Why Did Mary Offer a Sin Offering?

Q. Mary, like every other Jew of her time, was born under law. In other words, under the old covenant, she had to obey the 10 Commandments and all the ceremonial laws given by God through Moses. For example, we see her observing the pregnancy and childbirth laws here:

(Luke 2:22-24) When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord She must also bring to the priest a lamb for a burnt offering and a dove for a sin offering. The priest will then offer them to the Lord to make atonement for her.

A. The above quotation of Luke is inaccurate Here is what the NIV actually says:

When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord 24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.

Q. Now, if Mary was always pure and sinless, why did she go through the purification period? Why did she offer a sacrifice for sin to the priest? Why would the priest need to make atonement for her to cleanse her?

Leviticus 12:1-8 The LORD said to Moses, ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period… . 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering

A. These are very good and very legitimate questions. Of course, being ceremonially unclean is not equivalent to being sinful. The laws here are going to apply to everyone. They would not have written these laws with one immaculate virgin in mind. But scripture does seem to indicate in Luke, that Mary offered a sin offering.

Good point about Mary’s sin offering. But the Catholic reply would be that she offered the sin offering out of humility and to avoid scandal and to fulfill all righteousness, (Mt. 3) just as her Divine Son was baptized in the Jordan by John. John’s baptism was for repentance and yet we both agree Jesus did not need to be baptized b/c He did not need to repent of any sin. And yet He submitted to baptism. And Mary offered the sin offering according to the Law. Both fulfilled all righteousness in humility.

Q. As we have seen, Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law. In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’s grace.

If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!

A. No, she did not achieve righteousness by the law. She was righteous from her conception by the power of God. And yes, she kept the entire law.

Q. So, Mary did not need “the righteousness from God, apart from the law” that “comes through faith in Jesus Christ”? In other words, she did not need Jesus to die for her sins because she had none — she was not a sinner!

A. She certainly did need Jesus to save her. True, she was not a sinner but she certainly DID have faith in Jesus Christ her Divine Son. She was the first believer. She was saved by Jesus from sin BEFORE she sinned by a unique grace of God Almighty. Surely God could do this if He wanted to do it. Just as Jesus’ death saves all people, even those who lived and died before His incarnation, so His salvation through His death and resurrection was applied to Mary before it actually happened in time.

Q. Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Even the most “insignificant” Christian is greater than the most prominent Old Testament prophet! To be made righteous by the blood of Christ, to be born again as a child of God, and to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, is far better than being a mighty Old Testament prophet who is not walking in the New Covenant.

A. And Our Blessed Mother would most definitely fall into this category. So, she too, as a Christian and in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

Q. Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”.

A. This must be referring to OT people. Because Jesus also was born of woman and yet we both agree He is the greatest of all.

Q. So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?

A. Because she is the mother of Our Lord and unlike Eve, she was perfectly obedient to God.

Q. I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all!

A. Jesus is exalted above all. We worship Him. We honor Mary for who she is we do not worship her.

Q. Jesus’ response when someone called Mary blessed: Luke 11:27,28 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it

The woman in the crowd was impressed with Jesus’ teaching, but, she gave the glory to Mary. Jesus’ response did two things. It shifted the focus from one person—Mary—to ANYONE who hears the Word of God and obeys it. This, in turn, puts Mary on equal footing with anyone who hears the Word of God and obeys it.

A. True. And, of course, Mary also heard the word of God and obeyed it. All who do this are blessed just as Jesus said. This is true. I would submit that Jesus’ response did redirect the woman’s focus from honoring His mother to the necessity that this woman attend to her own salvation. But, it in no way indicates that Mary is thus equal in every way to any Christian who hears and obeys Jesus regardless of the perfection of their obedience. But she would be equal to any Christian who believed and obeyed perfectly.
In closing , I would like to say that you have submitted some very good and thoughtful questions. I have also submitted to you a different way to understand the same scriptures. I hope you can see that it is possible to interpret the same scriptures differently. This is the very reason there are over 40,000 different Protestant denominations.

The basic difference between Protestant interpretation of scripture and Catholic is that for us the Faith existed before the NT scriptures were written down. So the NT is a product of the Catholic Faith and is not contrary to any of our beliefs and doctrines.

For instance, no one in the Catholic Church sat down and read the Angelic salutation in Luke 1–“Hail Full of Grace..” thought it over and said, “I know, this must mean that Mary was sinless, immaculate from the first instance of her conception!”

If the Catholic Church had done that Protestant derision would be deserved. But no, that is not why we cite this verse. The Catholic Church has always believed in the immaculate conception of Mary. This was never seriously questioned until some time after the Protestant Reformation. (Even Luther believed in her immaculate conception.)We cite this verse in response to Protestant demands for scripture. And because we know that Protestants will only consider scripture Catholics give the scriptural evidence we have for our beliefs. Protestants will then often scoff because they think we derived our doctrine and dogma from what seems to them insubstantial scriptural evidence. But as I said above, our doctrines do not come out of scripture in the same way Protestants derive their doctrine. Our doctrine comes directly from the teaching of Jesus to the apostles to us.

On the other hand, Protestants, 1500 years later, read scriptures and then decide what is to be believed based on their own private interpretation.

By the way this is proscribed in

2 Peter 1:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

The reason I am Catholic is that for many scriptures there are more than one way to interpret them. I have decided that the oldest Church, the one that can trace her origin back to the apostles, founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, is the one church most likely to KNOW how the scriptures should be interpreted.

Protestant individuals, 1500 – 2000 years removed from the events in the NT, are pretty much on their own. Their hope is that the Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth but this has not been the case since the differences in Protestant interpretation has spawned thousands of different denominations in direct opposition to Jesus’ desire that we all be ONE.


54 Responses


    I LOVE reading this blog!!!

    God bless you, God bless you!!!
    Cyndi B.

    • The Catholici show the lack of biblical understanding .They do not even understand what grace is .Are how one gain salvation .First John chapter 1 and two need to read . They warp scripture into their own creation ,polluting it .Example She was conceived without sin.

      “…It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin…” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722). The bible never once say mary was Full of Grace .. It says she was a sinner like all of us .She had to make a sacrifice as Jew were to do … The phrase “full of grace” in Greek is “plaras karitos” and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.
      “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:14).
      This is Jesus Not Mary .She was a sinner like all Human kind .Jesus being God in the flesh born not tof the seed of a human but God was sinless . Truth is offensive to the perishing . Jesus replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Jesus was rejecting the idea that Mary was blessed .

      • Dear Dan,

        You are correct about the phrase “full of grace.” In John 1:14 we find the two words pleres (not plaras) charitos. And this does mean “full of grace”. These same two words are used to describe St. Stephen in Acts 6:8.

        When the angel announced that Mary would conceive by the Holy Spirit, he called her kecharitomene rather than by her given name, Mary.
        This word is used nowhere else in the Bible. It literally means “woman who has beed graced.”

        Where in scripture do you find that it says that Mary “was a sinner like all of us”? Are you aware that you may be slandering the mother of our Lord if you cannot prove this?

        You are quite wrong when you say,

        Jesus being God in the flesh born not of the seed of a human..

        This is an ancient heresy. Jesus certainly was born of the seed of a human. Mary’s seed. Mary gave the Son of God human flesh. She, by the power of God, clothed divinity with human flesh. Or if you prefer, God, by Mary’s seed clothed divinity with humanity.

        You are also quite wrong when you say,

        Jesus was rejecting the idea that Mary was blessed .

        So, if you think Jesus rejected the idea that Mary was blessed, then, no doubt you also reject both of these verses of scripture,

        Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women,

        Luke 1:49 For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

        .. thus making void the word of God through your (Protestant) tradition which you hand on
        . Mark 7:13

        • Luke 1:46, 47 And Marcy said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior”. Mary acknowledged her need for a savior, which would not be necessary if she were without sin.

          • Dear Michelle,
            At first you interpretation certainly seems to be the case. And Mary does acknowledge God, as her savior. But, the Catholic Faith, also acknowledges that God is Mary’s savior b/c she did need one. However, God saved Mary from sin before she sinned instead of after she sinned. Just like you can save a person from falling into a trap before they fall into it or you can save them from the trap after they fall into it.

            • Could you please provide Scripture that says that God saved Mary from sin? Thank you.

              • Mary acknowledges that God is her Savior. Luke 1:47

                “My soul magnifies the Lord,
                47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

                • That just reiterates what I had previously said. I’m looking for Scriptural reference that Mary was EVER without sin.

                  • Michelle, you’re kindly invited to see my post for Scriptural reference and the testimony of the Church Fathers.

                    • Thank you for the reply to my question about Mary being without sin. The article you sent had many leaders of the Catholic church stating that she was without sin. This was not even a “thing” until December 8, 1854 when Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary an article of faith. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia states “no direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

                • Reformed Protestants super-impose their novel 16th century sola fide understanding of what it means to need a savior on what Mary is declaring on having God as her savior in her Magnificat. But what she says must be taken in a Jewish sense.

                  What intrigues me is that Luke refers to Isaiah 61:10 in Mary’ Canticle of Praise (1:46-49). Protestant biblical commentators also tell us that. Mary rejoices in God her saviour, not because she is personally a sinner who needs to be saved like everyone else, but because she has been redeemed or restored to God’s grace (anagogically like the Jews who were in exile) in the most perfect way: by being preserved free from contracting the stain of original sin in view of the foreseen merits of Christ, viz., her Immaculate Conception. God is revealing through Luke (sensus plenior) that Mary was liberated from being subjected to the law of sin and slavery of sin. God clothed Mary in “the garments of salvation” and covered her with “the robe of justice” by preserving her free from all stain of sin by His grace. This is evident by the fact that this same verse applies to the just merits of Christ in his sinless humanity and the Paschal mystery. Both the Mother and the Son are revealed to be equally blessed (eulogeo) in this way. And so, neither of them are subject to the law of sin and death because of sin, as is fallen humanity: Jesus by his substantial grace of union with the Father, and his mother Mary by God’s intervening grace (Lk 1:28; Jude 1:24-25). Mary concludes “The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name” (Lk 1:49). This verse echoes Psalm 126, 1-3:

                  When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion,
                  then we thought we were dreaming.
                  Our mouths were filled with laughter;
                  our tongues sang for joy.
                  Then it was said among the nations,
                  “The Lord has done great things for them.”
                  The Lord has done great things for us;
                  Oh, how happy we were.
                  – Psalm 126, 1-3

                  Luke is portraying Mary as the living personification and anti-type of Daughter Zion, whom God has looked with favour on in her lowly estate (Lk 1:48). Mary isn’t acknowledging that she is personally a sinner who needs to be saved (the Protestant presumption) but is praising God for having redeemed her in the most perfect way – liberation from exile and slavery, which is the fallen human condition. Because God has done great things for Mary, all generations shall call her blessed (not a sinner).

                  At that time, I will bring you home,
                  at the time when I will gather you together;
                  yea, I will make you renowned and praised
                  among all the peoples of the earth,
                  when I restore your fortunes
                  before your eyes, says the Lord.
                  – Zephaniah 3, 20

                  I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;
                  therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.
                  – Psalm 45, 17

      • Dan, all you can do is presume Mary was a sinner and object to ancient Catholic teaching. May I ask how you can be absolutely certain that Mary was a sinner other than drawing a faulty generalisation? Surely, you haven’t been graced with the charism of infallibilty. Jesus did not give you the keys of the kingdom, or did he? (Mt 16:18-19).

        With respect to Luke 11:27-28, we read in the Gospel of Luke (11:27-28) that a woman in the crowd which was following Jesus raised her voice and said to him: “Blessed (makaria) is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” This woman obviously thought Mary was blessed for being the mother of a prophet and teacher. She had no idea that Jesus was God incarnate. Because of her ignorance, she failed to see how Mary was truly blessed and the higher expression of her blessedness. Thus, Jesus corrected her in allusion to his mother by saying: “Blessed (makaria) rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” The Greek word for “rather” is menoun (mενοῦν) which means “more” or “further”.

        What our Lord implicitly told the woman, then, was that his mother wasn’t simply blessed for having borne and nursed him, but more so for having borne him because of her faith; she was more blessed for her faith in the word of God than she was for being his biological mother, since he came into the world to redeem it by her obedient act of faith in charity and grace. And for being a woman of faith, Mary was not only the natural mother of Jesus, but more importantly, the spiritual mother of all the living. It was in allusion to Mary’s redefined motherhood that Jesus called her “Woman” from the wood of the Cross, just as Adam had called his wife before they both fell from grace (Gen 3:12-13). If only the woman in the crowd knew what kind of fruit Mary had brought to mankind from her blessed womb, she whom the serpent couldn’t beguile.

        Thus, Jesus must have alluded to the Annunciation when he spoke his words. The woman in the crowd couldn’t have imagined that Mary’s motherhood involved the appearance of an angel and her salutary consent to be the mother of someone greater than a prophet or any rabbi, one who was in fact the Son of God foretold by the prophets and who came into the world to save mankind from sin and death by suffering and dying on the cross. This woman should know that our Lord’s mother was not simply blessed for being the mother of Jesus, but more importantly because she had crushed the head of the serpent with her heel by her obedient act of faith in collaboration with God to undo Eve’s transgression and become her advocate or vindicator. Mary heard the word of God and kept it. That’s not being a sinner. A sinner is someone who rejects the will of God. Blessed was she who believed (Lk 1:45).

        We have in the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible: ‘And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people’ (Acts 6:8). Most Protestant Bibles also have “full of grace” (pleres charitos) except three versions which read “full of faith” (pleres pistin). The King James Bible is included: ‘And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.’ (See Acts 6:5.) It is important for us to note here that most Bible versions, including Catholic Bibles, do have “full of grace”, but not in the sense in which Mary is being described. What Luke means to say is that Stephen was granted the actual graces of faith and fortitude for the performance of his salutary acts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

        Of course, these actual graces do sanctify the person, but are present with the performance of the acts themselves and disappear with the end of the performance. Stephen was abounding in (“full of”/πλήρης) faith and fortitude while he was debating with the religious elders in the synagogue and performing great signs and wonders. If we look at the past tense verb ἐποίει (“was performing”) in Acts, we can place the noun χάριτος (grace) within a restricted time reference. The verb tense is imperfect past progressive, so it indicates that the action – performing great signs and wonders – is completed in the past and left there. Actual grace (faith or fortitude) aids the soul to remain habitually in the state of sanctifying grace, which itself is the quality of the soul sharing in the divine life. Stephen partook of the divine life in his apostolic zeal while evangelising in the Temple.

        Whether Stephen remained faithful and resilient after this event is of no concern. The Evangelist isn’t concerned with the time before and after the event during which time Stephen was filled with a sufficient supply of actual graces that rendered him completely faithful and strong in his present task. But this is not so regarding Mary. Her maternal vocation extended throughout her entire existence from the time she was conceived, since she had been predestined to be the mother of the Lord. Stephen, on the other hand, wasn’t chosen by God to evangelise his entire life. Moreover, the grace that Mary is endowed with relates to the holy state and quality of her soul, not an apostolic action of hers at any present time. The grace that the angel is referring to is the habitual grace of sanctification or justification itself which is distinguished from actual grace, though the latter does effect sanctification.

        In Luke 1:28, at any rate, the original Greek text does not read pleres charitos, but kecharitomene, which is a perfect passive participle and singular female vocative. A participle is a verb that is used to describe a subject. The perfect tense describes an action (God’s bestowal of grace) in the present with a completed result. And since this term is used as a title, the evangelist does not intend to describe Mary’s state within the restricted time frame of the present moment. He presents the angel as saying: “Hail, “completely, perfectly, and permanently endowed with sanctifying or justifying grace.” Someone completely endowed with grace is obviously “full of grace”, albeit the verbal difference. But Mary’s complete and perfect endowment of grace is a completed past action with a lasting effect which identifies her person. Mary embodies in her interior life what it requires to be the mother of God incarnate: completely sinless, the dispensation and efficacy of grace being the antidote to sin.

        When the angel Gabriel addresses Mary with the title Kecharitomene, he is not simply describing her state at a given instance of time in concurrence with any actions of hers, as Stephen is described to be in his state of grace. Nor does the angel mean any of the actual graces such as faith and fortitude, which help to sanctify the soul. The grace the angel has in mind with respect to our Blessed Lady is that of sanctification itself, which justifies her before God, making her most worthy to be the mother of the Son. The Greek singular female vocative can be paraphrased in Latin as “full of grace” (gratia plena), since Mary has been endowed with a fullness of sanctifying grace which renders her completely holy and fit to answer her divine call. Not the slightest taint of sin has ever tarnished her soul.

        The word for grace in Ephesians 2:5 is charis, from which the root verb charitoo in the expression kecharitomene is derived. With respect to Mary, therefore, the grace she is endowed with is indeed the grace of sanctification or justification. God kindly bestowed this grace on our Blessed Lady when He sanctified her soul at the first instant of her conception in view of the foreseen merits of Christ. The perfect stem of the root verb charitoo (ke) indicates that her redemption is not only complete, but permanent, whose effect continues in the present at the time of the Annunciation and extends with her Divine Maternity, which itself is ever-lasting.

  2. Hi, my name is Nathan, God’s grace and peace be with you all.

    Here is a quote from the blog above:
    “The Catholic Church has always believed in the immaculate conception of Mary. This was never seriously questioned until some time after the Protestant Reformation.”

    This is not true, the idea of the “immaculate conception” came about centuries after Jesus when theologians began to wonder, “How was Jesus born without sin?” Some thought that in order for him to be sinless, so would Mary.

    I say this because this idea is a hypothesis unsupported by scripture. Nowhere does the Bible talk about this issue of how Jesus was born without original sin from his mother. It’s interesting that the conclusion reached – that Mary was born without sin – requires a miracle, when Christ’s birth was a miracle in itself!

    There are two problems with that idea. 1) It is unfounded in scripture and 2) it takes away some of the glory of Christ!

    Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” All. Jesus is the exception because in addition to being human he WAS God. If you were to read the Bible without the lens of historical theological thought over two millenia you would not be led to believe in Mary as sinless, in fact, she calls God her savior. You would not be led to believe that you should pray to Mary, and you would not think that she, as the mother of God, could even hear your prayers (only God is omniscient).

    The Bible in revealing God’s character shows throughout the Bible that God alone is God, to him be ALL the glory. To worship God and also worship, adore, or “flirt” with another god is akin (as we see in the book of Hosea) to adultery. God is a jealous God. Jeremiah 7:18 talks about people who did not honor God as God, and, interestingly, had a problem with a female god: “The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.”

    I submit this in love, love for God and for those seeking Him. Please think over these words, and think over the Bible. What is God’s message for you? Repeatedly He calls people to turn to Him, and Him alone. Jesus said, “”Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” (Matt 11:28). Why would you want to go to (or through) anyone else?

    God wants us to come to Him, and He, in His love, provided one way to the Father: Jesus Christ, and to Him be all the glory all the days.

    God bless and may God’s grace be with you,

    • Nathan
      Please read your scripture as Romans 3:23 is only PART of a sentence.

      If you really believe that “ALL” means “ALL” in Romans 3:23, and as scripture shows that Romans 3:23 is only part of the sentence, then you have to believe that ALL are also justified (hence saved) as stated in the rest of the sentence (Romans 3:24). Hence you have to say that you believe in universal salvation??

      How does the sentence continue on from Romans 3:23 in Romans 3:24
      “and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.” (Romans 3:24, 25 ESV)

      If we take scripture as a whole and let scripture interpret scripture, as you say, then if you say that ALL have sinned then ALL are also justified as the word ALL refers to both.
      Converse is also true. If not all are justified, as you say, then not all have sinned.

      So how can you say that ALL means ALL only in the first part of the sentence (Romans 3:23) and not the second (Romans 3:24), which you no doubt do??

      We all have an obligation to study the Scriptures, do we not, so If I may ask, please find others verses written by the same author, to confirm this very odd type of Greek grammatical construct in which a word used in a sentence has different meanings at first part compared to the second part of a sentence, although referring to both grammatically.

      If the author of Romans 3:24 had meant that not all are justified (saved) than I am sure that the Holy Spirit would have inspired him to chose the appropriate Greek word as used in “…..many are called, but few are chosen”.

      Surely such an important concept expressed in the sentence Romans 3:23-24 would not have been left ambiguous by the author to such an extent that you have to split it and have the word “ALL” refer to only the first part.

      Otherwise, you would have to say that the author of Romans 3:23-24 had a very poor understanding of Greek grammatical language construct. This I would find hard to believe. So taking the (reasonable) assumption that Paul is NOT teaching universal salvation in Romans 3:23-24, you would have to say that “all” in Romans 3:23 does NOT mean “all” as you do not believe it so in Romans 3:24

      God Bless
      George from Aust

  3. Thank you for your thoughts Nathan! As I was reading the questions above, I was hoping someone would comment just as you did. Romans 3:23 came to my head as well; “ALL fall short. . . and are justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Showring that only Christ was free of sin, all others fall short.

    When man decides that Mary was sinless as well, not only does it go against the teaching of this verse, it takes away from the fact that ONLY Jesus (being God and Man) was free of sin, and He being the ONLY person would could be a living sacrifice to atone for our sins.

    In 1 Cor 1:13 Paul questions those that follow him over Christ, saying “Is Christ divided, Was Paul crucified for you?” If Paul knew that people were praying to him or Mary in addition to Christ, he would be devestated and rebuke us.

    To God be the glory forever and ever!

    • You base your conclusion on a faulty interpretation of Romans. To see what Paul means, we must refer to what he writes in Chapter 2 with respect to the righteous judgment of God and the Jews and the law. In Chapter 3, therefore, Paul means that Jews and Gentiles alike have sinned without distinction, and by sinning, those who do sin fall short of the glory of God. The apostle isn’t saying that all human beings are sinners without exception. The Greek word for all is pantes (derived from pas) which is to be taken in a collective sense. God shows no partiality between Jew and Gentile, circumcised and uncircumcised. The Jews are mistaken if they think that God won’t judge them for their sins against the moral law because they were favoured to receive the law and follow the ceremonial regulations (Rom 3: 27-31). Faith in Christ amounts to obeying the moral law in spirit and in truth, which was given by God to Moses for all humanity. The law of love and freedom is fulfilled in Christ who showed what it essentially means to follow the spirit of the law. Cherry-picking single verses and removing them from their broader context to accommodate one’s religious persuasion (Calvinist?) is bad hermeneutics.

  4. Where does scripture say that Jesus is the only one who is sinless? If Jesus is an exception to “all” then why not another?

    God created both Adam and Eve without a sin nature so it is not a problem for him to create Mary without a sin nature. She was saved from sin before she sinned.

    You think you are sola scriptura but really you are
    Scripture + Protestant theology

    Catholics are:
    Scripture + Apostolic Teaching.

    I prefer the latter. It goes all the way back to the first century. Protestantism does not.

    • Mary is a blessed woman who does the will of God. She is a good example for us. But greater still is Jesus’ example! Why would we want to turn to any other when He is sufficient for us?

      We humans are prone to making our own idols and gods (whether in form of a person or an object), the Bible is full of examples. This doesn’t exclude anyone, whether you are Catholic or Protestant or whatever domination you call yourself.

      While Catholics have an obvious target (ie Mary, Pope), others should look unto yourselves too! Do you idolize a pastor or another’s teachings?

      We’re all in the same boat. Before we judge another person and become defensive, look unto yourself. Be honest. There’s no use in defending yourself when at the end of the day, Jesus will say to you: “And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

      Lose the defensiveness. Put that mirror in front of you. Judge yourself according to God’s law to what you see and what you do.

      I choose to be called a Christian — Because that is what a person who knows that they are completely filthy inside, knowing they cannot save themselves except through Jesus Christ: God who humbled himself to save me through His death and resurrection.

      Peace unto all of you, I pray for your walk with God. Amen!

  5. Q. Mary is a blessed woman who does the will of God. She is a good example for us. But greater still is Jesus’ example!

    A. Absolutely!

    Q. Why would we want to turn to any other when
    He is sufficient for us?

    A. For Intercessory prayer. Do you ever ask someone else to pray for an intention? A Prayer request?

    • I refer to the comment from bfhu, where these comments were made:

      Q. Why would we want to turn to any other when
      He is sufficient for us?

      A: (bfhu’s answer): For Intercessory prayer. Do you ever ask someone else to pray for an intention? A Prayer request?

      My answer to bfhu: There is a very big difference between what you call Intercessory prayer and praying for one another, please don’t confuse the two.

      The bible very clearly states that Jesus is the only Mediator (Intercessor) between God and man, in the following verse: 1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

      The Bible also very clearly says that we should pray for one another, in the following verse: James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

      As you see, the Bible makes a very clear and definable difference between praying for one another, and Intercessory prayer (Mediating), which is only possible through Jesus.

      Please don’t mistake the two, because they are entirely different. Mary is not a Mediator or an Intercessor, and nowhere in the Bible does it state that she is. Any prayers to her are futile and worthless at best. Pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus, but whatever you do, NEVER pray to Mary.

      She was blessed, yes, but definitely not someone to pray to. Jesus himself put Mary on the same level as any other sinner that ever lived, in need of repentance and Salvation through his sinless Sacrifice.

      • Kerrin,
        Mary joins her prayers to our to our Lord. What I was saying is that asking for her to pray for us is nothing more that asking our friends to pray for us.

        I think you are incorrect about the use of the word intercede and mediate. Let’s take a look at the definitions,


        1.to act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition: to intercede with the governor for a condemned man.
        2.to attempt to reconcile differences between two people or groups; mediate.

        So any human may intercede for another human. But, if we use it for the second definition, only Jesus can intercede to reconcile many with God. But any human can also attempt to reconcile differences between two people.


        1.to settle (disputes, strikes, etc.) as an intermediary between parties; reconcile.
        2.to bring about (an agreement, accord, truce, peace, etc.) as an intermediary between parties by compromise, reconciliation, removal of misunderstanding, etc.
        3.to effect (a result) or convey (a message, gift, etc.) by or as if by an intermediary.

        As we look at the definition of mediate, we see why it was used in I Tim 2:5. It is much more about bringing peace and reconciliation between two parties. It is more like the second definition of intercede. And Jesus is the only one who can bring reconciliation between God and Man in regards to salvation and the forgiveness of sin.

        But any human can mediate in the sense of the third definiton and convey a message to God for another. So, any time I join my prayers to my friends’ prayers I am conveying a message to God on behalf of my friend, even when I pray for their salvation. I am in the middle, mediating between God and my friend. But, NOT, in the sense of the definition one or two. Only Jesus can actually DO that.

        Now, as regards your assertion:

        nowhere in the Bible does it state that she is (an intercessor).

        I must make the point that nowhere in the Bible does it say that all religious truth MUST be found ONLY in the Bible. Sola Scriptura or Scripture Alone, is a tradition of the man Martin Luther.

        Any prayers to her are futile and worthless at best. Pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus, but whatever you do, NEVER pray to Mary.

        Why? Are you saying that we should NEVER ask our friends and family to pray for us? According to your own beliefs, where in Scripture does it say we cannot ask another member of the Body of Christ to pray for us?

        Jesus himself put Mary on the same level as any other sinner that ever lived, in need of repentance and Salvation through his sinless Sacrifice.

        Where is this in Scripture? I can tell you now that you will not find it. Mary was human. Yes. She needed a savior. Yes. But Jesus saved her at her conception and removed the fallen nature from her. Mary, through the grace of God and her cooperation with that Grace, remained sinless throughout her life. Just like Adam and Eve could have done, but did not. Even if you do not believe this you have to admit that God could have done this great grace for Mary.

        • Bfhu,

          With all due respect I think that you are missing my point here.

          I never said you couldn’t ask friends or family to pray for you, in fact I even gave you the Bible verse which says that you should.

          James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

          BUT, the Bible is referring to your living Brethren, your friends. Nowhere does it say that it’s OK to pray to/with those that have already passed, and nowhere in the Bible do Jesus or any of the Apostles make any example of that method of prayer.

          In fact, when Jesus’s own disciples asked him how to pray, this was his answer:

          Matthew 6:9-13
          9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
          Our Father in heaven,
          Hallowed be Your name.
          10 Your kingdom come.
          Your will be done
          On earth as it is in heaven.
          11 Give us this day our daily bread.
          12 And forgive us our debts,
          As we forgive our debtors.
          13 And do not lead us into temptation,
          But deliver us from the evil one.
          For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

          These verses are the model of prayer that all Christians must follow and is rightly called the Lord’s Prayer.

          Bfhu, you also made the point that “nowhere in the Bible does it say that all religious truth MUST be found ONLY in the Bible.

          My answer to that is firstly that I think we can both agree The Bible is the one and only breathed “Word of God”, inspired into writing through his chosen Scribes.

          Scripture makes it VERY clear that the Bible is the ONLY religious truth. Take for example the following verses:

          2 Timothy 3:16-4:5
          All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

          I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

          Matthew 15:8-9: “These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'” ‘

          Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

          Bfhu, you also made the point that Jesus saved Mary at conception and removed the fallen nature from her. But the Bible clearly says the following verse about ALL men:

          Romans 3:23 – for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

          Romans 3:10 – As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one

          So please show me a verse in the Bible where it says Mary was an exception to this rule, and where Jesus removed all sin from her at conception? The Bible clearly says that the only person who was ever sinless was Jesus (God in the flesh).

          The Gospel of Biblical Grace reveals that Salvation is:
          Only through Christ (Acts 4:12)
          A gift of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-9)
          By Faith alone (Ephesians 2: 8-9)
          Attained by Christ (Romans 5:9)
          At the moment a sinner believes the gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14)
          Secured by God (John 10:27-30)
          Sins are expiated by Christ’s blood (Romans 3:25)
          Salvation glorifies God alone (Ephesians 1)
          The work of salvation is finished (John 19:30)

          Catholic teaching opposes the Biblical doctrine that is most essential to the Christian faith, the doctrine of justification by faith alone. The Vatican not only denies this doctrine, but also condemns anyone who believes it.

          The Gospel of Roman Catholicism reveals:

          A religious system of sacraments, indulgences, purgatory, and prayers for the dead:

          Salvation is supposedly:
          Through the Roman Catholic Church
          Merited by doing good works
          By faith PLUS the law, sacraments, and good works
          Attained by man
          A process from Baptism through purgatory
          Never assured in this life
          Sins are expiated by suffering in purgatory
          Mary and all the saints are also glorified
          This work continues with daily sacrifices

          So my question is, why have all these other things been added to the means of Salvation, that clearly are non-biblical?

          Also, please provide “scriptural” evidence supporting any of the following teachings from the Roman Catholic Church:

          1) Indulgence – The means of remission of the temporal punishment of sins. It is supposedly gained through good works and can be applied to the sins of the living and the dead.

          2) Infallible teachings – The Pope and bishops are incapable of error when proclaiming a definitive doctine pertaining to faith and morals.

          3) Mortal sin – A grave sin commited with full knowledge and consent. Those who die in this state descend into hell.

          4) Penance – The sacrament of confessing sins committed after baptism to a “PRIEST” for the forgiveness and reconcilliation to God and the Church.

          5) Rosary – An expression of devotion to Mary, developed in the 11th century by Peter the Hermit, using beads to count 53 repetitious prayers to Mary, six to the Father, and six to the Trinity.

          6) Sacraments – Seven efficacious signs of grace that are supposedly necessary for Salvation, and by which divine life is dispensed.

          7) Venial sin – A sin that merits only temporal punishment and does not deprive the sinner of grace, friendship with God or eternal happiness (with reference to Mortal sin being categorically different to venial sin).

          To finish I would like to add that I am not attacking you personally, this is not my intention. I don’t believe that the Roman Catholic doctrine are deceiving people with malicious intent. They are simply passing on what has been taught to them, believing that it is the truth. Many Catholics have a zeal for God but it is not based on biblical knowledge. Prayer, love, compassion, and understanding are needed along with the power of the Word of God to penetrate their hearts. Patience is needed to untangle Roman Catholics from the dogmatic web in which they are held captive (Colossians 2:8).

          The best way Roman Catholics can prepare for eternity is to obey the first command of the Lord Jesus Christ. He commands everyone to “repent and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15). Repentance is the change of mind that is granted by God that leads to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 2:25). The truth about eternal life is found in the Gospel which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes it (Romans 1:16). To believe the Gospel is to trust Jesus Christ alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-4). This means we must cease from trusting anything that opposes the perfect, finished and all-sufficient work of the Savior. Catholics must forsake their good works, indulgences, sacraments and the sacrifice of the Mass “as a means of salvation”. We can bring nothing to the cross except our sins because the ONLY way God saves sinners is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:8-9).

          • Kerrin,
            Scripture nowhere limits our prayer requests to living-on-Earth brethren. You may assume that from James but it does not command us to only ask those alive on Earth. The Saints of course are alive, in Heaven.

            We pray the Lord’s Prayer a lot. But we do not believe we are bound to conform to its structure in our personal prayer. I never heard this as a Protestant. Not sure what your point was about that.
            We can only pray the Our Father and no other prayers?
            We can only pray using this pattern?
            We can only pray about the issues contained in the Our Father?
            …..Please clarify

            The Catholic Church does not believe in Sola Scriptura. Our beliefs predate the canonization of Scripture and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura invented by Martin Luther. Therefore, unlike Protestants, the teachings of the Catholic Church gave birth to the New Testament. I try to show our beliefs in Scripture when I can but we are not bound by Sola Scriptura. Protestants however have so bound themselves and yet it is not to be found in Scripture. I love the verses you quoted and we reverence the Holy Scriptures and the doctrines therein, but none of the verses you quoted teach Sola Scriptura.

            You said: Scripture makes it VERY clear that the Bible is the ONLY religious truth.

            I think you are reading that into them because of the way you have been taught.

            Mary’s Immaculate conception is a teaching of the apostles. We are under no necessity to show our beliefs in Scripture because the Catholic Church has never said all of our beliefs are in Scripture. That is a Protestant belief. And yet Protestants believe many things not found in scripture either. Chief among them is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Also, that our brothers and sisters in Heaven are not to be asked for prayer.

            I would like to recommend that you read a Catholic book about what we believe b/c you are confusing practices of Catholics with doctrine. Please get a copy of Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating.

          • That was beautifully written, and spot on!

        • Ecclesiastes 9:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
          5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

  6. The days of a woman’s purification happen both after the completion of a pregnancy as well as the end of her period. The Law states that an offering, according to the family’s means, is to be made upon the birth of a son (or daughter) – it’s not a sin offering but an offering after her purification. After a woman’s period (actually, one week after it stops), she goes to the mikvah for ritual purification. Jewish law, no sin involved either way. Also, as for the word “sin,” it doesn’t exist and mean in Hebrew what it’s come to mean in English bibles. It more closely means turning from the path of G-d’s word and instruction to one side or another. Naturally, whatever you call it, turning from our Creator’s Good Instruction is never a good idea.

  7. The purpose of quoting the Lord’s Prayer was to show you how Jesus teaches the correct manner in which to pray. It should be understood as an example, a pattern of how to pray. It gives us the “ingredients” that should go into prayer. Nowhere in his example does Jesus demonstrate a request for the deceased to join him in prayer, and nowhere in the Bible does it say to do this either. It does, however, tell you to pray with your friends and for your friends, but NOT to start the prayer by asking spirits to join in. If Jesus didn’t do it, then neither should we.

    The simple FACT is that any Doctrine which is NOT the Bible is written and formulated by man. And as we both know, man is sinful by nature, imperfect, and totally capable of error (and YES that includes the Pope). So to follow a Doctrine written by man is exposing yourself to the possibility of error, exactly what Satan wants. And EXACTLY what happened to Adam and Eve right at the beginning. By choosing not to take God at his word, and instead believing another, the outcome was catastrophic.

    I personally choose to take God on his word. When he says that the Bible makes a man “complete”, it makes a man “complete”, NO QUESTIONS ASKED! To look elsewhere is indirectly saying to God that his word is not enough, and that you need more. Do you really need more, do you really want to say that to God??!

    Do you want to stand there on Judgement Day and tell God that his teachings weren’t enough for you, so you chose to look for Religious instruction elsewhere and add more…. a LOT more!!? Tell me, how much more complete do you think you can be than complete?? If God intended the Bible to be supplementary only, he wouldn’t have given you “ALL” of what you require in the one book. He would have written more, perhaps another Bible, a “supplementary” Bible, but he DIDN’T. By looking elsewhere you are indirectly calling God a liar, and NOT taking him at his Word.

    I can tell you that there is not a single moment in Biblical history when God wasn’t ABSOLUTELY ENRAGED when man did not take him at his word, or turned to other Doctrine (not God’s) for religious advice. The Bible includes clear and concise instruction on what to do and what not to do. The BIGGEST mistake you will ever make is not taking God on his word.

    Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received THE WORD with all readiness, and SEARCHED THE “SCRIPTURES” DAILY to find out whether these things were so.

    • Kerrin,
      But where does scripture dogmatically command that the Our Father limits the parameters of prayer? This prayers says NOTHING about asking our friends alive-on-Earth to pray for us or for us to pray for people who are alive-on-Earth. So, according to your interpretation this would be outlawed by the way Jesus taught us to pray. Except that you KNOW that James did tell us to pray for one another. I submit to you that the Lord’s Prayer is not as limiting as you want to make it for Catholics but not for Protestants.

      Are you aware that every single book of the Bible is written by sinful men? Men able make mistakes? Men able to be influenced by Satan? So, it is not just the doctrines of the Catholic Church which are written by sinful, fallible men so is the Bible. Could God have enabled these sinful, fallible men to write infallible TRUTH or NOT? If yes, then why could He not also enable sinful, fallible men to teach infallible TRUTH? Yes, ie. the Pope. Without realizing it, you are placing limits on God’s power. Limits that are not found anywhere in scripture.

      Are you aware, when you say:

      I personally choose to take God on his word. When he says that the Bible makes a man “complete”, it makes a man “complete”

      …that St. Paul was not speaking about the Bible as we know it? He was talking about the Old Testament scriptures. Do you then believe that the New Testament is unnecessary? Because complete means complete? Then, do you also believe that the Jews do not need Jesus after all? Because complete means complete?

  8. Referring to your question “where does scripture dogmatically command that the Our Father limits the parameters of prayer?”. Clearly the reason you are protecting this idea so vehemently is because the Catholic Church prays to Saints. I have found on the Catholic website a whole multitude of prayers to different Saints, with every opening prayer starting with “Dearest Saint ……,”

    This type of prayer is very clearly praying to someone else first, and not to the Father directly as Jesus showed us to do in the Lords prayer.

    You say to me that the Lord’s prayer says NOTHING about asking our friends alive-on-Earth to pray for us or for us to pray for people who are alive-on-Earth”, but I beg to differ here. If you read the words clearly, you will see that the Prayer starts with praising God, and then moves on with the words “Give us this day our daily bread”. This is clearly the example that Jesus gives us to pray for our daily needs. Also notice Jesus uses the word “us”, making it very obvious that you are not only asking for yourself, but also for others. Others in need, and NOT those that have already passed. As you would agree, those in the spirit world “do not” have earthly needs that humans do.

    You also ask me where the Bible limits you to only praying with “living Brethren”. I would suggest to your firstly that it’s not always about what Jesus does, but also what he doesn’t do that we should use as our example. NEVER does he or any of his Disciples or Apostles ever pray to anyone other than “directly” to our Holy Father. The people of the Old Testament consistently prayed directly to God as well, and if they prayed to anyone else it consistently caused God’s wrath, and was considered as praying to idols.

    In fact the Bible very clearly says that our prayers will be interceded by the Holy Spirit on our behalves, in the following verse: Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    So my question to you is this: If the Holy Spirit is within every believer, and is doing the work on our behalves, then what would be the point in praying to the deceased to ask them to take over the job of the Holy Spirit? Surely the Holy Spirit would be the best at this role?

    If you are looking for more Scriptural evidence to pray “only” to God, then you could start with the ten commandments themselves:

    The First Commandment: (Exodus 20:3) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Pray to our Heavenly Father, the God of the Bible. Put no one before Him.

    And then Number Two: (Exodus 20:4-5a) “You shall not make unto you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them…”

    So don’t pray to saints; this is unbiblical! Also do not make and pray to little statues (graven images), that is wrong too!

    ALWAYS pray to the Father. The God of the Bible is never too busy to hear you. Throughout Scripture God affirms that He hears prayers made to Him. Never does it say that He has to delegate in receiving some of the prayers, some kind of a busy switchboard or otherwise.
    To repeat this again, it is the Bible that is our guide book, not the traditions of men. Religious traditions can lead us astray.

    Many times Jesus answered the Pharisees with direct Bible quotes, starting with, “For it is written…” or with “Have you not read…?” He quoted the Scriptures with authority, showing that their upheld traditions contracted a clear reading of the Word of God. Side with Jesus and the Bible, not with false religious traditions.

    In reference to your comment about sinners and ordinary men writing the Bible, yes this is true, but they were only acting as Scribes for God. The Bible is God breathed, perfect in every way from beginning to end, which includes both the Old and the New Testament. God himself says this, and he never says that any other book is, or can, be the same.

    The very purpose of Jesus coming to Earth was exactly as the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

    Before ascending to Heaven, Jesus said these final words to his Disciples: Mark 16:15-16: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”

    So what exactly is the Gospel? The word Gospel in Greek is “euaggelizo & euaggelion ” which means to declare, bring forth, preach the good message .

    You are right in saying that they were not using the New Testament, because it clearly hadn’t been written then. But every journey that they took, and every word that God wanted us to know about, was God breathed into his Scribes at a later date, which fully completes what we now know today as “The Holy Bible”.

    The message of the Jesus was very clear. He died for our sins. He was the Lamb of God, the final ultimate sinless sacrifice, doing away with Jewish Law that demands sacrifice of animals for forgiveness of sins, and a multitude of other laws from the Old Testament. Christ became our Great High Priest, and that title belongs to no other man.

    The Disciples and Apostles of Jesus preached “the good news”. Ephesians 2:8-10. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    Matthew 23:8-10
    But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

    To finish, never forget that Jesus IS God. It doesn’t matter that his words hadn’t been penned into the scriptures until a later date. The Bible now tells you exactly what happened, and exactly what is required for Salvation. You don’t need more than God’s word. He doesn’t want you to add, and he doesn’t want you to take away.

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    • Kerrin: The people of the Old Testament … if they prayed to anyone else it consistently caused God’s wrath, and was considered as praying to idols.

      Bread From Heaven: Where is this in Scripture? Where did the Israelites pray to Saints? Or were they actually guilty of idolatry? Big difference.

      Kerrin: So my question to you is this: If the Holy Spirit is within every believer, and is doing the work on our behalves, then what would be the point in praying to the deceased to ask them to take over the job of the Holy Spirit?

      Bread From Heaven: We do not ask the Saints to “take over the job of the Holy Spirit”.

      Kerrin: Surely the Holy Spirit would be the best at this role?

      Bread From Heaven: Of course, however, what then is the need of asking for others to pray for us since “surely the Holy Spirit would be the best at this role?” except that the scripture also tells us “to pray for one another”. Why does God want us to do that if “surely the Holy Spirit would be the best at this role?” But if those words were not in scripture you would also outlaw prayer requests to friends. I contend that the information about the HS intecession is not as constricting as Protestants want to make it.

      Kerrin, if you wish to constrict yourself to only your interpretation of the the Bible and ignore the faith of the first century Christians you are free to do so. I used to think just like you do. But when I found thousands of scriptures contradicting the Once Saved Always Saved dogma I began to realize that Protestant interpretation was not so infallible after all. But could I really trust my interpretation to be infallible? No. When I researched what the Early Church actually believed and taught, I realized it was not primitive Protestantism but it was CATHOLIC! If, when I read the beliefs of the Early Church, they had been Protestant, then I would still be Protestant today. I have chosen to belong to the Church founded by Jesus, and not the church founded by Martin Luther, John Calvin, John McArthur or Chuck Smith.

      But you will not be successful in convincing me or other well informed Catholics of your interpretation of Scripture. You may say, “Well you have your interpretation and I have mine, who is to say which is the true interpretation?” That is a VERY important question. I with my brain do not know? But I have decided to trust the only Church that has existed since the time of Jesus. The only church that could have been founded by Jesus and the Church that taught the same doctrines 2000 years ago that the Catholic Church still teaches.

      Why should I trust a church that is only 500 years old? A church founded by men?

  9. You say that you’ve decided to trust the only Church that has existed since the time of Jesus. The only church that could have been founded by Jesus and the Church that taught the same doctrines 2000 years ago that the Catholic Church still teaches.

    I would suggest to you that this is a very dangerous position to take. Yes, The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to the church founded by Christ, but they by no means teach the same Doctrine today that the original apolistic church taught 2000 years ago. And quite aside from that, they also have quite a Barbaric and damning history that dates back as far as the fourth century, so to align yourself with the Church based solely on their history alone is aligning yourself with some very nasty historical events.

    As mentioned in previous posts, compare if you will the differences to the Roman Catholic Church today, versus the Gospel of Grace that both Jesus and the early apolistic church taught:
    The early apolistic Gospel of Salvation is:

    Only through Christ (Acts 4:12)
    A gift of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-9)
    By Faith alone (Ephesians 2: 8-9)
    Attained by Christ (Romans 5:9)
    At the moment a sinner believes the gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14)
    Secured by God (John 10:27-30)
    Sins are expiated by Christ’s blood (Romans 3:25)
    Salvation glorifies God alone (Ephesians 1)
    The work of salvation is finished (John 19:30)

    Salvation as taught by the RCC:

    Through the Roman Catholic Church
    Merited by doing good works
    By faith PLUS the law, sacraments, and good works
    Attained by man
    A process from Baptism through purgatory
    Never assured in this life
    Sins are expiated by suffering in purgatory
    Mary and all the saints are also glorified
    This work continues with daily sacrifices

    The majority of the RCC traditions have been ADDED over the 2000 years since Christ’s death, in dates ranging from 400AD through to 1600AD.

    A brief history of Catholicism traditions AND when they were first introduced:

    1) Apocrypha – Fifteen writings recorded during the 400 years between the Old and New Testaments. Twelve of them were declared inspired and added to the Catholic Cannon in 1546 AD.

    2) Eucharist – A wafer claimed to contain the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ (added 1374 AD), that is to be worshipped, consumed, and sacrificed (added 1378 AD).

    3) Indulgences – Added to the Catholic faith between 1471 -1479 AD.

    4) Infallible teachings. The pope and bishops are incapable of error when proclaiming a definitive doctrine pertaining to faith. Added in 891 AD.

    5) Mass – The continuation of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary (added 1367 AD), which carries on the work of redemption (added 1405 AD), appeases the wrath of God and atones for the sins of the living and the dead (added 1374 AD and 1414 AD).

    6) Penance – added 1456 AD

    7) Rosary – Developed in the 11th Century AD by Peter the Hermit, using bead to count 53 repetitious prayers to Mary, six to the Father, and six to the Trinity.

    8) Sacraments – Added 1129 AD

    A brief history of the Roman Catholic Church since the early apolistic Church:

    After the death of the apostles the church ignored their warnings that men would rise up from among them and distort the truth to lead them astray. From out of the original apostolic church of sanctified, humble, persecuted believers evolved a worldly institution of awesome wealth, power, and political influence.

    In the fourth century Constantine unified the Roman Empire by merging paganism with Christianity. Declaring himself Vicar of Christ, he elevated “converts” to positions of influence and authority. The professing Christians brought their pagan rites, gods, and goddesses into the church. Votive candles, holy water, vestments, images, relics, medals and purgatory were never part of the apostolic church.

    In the following centuries the church ignored Christ’s rebuke of tradition when He said “For the sake of your tradition you have nullified the word of God” (Mark 7:8,9,13). Church councils began to exalt tradition above Scripture and condemn their opponents. Many devout men were labeled heretics and persecuted for defending scriptural authority. Christianity continued to grow numerically but declined spiritually.

    By the 12th Century the Roman Catholic Church had become the world’s most powerful institution. It used its unlimited religious and political power to set up and depose kings and queens. It taxed people mercilessly and confiscated property to become the richest institution on earth. The pope offered crusading armies riches and eternal bliss to kill Muslims, heretics, and anyone who rejected papal supremacy.

    After the Reformation in the 16th century, the Catholic Church lost its status as the official state church in most parts of the world and could no longer put her opponents to death. The new strategy is to unite all religions of the world through common moral values.

    So are Catholic’s deceived?

    Deception will always be exposed by Truth. Have you ever realized that you could be deceived and not even be aware of it? Those who are deceived will never know it unless they are confronted with the truth. Many go to their grave deceived about the most important issue we all face, and that is, locating the narrow road that leads to eternal life. Who are you trusting to show you the way and the truth to eternal life? What is your source for truth? Is it absolutely trustworthy? Will it protect you from the schemes and lies of the master deceiver?

    The prophet Jeremiah gave us wise counsel for choosing whom we should trust. He said if you trust in man you will be cursed liked a bush in the parched places of the desert. But if you trust in God you will be blessed. You will be like a tree planted by water always bearing fruit, whose leaves are always green. No worries or fears will come upon you in a year of drought or when the heat comes (Jeremiah 17:5-8).

    Who will you trust? Many people disregard Jeremiah’s advice and put their trust in religious leaders. Catholics believe that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church accurately teach what Jesus and His Word reveal. This can be a fatal mistake. Those who disregard the objective truth of the Bible and rely only on the subjective teachings of men leave themselves open to deception. We know God would never deceive anyone because He wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (l Timothy 2:3). He gave us His Word so we could know, understand and believe the truth (John 17:17).

    Would the Pope have a person believe what is not true? Maybe not intentionally, but what if he was deceived by previous popes who were also deceived? How do we know if any of the pope’s teachings or dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church are true? The only way we can be 100% sure is to do as the Bereans did — check everything with the Scriptures (Acts 17:11).

    If the apostle Paul’s teaching had to be verified for its truthfulness, it stands to reason we must use the same standard for any religious leader. Unfortunately the elevation of tradition along with infallible teachings of popes to the same authority as Sacred Scripture has allowed deception to go unabated in the Roman Catholic Church. Popes and their teachings constantly change, whereas Jesus and His Word are constant and never change.

  10. Kerrin, you say these quotes below show the early apostolic Gospel. However, you pick and choose verses that support your Protestant Gospel and ignore those that don’t fit or attempt to explain them away. The Catholic Faith makes sense of all Scripture and is the oldest interpretation.

    Kerrin: Only through Christ (Acts 4:12)

    Bread From Heaven: Of course! Who else could it be through?

    Kerrin: A gift of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Bread From Heaven: Absolutely agree!

    Kerrin:By Faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Bread From Heaven: You have used the same verse. Here it is is let’s see if it says anything about Salvation being from faith ALONE.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    I do not see where it actually says that salvation is by faith ALONE. In fact, the Scripture NEVER says this. The only time in Scripture when the words faith and alone are together in one sentence is when it says “NOT by faith alone

    James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    The Faith Alone doctrine was invented by Martin Luther and became a Tradition of Men for the Protestants. But it is very clearly rejected by Scripture if one reads James 2 <–Click Link to read it.

    Kerrin: Attained by Christ (Romans 5:9)

    Bread From Heaven: Agree!

    Kerrin:At the moment a sinner believes the gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14)

    Bread From Heaven: Let’s take a look at this verse.

    Eph 1:13 So it is with you. When you heard the true teaching—the Good News about your salvation—you believed in Christ. And in Christ, God put his special mark of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit that he had promised.14 That Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive what God promised for his people until God gives full freedom to those who are his—to bring praise to God’s glory.

    I want to address this because this is a very common practice of Protestants. This verse certainly does support the claim that salvation begins the moment we believe. And along with Eph. 2:8-9 it seems to support the Protestant Tradition of Salvation by Faith alone. However, as we saw above James very clearly says that salvation is NOT BY FAITH ALONE. And the reason for this is that:

    James 2:19… even the demons also believe, and shudder.

    So salvation cannot be by belief or faith alone or else the demons would be saved. As James says:

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself…20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless…as a result of the works, faith was perfected;? 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. … 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    Kerrin: Secured by God (John 10:27-30)

    Bread From Heaven: Let’s take a look at this verse.

    John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand

    Is this verse true? Of course. Is Kerrin’s interpretation true? NO. He is ignoring other verses regarding the obtaining of Eternal Life.
    The necessity of Baptism.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    I Peter 3:21 baptism now saves you

    The necessity of the Eucharist.

    John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.

    Kerrin: Sins are expiated by Christ’s blood (Romans 3:25)

    Bread From Heaven: This is true but ignores
    The necessity of confession

    John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    Kerrin:Salvation glorifies God alone (Ephesians 1)

    Bread From Heaven: Agree that the plan of salvation brings glory to God. But, just need to point out that Ephesians does not say anything about glorifying God alone. This is an interpretation; presumably to denounce the honor we give to Mary and the Saints. What Protestants do not recognize is that this honor also glorifies God because Mary and the Saints depended upon God’s grace to enable them to live such holy lives.

    Kerrin: The work of salvation is finished John 19:30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

    Bread From Heaven: Jesus’ work is finished but we too have a part we MUST do. Some of what we must do has been noted in the verses I quoted above. Baptism, Holy Communion, Confession of sin, good works etc.

    I could quote hundreds of verses of warning for us not to fall away and lose our salvation but I have to go to mass in a few minutes, so here are a few verses.

    Matthew 13:20 this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

    Hebrews 3:12
    Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

    2 Peter 3:17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

    Hebrew 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins…36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

    Our salvation is not a done deal at the moment we believe. That is only the beginning. We must endure to the end and “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12

    Protestants also contend that they KNOW they are saved and ask Catholics if they are SURE they will go to Heaven. Presumption is a sin against HOPE. Hope is a virtue and Catholics have a firm HOPE of final salvation. However, we do not trust ourselves knowing that we are capable of “sin unto death”. I John 5:17
    St. Paul had hope. And he was not guilty of the sin of presumption.

    I Corinthians 9:24 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

  11. Kerrin says,Catholic Salvation is:Through the Roman Catholic Church

    Bread From Heaven: Yes, this is very true but only because Jesus founded the Church to bring the Gospel to every Generation until the end of Time. Without Jesus there would be no salvation through the Catholic Church or any other way.

    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Merited by doing good works
    Bread From Heaven:Absolutely WRONG. We cannot in any way merit salvation by our good works. Aside from our works making our faith perfect as James says, our works and sufferings etc are not for the purpose of saving ourselves but to make reparation for the temporal consequences of our sin. To purify our souls from attachment to sin. And what is not completed in this earthly life is completed by the grace of God in Purgatory. So that we may be Holy as He is Holy. (I Peter 1:16)For a full understanding of the Catholic teaching on purification see also my post–>Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?
    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: By faith PLUS the law, sacraments, and good works
    Bread From Heaven: Well this is just what scripture says:

    Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    John 6:54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life (see John 6:26–65)


    John 20:21 …I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [c]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    Good works

    James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.

    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Attained by man

    Bread From Heaven: Absolutely WRONG.

    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is:A process from Baptism through purgatory
    Bread From Heaven: Salvation is through Jesus Christ. But we cannot enter into the Holy Presence of God until we are purified. Baptism is the first purification from all sin, eternal and temporal. Confession is a further absolution of the eternal consequences of sin, the sacraments give grace to strengthen our souls to stay the course and Purgatory finishes the purification of our souls, so that we will be Holy as He is Holy.

    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Never assured in this life
    Bread From Heaven: As long as we live we are able to fall from grace through mortal sin. But we always have hope and if we should fall into mortal sin we can avail ourselves of confession. As long as we are not in mortal sin we are sure of salvation. But Protestants, pretend to assurance of salvation with their once saved always save tradition. However, because all know of Christians who have committed adultery or some other mortal sin, they will say that the truth of the matter is:
    Once saved Always saved IF saved. So they contend that those who fall were never saved in the first place. Therefore, no one really knows that they are saved for sure. They may be pretty sure they may assert that they are sure, but the reality is that until they die they too retain the ability to sin mortally. There are some sects who contend that once saved always saved NO MATTER HOW MUCH ONE SINS OR THE GRAVITY OF SIN.

    These are rejected by the majority of Protestants.

    Kerrin says, Catholic:Sins are expiated by suffering in purgatory
    Bread From Heaven: Not entirely true.As I have said earlier. Jesus paid the full price for the Eternal Consequences of Sin but we must make reparation for the temporal consequences of sin. Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?

    Kerrin says:Mary and all the saints are also glorified

    Bread From Heaven: As heroic examples of Faith for us to follow. They are not glorified in the same sense as Our Lord or worshiped.
    Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: This work continues with daily sacrifices
    Bread From Heaven:This is a misunderstanding of what we celebrate at mass. Do we have daily sacrifices? Yes. Are these daily sacrifices a continuing of the daily sacrifices of the Old Testament priests? NO. We do call the mass a sacrifice but not because it is a NEW sacrifice. Not because it is ANOTHER sacrifice. But, at our mass a great mystery takes place. At every Catholic Mass the curtain of time is pulled back and we enter in to that ONE SACRIFICE that our precious Lord made on the cross 2000 years ago. We re-present the ETERNAL SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ. It happened once in Time but since it is eternal we are able to bring that sacrifice into the present by following the command of God the Son to “Do this in Remembrance of Me.” For more–> Sacrifice of the Mass

    • Bfhu, you are making a big mistake to think that the book of James proves we must do works for our Salvation, and that somehow this contradicts the gospel of Salvation by Grace alone.

      It doesn’t say we must do works FOR our Salvation, it says that our faith is”justified” by our works. We do works because we love him and have faith in him, not because it will buy our Salvation. Works are evidence of a true heart faith in Christ (and not just a head faith). This is why he uses the analogy of the Demons believing and trembling. Belief is not enough!

      The Bible never contradicts itself, and it is very dangerous to hold one book up against another. The book of James does not contradict the book of Ephesians, and if you think that it does, then you need to question your interpretation.

      Once again I quote the following verse:
      For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9).

      So what faith will save you? The faith that Christ died for the forgiveness of our Sins, and that is our ONLY way to Salvation. Paul the Apostle repeatedly says it in his teachings……DON’T ADD, DON’T ADD, DON”T ADD!!!!

      Religion, sacraments, baptisms, rites & ceremonies can never see anyone right with God. Living a good life, no matter how good we think we are, can never buy our way into Heaven. A righteous God will judge us all guilty of our sins. We must come through Christ, and Christ alone, or we can never come at all. God the Father planned it, God the Holy Spirit foretold it, and God the Son fulfilled it. Perfect Redemption for every sinner who believes and has faith in Christ. There is no other way.

      To finish, some words from the mouth of Jesus himself:
      John 14:5-6. Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

      • Instead of assuming all this, try studying the Church Fathers to see what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught from the beginning. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the apostle John. See what he writes about the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, which has its roots in ancient Judaism – not the pagan mystery religions.

        “They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.”
        Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110)

        “For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.”
        Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165)

        “He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200)

        Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons, was a disciple or student of Bishop Polycarp of Smyrnaea in his youth, who in turn was a disciple of the apostle John. You can see what the early Church believed with respect to all Catholic dogmas here: http://www.johnsalza.com/p/scripturefathers.html

        There was no such apostasy in the Catholic Church and a break from original Christianity in the 4th century as Protestants presume by rationalising accurate history away. If what they wish to believe is true, then Jesus must be the biggest historical fool or liar to ever have walked the earth, since he promised to be with and guide his Church (unblemished bride) in all truth unto the consummation of the world (Matt 28:18-20, Jn 16:12-13, etc,).

        “To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant.”
        John Cardinal Henry Newman

  12. Why can’t you simply listen unto the Lord instead of twisting everything He says to fit your belief……………shameful……;-(

    • Actually, Jeff, it’s the so-called Protestant reformers who twisted everything he said and the Catholic Church taught historically for 1500 years.

  13. You have made an assertion with no basis. What have we twisted?

    • I like how you took the verse about “faith alone” and tried to play the literal/semantics card, and say “duhh, it doesn’t say faith alone? ” But then did a 180 over to James, to say NOT by faith alone. And then went over to the nicodemus as well. Do you know what a Mikveh is? It is a ritual cleansing in a body of water for sin. Which could be done in standing water for some sins, but for others a body of water that was in constant contact with a flow from the source. That is why YESHUA is called the LIVING WATER. Because he is the conduit. So when he says water and Spirit, that confirms the whole reason that they were having a SECRET MEETING. Because at that point, alot of Jews still didn’t believe. But this man knew that Yeshua was claiming to be BE that Living water. And that also makes known the fact that G-d once again, was making everything rely on HIM, and not man’s tradition or works. John 7:38 revelations 7:17 And works according to James, areSPIRITUAL. Moshe gives credit where credit is due which is an example of his works THROUGH & BECAUSE OF FAITH. We do works because of FAITH ALONE SO THAT NO MAN SHOULD BOAST. Numbers 16:28 Now the WORD OF G – D offers checks and balances to us. That being said, works are broken down into 3 categories, The works of G-d(‘s hands) The work (manual) of our hands (planting plowing seen as righteous in His eyes). And the evil works of our hands (fashioning IDOLS MURDER ETC.) Deuteronomy 15:10(work of our hands) 1chronicles 16:12 Psalm 33:4(His works) Exodus 23:24 1 Kings 7:14 Job 34:25 Psalm 28:5 Ecclesiasties 1:14 Isaiah 41:29 Ecclesiasties 2:11 Matthew 5:16 this last one is good because it relies on G-d’s definition of GOOD. WHICH ARE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTED AS PHYSICAL LIKE HELPING THE HOMELESS ETC. Because a mirror does not come without a reflection, and no sacraments defined by man can bare His IMAGE, in which we were made. As a true born again, believer we are to bare His reflection, a by-product of faith. It’s automatic. Your church is Not the first church. Jews believed first, they are called MESSIANIC ….followers of the MESSIAH. The churches the apostles wrote to, were MESSIANIC. Hebrews was written to MESSIANICS. They were apostolic. Gentile churches came after. The church of Galatia was a gentile church.

    • We’ve twisted what he wishes to believe.

  14. Mary was not sinless. There was only one that ever was sinless – Jesus. What Biblical Scripture supports your idea that she was sinless?

    • Cannot open this link without setting up an account. The link appears to direct me to another post/commentary by you. Please forgive my being direct, but I do not want your opinion, just simply the Biblical Scripture reference that states Mary was sinless.

      • Dear L.C.

        Sorry about the link.
        There is nothing wrong with being direct. If you were to read the post (It is at the top of the blog just click on the title) you would find Scripture. It is not merely my opinion. There is a very big difference between the way Protestants and Catholics approach Scripture. Even if you reject the Catholic Church I would hope you would want to be fair to her and at least understand what she teaches and why, rather than just play , “Gotcha!”

        There is no verse in scripture that says, “Mary was sinless.” or “Mary was immaculate.” But neither is there a verse in scripture that says Jesus ALONE was sinless or Scripture ALONE is to be believed. Also there is no scripture that says God is Trinity or that God was incarnated, and yet we both believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.

        • I was not playing a “gotcha” game. In an attempt to understand, I was simply asking for Scripture to back up your claim; which you are correct, there is none. However, there is Scripture that says Jesus ALONE was sinless; Scripture that says Scripture is the final authority, Scripture that says God is a Triune God, Scripture that testifies to His Incarnation.

          Jesus ALONE was sinless; Rom3:23, 1Pet2:22, 2Cor5:21, Heb4:15, 1John3:5, Is53:9,1Pet1:18-19, John8:29, 1John1:8, Eccles7:20.

          There is a difference between Solo Scriptura (me alone with my interpretation of the Bible) and Sola Scriptura (God’s Word is the final authority). Here are some Scriptures that show us we are to believe the Bible is the final authority; John14:6, Eph1:13-14, John1:1&14, John8:31-32, Prov30:5&6, 1John5:20, John15:26, 2Tim3:16, Matt4:4,7&10, Matt5:22,28&31, Matt28:18, Matt15:3&6, 1Cor4:6, Deut4:2, Rev22:18&19.

          God is a Triune God; Gen1:26-27, Is48:12-16, Matt18-20, John1:1,2,4&14, 2Cor1:21-22, Eph2:18, John10:30, 1Cor3:16, Rom8:9,10&11, John14:16,18&23.

          Incarnation; John1:1-3,9&14, 1Tim3:16, Is9:6, John14:9, John8:58.

          • The IC is implicitly revealed in the Scriptures, no less than the Holy Trinity is. One has to take the Bible (which proceeds from Tradition) as a whole from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 12, and draw connections between the OT and the NT, to see the fullness of the divine mystery regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary in the history of salvation. Don’t expect to find a single explicit statement in isolation somewhere in the Bible to satisfy your scepticism. Holy Writ isn’t a catechism or an exhaustive volume of defined Church doctrines. It’s basically a compilation of literary works which reflect traditional beliefs of the ancient Jews and Jewish converts to the Christian faith. Protestants fail to see how Mary fits into God’s plan of redemption for one reason because they pay attention almost exclusively to the NT and Paul’s epistles with little regard to the OT. And they ignore the fact that Christianity has its roots in Judaism – not the pagan mystery religions. The final teaching authority is the Church – not the Bible (Matt 16:18-19; 1 Tim 3:15, etc.), though sacred Scripture is the objective norm to go by. Sola-Scripture = 36,000 Protestant denominations with different shades of belief. This religious movement which is in a perpetual state of demolition doesn’t square with Paul’s definition of the visible Church in Ephesians: “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” Anyway, instead of assuming things, try examining what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary and her association with her divine Son in the redemption. I present 25 essays on the Blessed Virgin Mary in Scripture & Tradition on my website. You’re kindly invited to drop in.

  15. Dear L.C.,

    You have done a lot of work to dig in to scripture and give me all of these verses. You are a noble soul. Thank you.

    However, most of the verses prove Jesus was without sin. That is not in dispute. A couple others say in one way or another that everyone sins. But we believe Jesus did not sin so He was an exception to the rule and those verses. Catholics believe Mary was another exception. None of the verses assert that Jesus is the ONLY sinless person. Therefore, Scripture does not prove that Mary must have sinned and the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not contradict Scripture.

    We both believe in the infallibility and sacredness of scripture which your verses certainly assert and support. However, none of them assert explicitly that Scripture in the FINAL/ONLY authority. However, the Catholic Church would never teach anything that contradicted Scripture. But the Chruch does teach many things that contradict Protestant INTERPRETATION of Scripture.

    Regarding the Trinity, we both believe in this doctrine but the verses do not teach it explicitly. The Jews had the OT for centuries. They did not see anything in Genesis for instance that revealed the Trinity. We see the hint now after Jesus taught it to the disciples. The NT verses support the doctrine of the Trinity in a subtle way but not explicitly without the hammering out of the Doctrine of the Trinity at the Nicean Council 300 years after Jesus. The word Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Certain verses like those you have referenced make sense in the light of the Doctrine of the Trinity explained by the Catholic Church. The Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity precisely b/c it is not explicitly contained in Scripture.

    Your verses are good regarding the Incarnation yet it is not spelled out and would not be apparent without coming to them with knowledge that Jesus was God in the flesh. And as with the Trinity, the word Incarnation is not contained in Scripture.

    Let me be clear. The Catholic Church teaches the sacredness of Scripture, infallibility of Scripture, that Jesus was sinless, the Doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation. I raise these points merely to point out that Protestants also have beliefs that are not explicit in Scripture.

  16. The sin offering of a pair of two turtle doves or two young pigeons in this case would be for the unintentional infraction of the ceremonial cleanliness law, viz., giving birth to a child. The sin wasn’t a moral fault, but rather being in the state of ritual uncleanliness. The offering, which was made after one had abstained from entering the temple area because of their impure state, reinstated them into participating in regular temple service. Further, the sin offering wasn’t so much for the person who had become defiled as it was for the sanctuary which would become defiled by the person’s previous condition or state.

  17. There’s only one problem. According to Leviticus Chapter 4, the sin offering was only offered When the one bringing it was made aware that they sinned and the.sin was made known to them. Mary would not have offered a sin offering unless she knew she had sinned. Mary knew she was a sinner!!

  18. Leviticus what? Mary followed the law and did what was expected of her. Jesus also was baptized for repentance by John the Baptist. Did Jesus need to repent?

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