Mary is Not Godly or Holy???!!!


From a Comment originally on Scripture Disproves Purgatory?

Q. Mary was a sinner just like you and me.

A. How do you KNOW? Adam and Eve were created sinless. That is how we were all supposed to be. Mary was fully human exactly the way God intended.  God intended and created human beings to BE sinless.

Q. Mary is by no means Godly or Holy. The Immaculate Conception if a farce, unbiblical and elevates Mary to a level that even she would call blasphemy.

A. Mary was not Godly or Holy? Why do you say this? Where in Scripture does it say “Mary sinned” or “Mary was sinful just like everyone else”? For that matter where on earth does it say Mary was not holy or Godly?

By what authority do you believe God could not have created Mary without a sin nature?
Bead From Heaven: I understand that from your perspective it seems like we belittle Christ’s sacrifice because of your theology. But, remember, your understanding of scripture is only 500 years old.

Comment: My understanding of scripture 500 years old. That is laughable. The Bible existed for centuries before the Catholic church hijacked it. My understanding of scripture is based on the gifts given to me by the Holy Spirit which I was baptized into through my loving comitted relationship to Christ.

Response: The Protestant sects believe in doctrines that are only 500 years old or less. In fact, some of them, like the end times rapture are only about 100 years old. That is what I meant. Our doctrines are nearly 2000 years old. Of course I realize the Bible is more than 500 years old. But Protestant doctrine is not. And who do you think had the Bible “before the Catholic Church hijacked it”?

Comment: Your “little sacrifice” mean absolutely nothing, nada, zero to an Almighty Holy God who offered up his one and only son for our sins. He is angered by your belief that you can even compete with HIS sacrifice.

Response: He probably would be angered if we were competing with His sacrifice. But, believe me we don’t compete with Him at all. In fact, we are able to do nothing apart from the empowering of Christ.

Comment: You may have your traditions which help you to feel more “religous”, but they do nothing to add to Christ’s sacrifice or to aid in your salvation. In fact they will aid in many Catholics damnation.

Response: Our Traditions are nothing more or less than the very teaching of the Apostles handed down to us orally at first and mostly written down in the first 800 years of Church history.

Comment: I have a complete understanding of Catholicism. I went to Catholic university, study theology there, and married a Catholic who has since left the church and has a fuller more complete relationship with Christ than he EVER had in the Catholic church. After reading the entire Bible for himself he is angry at the lies told him and how the R.C. has manipulated God’s word.

Response: Well, he is much more likely to have been told lies about the Catholic Faith than to have found that the Bible reveals lies in Catholic Doctrine. I am curious as to why you left the Church.

“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church – which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

-Archbishop Fulton Sheen

Comment: Your search for ‘truth’ does it extend past the media provided by Catholics?

Response: Yes. I spent40 years as a very devout Protestant. Suspicious of the Catholic Church and I was sola scriptura to the max.

Comment: How do you answer to the lies with which the Catholic church built is power? The Catholic church even admits to the numerous forgeries which were used to further the papacy! I believe that the Catholic church would NEVER have amounted to the power and world prestige that it has had it spread it’s blasphemous gospel honestly.

Response: I am afraid that someone has taught you lies about the Catholic Church. But, I am sure they were just trusting whoever taught them these lies.

Comment: Why make it a law to keep the Bible out of the lay peoples hands?

Response: The Church tried to prevent lay people from reading the Bible only at the time of the “Reformation” because she did not want her children to be carried away with the heresies spawned by Luther et. al. That was a very wise and reasonable response to the rebellion that began as a reformation. Other than that, the Church NEVER kept the Bible away from anyone. The Bible was even chained in the church to make it accessible to people. If it hadn’t been chained it would have been stolen b/c it was so valuable. I would recommend for you to read Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham

Comment: Why kill people who had Bibles?

Response: The Catholic Church never killed people b/c they had a Bible.

Comment: Why prevent the Bible from being translated into the language of the people who desired to read it?

Response: The Catholic Church translated the Bible into various languages long before Martin Luther , Wycliffe or Jan Hus were born.

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15 Responses

  1. >”Mary is Not Godly or Holy”

    Kindly identify the woman in Rev 12 who “… gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.”

    If the child is Jesus, then the woman is Mary and the Bible testifies that Mary is in heaven. Revelation 21:27 states that nothing unclean (unholy) shall enter heaven. If Mary is in heaven then she is holy.

    “But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.'” – Acts 11:9

    “is” is the present tense of the verb “to be” meaning currently/ at this time. Based on scripture alone, Mary IS Holy and all generations are to call her “blessed” according to Luke 1:48.

    God bless

  2. I believe that all men were born into Adam’s sin excluding Jesus. So therefore I believe that Mary did have a sinful nature, but then again all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

  3. Can you support this with scripture? Where does scripture say Mary sinned?

    The scripture that says “all have sinned” makes no exception for Jesus. So if there is one exception despite the fact that scripture says “all have sinned” then there is no reason there cannot be one more exception–Mary. Unless, of course, you can find a scripture that says Mary sinned.

  4. Answer:

    “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.” (Rom 3:23-25)

    So in answer to your question, “all” would include Mary. The redeemer was put forth by God, a Lamb without blemish(sins) (1 Peter 1:19), that would make Jesus the exception—not Mary.

    “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)

  5. Dear Lena,

    The passage you cite is not convincing because “all” cannot mean absolutely “all” as in every single human being, since Jesus was fully human and did not sin. So, this “all” means “all” in a general or usual sense but not in an absolute sense.

    Since there is no scripture that clearly says Mary sinned I would need some other evidence. Historical writings from faithful loyal Catholic Christians (the only Chrisitan were Catholic for 1500 years) I am afraid that heretical writings would not be convincing.

  6. bfhu,

    Not convincing? You are admitting that God’s Word is simply “not good enough” for you! If God’s Word is “not convincing” enough, then Jesus dying on the cross is not good enough to save, and His death was in vain!

    What does a “savior” do?
    sav·ior
    Variant(s):
    or sav·iour \ˈsāv-yər also -ˌyȯr\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English saveour, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin salvator, from salvare to save
    Date: 14th century
    1: one that saves from danger or destruction
    2: one who brings salvation; specifically capitalized: Jesus

    Mary says “…and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). What would Mary need saving from? What kind of danger was she facing when she was speaking these very words? SIN.

    When I truly learned that Jesus died for me to save me from my sins, I was over-whelmed with so much joy, that I wept. So I know how Mary felt about rejoicing for her savior. The surge of emotions that flow from that truth is indescribable. Do we not all deal with SIN every day, every moment? Are not our souls in danger of eternal death if we do not repent, be baptized and turn from our sinful ways through the grace of our Lord Jesus?

    Mary sinned. We dont know how many sins she had or to what magnitude, but Mary knew that one sin (big or small) was enough to keep her out of the kingdom. And in knowing this, she rejoiced in her savior—the only one who could save her from her sin(s)—Jesus.

    The definition of the word “all” has not changed or else the word “exception” would not exist. It has had the same meaning then as it does now. And since God is Jesus incarnated, then that means the “exception” would be Jesus, since God cannot sin.

    You either accept ALL His Word as truth or none at all. And since you lay claim that this piece of scripture is “not convincing”, then you say that God is not truthful. You seek the teachings of man (historical writings) to support your faith:

    “So for the sake of your tradition (traditions of Catechism) you have made void the word of God.” (Matt 15:6)

    “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men (Catechism).” (Matt 15: 9)

    According to you, God’s Word is heretical. It is that very belief that will lead you to destruction. I will surely pray for you.

    God Bless.

  7. Dear Lena,
    Please see my posts Here Mary was not sinless? ,HERE Immaculate Conception, and HERE All Have Sinned

    NOTHING IN THE CATHOLIC FAITH CONTRADICTS SACRED SCRIPTURE

    BUT

    MANY THINGS IN THE CATHOLIC FAITH CONTRADICT PROTESTANT INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.

    I am not doubting, rejecting, or unconvinced by scripture. I do not accept your interpretations of scripture. There is a difference; since I am sure you do not claim that your interpretation is infallible.

  8. Dear bfhu,

    Mary, like every other Jew of her time, was born under law. In other words, under the old covenant, she had to obey the 10 Commandments and all the ceremonial laws given by God through Moses. For example, we see her observing the pregnancy and childbirth laws here:

    (Luke 2:22-24)
When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

    According to the Law of Moses, a woman who gives birth to a male child will be unclean for seven days. She must then go through a purification period of 33 days. During that time, she cannot touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary. At the end of the 33 days, she must bring the child to the temple to consecrate the child to the Lord, if it is her firstborn (Exodus 13:1,2,12). She must also bring to the priest a lamb for a burnt offering and a dove for a sin offering. The priest will then offer them to the Lord to make atonement for her.

    (Leviticus 12:1-8)
The LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. ” ‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. ” ‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’ ”

    Now, if Mary was always pure and sinless, why did she go through the purification period? Why did she offer a sacrifice for sin to the priest? Why would the priest need to make atonement for her to cleanse her?
     
    RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW

    As we have seen, Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth.
    But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law. In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’s grace.

    (Romans 5:20)
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

    (1 Corinthians 15)
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

    (Galatians 3:24,25)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    (Romans 3:20-24)
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    (1 Timothy 1:15)
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst.

    Again, if Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!

    This, in turn, would mean that she did not need “the righteousness from God, apart from the law” that “comes through faith in Jesus Christ”. In other words, she did not need Jesus to die for her sins because she had none — she was not a sinner!

    JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS GREATER

    (Matthew 11:11)
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Even the most “insignificant” Christian is greater than the most prominent Old Testament prophet! To be made righteous by the blood of Christ, to be born again as a child of God, and to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, is far better than being a mighty Old Testament prophet who is not walking in the New Covenant.

    Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”.

    This would include Mary. Despite giving birth to Jesus, she was not greater than John the Baptist, whose role was to herald the coming of the Messiah (verse 10).

    So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?

    And why should blood-washed Christians, who are greater than John the Baptist (who lived before the cross), honour the lesser Mary the way the Catholics do?

    I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all!

    Jesus’ response when someone called Mary blessed:

    (Luke 11:27,28)
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
    He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

    The woman in the crowd was impressed with Jesus’ teaching, but, she gave the glory to Mary. Jesus’ response did two things. It shifted the focus from one person—Mary—to ANYONE who hears the Word of God and obeys it. This, in turn, puts Mary on equal footing with anyone who hears the Word of God and obeys it.

  9. Please see the post in response HERE

  10. I’m a Protestant. But it seems to me like Catholics don’t believe that Christ took all of our sins upon him when he died for all of our sins. The whole concept of Purgatory confirms that. If there is nothing we can do to get salvation other than believing in Christ and accepting his way into heaven, why do we need to go to this made up place? That the Bible doesn’t talk about. You’d think if there is a 3rd place that is possible to go after you die, then the Bible would talk about it a lot. Like how it talks about Heaven and Hell a lot.

    • Dear Not Jesus,
      Purgatory is a place of complete purification for our souls. The Catholic Church teaches that very few of us die in perfection. In order to come into the presence of God Most Holy we too must be holy as He is holy. Therefore, purification is needed. Christ paid the eternal price for our sins but our suffering, either in this life or the next “fills up what is lacking in Christ.” Pays the temporal consequences of sin. (Jesus paid the Eternal consequences of sin)

      Colossians 1:24
      Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

      For a fuller explanation of Purgatory please click—>Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?

  11. Oh. About Mary though. It says sin is passed down to us through Adam. God made Adam out of nothing basically, so he didn’t have to have sin. But since we were born of Adam, we have his sin. Jesus wasn’t born of a male. Sin is passed down through Adam, which reveals that sin is through the male gene. But Jesus didn’t have an earthly male father. Mary was. Which is why Jesus wasn’t born into sin, and Mary was.

    • How can you think something is right because its older? That’s like saying I still believe in the world being flat. It doesn’t make sense. The bible talks aboht false religions that include: Meaningless repetition of prayer and ritual type things. And also those religions that refrain people from getting married… Hmm… Kinda sounds like Catholisicim.

    • You are correct. Just because something is older does not necessarily make it truer. However, Chrisitianity has been passed down to us through history for over 2000 years. Yes by now all of our beliefs have been written down. Some of these became what we know at the New Testament. But for decades NOTHING was written down. The Faith was passed on by the apostles and those they ordained to teach. Eventually the apostles realized they were getting older and wrote their gospels. St. Paul’s letters were written earlier but none of these writing were known to be infallible scripture until 400 years after the birth of Jesus. There were also other excellent writings and histories that were prominent in the first century that were read and adhered to but were not later canonized.

      Fast forward to 2013. We have over 10,000 Protestant denominations which differ from each other based on different interpretations of the exact same Bible. They all claim to have the leading of the Holy Spirit. They all claim to Know what the Bible says. They all claim to be seeking God. They all claim to love Jesus. They all claim to be seeking the Truth.

      But they cannot all be correct. Besides Protestantism contradicts the desire of Jesus that we all be ONE. With so much confusion a seeker wants to know which Church is teaching the TRUTH? Well, I wanted to know so I thought, “What did the Christians in the first couple of centuries believe?”

      So, I looked into it. If they had had Protestant beliefs, I would stll be a Protestant of whichever sort adhered most closely to the beliefs of the earliest Christians. However, I found they had Catholic beliefs. So despite my fear and repulsion, I looked into what the Catholic Church actually taught and found out that Protestantism had taught me a pack of lies about the Catholic Church. Once I realized that Jesus Himself founded the Catholic Church I had to be Catholic.

    • Dear Not Jesus,
      I have never heard that the sin nature is passed only by the male before. But we believe that God, who can do anything, created Mary at the first instance of her conception free of the fallen sin nature passed on by Adam & Eve. It was by God’s choice to have a pure dwelling for His son. This gave us a new Adam and and new Eve, both sinless throughout their lives in opposition to Adam and Eve, also created without a sin nature, but who sinned.

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