How Do You Know Catholic Doctrines Predated the New Testament?


For the first part of this discussion click HERE : Catholic Doctrine & Scripture

Q. How do you know that doctrines that are particular to Roman Catholicism predated the canonized New Testament?


A. The Writings of the Early Church Fathers & liturgical prayers.

Abortion: What did the doctors of the Church say?

Purgatory: Does the Church believe in Purgatory?

Eucharist: What did first century Christians believe about communion?

Apostolic Tradition: What is Apostolic Tradition?

Apostolic succession:
Where does the Church get Apostolic Succession?

Authority of the Pope: Where did the authority of the Pope come from?

Perpetual Virginity of Mary:
Why does Mary have to be a perpetual virgin?

Sinlessness of Mary/Immaculate Conception of Mary: How Can Mary be Sinless?

Sin of Contraception: Why is contraception a sin?

Homosexuality: What did the early Church teach about homosexuality?

Those are the main ones, but for more click–> Here

Q.How do you know that the apostles passed on the traditions that are particular to Roman Catholicism?

A. If they didn’t then why do you trust the New Testament?
Did the Gates of Hell overcome the Church founded by Jesus Christ? Christianity believed all these doctrines for 1500 years until Martin Luther came along and started the first Protestant Church. The Eastern Churches separated from the Catholic Church around 1000AD but they possess all the same Catholic beliefs, except the primacy of Peter. But the Protestants jettisoned many Catholic Beliefs.

Q. The “Catholic” church (the universally called out ones) predated scripture but the “Roman Catholic” church did not.

A. I am not sure what your distinction is, but it is a historical fact that “Roman” became attached to Catholic sometime after the Protestant revolt as a term of derision. It got started in England in order to oppose that “foreign Roman church” in preference to the English Church begun by Henry VIII. It was first used as a derogatory term, denigrating the “Roman” Pope and proposed to elevate the English Pope, King Henry VIII.

Q. How does “…similar to, but not quite…” affirm Purgatory in the NAB footnotes for 2 Maccabees 12?

A. You said it denied purgatory. It is merely commentary. Commentary is not infallible Catholic doctrine. Remember we did not derive our Doctrine of PURGATORY out of scripture.

Q.You stated that “In the NAB there is no DENIAL that is referring to Purgatory.”
Yet, the NAB footnote to 1st Corinthians 3:15 states,
“although Paul can envision very harsh divine punishment (cf 17), he appears optimistic about the success of divine corrective means both here and elsewhere (cf 5, 5; 11, 32 [discipline]). The text of v 15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.”

A.My NAB had no footnote at all referirng to that verse. I don’t happen to care for the NAB and  footnotes  That commentary  does not negate the use of the passage to indicate Purgatory because it is just opinion. If all that the Catholic Church had ,as a basis for the Doctrine of Purgatory, was scripture alone,  it would be very flimsy indeed.
But there is not only the writing of the ancient Church Fathers but the Jewish faith also belived in a time of purification after death. Where Did the Catholic Church Get the Idea of Purgatory?

Q. Although I imaging that writing “DENIAL” in all caps is supposed to serve as a qualifier that will seek to explain away the Vatican approved footnotes.

A. Sorry to disappoint you but the footnotes are not Vatican approved. The translation is approved.

Q. As for the fact that we both know that the Roman Catholic church is happy to take money ad infinitum for time off of Purgatory. How would you like to do business with someone like that? Would you? With anyone else who operated like that?

A. You completely misunderstand. This is an ad hominem attack without substance. I could just as easily accuse every Protestant church of being happy to take tithes and offerings from the faithful ad infinitum also. All Churches depend upon offerings from the faithful. The customary offering for a mass to be said for a loved one in my parish is $10. So my parish church receives a grand total of $3,650  ($10 X 365 days/yr) doallars year if all masses are requested….or a bit more b/c there is more than one Sunday mass. Only one intention per mass is allowed.

This does not go to Rome. It stays in the parish and goes towards its support. And the $10 is not mandatory if one is too poor. It is not necessary or demanded to be done for our loved ones. We can also pray for them and do other good works and ask Christ to help our loved one in Purgatory.

Q. Well, BFHU I have a product to sell you and you can pay me in monthly installments. Pay me this much per month (our local Archbishop set the price of mass intentions at $10.00 each) and pay me every month (or week).

A. We give the money towards the support of our Church. This is an act of mercy, a little sacrifice we make. We are given the opportunity to ask that any merit go toward the suffering in Purgatory, instead of to ourselves.

Q. You ask “Ok, how will I know when I have paid in full (paid in full as Jesus said that He has already done)?”
I say, “I don’t know, just keep paying.”
You say, “When will I receive the product.”
I say, “I don’t know, just keep paying—it’s a mystery.”

A. You are trying to liken a spiritual good to a product and it doesn’t correspond. The money we give goes to support the Church. The merit of our sacrifices we ask to go to others instead of ourselves. It is a spiritual act of mercy and charity.

Q. Why is it that the church does not know when I can stop paying but it does know that I should pay and that God has a money=time off policy?

A. Because no one in the Church knows the details of anyone’s need for purification of their sins. Only
God KNOWS. The Church lets God be God and decide according to His wisdom and knowledge when a soul has been completely purified. We are content, if our loved one is already in Heaven, for God to apply to another what we asked for our loved one. We aren’t as bossy and demanding as you seem to think we should be.

Q.They “are not demanded by the Church”? Of course not you are free to leave your loved ones suffering in Purgatory for centuries and you do not have to do anything to help.

A. It is not all up to us. The Church is offering prayers all over the world all the time for the poor souls in Purgatory.

Q. Are you really unaware about the guilt trips in this regard? If you were standing next to a camp fire and your friend fell in wouldn’t you reach your hand and help them out or would you just stand there watching them burn? Have you really never heard this taught in the Roman Catholic church? I have various times including by Roman Catholic apologetics and a local Penitente who said that everything that he taught was approved by the Bishop.

A. If people take guilt trips they have been wrongly taught or misunderstand. First of all the time any soul spends in Purgatory is by the wisdom and justice and mercy of Our Lord. We are content to be totally purified. If our brothers and sisters on Earth are able to help lessen the pains of Purgatory by the mercy and application of Christ wonderful! But we do not deserve it, demand it as a right, or expect it. We embrace our suffering in Purgatory as a mercy of our Just God. We rejoice to be in Purgatory b/c we know that Heaven awaits us and not Hell.

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One Response

  1. Not sure I get your point, Justin was quoting the bible,
    English Standard Version (©2001)
    “For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

    Are saying that the bible is advocating to cut of your testicles, ? I don’t think you are saying that since no christian practice that so it can not be biblical?

    My question was (rephrasing ) Did the early church father advocate a discipline that is biblical that Catholics are not practicing, which means that protestant are practicing but Catholics are not.
    I don’t thing cutting off you testicles counts (and I don’t believe Justin was advocating, since he was quoting the bible). and that was not what Jesus meant.

    maybe you can give me a another example.

    thank you for your replies.

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