the time instead of trying to know god himself. thus till the flaws are there in the soul it cannot know god as the flaws create a mindset which cannnot let the mind be with(attune with ) god as they are negative in vibration compared to the spiritual holy positive vibrations.(eg. an angry man can never pray). this was the flaw i was talking of removing to know god. it has nothing to do with deformed bodies or imperfect love. it is there in every soul who is yet to reach salvation. some has more and some less.

    We have been counsellors for mentally handicapped/physically handicapped adults at a camp. I would venture to say that their love for the Lord might outshine many “normal” adults that I know.

    true…as their minds are incapable of deceit which comes through logic,intelligence and reason. remember christ saying…you have to be like a child to enter heaven…here by child he meant innocent and pure …without the negative imperfections that comes with age. so even with all faculties of mind and brain if you can behave without deceit and with purity and right actions then you will please god. 🙂

    Well, how do you know the plans that God has for the unborn?

    well,sometimes logic and common sense helps. the will of the parents also indicate the future. god rearely will come and tell things. we have free will and he never interferes. so i cannot answe this in a general way. all i can say is each case should be judged with the conditions and environment. a parent who says they will abondon the child to die if not aborted cannot be stopped. and if this be in a 3rd world country and i wont repeat my sad and gory examples….what according to you had god planned for them.???he did not stop the cold or the dogs. am so sorry for them.if only their mother would have aborted instead of trying to escape sin of abortion and getting the sin of painful murder on her head… i hope it clarifies all you did not understand…!!

    I know babies who are born into families who have the means to take care of them and actually plan them who might be the most abused of all.

    rest assured that the families will face the warth of god and suffer for their worng deeds

    . in this topic we all can show stories from both point of views. thus i always say each case will have to be judged seperately.

  33. C.L.”no..if a soul has to have a flawed body according to past wrongs then it will have it.”

    So, my hearing impaired daughter is flawed because of wrongs in a past life?

    C.L. “I think you joined me and bhfu very late and thus did not understand my points”

    No, I followed from the very first. I just commented very late.

    C.L.”most people think of god as an answering machine. they pray for things as their minds are filled with worries about “.

    I must disagree. I think you are selling ALOT of people short by making this statement.

    No, I don’t agree with your points, but, Like bfhu said we could go on forever, we will have to agree to disagree.

    Blessings to you.

  34. Jesus was Man, The Son of God, Was with God before time was time.

    The fact that 2000 years ago if a women would have been made a priest or elder (depending on translation)
    It would have been againts the Law of the Land and of the Bible. The early Jews would have never converted.
    They would have thought that Christainty was just another greek barbaric pagan religion.

    But today thats acually a good question?
    It would be hard to give women all rights in the Roman Catholic Church. Since marrage is not aloud there would be no Male to overseer her in Spirtual Matters.

    In reform circles Women can be Pastors and Elders, Since we are no longer under law but are conformed to His Spirit. But mostliky they have to be Married or Widowed as do men. Depends on tradition. If not married mostliky a assembly will never ordain them.

  35. that’s good, thanks for your share,.. I think this is great blog

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