ADAM: praying to the dead (saint or not) is forbidden in scripture.
BFHU: Where does scripture actually say that “praying to the dead is forbidden“? Asking a dead person for direction is DIVINATION! This is what is condemned in the Deut. 18 passage. Divination is NOT in any way comparable to the request for intercessory prayer for those who are ALIVE in CHRIST.
ADAM: Stop twisting James 5:16 to make your point. That passage based on its context is clearly speaking of praying for each other (we being alive) and not praying to a dead person to pray for something.
BFHU: I have not twisted James 5:16
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
The members of the Body of Christ, whether in Heaven or on Earth do pray for one another. The Saints in Heaven are righteous. So, their prayers are effective and accomplish much. My interpretation is different than yours . That is all. We, unlike Protestants do not view those who have died in the flesh to be dead and gone but Souls ALIVE IN CHRIST.
ADAM: Praying to (not for) someone is worshiping them! Your actions are ascribing power to that person which they do not posses and that only God possesses. The Bible forbids not only prayer for the dead but also to the dead (regardless if they were saints or not)
BFHU: Praying to someone is NOT worshiping them. We DO NOT ascribe personal power to the Saints but it is rather the power of God and the will of God that determines the answer to our request for intercessory prayer. I
t only seems like we are doing this b/c you have only been taught to pray to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, in your mind and in your experience all of your prayer is directed to deity. But we speak to our fellow Christians in Heaven through prayer and we know the difference between asking them for intercessory prayer and worship of deity. It is extremely uncharitable for Protestants to jump to the conclusion that a Catholic praying in front of a picture or statue of Mary is worshiping her. It only appears so to them b/c they have never experienced the difference between prayer and worship. To them it is all one and the same.
Where does the Bible forbid prayers for the dead? In the Greek Old Testament, from which Jesus quoted and the Apostles received from the Jewish people, there is a commendation of prayers for the dead in:
II Maccabees 12: 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
ADAM: Speaking of worshipping Mary, what about worshipping the Pope? How many Catholics worship the pope and he allows it. He’s referred to by many different names: His Holiness, Holy See, Prince Of Peace, etc, and people bow down to him with his
BFHU: We do not worship the pope. We honor him. Bowing down is not exclusively a sign of worship. It can be. But it depends upon what is in the heart. Did President Obama worship the Arab king last month when he bowed to him? Does bowing or kneeling before the Queen of England make all who do the worshipers of the Queen? They even used to address dignitaries as “Your worship” but it was merely a sign of deep respect not actual WORSHIP as in that reserved for GOD.
ADAM: When the pagans tried to worship Paul the Apostle in Acts, he quickly rebuked them and told them that he was a mere man like they were. Yet I don’t see the pope showing any disapproval when they worship him.
Paul was right to forbid them to worship him. But the pope KNOWS we do not worship him but are merely showing deep respect for the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth in time.
Please believe me when I say I am not making any of this up. I used to view the Catholic Church exactly like you do. We and many, many Protestants are taught things about the Catholic Church that are unfounded lies, half-truths, and assumptions based on nothing but opinion. These have been passed down from one generation to the next for 500 years. Some are almost exact quotes of Martin Luther’s caulmny.
I would recommend my post Necromancy and Prayers to the Saints.
Filed under: Prayer to Saints |
Bread From Heaven 
I was thinking of the continual conversation on prayer to Mary and/or Saints and thought of this last Sunday:
“I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.”
That is our Prayer during Mass. It doesn’t get much clearer that we are asking for prayer FROM Mary, angels, saints and our brothers and sisters TO the Lord, our God.
I don’t understand how that is confusing to anyone?!
There is only one we can pray to and he alone can save us from our sins. Mary can not do a thing for us. If she could she would not have let her Son die on that cross. The Bible clearly states In 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and on mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. So why pray to others for what he alone can do. Did the any one else die for you or me on that cross? Please let me know if they did. Jesus is the truth and the light and the only way.
Julieann,
It is a misunderstanding that we “Pray TO Mary”. We do use that terminology b/c she is in Heaven but the truth of the matter is that we are asking her to PRAY FOR US. She does not answer our prayers. God answers our prayers.
Intercessory prayer is believed in by Protestants. So, do you believe that when you ask a friend to pray for you that you are usurping the ONE MEDIATORSHIP of Jesus.
Protestants ask brothers and sisters to pray for them. Catholics ask brothers and sister to pray for them. The difference is that Catholics act upon our belief that all of our brothers and sisters are alive in Heaven and on Earth. Protestants tend to feel a total loss of connection to their Brothers and Sisters in Christ when their bodies die. We keep that connection alive b/c they ARE alive. Catholic theology is full and rich. Protestant theology is narrow and withered by comparison. All that Protestant have they received from the Catholic Church.
I love chocolate and I love my girlfriend and I Love God. Does it differ in any way at all??? Prots need to ask this of this of themselves. is there a difference???
Please explain. I don’t understand what you are saying.
bfhu, Im not arguing, simply asking for clarification. Catholics claim they do not pray “to” Mary but simply ask her to pray for you. How do they respond to the following?
“Beginning with Mans unique cooperation with the working of the Holy- Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God” (Catechism 2675)
“Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father” (Catechism 2679)
(Pope Pius IX in 1854) “Let all the children of the Catholic Church … Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”
Again, I am not arguing, only asking for clarification. I was raised a catholic and was taught many things when I was young in catechism that most catholics now days, like the ones in this blog, say the opposite of. Im not saying anyone is wrong or right but it does bring up questions.
Yes, I ask for prayer to my Brethren, they are alive in the flesh and in Christ. But when someone is already dead in the flesh, the connection between you and the man is not possible. God ALONE can hear ALL PRAYERS AT THE SAME TIME. A man can’t do such thing to hear things simultaneously from any place around the world, it would be possible if Mary or any of the saint had the power of God to be Omnipresent and Omniscience. But this attribute is just for God and no one can attain this even if they were already with God.
Dear Ken,
Of course no one can attain omniscience or omnipresence but God does have the power to allow the Saints to hear us ask for their intercessory prayer. It is only by God’s power.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what WE KNOW, and bear witness to what WE HAVE SEEN; but you do not receive OUR testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” John 3:10-13
You do not believe people go to Heaven after death? I do believe in these Heavenly things, but it sounds like people have had difficulty with them even in the time of Jesus….
Please explain to me your statement that God allows the saints to hear us supported by scripture. First of all anyone who is a believer in Christ is a saint whether living or dead Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Dear Joshton,
I will answer your question after you show me where in Scripture all beliefs must be found in Scripture.
All Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, agree… all Christians are saints.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
So you do not believe in the immortality of the soul?
There is no way out of it catholics… this is vain disputing and hair splitting that will send you to hell; you refuse to obey the LIVING GOD and no one lives through that.
The hebrew word שָׁחָה of the old testament’s 10 cmd is the same word used for bowing, bending oneself forward to honor, or being prostrate in obeisance…there is a whole point you miss here:
GOD IS GOD and there is ONLY 1 and THERE IS NO authority between you an HIM… no priest, no intercessor, no saint, no one … you have been lied to .
GOD is the ROCK of Salvation, you are misled by the LUST of the eyes to believe the precept of men above the WORD of GOD. For this you are damned.
You worship, bow, bend yourselves forward and send prayers into an abyss, vainly arguing that you are NOT disobeying a command that HE set forth throughout HIS Word; you have fallen for the temptation of satan, giving the power and glory due exclusively to GOD unto satan (the RCC and the law of men)
Job 22:2
Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself?
Isaiah 44:9
They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
As the clay quite literally argues with the Potter trusting the very men who deny the breath of your spirit for 30 pieces of silver… this vanity will find you buried in the potter’s field with the rest of the strangers.
Herein a believer sees, the enduring mercy of the Living God… for thus has He foretold of you
Isaiah 29
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
And thus has the Son of God confirmed of you:
Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Proverbs 11:4
Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.
His offer of salvation is set clearly before you but ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
deut5 & exodus 20
shachah: to bow down, prostrate oneself, pay homage
Original Word: שָׁחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shachah
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khaw’)
“Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.”
The Catholic Church is doing exactly what the Jews did.. same false gods too… it’s amazing!!!!!
Jeremiah 2
The priests said not, Where is the Lord? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal [the queen of heaven/false gods/ saints …all the work of the devil], and walked after things that do not profit.
9 Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children’s children will I plead.
10 For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.
11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Its funny that you say there is only ONE mediator between God and men. That mediator is Jesus. Correct? Regarding prayer in communion with the Blessed Mother, are you aware that the Chatechism of the Catholic Chuch paragraph 2674 ALSO states that “Jesus is the only mediator, the way of our prayer?” So, you see… Don’t believe what your “church” TOLD you about Jesus’ ONE true Church. Instead, find out what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches. For every objection to the Catholic Church that you have, there is an answer. There is only ONE truth. Truth is not something you can go “church” shopping for. Please ponder this test: If you can shop around to find a “church” that says what you want it to say, there’s a problem. But, that’s what protestantism is. The “TRUTH” is defined as what the “pastor” decides the “spirit” has revealed to him/her in the Bible (a Catholic Book). But if you don’t like that “TRUTH”, you can go to the “church” on the next corner to find another “pastor”. Can you see the problem here? But, the Catholic Church has been under the same management for 2000 years. Jesus is in charge. This is all said out of love. Please don’t be offended. God bless you.
Read John 14 vs 6. I quote, ‘Jesus said unto him,I am the way, the truth,and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’ By this, it clearly means Jesus is the only intercessor for our prayers.
You think Mary wanted her beloved Son to die on the cross? She was in emotional pain, much heavier and agonizing than we may feel now. Her emotional pain, as predicted by prophet Simeon, will be like a sword that pierces her heart. Btw, Mary understands her Divine Son’s mission on Earth, if he will, she follows.
We do not see Mary as divine, but special and blessed. Like what Protestants always say: ‘God will choose other Virgins if Mary rejects.’ But did she? Like what they said, why in all Virgins among all women did God choose Mary? Because he knew the best he had created. Grace is not something temporary, but permanent.
And we do NOT worship Mary, Angels & Saints. These are lies that lead many Protestants into delusion. Open your eyes and attend one Mass. Catholics ask Mary for intercession before Christ! Like how Mary interceded before Christ during the Wedding at Cana – famous changing of water into wine.
Saints are alive in Christ with us, be they earthly or spiritually because God grants eternal life! Unless you reject that. Every believer makes up the Body of Christ. Book of Revelations tell us that Elders present incense of the prayers of saints before God. Are saints those only on Earth? What about those sinless who are already rejoicing in God? What do you call them, ghosts? Man is of flesh, but they are sinless souls that already rejoicing in the Kingdom of God. Hence, they are also saints (as named in the bible as People of God).
And Protestants always claim that Catholics pray TO Mary because they invoked her name. But they invoked her name to ASK her to PRAY with or for us! It’s like anyone calling your name to ask you to pray for or with them. Why ask others when you can ask Jesus? So it’s not idolatry or worship and its pleasing to God.
Jesus said: “I am the Way, the Truth & the Life: No man comes to the Father but by me”. John 14:6 You can web search it; there is another scripture that says the Jesus is the way to the Father & anyone who comes by any other way is a thief & a robber.
“For there is one God & one mediator between God & men, the man, Jesus Christ .I Tim 2:5 ” I say to you, Whatever you shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it to you. To now you have not asked for anything. Ask & you shall receive,that your joy may be full; for the Father loves you, because you have loved me, & have believed I came from God. John 16:23-27
Hi Joan. Can you please tell me who on here is disagreeing that Jesus is the way the truth and the life? Please simply tell me who,is saying that, and kindly don’t throw hundreds of scripture verses at me, because I don’t believe in “sola scriptura”. Thanks
Jesus is the way the truth and the life and He tells us to rely on scripture as the bedrock of truth. ‘ Man cannot live by bread alone but by EVERY word from the mouth of the God’ – this means the whole bible – the whole counsel of God , as Paul called it.
You can believe all you want but if you dont read the bible , the WORD then you cant really know the Father and the Son (the WORD made flesh).
It is like a man who is going away for a long time and leaves his intimate diaries for his future betrothed to read so that she knows all about him and knows how to love him.
When he comes back and asks his bride if she has read his diaries and she says no – I have being doing sport , TV , A bit of dating , wining and dining – I did not have time – but I did read 5 minutes a week so I am at page 20.
So how would the returning spouse feel.
The SWORD of the spirit is scripture – this is our only defense against the devil’s tricks – even Jesus used scripture only to ward off the devil as the Pope recently said.
Put down your sword and the devil will devour you .
NJTR,
Excellent, focused question. We all believe that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life……Amen
Hi bfhu, I think the question here is the basis of the scriptures, I believe Macabees are not included since its part of Apocrypha, isn’t it? I cannot find Macabees in KJV which I believe most reformists/Protestants and alike are being in used. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
Michael,
Maccabees was a part of the Greek OT known as the Septuagint. Most of Jesus’ quotations of the OT can be discerned to come from the Greek OT rather than the Hebrew OT, which means that Jesus accepted the Greek OT (Septuagint) as authoritative. The Catholic Church simply received this OT and canonized it along with the NT Scriptures. It was originally included in the KJV and later still included but at the back of the Bible.
You might find the following posts of interest.
Did Catholics add books to the Bible?
Who Decided Which Books Should Be in the Bible?
Sola Scriptura
Septuagint
The problem for those who are sola scriptura is that there is nothing in scripture that commands it. (sola scriptura is a tradition of men)
BFHU: The following articles explain in detail why the Apocrypha isn’t classed as Holy inspired and therefore not considered authoritative for Christian doctrine. I hope they help you.
The Apocrypha: is it scripture?
The Concept and Importance of Canonicity – by Greg Behnsen
The Canon of Scripture – F.F. Bruce
Roman Catholic and Orthodox Faith Examined and The Apocrypha
Apocrypha and related topics; Listed at: gotquestions.org
Wow Angela, I am sure yours and other protestants interpretations are correct since they have been arround for the last 400 or so years. Oh, wait a minute that isn’t a good argument since the Catholic church has been around for 2000 years. Maybe a better argument would be that the Catholic church just copied the Old Testament. This one would be better if it wasn’t for all of the scriptures that were not included when the Church did canonize the scripture. Consider this everyone, do you go to your church because it’s right for you? Or do you go because that is exactly where God wants you to be?
Wow!
You guys should come to my Anti-Catholic Form!
It’s called “Defender of The Faith”.
http://www.FideiDefensor.ProBoards.com
There’s plenty there for you guys to address!
I challenge the Catholics here to go there if you can defend your faith!
Everybody else is welcomed too!
Come get the annointed word there!
Dear lutherWasRight,
Please read the histroy of luther. He confessed that he regretted leaving the church.
The very founder of the “Reformation”, Martin Luther, was the “regrettable” one, as he surveyed the damage that his rebellion against authority had caused. His writings show that he lamented his deed when he penned the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.”
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.”
Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.
“We concede — as we must — that so much of what they (the Catholic Church) say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?”
Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 – 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS,
St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.
All of this and much more was written by the founder of the Reformation, just a short time after, when he noted the chaos he had created. By this time, Munzer had run in this direction (in 1521, the same year that Luther broke away), Zwingli, had run in that direction, Calvin in yet another direction, all of them scattering the sheep and taking their flocks with them. Luther had let the cat out of the bag and he was helpless to put it back in. He had started something that he was powerless to stop.
Regretful, he certainly was as:
“Once you open the door to error, you cannot close it.”
Luther had become the victim by not heeding the consequences of this simple proverb.
“Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it.”
Psalms 127:1
And I could’nt agree more with poor old Martin luther on his above statements, that he made a “hellish Mess” of things.
God bless you all and I’ll say an extra prayer for all you Prots that you all come home.
Technically, it’s Pope Leo X use of a Papal Bull to overthrow the Sacrosanta, Haec Sancta, and Conciliar authority of the Catholic Church in the year 1517 that spearheaded the massive schism from Catholicism by prominent Catholic priest throughout Western Europe.
Andreas Rudolph Bodenstein von Karlstadt held three doctorate degrees within the Catholic Church and was appointed headmaster over Wittenberg Seminary. Martin Luther was taught and instructed by Karlstadt. Karlstadt held a Doctor of Biblica, Doctor of Hebrew, and Doctor of Canon Law. The whole of Catholic priesthood in Western Europe were profoundly shaken by Pope Leo X’s power grab, which drastically shifted centralized authority of Catholic doctrine from the Conciliar, now over to the Papacy.
The Papacy excommunicated Andreas Rudolph Bodenstein von Karlstadt in 1521, alongside his pupil Doctor Martin Luther, neither of them left Catholicism of their own authority.
Andreas Rudolph Bodenstein von Karlstadt was exiled from Saxony and ventured Westward to become the founding father of the Congregationalist Church, which was very popular until the American Revolution. Today, most of his adherents predominantly refer to themselves as Presbyterians. John Calvin is believed to have studied under Karlstadt periodically. Karlstadt is generally considered the founder of the Reformed Tradition or Reformed Church.
Doctor Martin Luther did refuse to form his own congregation, so the Holy Roman Empire’s Electors of Saxony took it upon themselves to charter their own congregation. Philipp Melanchthon answered the Roman Electors’ call to draft a theological constitution, which resulted in the Augsburg Confession of 1530. They chose Philipp Melanchthon, because he was a well known professor of Koine at Wittenberg Seminary. The Papacy appointed Charles V, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, bringing with him Johann Eck to review this constitution. Johann Eck said he couldn’t refute the stated doctrine on the basis of Scripture; so Emperor Charles V reluctantly approved the document. The Augsburg Confession of 1530 essentially chartered the Evangelical Church of Germany (EKD) and was signed into law by the appointed Electors of Saxony by the Holy Roman Empire. Philipp Melanchthon essentially ran this new congregation on behalf of the Electors of Saxony. Doctor Martin Luther provided them with the Small & Large Catechisms and Bible commentaries.
Philipp Melanchthon created an Altered Augsburg Confession of 1540, which John Calvin signed, merging the two congregations into union between the Reformed-Calvinist and Evangelical-Philippist, later known as Crypto-Calvinist. Philipp Melanchthon again created an Altered Augsburg Confession of 1542 with the initial Council of Trent, just convening, which would adjourn near 1563. Philipp Melanchthon was attempting to bring the Crypto-Calvinist congregations into union with the Catholic Church.
Doctor Martin Luther died in 1546 and those loyal to Karlstadt vs. Luther vs. Melanchthon vs. Calvin fractured apart.
Theologians convened at Concord, Saxony in 1577 to create the Formula of Concord and adjourned in 1580 with the Triglot Concordia as an official confession of faith and doctrine. With the original Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530 as it’s base, these new confessions begin to emerge as congregations independent of either Melanchthon or Calvin, to eventually take on the name Lutherans by 1584. Doctor Martin Chemnitz is generally considered the founder of Lutheranism, since Luther died nearly 40-years before any Lutheran congregations came into existence. Polykarp von Leyser I, would succeed Doctor Martin Chemnitz.
Click to access TrigBOC.pdf
No matter how much info Catholic will get, he might not be able “see” truth… I was there before, I know how it was for me. You have to be born in Christ before your eyes will be able to see the Truth of Scriptures, or else its just wasting the time and energy. Knowledge and understanding will come based on scriptures alone, leaving tradition behind. Catholics are tradition based, barely scriptural. Honestly, being Catholic it’s all about “mystery” and “unknowing less”, ask any Catholic, he will never be able to tell for sure if he is the son of God? He will hang in the “air” till the death will come.. and hoping for purgatory as the “middle” option, for he does not believe in Christ’s Blood power, which washes ALL sin away..
I have never heard any Catholic talk like that. I don’t know who you have been talking to but it seems you were way off.
Sounds like the version of Catholicism taught to me by the Protestant Churches I grew up in.
Not the TRUTH I know now.
See the truth? I’ve seen the truth, heard the truth, ate and drank the truth, have you? Inspired scripture was already debated years ago, well before Martin Luther came along. Next item, barely scriptural? Have you even been to a Mass? Everything in it is based on sripture and the tradition of the Apostles! If they had it wrong or were even going to be wrong in the future, why on earth would God breathe the Holy Spirit upon them? We eat at Mass just like the Apostles did, this is the center point of Catholic faith. Have you knealt before the Lord? I get to at least every week! The ‘tradition of man’ argument is so weak because the men that first carried out these traditions were the Apostles themselves. I’m sorry, but if I am going to pick a side to be on, I’m gonna go with the Church that the Apostles founded, the Church that the Fathers (those who canonized our bible and determined what was sacred scripture) went to. Maybe I’m just a traditional sort of guy, but I don’t see the point of being “untraditionally reformed” when it comes to how God wants me to worship Him.
The church based on Peter, your 1st pope? …and when Jesus came to Peter’s home, he saw his (Peter’s wife’s mother laid, & sick with a fever; and He touched her hand and the fever left & she arose & ministered to them.” Matt 8:14, 15 If your church is founded on Peter, who had a wife & her mother lived with them, why do the popes & priests not marry?
For very Scriptural reasons: Because Jesus did not marry – St. Paul explained why that was best and said that all should do it who were called & so remained unmarried himself.
Even if St. Peter’s wife were still alive by the time he met Jesus, rather than dead as some traditions held, from the first days of the Church, those who were called to the priesthood were not to marry (or re-marry if already married & one’s spouse died) once they had discerned the call. This discipline is still kept as such in the Eastern rite branches of the Church.
The Latin branch, recognizing the tremendous difficulties created by married priests both on the families and the congregations involved as well as on the priest himself, elected to conform the discipline more perfectly to the example of Christ — Whom the priest is directly called by Him to emulate.
Um excuse me but what you are saying about Catholics, you are saying about Jesus and the apostles. First this is how the free online dictionary defines tradition: tra·di·tion (tr-dshn)
n.
1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
2.
a. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
b. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.
3. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
4. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
5. Law Transfer of property to another.
——————————————————————————–
Now lets look at the Mishnah. What is the Mishnah? Well it’s not Catholic:
The Mishnah or Mishna (Hebrew: משנה, “repetition”, from the verb shanah שנה, or “to study and review”, also “secondary”[1] (derived from the adj. שני)) is the first major written redaction of the Jewish oral traditions called the “Oral Torah”. It is also the first major work of Rabbinic Judaism.[2]
It was redacted 220 C.E by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi when, according to the Talmud, the persecution of the Jews and the passage of time raised the possibility that the details of the oral traditions dating from Pharisaic times (536 B.C.E – 70 C.E) would be forgotten. It is thus named for being both the one written authority (codex) secondary (only) to the Tanakh as a basis for the passing of judgment, a source and a tool for creating laws, and the first of many books to complement the Bible in a certain aspect. The Mishnah is also called Shas (an acronym for Shisha Sedarim – the “six orders”), in reference to its six main divisions.[3]
Also: The 613 Commandments – Mitzvahs & Traditions (Jewish Traditions) and since Jesus and his followers were devout Jews, He and the apostles took part in these tradtions
And these: Matthew 5:17-48 (New International Version) where Jesus says “you have heard it said” up to 6 times. These are ORAL traditions spoken by Our Lord.
What about this from a protestant Bible:King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
. So what are you trying to say about tradtions? here’s a couple of tradtions that Jesus commands us to follow:
New American Standard Bible (©1995):
A) 1 Corinthians 11:24
And when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.” Do you do this when go to your evangelical community and remember Jesus?
B) International Standard Version (©2008)
Matthew 6:9
“Therefore, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy…. Do you do this when you pray?
But here’s something from scripture I’d like to offer you mate:
New Living Translation (©2007)
Jeremiah 5:21
Listen, you foolish and senseless people, with eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear.
So this is all scriptural. Do you do any of this or do ya dance to a warm, fuzzy fellowship that’s pastor/Powerpoint centered and shake and flopp around on the floor and say shama lama lama in what you call “tounges”? when Jesus said “Rise, You are healed”
I ask you to point out to all of us where your Bible says scripture alone (sola scriptura), not (sufficient) but (Alone).
Brothers and Sisters, ain’t It fuuny how these ex-Catholics say they were never fed in the Holy Catholic Church and when they leave it, they all of a sudden know everything about the Catholic Church.
MAKE SENCE OF THAT!
God Love you all.
Too right mate, these guys pick on us Catholics because they are cowards and the church is an “easy target”. Look at the battle of La Panto. The Catholic church had to assemble a navy to fight off the muslim armada that was going to invade Europe. When this was taking place, the protestants did’nt lift a finger to help. If we did’nt fight them alone, then Europe would have all been muslim by now. There is only One Church, The Catholic Church. Ephesians 5:25-27 Christ loves his church like a bride: Jesus is not a polygamist therefore there is only one Church, The Catholic Church.
God Love you all.
They pick on Jesus’ Church because, it is their sinful human nature to do so. It is human nature to hate the Catholic Church, Just as Christ was hated, so to is His Church. The devil hates the Catholic Church too. he relentlessly attacks her from the outside and from within. Its much easier to be protestant (pretend “church”), than Catholic (Jesus’ Church), because protestants get to make it up as they go along (sola scriptura etc). If anyone on here converts to Jesus’ (Catholic) Church, get ready to be mocked and ridiculed, just as Christ was. Despite all this, we know that, in the end, Jesus’ Church will prevail. Jesus’ Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself in 33AD, and not some prot who, one day, decided that he’s inspired, and knows it all. Also, since Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) is the head of the Catholic Church I think that’s the Church I’ll stick with. I’m just a poor sinner. I need Jesus’ Church to guide me. I would NEVER be so bold and arrogant as to go at it alone. I simply do not have the discipline, the strength, nor the intelligence to do so. Jesus left us His Church for a reason. I trust Jesus’ judgement. I suggest that you all do the same, and convert to Catholicism, the ULTIMATE fullness of Christianity. Let go of your pride, and look into it. But above all, PRAY on it. The door is always open. Jesus is calling all of you home, to His Church on Earth. God Bless you 🙂
I was raised Catholic, but no longer consider myself to be catholic. I think the catholic church is an oustanding Christian church. However after reading the Bible many times through I just differ with some of the theology. The people are the church and the church body. As far as some of these arguements, dont be so foolish to believe that because its the catholic church it is always right. The catholic church is made up of people and people can make mistakes and distort things overtime. God through Moses appointed priests, how on target were they when Jesus came? Now, to those who oppose the catholic church, Id say its ok to discuss differences in beliefs, but not to condemn. Christ should unite christians, not divide us. If you are speaking to catholics without love, you are not speaking for Christ. The same is true for catholics speaking to other christians of different denominations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and should act that way.
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 12:51-53
Hey Hey! ILoveJesus, welcome back MATE!
Looks like you’ve been bated (LOL)back to the site or is it just that your no is just not a NO!!! Well, in your infitite protestant visdom please explain to us if this is contradicts the verse you posted:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. And since your back to flog THE Church maybe you’ve grown the courage to answer my question from earlier (see this persons post on adding to the word of God). Is the Hail Mary the words of God or that of the Angel and Elizabeth? Oh and about the Pope saying what he said? Popes make mistakes just like you and your pastor of your Christian community, I call it a “community” because it’s not a church as Christ was not poligamist, He does not believe in divorce and he would never abandon what He started. I known, I know, you’re gonna wiggle outta this again but it would really nice if you could simply answer the question. No it’s not an attack, no it’s not an attempt to bait, just would like to see your protestant response to your protestant accusation. And since your so sola scriptura then show us where the word Trinity is in the Bible, or Christmas or Easter for that matter. BUY NOW 😉
Sorry about that. That was my house mate Anno Domine.I was showing them the post by ILoveJesus on my laptop and they asked if they could jump on and reply but accidently sent their post from my user name. Thier post does not reflect my points of view.
TALKING TO THE DEAD (SAINTS OR NOT ) IS AGAINST GOD
Leviticus 19:31 (KJV)
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
The Mary mother of god nonsense is a tradition of man from the 500AD. The Council of Ephesus decreed in 431 that Mary is Theotokos. Theotókos is the Greek title of Mary, the mother of Jesus used especially in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches. Roman Catholics and Anglicans use the title Mother of God. Through the years Mary’s position has been elevated more and more to become even mediator.
What Jesus said about tradition of man:
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do
Galatians 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
The position of Mary is quite clear in Scripture. Like everyone else, she was a sinner and needed Jesus our saviour and mediator.
Matthew 12: 46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not
Isaiah 59:14-16 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there WAS NO MAN, and wondered that there was no INTERCESSOR: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
God has no mother. Mary was the mother of the humanity Jesus. The RCC is leading the sheep astray (Isa 28 applies to RCC too). The rock that Peter built is not the Vatican. The true remnant God kept is the APOSTOLIC Ancient Assyrian church of the East that still keeps the liturgy in Aramaic and their liturgy is also closest to the Jewish form of prayer. The Nestorian branch was rejected by the RCC because of many disagreements back in 500AD. When you research into the history, like I have done, then you’ll realise that their church is the true rock that stemmed from Peter who was bishop of Antioch before he even went to Rome. The Ancient Assyrian church of the East can trace their APOSTOLIC succession back to Mary’s relatives and to this day they still use the religious calendar from the time of Jesus, not the Roman version. Their church members had suffered many persecutions throughout the centuries as prophesised in bible. Of the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation, not one being the Vatican.
f.lee
Sorry to disagree with you, especially about Mary. You have fallen into the same trap as the gnostics and the folk a few hundred centuries or more, who say that Jesus was only divine and not human. You cannot change the nature of Jesus. He was equally human and equally divine. He didn’t walk around half anything. So if He is one person human and divine and you cannot seperate Him, then Mary had to have been the Mother of God. As to the Apostolic Nestorian branch and the Ancient Assyrian church, some part of it are part of the Roman Church. Ever heard of the Chaldens? While you are at it look up the founder of the Nestorian branch, Nestorius, who said that Jesus was probably not the divine Son of God (through his rejection of the term Mother of God.) He was condemned not only by the Western Church but Church leaders. While we are at it, the power of the pope comes from being the Bishop of Rome, Peter’s see when he died. The Vatican is a place, it was named as Vaticanum (Vatican Hill). It was a hill across the Tiber from the famous 7 hill that made Rome. We never had a “Church” called the Vatican. The Church in the country of Vatican City is St. Peter’s. So of course is it not mentioned in Revelations. Apostolic Succession is also found in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Orthodox. That is never disputed. So what if they can trace their roots to Mary’s relatives and use the old calendar? Did they ordain their men in proper form as the other Catholic Churches did? Did they lay hands of them uninterrupted? Please, if you are going to study history, study it and not make it up for your benefit.
Mary was also the mother of at least 7 children.But she remained a virgin until her Son was born; & Joseph named Him Jesus. Matt 1:25 KJ
But she remained a virgin until her son was born; & Joseph named Him Jesus Matt 1:25 paraphrased edition
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, & His brother James, Joseph, Simon & Judas? & His sisters are they not all with us? Matt 13:55,56
I have learned that Catholics are trying to say that these were children of Joseph from a previous marriage, or they’ll even settle for them to be cousins. But the Bible doesn’t even hint to such a thing. the above scripture is repeated in other verses & by different witnesses. It looks strange to me that not one hint was given anywhere that these were anything but brothers & sisters of Jesus. It would appear that at least some of them would go with them to pay the taxes, or be mentioned as staying behind. Also, if being a Holy immaculate virgin all her life was so important; why would she not have been given a Holy immaculate virgin husband? Surely she deserved as much as she gave!
Let me give you a hint:
But she remained a virgin until her son was born; & Joseph named Him Jesus Matt 1:25 paraphrased edition
And he knew her not until she had brought forth her 1st born son & he (Joseph) named him Jesus
I believe that it is Rev 17 that describes the Catholic Church perfectly.
It tells about this woman and names the colors of clothing, the pearls & gold & precious stones & more that describes the church perfectly.
The Catholic Church has 1,000s of chalices in churches all over the world. they have to be made of gold, or if of silver they have to be lined with gold. check that one out.
why always this “God love you” and such at the end of a truly arrogant and hateful tongue lashing? You’re all so caught up in being right that it’s sickening. Do some more soul searching and scripture searching and remember where ever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, there He is also. Satan is having a field day with all this. Smarten up.
AMEN!!!!
I am a born again Catholic Christian
AMEN!!! 🙂
Were you water baptized? Every Baptism in the Bible was in water & with the request of the one baptized. It symbolizes us & our sins being buried with Jesus & up out of the water symbolizes being resurrected (born again) into a new life. We are then given at least one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Dear Born Again,
We are born again in baptism. We receive the graces needed to follow the Truth.
Where in scripture does it say that “Knowledge and understanding will come based on scriptures alone, leaving tradition behind”????
Especially since St. Paul exhorts his readers to cling to the traditions he taught them.
All that you have said about Catholics and our beliefs is untrue and based on lies, twisted truth, half truth, and/or traditional Protestant teaching about the Catholic Church that has been around since Luther and Calvin first spewed them forth.
WOW: I am a CHRISTIAN.
BFHU: Me too. We, Catholics, too.
WOW: That’s what they were first called in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and that is what Peter said he was proud to be called (1 Pe 4:16). I’m not sure why everyone insists on calling themselves by any other title, other than referring to the only name given under heaven that can save you (Act 4:12).
BFHU: “Catholic” comes from the Greek word kataholos meaning universal. The Christian Church has been called “The Catholic Church” at least since 110 AD. We know this from a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch:
There is nothing is this quote that indicates St. Ignatius is coining a new phrase but just the contrary, he is clarifying where one can reliably find Jesus Christ, valid Eucharist, and the authentic CATHOLIC CHURCH.
WOW: I have one question for everybody: At what point did Jesus Christ stop being the way, truth, life, and the one to whom we look for guidance?
BFHU:….UHMMMM….BEATS ME…..We beleive Christ is all of the above.
WOW:At what point did His life stop being the model for us?
BFHU:Who are you referring to? He is our model.
WOW:Read the gospels and Acts, the story of the first church, Please!!!
BFHU:We in the Catholic Church have been reading and hearing the Gospels the rest of the Bible, every Sunday for 2000 years. Who exactly is it that you are so sure have never read them?
WOW:Did Christ or the Apostles:
– Teach us to talk to Mary or to other people to pray for us after there bodies had experienced the first death?
BFHU:Where did He say it is forbidden?
WOW:Didn’t Christ teach us to pray saying “Our Father…” (Matt 6:9)? (Yes, the Bible teaches about 2 deaths, the first one of the body, the Sheol of the Old Testament, the second of the eternal soul, being cast into the lake of fire at the judgment, your body is going to die unless you remain until His coming) Read 1 Thess, 1 Cor 15, Rev 20
-Also please don’t pray to angels, they are servants of God, messengers, they are not your mediator to God, and neither are people.
BFHU:We don’t pray TO Angels. We pray for their intercessory prayer. Ditto for the Saints in Heaven.
WOW: Christ is!! only Christ!!!
BFHU:Christ is….what…exactly….?
WOW: Read Hebrews
– Teach us about a place (purgatory) where we go when we die that we can be liberated from if we died in unbelief or deserving condemnation?
BFHU:We don’t believe that Purgatory is for unbelievers or those who are condemned. We do believe that unbelievers who, through no fault of their own were not Christian, can be saved through God’s mercy. We are judged based on what we knew and how we responded to that knowledge. No one will go to Hell because they were ignorant of Christ. ie. babies who die at birth, or through abortion, the Indians on the North American Continent before the advent of Christianity, or those before the death of Jesus. All of these will be judged by God based on what we knew and how we responded to God.
WOW: There are 2 types of people who die. Saved in Christ, dead apart from Christ. The saved will rise at His coming to life, the dead will rise to be judged after the 1000 year reign, their works will not save them and they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read the entire New Testament
BFHU:There are two types of people….but NOT as defined above. Those who go to Purgatory will have been judged to be worthy of Heaven once they are purified in Purgatory.
WOW:– Did Jesus Teach us to set up a system of priests to which we must confess to for forgiveness of sin? Ok, so yes it’s Ok to share sin with our brother, it’s good to open ourselves up like that, but a lot of people think that you have to tell the priest or it doesn’t count. Christ is our High Priest. Read Hebrews.
BFHU:Where is Scripture does it say what you assert? In the OT there were ministerial priests and the priesthood of all the believers. So also in the Church. Jesus certainly did set up confession in
Here we see Jesus annointed ONLY the disciples, the first priests and bishops of the Christian Church, with a special dispensation of the Holy Spirit. He gave them authority to forgive or not sin. The only way to do this would be if they heard confession audibly. And we know historically that this was done since the earliest era of the Church.
WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us that the communion supper should be imagined as real human flesh and blood?
WOW:Remember Christ said His words are spirit (i.e. spiritually symbolic and important), the spirit gives life Jn 6:63.
BFHU Exactly, but the Spirit is in NO WAY just a symbol. That which is spiritual is an unseen reality. It is in NO WAY equivalent to a symbol.
WOW:We eat Christ spiritually, not physically like cannibals.
BFHU True that it is not cannibalistic. But neither is is symbolic. That would be impossible. In the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke, to symbolically “eat the flesh” or “drink the blood” of someone meant to persecute and assault him. Did you know that there are several places in the Bible where “eating flesh and drinking blood” is used in a symbolic or metaphorical way? Lets take a look at what this phrase means when it is used metaphorically.
So, we see that when “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” is used metaphorically or symbolically in the Bible it means destruction and murder. And it is still true today. If you got a letter that said someone wanted “to eat your flesh and drink your blood” you would take it as an evil threat of some kind and not an invitation to loving communion. Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 but no one would know just what He had in mind until the Last Supper. Communion in His body and blood is literal but not cannibalistic. Jesus feeds us spiritually with Bread from Heaven. Only the faithful stayed with him. Only faith helps us believe Him.
WOW: He is the bread from heaven. Spiritually. Remember, many of His disciples left Him that day because they thought He was saying to literally eat His body. Jn 6:66
BFHU Yes, many left Him BECAUSE THEY KNEW HE WAS SPEAKING LITERALLY AND NOT SPIRITUALLY OR SYMBOLICALLY. Did you know that in the Greek, when people began to question His seeming cannibalism, he switched from a general word for “eat” to a word that means “chew” or “gnaw.” Jesus did not try to explain in any way that he was not speaking literally.
WOW:Where did Jesus Teach us to erect statues of His mom and make beaded necklaces to hold and pray to His mom with? Teach us to erect statues of dead people, great servants of God or not, and put them in our churches?
BFHUBut where in Scripture is it forbidden? Statues and pictures were used to remind thousands of generations of Christians, unable to read, about the stories and people of the Bible, as well as heroes of the faith. That is a very good thing and still a wonderful tradition in our churches. There is nothing scripturally wrong with it.
–WOW: Is Peter really the Rock upon whom the church is founded, or is Christ the eternal Rock whom Peter confessed, the real foundation?
BFHU Both. There is no denying that Jesus said to Peter
” Rock, upon this Rock I will build my Church”
WOW: Peter is not strong enough to be the foundation of the Church of Christ, only Christ is!!!
BFHUNot by himself, but supported by Jesus he can do all things, in Christ.
WOW: We all represent Christ here!! Christ in us is the true Rock of the Church.
BFHU That is true in one way. But it does not refute the Truth that Jesus founded a Church and He founded it upon Peter and gave him and his successors the Keys of the Kingdom to bind and loose. (a Hebrew idiom that means to rule)
WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us to believe that Mary never sinned and has already ascended to heaven, making her equal to Jesus Christ?
BFHU Mary is not equal to Jesus. We believe in the Trinity. Mary is fully human and not divine. She is human in exactly the same way as Adam and Eve were in the fullness and sinlessness of humanity. Adam and Eve sinned. Mary by the graces and power of God, not her own strength, did not sin. Gabriel addresses her as FULL OF GRACE. This is her title. If one is FULL of grace there is no room for sin.
WOW: Christ is the only one who is sinless!!
BFHUNo. Many humans may have a fallen nature but are not guilty of sin. Innocent babies and children who have not reached the age of accountablility. Nevertheless, they all need a savior. As did Mary. She was saved from a fallen nature, before she sinned .
WOW: We all await the resurrection, He is the firstfruits. You deny the grace of God when you say that Jesus couldn’t be born by a woman, a normal human like you and me, yes a servant of God, but human, with sin, dead, alive in the spirit, yes, but powerless to save you.
BFHU: God could have been born by any woman He chose. But why not create a pure vessel to reside in for nine months and to be your mother?
WOW: Read Acts. Baptism is a symbolic act by a conscious choice, by a repentant person to turn from sin and choose Christ for salvation. That’s what Baptism is. A baby can’t do that. A baby can’t repent. A baby doesn’t know what sin is. You can splash all the water on their head that you want, but don’t call it what it isn’t. It’s not baptism. Jesus got baptized when he was 30.
BFHU Please see my post Infant Baptism You make many assertions in your comments about baptism. Please back them up with scripture. I believe that what you have said above are Protestant Traditions about Baptism. Nowhere are they asserted in Sacred Scripture.
WOW: I know these aren’t all the teachings and maybe you’ll say they aren’t right, and maybe you don’t practice them, but you are still supporting them. And I know also that many Protestant churces are full of idolatrous worship and bad doctrine. If you look up the true doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, you will find these and many others. If these teachings aren’t found in the Scriptures, even in the Apocrypha which I enjoy, good Jewish history, then where are they from? Man? You can try to support these things with interpretation from the Scripture but in the end, they just aren’t there and you are left standing on the teachings of deceived men.
BFHU We accept and believe in the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture. BUT…it must be interpreted. We have historical, 2000 year-old, interpretations to draw upon. Protestant interpretations are only about 500 years old or less. I will go with the ancient faith, thank you.
WOW: The Bible is the only objective (unbiased) source we have to know that what we teach is the truth. If man’s teaching can’t be found in the Scriptures, then how can we know it’s true? Jesus taught the Law and the Prophets, the Scriptures. That’s what we have to teach today, the Scriptures. Don’t you want to know that you know the truth? for sure?
BFHU I do want the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. I have examined the scriptures and the historical claims of the Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church. I did not want to be Catholic but I had no Choice when I examined the competing claims or the Protestants and the Catholics. You might want to read my Conversion Story
WOW: Please, read the Scriptures.
BFHUAs you may have seen from my Conversion Story, I have certainly done this extensively.
WOW: You must worship in spirit and truth. The apostles didn’t even imagine the things that the Catholic church is doing.
BFHU How can you KNOW what the apostles imagined? John clearly says that the world could not contain all the books if they were to be written about everything Jesus did. John 21:25
WOW: Turn from idolatry. Repent. Turn to the Lord, Jesus Christ.
BFHU I know you mean well.
Dear Wow,
You are quoted as saying “Christ is our model”, I whole heartedly agree with you. We as Catholic Christians believe this also. And as scripture confirms: 1 Corinthians 11:1
New Living Translation (©2007)
And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.
So lets looks at Jesus’ first miracle:
John 2:2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ MOTHER said to Him, “They have no more wine.”
John 2:4 “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.”
John 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Read between lines 2:4 and 2:5 notice how Mary just turns to the servants without further discussion with Jesus as if to close the conversation with Him in a gesture of Motherly authority. This shows the close bond between the Two and that he LISTENS to His Mothers intercession. So here we have a Marian intercession in which Our Lord listened to His Mothers request and performed his first miracle, do we not! So by your own words this points to using Christ’s life as a model and by scripture we are to imitate Him are we not? Or should we just leave the Catholic Church and dismiss this particularly deep understanding of Christ’s model all together as most protestants do to serve thier own purposes? No thanks, I will stick to my deeper understanding, to turn away from this would be a step away from Christ and the deeper understanding of the purpose of the Woman He created to be His Mother Whom He not only deeply loved but honored by the Commandments He gave us. God Bless, Anno D
Hey Wow, look at John 21:24-25 and also John 20:30-31. They say that Jesus did many more signs and wonders that were not recorded. So we interpert this that our Lord did and taught many more things than were recorded. You just have to realize that God gave us the Bible as a great tool and a great way to understand Him, but it is not the only source of the teachings of Jesus. BFHU is so right! You have to realize that you cannot put Jesus in a box and act as if it is not in the Bible is does not exist. The teaching of “Sola scriptura ” is flawed completely. At the time of the Last Supper, did Jesus hand out copies of the New Testament to His Apostles? So for first century of Christianity there was nothing written about Jesus because they all thought He was coming back soon. Read Paul! He thought so too! Are those early Christians, and the Apostles sitting in hell right now because they didn’t know the Bible that did not exist? Paul says that you should arm yourself with Scripture (part of the basis of Sola scriptura) but he was speaking of the Old Testament, which was in existence at the time. The New Testament was not formed for another 300+ years!! For 300 years the follower of Jesus had no faith? Are they too sitting in hell for not knowing their Bible? Millions of Catholic for centuries only heard the New Testament writing at Mass and didn’t have or know their bible after this. Are they too sitting in hell? Do you have a right to make a judgment on them when Jesus clearly states that you should not judge anyone? Please study the Bible more than you have. Remember that our faith is based completely on the Gospels and the Gospels only. The rest of the New Testament is a great reflection of the Gospels, but the Gospels contains the spoken Word of God! As Paul says it is the Gospels, the true Good News of Jesus, that we should be professing and should have our faith in. BTW the New Testament was put together by Catholics.
It’s time to abandon denominations and divisions in the body of Christ.
BFHU I couldn’t agree more. All those who left the One, Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church should return to her.
WOW:All Christians everywhere form the body of Christ, whether you agree completely with your brother or not. Love is the fulfillment of the Law. Love God, Love your neighbor. The apostles did this. The apostles were Christians. They weren’t Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Orthodox, Lutheran, or whatever you want. They were Christians. They believed in Christ, the Lord, and they taught good doctrine from the Scriptures.
BFHU The Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Jesus on His apostles. No other Christian Church can claim a 2010 year history.
WOW:Remember, they didn’t even have a New Testament. They taught from the Old Testament.
BFHU You are one of the few Protestants I have encountered who know this.
WOW: And you surely can’t find defense for most of the church’s problems today in the Old Testament. There is no room for it. God is sovereign, holy, true, just, merciful, loving. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, He is the Word and the Truth. Teach the truth in the church and you will see revival. Teach the gospel and nothing else. Just Jesus. That’s all.
BFHU All churches have problems b/c of the humans who belong to them, just like the Israelites of the OT. But God never abandoned them or started a new chosen people when they sinned.
What I’m not shocked at is the typical lack of depth that non-Cathlolics on this page are projecting. HE WHO HATH WISDOM! So lets look at this with wisdom shall we. Why in the Commandments is “Honor you Father and Mother” written before “Thou shalt not kill”? Jesus would have to follow these commandments because God is a God of ORDER and it states this in scripture. BUT I’m seeing WOW saying things like “Christ should be our MODEL”. Well going by that methodology then Our Lords Mother can be a mediator for all Christians. Just think about it, The FIRST miracle Our Lord did was a Marian Intercession, Our Lady interceded on behalf of the bride and groom at the wedding asking Our Lord to help with the wine. So if Our Lords life is to be a “model” for all christians as WOW is saying then we can ask Our lady to mediate for us. All too often I hear poor protestants say that they have a “personal relationship” with Jesus but then I hear them say that Mary is “just his mother”. Now say that same thing to any friend of yours. Say OH THATS JUST YOUR MOTHER and see how long you keep that friend. Jesus hears all we say, so I dare all you non-Catholics to say this to His face or would it just be WISE to honor His Blessed Mother, the Chuech has thought all of this through ages ago. This just goes to show just how DETATCHED non-Catholics are from Our Lord. Return home you lost sheep, we love you all and want you to come in from the wilderness called protestantism. And stop using a twisted version of a Catholic compiled book called the Bible against the one true Church. God Bless you all.
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matthew 12:46-50
Dear ILoveJesus,
It looks like you’re taking the typical ALL OR NOTHING, EITHER THIS OR THAT view of a Catholic compiled book commonly known as The Holy Bible. Staying with your “LITERAL” methodology let’s look at the following verses shall we?
International Standard Version (©2008)
Matthew 28:20
teaching them to obey everything that I’ve commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”
So according to your protestant way of thinking, this means that our Lord will NOT be with us after the end of time? I think not.
Webster’s Bible Translation
2 Samuel 6:23
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Ok how about this one? So did she give birth after she died? I think not.
New International Version (©1984)
Matthew 1:25
“But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus”.
This one’s my favorite. This is what the certain prots like saying about Our Lady, that she had sex with ST. Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Now, we have priests who stay celibate so Joseph knowing that Mary had just given birth to God and that he was now the care giver of both of them, do you really think that sex was on his mind or would the task of caring and giving honor to both of them be his main focus? Shall we think the best of him or not?
Let’s look at your miss quotations in a philosophical manner as the Catholic Church would. In miss quoting the Bible the way you have, you are saying that our Lord and Saviour Publicly denounces his own mother and therefore breaks Commandment number 5 and goes on to hypocritising himself by negating his own words in the following verse:
New Living Translation (©2007)
Matthew 5:17
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
We as Catholics try to give the highest honour to all that is Holy but the problem is this modern age where these prots and admittedly some Catholics have an arrogance and attempt to be their own Popes. I’ve heard it said by prots that “I have a personal relationship with Jesus” and that “Mary is the just his mother”. Just his mother eh? You go and say that to any friend of yours, say your mother is just your mother, be sincere about it and mean it and see what the reaction will be. Now when you say “Mary is just his mother”, Jesus hears this so how do you think you make Our Lord feel?
We must keep praying for all prots that they see the truth and give honour and worship to God and veneration to all Holy peoples associated with Him.
Remember that there are varying levels to verses in scripture and it’s impossible to take it all literaly.
God love you keep, Amen
P.S. ILoveJesus,
I also found this little gem of a verse:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Matthew 15:26
And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”
Again using your literal methodology, Jesus is being a racist. Well that’s hardly the case here. I’ve lived for a spell in the Holy Land and there is an element of sarcasm in the culture that exists amoung all the peoples of the middle east. Jesus was with his followers when this woman approuched. The Jews thought non-Jews to be “dogs” and Jesus knew this. Jesus said this not as to call her a name but to publicly brake down racial divides and thus confirming her faith in him infront his followers. Jesus knew that his followers were going out into the world to convert. Do you see why the Catholic Church allowed this passage to remain in the Bible when it was compiling it? So again, it’s impossible to take all scripture as literal. Please read with wisdom.
God love you and keep you, Amen
I’d like to add to your CORRECT argument that Jesus had no brothers or sisters. The prots are desperate to prove that Jesus had brothers and sisters. But there is simply no basis for that argument in that Catholic book known as the Bible. It is just another lie about Jesus’ Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ of Nazareth in the year 33AD. Protestantism is a man made religion, A sect pops up whenever some Joe Shmoe feels “inspired”. Unlike the Catholic Church, there is no assurance that the Holy Spirit is who is in charge. Instead, it could be the evil one, stirring the pot of division. Jesus prayed that we be ONE body, and of ONE mind, not 40,000 denominations, or however many we’re up to now. I lose track.
Now, back to the discussion. To answer the “brothers and sisters” fallacy, I have copied and pasted the following from the Bible Christian Society website:
{Mk 6:3 says, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?” We need to realize a few things here about these “brothers and sisters”: #1, there was no word for cousin, or for nephew or niece, or for aunt or uncle in ancient Hebrew or Aramaic – the words that the Jews used in all those instances were “brother” or “sister”. An example of this can be seen in Gen 14:14, where Lot, who was Abraham’s nephew, is called his brother.
Another point to consider. If Jesus had had any brothers, if Mary had had any other sons, would the last thing that Jesus did on earth be to grievously offend his surviving brothers? In Jn 19:26-27, right before Jesus dies, it says that Jesus entrusted the care of His mother to the beloved disciple, John. If Mary had had any other sons, it would have been an incredible slap in the face to them that the Apostle John was entrusted with the care of their mother!
Also, we see from Mt. 27:55-56, that the James and Joses mentioned in Mark 6 as the “brothers” of Jesus, are actually the sons of another Mary. And, one other passage to consider is Acts 1:14-15, “[The Apostles] with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with His brothers…the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty.” A company of 120 persons composed of the Apostles, Mary, the women, and the “brothers” of Jesus. Let’s see there were 11 Apostles at the time. Jesus’ mother makes 12. The women, probably the same three women mentioned in Matthew 27, but let’s say it was maybe a dozen or two, just for argument’s sake. So that puts us up to 30 or 40 or so. So that leaves the number of Jesus’ brothers at about 80 or 90! Do you think Mary had 80 or 90 children? She would have been in perpetual labor! No, Scripture does not contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church about the “brothers” of Jesus, when Scripture is properly interpreted in context.} (taken from http://www.biblechristiansociety.com) God Bless. Thank you for defending Jesus’ Church.
You’re absolutly write mate and thanks for that.
Defending the Church is the duty of the laity and I’m glad to see such courage from my Catholic brithers and sisters, OOPs why did’nt mum tell me she had other kids HEHE! What a joke! I feel so sorry for these folks because arrogance mixed with sincerity makes them believe that they are actually helping us poor “lost Catholics” as you’ve probably read on this blog. It’s 40.000 sects, not churches, let all prots get that clear. Christ is not a polygamist, He does’nt have 40.000 churches that He loves as brides just ONE, the Holy Catholic Church, the compiler of the Bible and the true defender of the faith. Keep going brothers and sisters, I know it’s like banging your head against a brick wall but if you bang it long enough the wall will fall.
God love you and keep, Amen
What drives me crazy is that most prots are very sincere Christians who love Jesus. They Just don’t realize that they are in the wrong camp. They need to be in Jesus’ Church. They can use their time, talent and treasure in the Catholic Church, where every Christian belongs. But, you are correct. Its like beating your head against the wall. I once believed the lies told about the Catholic Church, until I prayed that Jesus show me the truth. The devil is the one who is attacking Jesus’ Church, and they (the prots) don’t even know it. The devil is using them to stir up division and dis-unity. Its called divide and conquer. Because, why would the devil want all Christiansl to be united as one? Hmmm? But here is the Biblical TRUTH. Jesus prayed that we be ONE. He founded ONE Church on Earth, the Catholic Church; the only Church with apostolic succession. Anything else is a pretend “church”, founded by man. The protestant argument is self-defeating in every way shape and form. It will not succeed in crushing Jesus’ Church. At the end of the day, Jesus’ Church is the pillar of all truth, and will live forever. She may be bruised and battered from the constant attacks (as Jesus was), but She WILL go on forever. That Catholic book known as the Bible, tells us so. May God bless everyone who reads this. Peace
Dear njtr,
In the words our Saviour said “Forgive them Father, they know not what they do”. I agree with you about their zeal for Christ but you know what? I’ve seen the same in islam as well and at the end of the day they both want for our conversion or our destruction. Go to realcatholictv.com and you’ll see some great shows there if you have’nt already. Thank you for the info you’ve posted, I’ve learned a lot from you so please keep it up, you’re doing a great job.
God love and keep you.
The crowd still recognized that Mary was His mother & his brothers. At another time: Jesus was speaking to a crowd & the crowd asked? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? & His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon & Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Matt 13:55,56
And: Is not this the carpenter’s son, the son of Mary, the brother of James, Jo-ses & Judas & Simon? And are not His sisters here with us? Mark 6:3,4 See also Luke 8:9
The fact that Catholics believe in purgatory completely takes away what Christ did for us on the cross!!! He died for the sins of the whole world (ALL SINS)!!! Jesus said “it is finished” That means it’s done, he paid our debt and needs NO help!!! So, to those of you that have repented and asked Jesus into your heart to be your Lord and Savior be of great cheer, you will be in heaven rejoicing with him someday soon!!! Praise God
It is kind of interesting how WOW hits upon virtually every mistaken myth of the beliefs of the Catholic church. As a protestant it was all the things I was taught about the Catholic Church too! WOW is so misguided and “wow” so was I. After over 2 years of in depth study of the Church I can say I was mislead on many protestant views of the Catholic Church! I encourage people to just find out the Truth! It is not as you have heard!
Happy Weekend!
I’m an ex-Catholic and I disagree completely!!! I’ve read the catechism and know the catholic teachings which go directly against Gods word!!! I wll pray for you!!
@ LoveJC: It’s too bad that you bought into fanaticism. After you get over it, maybe you can find your way back. You must think that Catholics are/were pretty dumb for being pigheadedly wrong for 2000 years.
I will pray that you find your way to Jesus Christ not through the lies of the Catholic church… May Jesus open your eyes and guide you… The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. Psalms 111:10 May God be with you..
With love,
LoveJC
@ LoveJC: You claim to love Jesus but you do not follow his commandments. That’s the perplexity of sola-scriptorists who are so presumptuous of their bigotry and biases. Read Matt 7:21 carefully and hopefully it will put a fear in your heart …
Once again, I will be praying for you…
With love,
LoveJC…:)
Nice cop out. Yawn….
Dear LoveJC,
We think Purgatory is very much in line with Scripture. For instance:
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
Catholicism simply does not agree with your private interpretation which is proscribed in Scripture:
2 Peter 1:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation..
bfhu – Once again you are misusing what Peter meant – he is saying that scripture came from the Holy Spirit not from man. Therfore when
men read it they can completely rely on it. It does not mean we are not to study scripture on our own.
If what you say was the case millions of catholics would need a priest on hand to interpret their daily readings.
@ Charles: It’s not private bible reading but private interpretation that’s in the context. It means that a solo Christian cannot read and interpret a bible verse contrary to the defined doctrines of the Church.
Peter is definitely saying that scripture did not come from man’s private thoughts (interpretation) but from the Holy Spirit. Peter is saying nothing about one not being allowed to read and interpret (understand) scripture for themselves.
If this was the case who would be able to read the Bible – how many
catholics have been put off reading the bible by this misuse of scripture
@ Charles: Try to learn to read scripture in context. If you continue to read one or more verses, it talks about heresies resulting from private interpretation. You may then ask what are heresies? Heresies are dissension from or at variance with established beliefs (defined Christian doctrines).
Christians can certainly be deceived by word of mouth or twisting of scripture – this does not mean that no one is allowed to interpret what we read in the bible – to read something without interpretation would defy logic.
Peter is not saying don’t read the Bible – many catholic sites have misused this scripture to pretend that he has.
@ Charles: The point is not to interpret the bible in such a way that’s contrary to defined doctrines (called heresies). That’s the safeguard for the spiritual welfare of the Christians. No one is saying not to read the bible for edification. Do you know that the Church actually has only “defined” about a dozen bible passages so it’s not like she is limiting bible reading in any sense. Even with the defined passages (like Holy Eucharist in John 6), there’s still room for different layers of spiritual meaning and interpretation for them (as long as they don’t contradict Sacred Bible and Sacred Traditions … to be sure, the two does not contradict each other either).
Charles,
Indeed the scriptures come from the In Holy Spirit but though or by men.
It is e.g. the gospel accordig to LUKE, the letters of PAUL, the revelation of JOHN or the gospel of THOMAS. How do you know which scripture comes from the Holy Gost. Why do you accept the gospel of Luke as inspired but I think you do not accept the gospel of Thomas as inspired.
Reading the bible is okay, but who do misuse the bible? The Protestants, interpreting the bible by private judgement or the Catholics holding the infallible interpretation.
As I said the early Christians knew what scripture was sound – the gospel of Thomas would be rejected by a spirit filled Christian – the fact that this was ratified more than 300 years later by a council does not change this – paul pointed out the false gospels to the Galations – 300 years before the council.
Charles,
According to Harnack, a famous Protestant theologian, the gospels were written after Paul died. Again Charles, WHO told you WHICH scriptures are inspired.
Why would mathew mark luke and john wait until paul died before writing the gospels down – did they say we have waited about 30 years
now is the time to write the gospels – try getting facts about an event
30 years later. The gospels were written by different witnesses at the time or very shortly after the time that Jesus spoke them. Luke would interview the witnesses and he himself was one as were the other three.
Dear Charles,
They did not “wait until Paul died.” Historians believe that the apostles thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. As time went on they realized they should write their memoirs of Jesus. Jesus NEVER told them to write the Gospels. He Never instructed them to write new Scriptures. But as time went on they decided it would be good to write.
My Protestant Bible says:
Matthew was probably written between 80-90 AD
Mark-Before 70 AD
Luke 80-90 AD
John 90-100 AD
St. Paul is thought to have died 68 AD
Romans 56 AD
I & II Cor 49-51 AD
It is not a “protestant” bible which says this but a commentary in a protestant bible.
A catholic catechist in our church said that Genesis was symbolic
which is heresy.
It goes without saying that Jesus knew before the foundation of the world every word in the gospel that would be written by the four writers.
Jesus did not need to say anything about writing the gospels.
All the gospels were written at the time they were spoken – the populace was not illiterate – they were Jews and could mainly read and write. Matthew could not be beyond 70 AD . The Christians knew about the matthew prophecy re ” … when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies…….
They escaped over the rooftops – the Jews who thought they would win
stayed for the massacre as predicted by Jesus.
Josephus and some others wrote about how the Christians escaped on this prophecy. Even the doubters were saved by an interlude in the siege – they also escaped over the roof tops into edom and did not go down to get belongings – they would read this prophecy about AD 65
when the invasion started.
There is no scritpture that talks about purgatory in the bible!! This is not private interpretation this is something Catholics have added on, plain and simple!! You can say I’m interpreting something all you want but it’s impossible to interpret something that isn’t even there!!!
@LoveJC, You were quoted as saying: “it’s impossible to interpret something that isn’t even there!!!”. Ok show us the word Trinity in scripture, you do believe in the trinity don;t you? Your arguement is weak at best. I will pray for you
The Trinity is obviously in scripture – only a heretic would deny the Trinity – although the word itself is not used.
I agree with you, The Holy Spirit is in scripture but I believe I said the word Trinity didn’t I? When the protestant arguement is based on something that isn’t seen in scripture but is a GIVEN through wisdom of the scripture then I always ask them to show me where it is but you won’t find it yet we believe it, that’s my point. If something doesn’t appear then it’s through wisdom that we know it to be true like our Holy Trinity.
Yes Charles. That shows the theological doctrines are strictly in line with the Scripture, though the titles of the doctrines are not mentioned in the Bible at all.
Maybe someday you will repent and ask Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior, only then will you see and seek his truth… The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. Psalms 111:10 I will keep praying for you…:)
LOL Repent? Prove that I don’t. Mate you don’t even know what my favorite colour is let alone what’s in my soul. Maybe you need to read and comprehend Commandment NO.9 and stop with your useless assumptions about peoples faiths here, especialy when as a mere mortal you can’t see whats in our hearts. I love it how when backed into corner protestants like yourself always go down the road of self acclaimed piety (the very thing you folks claim the Pope does) and start using phrases like I’ll keep praying for you” just because they don’t know how to answer an accusation which they in the first place raised. You do realise this is not a place of prayer but a forum to discuss theological matters. Yes we are to pray for eachother but can you please focus on the purpose of why we’re here and not get all Jim Jones on us. I have pateince though and will wait for your answer and once again here is your quote: “You can say I’m interpreting something all you want but it’s impossible to interpret something that isn’t even there!!!” So patiently I simply ask for a reasonable answer: Please show us where you find the word Trinity in the Bible? And thank you for your prayers, no need to repeat that just a simple answer to the question will do. God Bless, Anno D
I will keep praying for you…:)
Thanks for your prayers I do appreciate them but THEOLOGY dude, theology. And WE will pray that YOU are able to come up with a reasonble answer to the rebutles of your false accusations and assumptions instead of this “I’ll keep praying for you” cop out that you keep repeating. It’s ok to drop your pride and admitt that you don’t have a response but if you do then Please enlighten us. I personaly don’t think you have one to offer. I predict your response will be “I’ll pray for you”. LOL (lots of love) Anno D
I’m not copping out! I believe in God’s word (Bible) and you will someday be answering to the fact that you are not following it… It seems to me as though you want to argue! So yes and you may laugh all you want but I’m still praying for you…
Not an arguement just wanting an answer to this (arguementative) statement yours: You can say I’m interpreting something all you want but it’s impossible to interpret something that isn’t even there!!! So patiently I’m asking where you find and show us the word Trinity in the Holy scriptures? Oh and you accuse me of not following the Bible, can you prove that I don’t follow the Bible? I’m really keen to here this. Please keep your false witness to yourself and back up your statement for earlier. I wasn’t laughing LOL also means lots of love, thats why I put brackets arround them. I hope you read the Bible better than you read my posts. Yes one day we ALL will stand in front of God to answer for our lives but please remember that what you are saying here is also heard by God, don’t you have any concience of you are doing with these false accusations? Anno D
I want offer you some sound advice, maybe try not using the words “I will keep praying for you”, as a means to insult peoples moral stature as you are unsuccessfully doing. I don’t think God would like it, It just shows you’ve got limited Biblical knowledge and can’t drop your pride. We’ve seen it all before. You protestants join the forum, throw a punch, get backed into an answerless corner then start praying for us. Again my prediction: you will keep praying for us, am I right…………………………………..:)
@ LoveJC. Catholics don’t follow the Bible? That’s funny, because, the Catholic Church gave YOU the Bible, so how don’t we follow the Bible? All you do is give some crazy INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible, and say that Jesus’ Church isn’t following your private unqualified INTERPRETATIONS and fantasies (although well-meaning). But the Church came BEFORE the Bible. Therefore, if there were anything in the Bible that would disagree with the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church (aka Jesus’ Church) wouldn’t have put it in there. Common sense dictates thay your argument doesn’t hold up. BTW, I was once a protestant. Its a man-made religion. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. Re-read Mt:16.
The Holy spirit gave us the Bible and the NT gospels and letters which
had been used for 300 years by christians before the official canon
was adopted. Christians already knew the accepted NT scriptures.
@charles allan. Agreed. The Holy Spirit did give us the Bible. The Holy Spirit was with Jesus’ Church when she compiled the canonical books. Jesus assured us that He would be with His Church forever. On a personal level, the Holy Spirit also dwells within all of us, if we ask. Without the Holy Spirit, we would be overcome by our natural sinful nature.
Dear Charles,
What you say is correct. But there is more….The Christians were also familiar and accepted other writings for use in liturgy that were not later canonized. But no one is trying to convince anyone that no one knew or read any of the writings that were canonized 400 years later. The point is that people who believe in sola scriptura and Luther himself, possessed the whole Bible. It seems to make a lot of sense to believe that one should use ONLY the Bible to derive doctrine for Christian belief.
But most people never realize that there are many problems with this idea. For instance:
1. This cannot have been a divine principle because the Bible as we no know it was not known for 400 years after the birth of Christ.
2. Most Churches for years did not possess a complete set of the writings that centuries later became what we know today at the Bible.
3. For the first 400 years of Christianity or so churches read excellent writings in their liturgies that were later NOT canonized.
4. Scripture must be interpreted. To decide which of several differing interpretations is authentic one MUST go outside of the Bible and determine what has always and everywhere been believed. But b/c Protestants do not understand that they do not have infallible interpretation, they split and split and split into various sects based on differing interpretations.
5. Sola Scriptura is not found in scripture and is therefore self-refuting.
6. Jesus never told the disciples to write the New Testament
7. The Bible is not a book of systematic theology therefore it is VERY difficult to derive doctrine from it alone.
8. Protestants, without realizing it, automatically adopted a lot of Catholic doctrine and Tradition (and rejected others) . They did not really sit down with the Bible Alone and make up their religions. That is why most Protestant believe in the Trinity and yet this doctrine is not clearly explicated in scripture alone and the word never appears in Scripture. This doctrine was clarified at Catholic Church councils. Primarily the Nicean council.
Irenaeus – was 300 years before the meeting to decide the bible :-
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”
The apostles like John would also have been well aware of the inspired books and they would have certainly talked about this.
I would certainly doubt that “most churches (in the first 400 years) would not have all the writings” that are in today’s bible. It would be their duty to have all the writings eg – in order that they could preach the gospels and pauls letters.
Scripture interprets scripture – to go outside the Bible to interpret scripture would be highly dangerous. Better to reread the scripture over and over and pray for understanding. Because how do we know what has always been believed at one point in time is the truth- it could be heretical writings we are looking at.
The catholic church has splits – but under one umbrella – my daughter
in India attending a charity noticed the catholic priest bowing to a hindu
god – it was a monkey statue I think – there was sycnretism in many of the churches- I know this priest and assume he did it to avoid divisions – but bowing to a false god ????
When paul says do not go beyond what is written – he must have been referring to the known inspired scripture.
Today there is much good liturgy which is not in the Bible but this does
not exclude sola scripture.
St Cyril of Jerusalem
“This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.” [5]
@charles allan. These are good citations that you are making, but they are NOT from scripture. So, they are irrelevant. Could you please limit your quotes to scripture ONLY, becaues scripture is the ENTIRE Word of God right? It ends there. “Sola scriptura” right? But….. now that we’re on the subject, could you please tell us where in scripture that you find “sola scriptura”? Or was that a man-made idea? Please elaborate. Please give us some Bible verses that support sola scriptura. Thank you.
The citations are from the church fathers who are proclaiming sola scripture – you are now saying they are irrelevant since they dont come from the bible – so it seems that you are now claiming sola scripture.
“Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
“Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgement. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Peter,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Corinthians 1:10-13
@charles allan. Yes. These are the pro “sola scriptura” verses. We all follow the Bible (a Catholic book), and we are all familiar with them. But how do these verses suggest that scripture is the ONLY authority? They only state that scripture is profitable. No one on here will disagree that Scripture is God’s Word, and is profitable in solving disputes; but you still haven’t shown us that Scripture is the ONLY authority. That’s my point. Please show me where the Bible tells us that Scripture is the ONLY authority. You can’t.
I did but you did not read them
“Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
When paul says do not exceed what is written – he is meaning what is written in the scripture texts – the fact that these texts were canonised in the bible 400 years later does not mean that they were not read and circulated when paul was living.
Luke wrote his gospel when he was alive obviously for the people of his time :
“Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the EXACT TRUTH about the things you have been taught.” Luke 1:1-4
luke is saying by his gospel account you will know the EXACT truth.
When Jesus said man cannot live (have eternal life) by bread alone
but by EVERY WORD (every word in the bible) which comes from the father …. Jesus then used scripture to defeat the devil.
IST JOHN
“As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
@charles allan I DID read them, and I stand by my statement that they do NOT prove “sola scriptura”. I was once a protestant, and I am “born again” (Jn3:3). The Holy Spirit transformed my sinful life. There is not one thing in the Bible that I disagree with. NOT ONE!!! I believe EVERY single thing that is written in the Bible!!! It is the Word of God, PERIOD!!!! I believe everything from Adam and Eve to the Book of Revelations, and I take it all literally. We could talk Bible verses if you’d like. But, here’s the thing… the enemy is very crafty. We know from the Bible that the CHURCH is the pillar of all truth. We know that the CATHOLIC Church is apostolic, and can trace its lineage in an unbroken chain back to St Peter (Mt:16).
What the enemy has done to YOU (and me at one time), is he has taken Jesus’ Church (the Catholic Church), the sacraments, and the Body of Christ away from you, so that you may not have FULL communion with Christ. Instead he left you with “sola scriptura”, and bargain basement Bible studies in dime-a-dozen (so-called) “churches” where any theology goes. Each “church” disagrees with the other, and the devil stands back and marvels at the division that he created, via the reformation.
I know that you love Jesus. So do I. He is my Lord and Savior, who died for my sins. I have a personal relationship with Him. No one comes to the Father, but through Him. But this “sola scriptura” business is from the devil. Don’t you see it? he took Jesus ONE Holy Apostolic Church away from you. he took the sacraments away from you. he left you to flounder on your own with “sola scriptura”, and pretty soon he will take scripture away from you too. he is very patient. he plays games because he knows that his fate is sealed. Misery loves company. he doesn’t want Christians to be ONE.
I’m sorry, but protestantism is man made. The Catholic Church is the Church of the apostles, PERIOD!!! The lineage is unbroken, from St Peter (the first Bishop of Rome) all the way to Pope Benedict. You can’t dispute that. With all due respect, tell me about the lineage of your new “church”. Who founded it? My Church (the Catholic Church) was founded by Jesus Christ of Nazareth in 33AD. What other organization has lasted that long, through countless centuries of war and scandal? What does that tell you? Pray on it. Peace.
When the eastern orthodox split from rome around 1000 ad who would be able to say who was right – they both still exist and are similar in a lot of ways – will belonging to one or the other affect our eternity – so the roman church has had this big split – seemingly through points of doctrine.
You quote the length of time as being evidence of proof that the catholic church is the one true church – but false religions such as buddism , hinduism etc have been around since the beginning of time
but this does not prove they are right.
@charles allan Does budhism or hinduism have a lineage back to Jesus Christ?
Surkiko are you saying that the eastern orthodox have no lineage back to Jesus.
Buddism and hinduism have no connection with the way the truth and the life – although they have existed for along time.
It is mainly some in the catholic church that is now saying other religions can lead to God which is certainly not in the Bible. This is also one of the deceptions from Medjugorge.
@charles allan As far as other religions leading to God are concerned, Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.” So JESUS (Christianity) is the only path to salvation! Not any other religion! But, does this mean that we should not try to evangelize other “religions”? If someone isn’t already a Christian, should we talk down to them? We can’t evengelize by alienating other groups from the start. We need to respect other religions, so that we can bring them to Christ. That does not mean that other religions lead to salvation, but we have to start somewhere. Jesus Himself also kept company with some questionable individuals; but those who are well do not need a physician.
Well, by that philosophy then why aren’t we all still Jewish, after all our Lord came as a Jew did He not? Or Further back than that, why was Abraham raised as a pagan only to be converted to a monotheist as a mature man? Simply, God has His reasons, this is a question you need to ask your maker. As far as the catholic Church is concerned, it was the only one which was given authority from Jesus himself. Jesus established it and gave it authority to make changes to the jewish faith in order to accomidate gentiles and His teachings. again Jesus is not a poligamist and never divorced the Catholic Church. The very statement by protestants that they have their own churches turns Our Lord into a muslim. The other big thing that protestants so blindly miss is that when they seperate from Jesus’ Church they commit the sin of pride (the sin of ME, ME, ME vailed with the mask of submission to God) and this is satans sin, they go against the will of Our Lord who gave the Catholic Church the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (which no other christian group can say it has) and this point alone is an impossible one for the protester to get arround. God bless, Anno D
do you mean that the 5oo million orthodox and protestant churches are excluded from salvation. Also for 300 years the churches in asia and jerusalem were not ruled by rome.
Sola scripture
“Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to WRITE it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the EXACT TRUTH about the things you have been taught.” Luke 1:1-4
2 Timothy 3:15 – “For from thy infancy thou hast known the Sacred Writings, which are ABLE to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
I also agree that the Holy Spirit gave us the NT scriptures however one must submit to historical fact that God already knew who He wanted to send His message through and who he wanted to assign the task of cannonising His Bible and the undeniable fact is God chose the only Church in existence at the time and which is still the Only Church in existence today, the Catholic Church. (as I said before, Jesus loves His Church as a bride, is NOT a poligamist and does NOT believe in divorce). It’s true that the early Christians knew the inspired NT scriptures but they also knew the uninspired verses too. Such as the Gnostic christians who under Besiledes, believed that Jesus escaped the cross but the hear say persisted and this fantasy we find re-emurged in islam 600 yrs later. The Catholic Church had to physicly stop these heretics. To deny Gods love for The Catholic Church is to deny the Bible which He gave us through it. People will see the truth and deny it to justify their own agendas and this is called pride, and pride is the work of lucifer.
God bless, Anno
BFHU – Your responses are very measured and well done. Thank you for responding so kindly, but definitively. Keep up the good work!
Catholicsview:
Exactly! Pam is a spirit filled Christian girl! God bless you! One of the people who led me to this faith is Pam and her wonderfully patient answers! I know our Lord smiles on her work every minute of the day!!! 🙂
Thanks Alecia. Hey! Easter is just around the corner. You must be excited. I am excited for you!
God Bless Pam Forrester bfhu.wordpress.com
It is amazing to me how lost Catholics are. Nothing but repetition and useless prayers. Doing things with no soul, just for the sake of doing them.
BFHU: Wow! How are you able to judge the hearts of Catholics at prayer? ”
“Let’s say the hail mary 50 times.” Not scriptural, just tradition and made up stuff that nobody needs to do. Why not just follow the bible?
BFHU: Are not all prayers “made up stuff” so to speak? When you pray do you ever use your own words to pray?
We do follow the Bible. Nothing in our faith contradicts it. Our Faith only contradicts Protest-antism
It doesn’t say, “thou must say 50 hail mary’s” in the bible, so why do it?
BFHU: It is a Biblical prayer for the most part and what is not in scripture is doctrinal.
Hail Mary full of grace blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
This part of the prayer is doctrinal. Jesus was God. Mary was His mother. Mary was the Mother of God. We are sinners. Mary is alive in Heaven and part of the Body of Christ. We are to pray for one another so we ask Mary to Pray for us now and at the hour of our death, lest Satan tempt us to sin and thereby win our soul for Hell.
Why not pray as Jesus prayed, do as Jesus did and stop inventing stuff that isn’t biblical? Who cares if the bible doesn’t forbid it, just stop doing it.
BFHU:We pray the Our Father at every mass. Are all of your prayers straight out of the Bible? On what authority do you command Catholics to do what you say?
There is absolutely no reason to pray to Mary or any other saint. God knows our situation. God is omnipotent and omnipresent. He is all seeing and all knowing and he knows what we need before we even ask.
BFHU: That is all very true. However, He seems to always work through human beings for some reason. Therefore, James tells us:
Your suggestion that we don’t need to pray b/c God already knows everything contradicts scripture
I Thess. 5:17 pray without ceasing;
Matthew 7:7 [Prayer and the Golden Rule ] ” Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 17:21” But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting
Even Jesus prayed to His Father, and He, Jesus, was God,
Luke 6:12[ Choosing the Twelve ] It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer
There is no reason or no basis in scripture for anybody to ask anybody but God through Christ.
BFHU:
And I also must add that if the bible doesn’t say anything that forbids prayer for the dead, but doesn’t say anything telling people to pray for the dead, then why do it at all? The bible doesn’t specifically forbid praying to a head of lettuce either, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to pray to a head of lettuce.
BFHU: The Bible does tell us to “pray for one another.” This does not exclude our asking for others to intercede on our behalf to God. Therefore, there is nothing wrong about praying for one another and not each one only praying to God, by himself, for himself. The members of the Body of Christ pray for one another. Mary and the Saints are members of the Body of Christ. They do not need our prayers because they are in Heaven but we need prayer. So we ask them to pray for us. Simple as that.
Follow scripture. Don’t follow the catechism which has butchered the ten commandments which forbids idolatry. Follow the bible as it was meant to be followed. You don’t need a priest to tell you what is right and what is wrong. God’s scripture is right there and the answers are there, just read it and you will see the truth.
BFHU: We do follow the Bible. We do not worship Idols. That is a Protestant tradition-that Catholics worship idols. Charity, please.
Catholics, if you don’t believe me about the Catholic butchering of the Ten Commandments, I implore you to read the ten commandments of the bible and then compare them to what is in the Catechism. Can you tell me what happened to commandment NUMBER TWO?
BFHU: We simply number them differently. And we numbered them that way long before the Protestants numbered them the way that they do, to specifically try to bolster their contention that Catholics worship idols.
Please see my post–>Why Did the Catholic Church DROP the Commandment about Idolatry?
Dear John,
As a devout Jew, did’nt our lord recite prayers repitively? You know when jews repeat the prayer in thier temples: “SHMA ISRAEL, ADONAI ELOHEINU, ADONAI EHUD”? And Jesus (COMMANDED) us when He said “THIS IS HOW YOU SHOULD PRAY”, Jesus then gave us the Our Father. According to your philosophy, we should only pray the Our Father ONCE and then never say it again because it’s “repititious”. To say otherwise is anti-Christ. Also the Hail Mary is in scripture and scripture tells us that all generations shall call Our Lady Blessed and that’s what the Church does. It takes that step to respect to Our Lords Mother. If you use Our Lords life as our model, then On the cross Jesus said “son this your Mother” so we are to take Mary into our homes and honor her. If we use the life of Jesus as a model for our lives then you can’t deny the fact that Jesus’ first mirrical was due to a Marian intercession when His blessed Mother interceded on behalf of the bride and groom at the wedding.
READ THIS EVERYONE. I will pose a question to all protestants and if they dare tackle it you will see three possibilities:
1) They will deny the first
2) They will deny the second
3) In good protestant form, they will fabricate an answer through private interperetation.
Here it is: Tell us what is meant in King James 2000 Bible (©2003) it reads
1) Revelation 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
2) Isa. 42:1-7; 49:7-9.
Will God make his special servant to be a covenant for his people?
Comment: Isaiah used poetry and symbolism to describe a special servant of God. This symbolism was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Matthew 12:17-21 says that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 42:1-4, and in Luke 4:18-21, Jesus says that he was fulfilling Isaiah 42:7. Acts 13:47 says that Jesus is the “light for the Gentiles.”
The Messiah-Servant was the covenant — he was the basis of the relationship between God and his people. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can have an eternal relationship with God. “The Redeemer will come to Zion,” Isaiah 59:20 predicts, “to those in Jacob who repent of their sins.” God will make a covenant with these repentant people. His Spirit will be upon them, and his words will remain in them (verse 21). This is the new covenant.
The questions for you protestants is this:
1) If Jesus is the new covenant the isn’t Mary the Ark having carried Him and raising Him as a child?
2) If not then what was the ark of God’s covenant seen in Revelation 11:19. Does this mean that God allows statues in Heaven?
3) Waiting for your self interperetation:
But hang on: American Standard Version Bible: 2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
But before I go John. Please tell all of us why Commandment 2 was stored in an Ark that God instructed to have golden statues on top of? Am I following a hypocritical God?
Oh please help educate us lost Catholics!!
Anno – you have misused 2 peter 1 ;20 as many catholics seem to do – it means that all the bible comes from the Holy Spirit and is not made up by the writer. It is therefore realiable and true.
This verse has nothing to do with forbidding a person reading the bible and interpretating it for himself.
Well, when you put that one : American Standard Version Bible: 2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation together with this one:
1 Corinthians 1:10
New International Version (©1984)
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
AND…..
In revelatons it says He who has “WISDOM” and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t refering to just using wisdom with this verse alone. So wisdom and historical fact dictates that when man has made his own iinterpretation he then goes on to cause divisions. Yes it’s natural for all to have their own loving take on scripture, I’m not denying this but when it turn into a gross partisanship is when the enemy is getting between us “divide et inpera”.
God bless, Anno D
Anno
You are trying to misuse what peter said by joining it together with two other unrelated scriptures. Paul commended the bereans even though they were testing what he said and would have split if it had not agreed with the bible. Yes Jesus wanted unity but not if it was against the truth. Christians were to expel those who preached a different gospel.
Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death… This was added on!!
Deut. 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”
Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”
“The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160)
Oh my goodness mate,
Here we have knowledge without reason once again. Now, I had to take the following from a Catholic Bible because all you prots are so predictably hell bent on denegrating the mother of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Luke 1:28
And the ANGEL being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Are these God’s words or the angels words???
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Luke 1:42
And she (Elizabeth) cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Are these God’s words or Elizabeth’s words???
Don’t you guys read the Bible in your bible studies and then pray together? Is this, As you say, adding to the word of God???
Ok lets move on. Tell us, is this the word of God or his betrayer?
(John 12:4-7). 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was going to betray him) said, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfumed oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?” 6 (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box he used to take what was put into it.)
Word of God or his betrayer???
Oh and what next from you prots? Are you going to accuse the Catholic Church of adding to the word of God because we put a TABLE OF CONTENTS in the Bible which you happily use to find verses to use against us? You lot should know that not all spoken word in the Bible is the word of God or are you saying that Judas’ word is the word of God?
Since you’re quoting Old Testament. This is what we do in our Latin Mass, which is the original Mass which goes back 2000 years and in it we have incense offered up to God, do you? Read:
King James Version
Malachi 1:11-12
11For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
You prots have to realize that THE Church has been arround for +2000 yrs. It’s pretty much seen it all and has carefully thought through the Scriptures. You should also admit that you come to us as dicriminators wearing the veil of people who wants to save but it’s not true and we forgive you. Please foregive me for being so blunt.
Big Love and God Bless from Australia.
Hey mate!!! First off I was talking about the prayer “Hail Mary” that you pray! The reason I didn’t put in the first part
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Is because this is in the bible!!
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen. (This part is not in th Bible!)
I guess I needed to make clearer for you…
As to your comment about the table of contents being an addition to the bible I’m not going to take the bait on such an illogiclal bait and switch argument, you know exactly what I meant and you’re simply ignoring the truth… If you want to worship, praise and pray to something other than God that is your prerogative, however as you do know the word of God you will be without excuse before the judgement throne of God… I will pray for you…:)
ILoveJesus,
The verses in Deuteronomy and proverbs are being misapplied in your analysis of the Hail Mary prayer.
First, I am glad you realize that the first part of the prayer comes from Scripture. But there is nothing in the second part that contradicts anything in Scripture. We are asking her to pray for us sinners. We are not worshiping her. We are just asking another member of the Body of Christ to intercede for us.
If the Deuteronomy passage meant absolutely NOTHING more can be added then isn’t the addition of all the rest of the Old Testament, including Proverbs, let alone the addition of the New Testament illegitimate according to your interpretation? There are a lot of commands in all the rest of the Bible that could be construed as add-on’s. These extra commands would seem to come under the prohibition much more than the words of a prayer. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says all prayers must be from Scripture alone. But, I am sure you do not advocate removing all the rest of the OT and New Testament.
Besides, we do not interpret that passage the way you do. We take it for what it says:
He is talking about adding or deleting commands of God. It says nothing about the words of a prayer.
The whole point really comes down to the fact that there is nowhere in the bible that tells us to pray to Mary!! You catholics have now made her your intercessor and co-redeemer!! This role belongs ONLY to Jesus!!
So do you believe that you should never pray for another human being because this role belongs only to Jesus? That is contrary to Scripture. Mary is a co-redeemer in the sense that through her cooperation with God she enabled the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity by giving Jesus her flesh. This belief about Mary’s cooperation/co-redemptrix in no way implies that her role was anywhere near to equivalent to the role of Jesus. Protestants just jump to the wrong conclusion in their eagerness to find fault with the Catholic Church.
You are correct that there is “nowhere in the bible that tells us to pray to Mary”. But there is also NOWHERE in the Bible that tells us everything we believe or do MUST be in the Bible. Your critique of the Catholic Church is equally true of Protestantism.
I am a former Catholic, once I started studying the bible I realized how horribly misinformed I had been!! I’ve heard all the arguments and do not agree with them at all!!! I had my first communion, was confirmed did all the things the Catholics want you to do half of which is not in the bible… You use Catholic doctrine and traditions, you live in half truths and half truths are ultimately lies!!! I now go strictly by the bible, the word of God not by made up doctrine!! Read this from the The Dignities and Duties of the Priest
by St. Alphonsus Liguori C.SS.R.
Doctor of the Church
III
Grandeur of the Priestly Power
The dignity of the priest is also estimated from the power that he has over the real and the mystic body of Jesus Christ. With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged Himself to obey and to come into their hands under the Sacramental Species. We are struck with wonder when we hear that God obeyed the voice of Josue—–The Lord obeying the voice of man—–and made the sun stand when He said move not, O sun, towards Gabaon . . . and the sun stood still. But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests—–HOC EST CORPUS MEUM—–God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes wherever they call Him, and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come, He remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh and give Him for the food of others. “Oh, how very great is their power,” says St. Laurence Justinian, speaking of priests. “A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from Heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did Divine goodness give such power to the Angels. The Angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take Him in their hands, distribute Him to the faithful, and partake of Him as food for themselves.”
In NO way can you compare what happened with Josue to Catholic priests and their so called authority!!
But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests—–HOC EST CORPUS MEUM—–God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes wherever they call Him, and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come, He remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church.
“Oh, how very great is their power,”
This right here is down right arrogance!! Even if you believe in transubstantiation (which I don’t) what they are saying here is blasphemous!!
NO.NO That’s not in the bible, Stick to sola scriptura. That’s what you been preaching here so stick to you philosophy please. I don’t want to see the following from you:
“I now go strictly by the bible, the word of God not by made up doctrine!! Read this from the The Dignities and Duties of the Priest
by St. Alphonsus Liguori C.SS.R.”
I’ve read but only out of interest but I’ll dismiss it because when you quote outside of scripture as you’r doing, you come off as a total Catholic…:)
There goes that bait and switch again!! I obviously know Catholic doctrine since I was brought up in the Catholic church!! As you should obviously know I was pointing out doctrine from the Catholic church that is not in the bible and simply made up by the Catholics!! And there’s so much more but not enough time in the day to go through all of it!! Sounds like you don’t know your own Catholic doctrine!! If you’re going to be on a forum to argue about how the Catholic church is truth then you should be better informed about your religious doctrine!!
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34
5When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.a 6But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” Acts 18:5-6
I have said my peace, may God bring you to truth through his word..
I’m praying for you mate…:)
@ ILoveJesus.
I was also brought up Catholic. I left the Church (probably for the same reasons as you), and joined the protestants. But when (with an open heart) I prayed for truth, Jesus brought me BACK to His Church. Now its your turn.
I admire your zeal for Christ. That’s what lead me back home. Peace.
New Living Translation (©2007)
1 Corinthians 4:16
And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ
John 2:1-11
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
2 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
Now if this is not God performimg his first mirracle due to intercession by His Blessed Mother on behalf of the bride and groome then I don’t know what is.
You protestants ask eachother for “prayers”, WHY? is’nt Jesus enough according to your sola scriptura? If Jesus is “the only mediator” then why do you ask “intercessory prayers” from your protestant laity and not the Mother of God when clearly we see our Loud doing so in scripture?
In reply to ILoveJesus
You stated that Catholics worship Mary. That is simply not true. That is a protestant lie. We WORSHIP Jesus. We HONOR Mary. I will prove it to you. To do so, lets take a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Shall we?
Paragraph 971 states that the Church rightly HONORS the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. It goes on to say that this special devotion differs from ADORATION which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit. In other words… to God alone.
Now that is taken directly from the Catechism. That is what Jesus’ Church ACTUALLY teaches, not the man-made lie that you have been sold.
SOUNDS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WERE TOLD THE CHURCH TEACHES, HUH?
I realize that is not in the Bible, but neither is “sola scriptura”, and you accept that. Therefore, I hope that you will at least consider it. After all, the CHURCH is the pillar of all truth, and the CHURCH gave us the Bible. So, how is it that you can accept the Bible (given to us by the Church), but you can’t accept Church tradition? That makes no sense. How can you pick and choose like that? Sounds a little prideful to me.
Bro/sis, you really should start to honor your Blessed Mother. To me, its a no-brainer. Not only is it just plain common sense (to respect someone’s mother), but She is also a powerful intercessor. Jesus is the sole mediator, but Mary is an advocate for US, to Her Son. She loves the human race. She is constantly reaching out to us. Her many apparitions, and pleas for us to follow Her Son are proof of this. And you won’t even honor Her, the “woman” (Gen3:15, Rev12:1) who loves you so much??? Do you know how many people have come to Jesus through Mary?
Please stop offending the Mother of God. It sends chills down my spine. If that is what your so-called “church” is teaching you, than you need to leave immediately.
I am a poor sinner, and I am ashamed to say what I would possibly do if someone offended my mother like that; if she lovingly reached out to someone, and than was taken advantage of and thrown out like the trash. I can only imagine how our Lord feels.
Sorry if my tone sounds harsh, but I really want to get these points across to you. It is said out of love. These are VERY serious matters. Thank you, and peace be with you.
@ ILoveJesus
Since you’ve incorrectly told us that we worship Mary, why don’t you now also talk to us about how we Catholics (Jesus’ Church) supposedly worship statues? I’m sure you’ve been told that lie as well.
To support your argument, feel free to cite any verse you’d like from that Catholic book known as the Bible. Perhaps we can start with Exodus 20:4-5, or any of the other protestant talking points you can read off of your pretend “church’s” script.
I’m not worried because those verses are just more of the same. They are all played out, old news. They are desperate and futile attempts to disprove the truth of Christ. I too was once drawn in by their lure. After all, things of the devil are very appealing to human beings. Like you, I too was caught in the snare of protestantism. It was very appealing to me to be able to “church” shop, and choose what I thought Jesus REALLY wanted, or REALLY meant. But who the heck am I to have that type of prideful audacity, to know better than Jesus’ Church? I even left the Catholic Church, but thank Jesus I was saved. Jesus lead me back to His ONE (not 40,000) true Catholic and apostolic Church. There is only ONE truth, not 40,000 truths. Therefore, either the Catholic Church (with documented apostolic succession) is correct, or one of your 40,000 man-made sects is correct. Which is more likely?
We (your Christian brothers and sisters) can take it one lie at a time. We are here to help you get to the truth. But be warned, we are not intimidated by rapid-fire Bible verses. That’s something that protestants do to intimidate and sound learned. What we want to look at is the INTERPRETATION. We trust Jesus’ Church to interpret, not ourselves. After all, the Church is who gave us the Bible. We are simply humble servants of Christ who act at the will of His Church. We are commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature, but we do not have the audacity as to over-rule Jesus’ Church teachings. So…you can side with 2,000 years of Church teachings; or you can side with what some “pastor” came up with in Bible study the other night (I’m sure he had the Holy Spirit lol). I know who I’m siding with. How bout you?
The door is always open. You obviously love Jesus. Come back to His Church. She’s full of sinners and hypocrites, but She’s always got room for one more. Peace in Christ.
So which parts of the Hail Mary which are found in the Bible the Words of God or the words of the Angel and Mary??? For that matter what part of the conversation held between Christ and satan during the temptation in the desert are the Words of God and which are the words of satan??? Please stick to you subject and stop switching from “Adding to Gods Words” to “Not found in the Bible” as you convieniently done. Are you saying that ALL the Bible is the Word of God???
@ Anno Domine
I love it how the prots (God love them) like to cite Deut4:2 when Martin Luther is the one who TOOK SEVEN BOOKS OUT OF THE BIBLE! lol.
This really does get exausting sometimes. Its the same thing over and over, but it is our duty. Peace
This one in particular (ILoveJesus) I’ve found very amusing. Using phrases like I’m “baiting and switching” playing the victim but notice that when asked “which are the actual words of God in the Biblical parts of the Hail Mary I get no answer and then they get all ruffled up and go on about it NOT being in the Bible in their following post. I’m still waiting for an answer from ILoveJesus but Christmas is coming too and I bet this person celebrates that. But wait. Where is celebrating Christmas found in the Bible or Easter for that matter. See, we can do all of those things because we have no problem with tradition and another thing, did you notice how ILoveJesus offered intercessory prayers for me??? Whats up with that.. Still waiting for a response from ILoveJesus to the above question, (Are the Biblical parts of the Hail Mary Gods the Words or the Angels and Elizabeths??) Striaght forward question, no baiting I promise.
@ Anno Domine.
Here’s the situation with someone like ILoveJesus who left the Church. I can relate to his situation. Most cradle Catholics (like myself until I left and came back) are taught the following watered down theology:
You must follow Jesus. Jesus is your savior who died for your sins. Go to Mass every Sunday. Pay attention to the readings. Be respectful and reverent in Jesus’ Church. You don’t necesarily learn to be a great theologian, unless you choose to do so. You must give to charity and ALWAYS help those in need. When you help the least of your brethren, you are honoring Jesus. The Church’s main concern is to bring people to Christ, and save souls. At the final judgement, I doubt Jesus cares how many Bible verses you know. You don’t need to be a great theologian to be saved.
That is how it usually goes down. Than all of a sudden a Catholic meets a fire breathing protestant who spews off these Bible verses condemning the Catholic Church. The prot (not the Lord) declares that he is saved because he has a relationship with Jesus (as if Catholics don’t lol). All of a sudden the Catholic is drawn to the prot because it is human nature to be drawn to things of this world. Since the Catholic Church is not of this world, the person strays. This is due to his sinful nature/concupiscence/depraved individual Calvinist (whatever you want to call it).
The above is the stage that ILoveJesus is now at. The Lord, through His providence, has allowed him to stray. I once strayed, as well, but I was called back. I hope ILoveJesus enjoys his time with the prots (I got a lot out of mine), but I have a feeling he’ll be back. He seems to be a sincere Christian, not just arguing out of pride. I believe Jesus will bring him back. He (like myself) had it ALL, and didn’t even know it. I truly was a member of JESUS’ one true Church, and I CHOSE to leave. What a mis-guided fool I was.
Than I got into the theology, and realized that the CHURCH truly is the pillar of all truth and our inheritance from Jesus; not some “have-it-your-way, made to order” Bible study at a make believe “church”, that has absolutely no authority whatsoever. The Bible is twisted in whatever way that may strike one’s fancy. Private revelation is in abundance, and these revelations spread like wild fire. That’s not Jesus’ Church at all. That’s human pride. The audacity is mind boggling.
Sorry to all for the above tone, but there really is no other way to put it. Peace.
Thanks Bud,
Now that’s the Catholic spirit that I love. I can get very passionate about defending The Church and sometimes it’s nice to hear that calming tone you offered. So thank you and If I’ve offended ILoveJesus then hope they can forgive me zeal however I’d still like an answer to their accusation and God willing the truth be known. Thanks again and may God love and keep you.
You know what is sad about the Catholics on this forum! You’re not hear to bring people to God, you’re here to argue about how your religion is right!! I’m sure you’re not honoring God this way!! This is why I stopped answering to your comments!!! I don’t want to put myself in your position!! I’m here to seek for God not for religion!! I want to make a difference in someone’s life!! Now you can have a great time making fun of me and putting me down as I’ve seen you’ve been doing!! I’m sure God will be proud of you!!
As I can see, no one is putting you down, and I am truly sorry if you feel that way. I am especially sorry if I made you feel that way. I am not here just for the sake of arguing. I’m sorry if I came across that way, but this is an apologetics debate forum. Sometimes sarcasm, humor, and tough questions are used to get points across. I thought that was understood, and we were all friends.
As a Christian, the LAST thing I want to do is to lose someone. But, I do stand by my arguments. It is my duty to be truthful. Please take another look at what I said, and understand that it is nothing against you personally. Unfortunately there is sometimes no delicate way to skirt around these issues. They must be dealt with directly. I’ll add, that, on the internet, the level of hatred dished out by protestants toward the Catholic Church is un-rivaled. There truly is a hate driven message there.
As for this forum, I’m sure that none of us would try to evangelize in this type of tone, but we are not evangelizing here. This is simply a civilized debate among already-established Christians. No ones’ feelings should be getting hurt. I apologize if I’ve hurt you in any way. I was only trying to change your mind. That’s all. Peace in Christ.
@ILoveJesus
Now that you have attacked me personally by accusing me of acting un-Christian, can you please show me where I attacked you personally? I was just talking theology. That’s all.
What makes what I’m doing on here, any different than what you are doing?
I have apologized if I offended you and I meant it, but I have re-read my comments. I really can’t see where I attacked you personally.
WHAT IS YOUR REAL MOTIVE HERE? Catholics aren’t good Christians perhaps? Is that what you are trying to suggest? Is that what you are trying to suggest about members of the largest charitable organization on the planet? So who is the one arguing for the sake of arguing? Who is attacking?
If you have run out of arguments, don’t use reverse psychology and attack someone for attacking you personally, when in fact that is what YOU are actually doing. You are just going in the back door, and being sneaky about it. Nice try.
Please show me where I attacked you as a person, and not your theology, and I will once again apologize.
Now… I have nothing against you personally. Having a theological debate is NOT acting in an un-Christian manner. We are talking theology to fellow Christians here. We are not evangelizing, as this type of talk might turn people off.
I’m happy to discuss theology, but if you are going to attack me for making well founded respectful arguments, we cannot continue the discussion.
That does not mean that I do not love you as a fellow Christian, or that I have any ill will against you.
But, YOU are the one who just resorted to a personal attack; not me. You were just being sneaky about it; and to a degree, I even took the bait by apologizing. Its not a big deal, and of course I forgive you. God bless you.
Stop that right now.
You will not use emotional blackmail on this forum. I’ve read what you’ve been up to here and it’s far from as you say “brining people to God” You’ve done nothing but do exactly what you’re accusing people of doing to you. Only you came here and picked a fight and when I see that you’re asked simple questions you back out and use words like baiting and switching when it’s you who are jumping from subject to subject. I’ve seen people appologise to you unnecessarily. If you can’t handle a well directed debate without substituting answers for emotional blackmail then maybe coming to such forum is not for you.
The inference made by ILoveJesus was that Catholics are not interested in “bringing people to Christ,” but only in arguing. That is what I took issue with, especially since the Holy Catholic Church is the one that is always under attack, and quite viciously. She is mostly on the DEFENSIVE, not the offensive.
For the record, my main interest is ALSO bringing souls to Christ. Whether a person joins the Catholic Church or a protestant denomination is not important at the time of conversion. The importance of bringing a soul to Christ supercedes theological issues. If a person goes from being an atheist to a protestant, PRAISE JESUS, that’s fine with me. We can debate theology later. That’s what we’re doing here.
Since we are forbidden to boast about any of our works, it is useless to debate about who is the “better” Christian. Therefore, for Biblical reasons, I refuse to do it. I’m sure that you all feel the same way.
We should get back to theology. That’s what this site seems to be about.
For the record, I have stated several times that I admire ILoveJesus’ zeal for Christ. I just wanted to point out his/her cunning tactic of painting himself/herself as a victim of nasty Catholics, acting un-Christian, when HE/SHE is the one who made the personal attack. I’m glad that I’m not the only person who saw it. It was a very subtle and clever distraction technique.
Now, I think the point has been made, and I don’t want to gang up on that person, because that WOULD be un-Christian.
If we could get back to theology (with the understanding that this is a debate and respectful barbs are thrown and its NOT personal), I think we can all have a good chat and part as friends. That’s all I’m looking to do.
I admire ILoveJesus for participating and hanging in there on a Catholic site where he’she is out-numbered. NOW YOU KNOW HOW CATHOLICS FEEL. lol.
ILoveJesus, keep your love for Christ, and maybe we’ll see you back in the pews one day. I pray that we will. You are ALWAYS welcome. Peace in Christ.
Go on with your attacks!!! I will pray for all of you, may God bless you… Checking out of this forum, do not wish to be attacked any further…
@ ILoveJesus
Thanks for the prayers. I will pray for you too.
Sure, get the last word in and leave. This prooves nothing but a sly way of avoid the tough questions. I too thank you for your intercessory prayers and will offer mine for you from the bottom of my heart but I urge you to come back and join us at this forum, you’re always welcome here.
God bless and keep you.
The prots accept the Bible that came from the Church, yet they don’t accept Church tradition. Can someone please explain that to me? I’m just not getting it.
I’m not sure they understand it either but you’re wrong on them accepting the Bible. Remember how much they tore out of it. And as far as tradition is concerned, they pick and choose from that too like Christmas and Easter, they love those but hate the rest..
My statement to all prots:
We Shall Fight Them….
The Holy Catholic Church and all the men and women who serve Christ in it, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their Holy Faith, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large populations from many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Protestant and all the odious apparatus of heretic rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight on all continents, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend Our Lord’s Church, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; WE SHALL NEVER SURENDER, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Church or a large part of her were subjugated and starving, then our brothers and sisters beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the Power of the Holy Spirit, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, Our Lord and Savior, with all His power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the peoples of His One true Church. Amen
Modified from Churchill’s speech
They never think about where we got the Bible. I wonder if Protestant seminaries tell their charges not to go there. It is interesting how effective non teaching can be. We have seen it in the Catholic Church where many Liberal pastors just avoid many doctrines they don’t like. And the faithful are clueless on Contraception and homosexuality.
I think your accusation of the Church adding to this one is unfortunatly not very well thought out. Let take for example the bits from the Hail Mary that in the Bible? I think what that other chap was trying to say is that those parts of the Hail Mary are’nt the Words of God but the words of the Angel and Elizabeth. Such is true with the bit where Christ converses with satan in the desert. You can’t possibly say that both sides of that conversation are from God can you. Therefore I request your sincere response.
The first commandment is; thou shalt not have any other Gods before me…The second; Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visitng the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.Exodus 20…(and) The only way to the father is through his son Jesus. read John 17 to see Jesus wants us to be one with him so if he only prays to the father why should we do different, if Jesus is the one your trying to please…the father says to go through his son therefor we pray to Jesus and the Glory be his..
Jes,
You appear to be misinformed about the beliefs of the ancient Apostolic churches – that would be the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. I would like to clarify a few points.
Firstly, we never worship saints. Worship is reserved for the Uncreated. Saints are created, so they can’t be worshipped. The Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches strictly forbid the worship of saints or holy objects.
There is a difference between veneration and worship. Protestants don’t seem to understand this difference because most Protestants don’t have experience with worshipping God. They venerate God and think it is worship. Therefore, when they see Orthodox and Roman Catholic christians venerate the saints or holy objects, they are offended. They confuse veneration with worship.
When a soldier salutes his country’s flag, is he worshipping his country? No, he is showing respect and devotion to his country by making a gesture of respect to the symbol of his country. This is veneration. When my parents were alive, I would hold the door for them when we entered a building or stand up when they came to the table. Was I worshipping them? No, I was showing respect and devotion to my parents. This is veneration.
When we venerate saints, we show respect, love, and devotion for those who have lived holy lives and who have ran their race and are now, according to Scripture, interceding for us sinners befor the throne of God. The saints have done this not by their own power or holiness, but through the Holy Spirit. We never worship them.
Forgive my frankness, I say this out of charity, but if you can’t understand the difference between showing veneration and worship, the problem isn’t with the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. It is with you. Don’t tell us what we believe and practice. We know the difference between veneration and worship.
Secondly, God has indeeded commanded us in the Bible not to have idols. However, the same God then instructed the Jews to place holy images in their temple, images of cherubims and rams. Does this make sense? Would the same God who condemned any kind of graven image then turn around and command them to be made in his holy house?
Don’t take Scripture out of context, or in such a fundamentalist way that you twist its meaning. The Scripture that you quoted is referring to the construction of idols that are worshipped in the place of God. In so doing, one attributes divine qualities to the material. This is idolatry, and it is condemned by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.
This is one of the problems of Sola Scripture – reading Scripture in such an extremely literalist way that it actually loses the original meaning because it twists the context out of proportion. This is the problem with proof texts and treating the Bible in the same way you would an encyclopedia.
Holy images, such as icons, are never worshipped in the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Churches. They are not attributed divine powers or god-like attributes, and never prayed to.
As an Orthodox christian, my prayers and devotions are directed to that depicted in the icon – never to the wood and paint itself. One may argue that material objects should never be used in worship. This is Gnostic heresy. Protestants see Orthodox kissing an icon, and they make too big a deal of it. When I was in the military, stationed overseas, I carried a photograph of my finace with me. I would often take it out and look at it, and I would often kiss it. Was I worshipping my fiance? That is nonsense. I was showing love for that one depicted in the image. That is all there is to our veneration of icons. The veneration is not to the wood and paint, but to that which is depicted in the image.
Pretty simple stuff if you think about it instead of constantly telling other people what their beliefs are and why they’re wrong.
Thirdly, as an Orthodox christian, I absolutely believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. He alone is our Redeemer and Savior, and our only hope. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. My church teaches this, as does the Roman Catholic Church. Any claim to the contrary is just not true.
However, what I completely reject, is this overly individualistic, Western (largely American) notion of “just me and God”. It is not about just you and God. The Church is one community, one family. We humble ourselves as individuals, realize that we are part of something bigger than our individual self, and show love, respect, and devotion to those members of that family who have departed this world and now pray for us in Heaven.
While Christ is our Saviour, God uses human beings in His plan for our salvation. Consider the Virgin Mary. No other human being has played such a central role in mankind’s salvation as the Mother of our Lord. She was chosen from all women who have ever lived or ever will live to bear God in human flesh. She did this willingly. The Incarnation happened because of her obedience and faith. It doesn’t mean that she is our savior, but we still honor her for her role in our salvation and for the fact that no other human being has ever been as close to God – literally (just think about it for a while).
God uses people in his plan. We show respect, love, and devotion to those individuals. We ask them to pray to God for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and we believe that they are still very much alive and that they are praying for us in Heaven. This is the tradition passed down to us from the Apostles, preserved by the only Church founded by Jesus Christ, and is in no way forbidden or condemned in a single passage of Holy Scripture.
I think that there is a greater danger of the fundamentalists violating the First Commandment with bibliolatry than anything else.
Interesting, you know God says he has magnigfied His Word above His Name?? Your words and actions make up who you are not your name. So how could a person put a person’s word before them?
pls forward this to the above – my husband!! – thank you
Sorry I don’t feel comfortable doing that.
I wrote a blog post in defense of the Catholic tradition of praying to saints here: http://makeafriar.com/2012/01/15/the-saints-what-are-they-good-for/
Wow, this is so eye opening. Even I, a Catholic have benefitted so much from readng this. BFHU, thank you for being so informed about Catholicism. I am going to make sure I print this out (I hope its ok) so that I can answer those that have been questioning my faith. I feel very confident now.
Thank you.
Dear Judith,
Thanks so much for the encouragement. Have a Blessed Ash Wednesday.
Dear bfhu,
Thanks for your courage and a question to all Catolics out there: Have you guys been to realcatholictv.com ? If not, I encourage you and all you protestant mates to go check it out.
God Bless you all
Thank you so much for your replies to WOW. I am a cradle-Catholic and find much of what your stated as something to use with my own family members who have strayed from The Church which was established by our savior, Jesus Christ. I could “hear” the compassion in your statements and the frustration and anger in WOW’s. I will pray to His blessed mother, the Virgin Mary, that she asks her Son to help Mr, Wow see and believe the Truth. May God bless you both.
What about the seven churches in Asia which were independent although they communicated with each other. They had different characteristics. So am I right in saying Rome was not in charge for
more than 300 years.
As a catholic with a small ‘c’ I am dismayed at the 2 minute homilies
and lack of scripture exegesis in Scotland. This is why so many catholics fall away. I deeply regret that church became for me a one hour habit on Sundays. The priests are fearful of giving a kind of hellfire sermon in case they upset anyone – this is also true of many protestant churches these days.
If only I had found churches like the New York Times Square Church
at the start of my conversion how different my walk would have been.
Worth a google for the NYTSC especially for the live sermon on Sundays . These sermons are good for any Christian.
At communion they do say ‘this is my body……..
So should Rome be in charge especially since they tried through many
centuries to suppress and hide the Word of the Lord.
Have a google at Savanarola the catholic priest who influenced Martin
Luther. He wanted to clean up the catholic church from the inside and they burned him.
Charles,
I am not going to defend the many insipid homilies delivered at mass. What a missed opportunity. The Catholic Church has been under severe attack by her enemies since Pentecost but especially so for the last 50+ years. They have had a certain amount of success. But are we to leave our wounded mother? Jesus promised to be with us to the end of time and that the gates of Hell would not overcome her. So we can rest assured on His promise, no matter what it looks like now.
Rome is not now, nor has she ever been an iron fisted ruler of the Church. The Bishop of Rome is the highest authority, but with all of the bishops of the Church. But the Catholic Church in each locality is somewhat autonomous within certain limits.
Many Protestant Churches have excellent sermons but even the best sermon cannot replace Eucharistic Communion in the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus when He joins his very soul to ours and becomes present in our bodies.
The Catholic Church has never suppressed the Word of the Lord. This is a Protestant lie. And Martin Luther had legitimate complaints about the Catholic Church in Germany. But what he complained about was not actual Catholic teaching but abuses by local people. Big difference. Luther died of natural causes. I think you have been told another lie by your Protestant friends. Sorry.
Martin Luther he himself regretted started the revolution and nothing can be done after being excommunicated. So he had to continue what he had done and followed his own invented doctrines. In his personal diary & book of prayers, he praised Mary a lot! He even praised Mary as more than Eve! He believed in the Immaculate conception, Perpetual Virginity & Assumption of Mary! Dont believe me? Read his diary and book of prayers yourself. He as the ‘father’ of Protestantism, even honored Mary, what makes less of the rest to honor her?
Correction: One can repent and confess and the excommunication will be lifted. This is the very aim and desired outcome of excommunication.
I see. Thank you for clearing my ignorance on that!
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
That division was one of believers and non believers from Luke.
John 15:9-17 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Christ also calls us to love even our enemies, how much more then should we love our fellow Christians? How could hate between christians and division between christians be anything but detestable to God?
My point exactly!! Non believers!!
Amen to that! But be reminded that this blog is meant to sort out miscoceptions of te Catholic church, not to fight and spew vulgarities or names at one another. I believe that’s his main point on posting this.
Prayers to the dead are forbidden in the Bible but what about prayers FOR the dead – do you think that Onesimus was dead when Paul prayed for him – this may have been discussed already but I dont have
time to look through all posts.
Catholics use the praying for the dead soldiers, who had Pagan amulets, by Judas in the book of Macabees – to support the teaching of praying for the dead. Though it’s considered deuterocanonical by the Protestants, one still cannot deny its existence. The praying to the dead, which is forbidden, is actually referred to the use of witchcraft to communicate with the dead in The book of Samuel (if I’m not wrong).
Just to add to your good points… the issue (and what is forbiden), is turning a dead person into a type of DEITY. That is reserved for God alone (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). This is why Catholics are forbidden to worship the Blessed Mother (although we LOVE Her and respect Her as the Mother of our Lord and Savior). However, if you recognize a dead person as a member of the communion of saints, a member of God’s Church in Heaven, which is in communion with God’s Church on Earth, that’s OK. The living and the dead are all one Church. We are all one voice (the Church on Earth and the Church in Heaven), speaking in ONE voice to glorify ONE God. That is our sole mission as human beings. This was all perfectly understood until Martin Luther threw a temper tantrum, when he was told that he was wrong. Than, he made up doctrine to suit his fancy, and today we have a man-made “church” on every corner, and every one claims to have the Holy Spirit. But, in those “churches” where is the succession back to Jesus? Only one true holy and apostolic Church can trace an UNBROKEN lineage back to Christ. We all know which Church that is… the ONLY Church that is not a “denomination”. That is Jesus’ universal (Catholic) Church. Fellow Christians (protestant brothers and sisters in Christ), this is not said out of pride (I hope it doesn’t sound that way). It is simply the truth. Peace.
The Bible is not the end of the word of God. The fact that protestants all believe that if its in the Bible its true and if its not its not true is a catholic misconception. Just like there are many misconceptions about catholics from protestants there are many the other way around as well. The Bible is the word of God. Not the only words of God. You should use the Bible as a comparison. If someone says something is true but conflicts with the word of God, there is probably a problem there. That being said when it comes to catholic dogma or any other religious dogma, just because the church leaders say something is true does not mean it is. Does it conflict with the word of God? Is it supported by the word of God (the Bible)? Just because its not in the Bible doesnt mean it is or is not true. But all of us should question why we believe something that we were taught that is not supported by scripture. It could be true, but how do you know it is? Because the church leaders declaired its true? So if I become a church leader I can make up whatever I want? The trinity is not in the Bible but the Bible supports the theory behind the holy trinity. So what supports some of the different church doctrines that are not supported in the Bible and are not in the Bible? What are you as a member of the church using to question the validity of what the church tells you? Do you believe it just because the church says so? If so do you believe the church is incapable of error? If you take concepts like purgatory that is not biblical and teach them as truth, what are you using to base that it is truth? Im not arguing this, Im asking. I want to know. How do you know purgatory exists? If it is a theory thats fine but it should be taught as theory and not fact. If it is fact, how do you know its true. To say my faith would imply that anyone who disagreed with it did not have faith. A very judgemental and self rightous stance. So when your church has certain beliefs and someone asks you where it says that in the Bible look at it as them asking how are you supporting that belief and where did that belief originate. Looking at it that way make take some of the judgement and hositity out of the question and answer and allow christians to dialogue and learn from one another instead of insulting one another or talking down to one another.
What sense does it make to ask the dead to pray for us. The dead lie in graves, and do not hear our prayers for they know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Not only is the state of the dead clearly described in the Bible (though I cannot speak for the books that the Catholics erroneously added), but nowhere in God’s Holy Word are we given the example of asking deceased persons to intercede for us in prayer nor action. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible in pursuit of its own pagan practices.
Dear Liam,
You are mistaken. Even though our bodies die our soul is immortal. Bodies may be in graves but souls are alive, in Heaven or Hell. As Jesus said:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”
Luke 20:38 Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”
Matthew 22:32‘ I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
We are not confined to only what can be found in Scripture. Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men invented by Martin Luther. We have not abandoned the Bible at all since we listen to the whole thing every three years at Sunday mass. We are not pagan because we belong to the Church founded by Jesus on Peter and the apostles.
Hello Liam,
Could you please explain to us which books the Catholic Church added to the Bible? Peace in Christ.
Dear njt,
Do not be misled, the Catholics did not add books to the bible, it was Luther who left books out. The Catholic Church canonized the New Testament at the end of the fourth century, is that what you mean?
LOL. Thanks. I know that. It was a trick question. You are 100% correct. Martin Luther DID take books out of the Bible (a Catholic Book) because they did not agree with his man-made theology. Its funny how the prots pick and chose which parts of the Word of God they want to accept. They’ll accept the Bible (whichever parts they like), but they won’t accept Jesus’ Church teachings and traditions. They make it up as they see fit, under the auspices of being led by the Holy Spirit. But, is it the Holy Spirit who is actually leading them into dividing Christians, and making them leave Jesus’ one true Church? Or could it be the devil? The enemy is very cunning. Peace in Christ to you.
To all who does not believe in truth, do not be blind. Read the Scriptures. For it is God’s breath, pure, alive and active. This is the only last authority we can have it here on earth. Do not believe in anything in this world, if it’s not written in God’s word.
As Romans 10:17 says.. “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
2 Timothy 3:14-17 “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Open your spiritual eyes, mind and soul.. Let the power of the Holy Spirit manifest in your life.. Repent! ask wisdom from God, and He will sustain you, You all hungry and thirsty will be filled. May God bless you all. Remember.. God is love, He is full of grace and mercy, Let Him come into you.. Received Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord and you will see great things will happen in your life. The old has gone, The new has come.
Dear Child,
Why did you say this?
Where did you get it? It is not found anywhere in God’s word. Therefore, you should not believe it. That is why I don’t believe it.
“Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” John
I agree with this scripture of course. But its sort of out of the blue. Could you explain your reason?
This discussion is uselless. I am a Bible believing christian, I do not live on traditions and bow down to idols which are totally borbidden by God. Praying for the souls of the departed is a joke since their ability to accept and live for Christ ended when they took their last breath. Even the Pope now agrees that Mary had other children after years of the Catholci church teaching us that s he had no other children and died a virgin. My dear catholic friend I knwo you mean well and I know God is watching over you but do not try to defame the prtoestant church God said judge not so you will not be judged. Therefore I pray to God thorugh JJesus my mediator and turst the Holsy Spirit to guide me in all truths. The details and ideals of others I leave in His ample mighty and powerful hands.
Dear Jean,
You have been taught many things about the Catholic Church that are half-truths or outright lies. Please let me address your concerns one by one.
TRADITION: When the Catholic Church speaks about Tradition we do not mean man-made traditions, like Christmas trees, and Turkey dinner for Thanksgiving. The word tradition simply means something that is passed down. But the Catholic meaning of Sacred Tradition (with a capital “T”) refers to the first century oral teaching of, none other than, the Apostles of Jesus Christ. We adhere to St. Paul who said:
2 Thess. 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Sola Scriptura was unknown until Martin Luther made it up.
BOWING DOWN TO IDOLS: The worship of idols is forbidden to Catholics. The assertion that Catholics worship idols is an outright lie. Please see my post—>Another Protestant Tradition: Catholics worship Idols.
PRAYING FOR THE DEAD:
You are correct once a person is dead their eternal fate is sealed. We do not pray for them as if we can pray for their salvation. We cannot do that.
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF MARY: The pope has not declared that Mary had other children. She did not. And we still believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Let me just say that I do not judge the Protestant Churches. My goal here is to point out Protestant errors and false teaching about the Catholic Church. My father died a Protestant and my mother is still a Protestant and so are some of my children. I love Protestants. They are literally a part of my family and I love them. But, as a Protestant I trusted my teachers when they taught me what the Catholic Church taught and believed. I was shocked to find out I had been taught distortions and lies. But, my teachers did not make up the lies, they in turn trusted their teachers. These anti-Catholic teachings are a part of Protestant tradition passed down from Luther and Calvin.
Believer
To say that the bible was not known for 100 – 300 yrs after Jesus is nonsense – Luke wrote his gospel to theophilus just after Jesus was crucified – the gospels and letters were written when the writers were ALIVE . The word Bible does not determine the date the scriptures were written.
All the new testament was circulated at the times the gospels and epistles were written – and read out in the churches immediately and copied. All paul and peters letters were circulated when they were written to the living churches – not 300 years later
The Bible is the word which the NT speaks of and Christians knew what was inspired from day one.
Do you honestly think that there will be millions of people in heaven telling the saints like paul peter etc that they got there without bible study which even Jesus needed to fend off the devil with the sword of the spirit – the Bible – the Word. Without scripture we have no weapons against the devil. Man cannot have eternal life by bread alone but by EVERY word ( the WHOLE of scripture – the Bible) which cometh from the mouth of God.
Has anyone written a letter to a church telling them to read it 300 years later – absurd , yes ?
You wrote:
“Man cannot have eternal life by bread alone but by EVERY word ( the WHOLE of scripture – the Bible) which cometh from the mouth of God.”
Once again, every Christian will agee with you, however the problem is how do we interpret it and must we interpret it as intended by the inspired writers. How do we know that these writers even had an intention after all. No Christian can possibly approach Scripture without a host of predetermined data points that inform his or her interpretation. There can be no “Scripture alone,” because our interpretive lens will be inherently defined by the sermons we’ve heard, books we’ve read, or theological concepts we’ve been taught. The Reformed Christian, in essence, believes in Scripture plus whatever interpretations he inherits from Calvin plus Warfield plus Bavinck plus whomever has informed his interpretive paradigm. The same can be said for the Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, and even Catholic. However, only the Catholic’s interpretive paradigm allows him to reply to such a charge by saying “yes, exactly, that IS how I interpret Scripture; how could I do any other?”
“How do we know that these writers even had an intention after all. ”
I dont know what you mean by this – Peter and Paul etc and the gospel writers were told what to write by the Holy Spirit. This catholic site and others use sola scripture to debate with protestants – eg they use scripture to debate the reality of the body and blood in the Eucharist. So in any debate both sides must interpret sola scripture.
All the teachings of man such as sermons etc must be held up to the light of scripture as the bereans did.
You wrote:
“I don’t know what you mean by this”
I mean the authors of these scriptures did not have the intention that their writings ever would become a part of the Bible. It was the Catholic Church that selected and canonized these writings more than 300 years later after they were written, as we know the collection of books called NT. From the very beginning the Catholic Church believes She is preserver and authorative interpreter of these writings. The same applies more or less to the Old Testament, oral traditions became Scripture, it was on behalf of the Catholic Church that the Gentiles accepted it as inspired writing.
“So in any debate both sides must interpret sola scripture. All the teachings of man such as sermons etc. must be held up to the light of scripture as the Bereans did.”
By what authority, the assumption that individuals or groups have the interpretive authority to determine for themselves from Scripture how best to worship Christ and form Christian communities. Whether one is determining what is most spiritually beneficial or what Scripture teaches, if one is treating oneself as Scripture’s highest interpretive authority one is implicitly taking to oneself more authority than any semblance of Church hierarchy. Because not believing in a hierarchical Church founded by Christ makes everyone an authority unto him or herself. Yet if following Christ means following Him not according to our own whims or personal interpretations but via the authorities and shepherds He has established, it is spiritually dangerous to establish religious markers based on personal preferences or private interpretations, lest we become like Cain or Korah, two Old Testament personalities known for prioritizing their own preferences in their worship. Choosing to leave a religious faith or join another based on what we want is in that way a subtle form of idolatry, insofar as one creates ‘church’ in one’s own image, according to one’s own judgment of what one needs spiritually and how best to worship God.
BTW, we are off-topic. We need another thread.
I would refute that the authors of these scriptures would not know that they would be included in the bible – the NT was decided before the world began – not by man but by God. Are you not just confusing the word bible with the word scripture or THE WORD. Interpreting scripture by groups of ecclesia and individuals must have worked for 300 years – a long time – until the word bible was used for collecting them into one book. But christians would have used bits and pieces of scripture for 300 years as well – they may not all have had a complete bible but would have swapped these scriptures about.
So we had bishops and ministers for 300 years in different churches and areas interpreting the bible without the roman bishop being in total charge of interpretation.
praying to mary and the aposles or the dead saints, yes u r worshipping them, and making them an idol.thinking they have the power to answer your prayers. jesus said dont pray for dead whether died with christ. both of these pple are wrong. to know the truth read the bible. not the cathol8c bible that contains false sayings n doctrine s theres a reason why the people took the apocryphal books cause it contradicts jesus words n God.any true christian who has real fellowship with God wil tell the between the lie n truth. catholics r not rite and orthodox people r not rite who pray to the other is divination. and praying to mary and doing the rosary prayer is the same thing like praying to the saints what orthodox people do its the same thing.yes have respect for a
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Matthew 23:10 Nor are you to be called ‘Teachers,’ because you have only one teacher, the Messiah! Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 “The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun [in this life]. … For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”
You are talking about the dead….the flesh..BODY).if they are in Christ these dead have spiritually gone on to live with Christ when they died and their bodies will be resurrected later….but spirit is living with Christ….Jesus(Yeshua) told thief on cross he would be in paradise with him……God does not lie….. this is taking about on earth….look under the sun….there is no sun in heaven….check out what Bible says about heaven….. you are taking the verses out of contextual content for the meaning…you are using.. not the righteous in Christ….they will live for eternal…For the gift of salvation is eternal LIFE with Christ…..The Soul lives on….in heaven… body is resurrected at the last Trump….check it out in Bible……….
Shalom
Dear Juliet,
I hope you will thoughtfully reread the original post above. And thank you for letting us know you interpretation of the above passages you mentioned. However, we interpret those passages differently than you do. If you would like to hear how we interpret scripture in regards to the issue of calling our priests “Father” I hope you will take a look at this post —>Does the Scripture: “call no man father” Contradict the Catholic Church?
If we can ask Saints in heaven to pray for us then why didn’t Jesus do it when He was here or why didn’t Paul do it?
It is possible that Paul prayed FOR the dead (not To the dead).
Onesimus might have been dead when Paul makes his prayer to God for him. Worth a study.
Jesus is God. His Father is God.Jesus did not need to ask for the intercession of Saints but then again we do not know everything Jesus did anyway.
Asking for the intercession of the Saints is not forbidden in Scripture. But we are told to pray for one another. So why would that end just because the Saint is alive in Heaven? Jesus didn’t ask His Father to forgive His sins either, b/c He didn’t need to. Jesus didn’t get married either. Nor was He ordained to the priesthood.
Saint John the Apostle’s Book of Revelation makes it clear that the souls of the dead are laid to rest under the Altar in Heaven, not to be awoken until the final Tribulation/2nd Coming of Christ Jesus. At such time the final Seal on the Scroll of Life will be broken and the souls will be set free to reclaim their bodies on Earth while dressed in garments of white.
Revelation also states that Angles, not Saints, are receiving our prayers to God as incense, rising into Heaven. This makes sense as the Bible indicates our Saints are at rest beneath the Altar in Heaven. This also falls in line with the general thought that we have guardian angles as our protectors who witness our prayer activity. That’s not to say that Gabriel or Micheal are specifically omnipresent to each and every one of God’s children, as omnipresence is reserved to God alone.
Additionally, scripture lawfully commands that we address our prayers to Christ Jesus, which affirms our Trinitarian faith, in Christ Jesus as both true man and true God of the Covenant Promise.
Lutherans have a high regard for both Mary and the apostolic Saints before us. Confessional Lutheran clergy to this day still study apostolic teachings passed down by our Saints. “All Saints” is still a popular congregational name for Lutherans, in reference to “All Saints Day” on our liturgical calendar. On “All Saints Day” especially, Lutheran congregations pray extensively to God, thanking God for the gifted Saints sent, who have continued to lead us through their inspirational writings, by way of the Holy Spirit, passed down over the centuries.
In Lutheran theology and liturgy, I haven’t personally encountered any animosity against our Saints, as BFHU has indicated against Doctor Martin Luther, above in the last yellow quotation. Lutheranism doesn’t have a position against the ability of Saints on either Earth or in Heaven, supposedly being incapable of prayer for one another. Rather, we’d anticipate that in the purity of Heaven, prayer would actually be more abundant towards one another. Can we have confidence in the Saints and Angles to abundantly pray for the Kingdom of God and his Church, yes. This doesn’t however mean that these Heavenly Saints are intermediating or interceding in the prayers of those on Earth.
The role of intermediating or interceding is exclusive to those called into ordination as clergy here on Earth; for the admittance and repentance of sins in confession and absolution, during the liturgical preparation of the Eucharist and partaking of the Lord’s Super, regenerating a clean Spirit within us.
Dear Daniel,
Questions….
Where in Revelation is it stated :
Where in Scripture does it “lawfully command that we address our prayers to Christ Jesus only”?
What did I say?
” as BFHU has indicated against Doctor Martin Luther, above in the last yellow quotation.”
Revelation 6:9-11 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow bondservants and their brothers and sisters should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
They seem to be very much awake since they are crying out in a loud voice; plus, this says nothing about the 2nd coming of Christ. Is this the best you can do?
Jesus in His second coming will avenge the blood of those slain throughout the ages as well as those slain for denying the antichrist in the tribulation.
“11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to REST a little longer,”
BFHU: “…, this says nothing about the 2nd coming of Christ.”
Actually, the Bible’s Seven Seals in Revelation are all about the return of Christ, but the Fifth Seal was more specific to the current topic. But, because you asked, I’ll post it below.
Revelation 8:1-5
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Seventh Seal and the Golden Censer
8 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings,[a] flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Psalm 51
English Standard Version (ESV)
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
51 Have mercy on me,[a] O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right[b] spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
19 then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.
Love this Psalm. And you quoted it here….because….?
It teaches us how to pray in a manner acceptable to God. This prayer is addressed directly to God.
Dear Daniel,
They may be resting under the altar in Heaven but they are not still dead. They are alive and able to cry out in loud voices. So they are not dead under the altar awaiting the second coming of Christ. We may address our prayers directly to God. Catholics pray directly to God, Jesus and/ or the Holy Spirit. Examples of prayer to God in Scripture does not equal a prohibition of asking the faithful in Heaven to pray for us. This method of interpreting Scripture is a Protestant Tradition but there just is no Scripture that prohibits asking for intercessory prayer from the faithful in Heaven.
I can give a new friend the easiest directions to my house. But by doing so, I do not forbid her from taking a shortcut she finds with her GPS.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
Abominable Practices
9 “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.
Protestant Tradition: Prayers to the Saints condemned
The verse from Deuteronomy is the verse used to support this Protestant Tradition:
But what Protestants fail to notice, because of their eagerness to condemn Catholic practices, is that the whole passage is talking about various practices of DIVINATION. Divination seeks occult knowledge from the dead. It seeks information and guidance. It is nothing like asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. But the Protestant Tradition blinds them to the context of the passage and the meaning of the actual words used in the Deuteronomy passage.
Necromancy is the word that translates the Hebrew and the definition for necromancy is:
Necromancy, in motive and goal, is NOTHING like requesting intercessory prayer.
Also please see–>Necromancy???
Isaiah 8:11-22
English Standard Version (ESV)
Fear God, Wait for the Lord
11 For the Lord spoke thus to me with his strong hand upon me, and warned me not to walk in the way of this people, saying: 12 “Do not call conspiracy all that this people calls conspiracy, and do not fear what they fear, nor be in dread. 13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many shall stumble on it. They shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.”
16 Bind up the testimony; seal the teaching[a] among my disciples. 17 I will wait for the Lord, who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob, and I will hope in him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. 19 And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. 21 They will pass through the land,[b] greatly distressed and hungry. And when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will speak contemptuously against[c] their king and their God, and turn their faces upward. 22 And they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish. And they will be thrust into thick darkness.
BFHU: “It is nothing like asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us.”
Perhaps, not in a literal sense, though we already know the Saints in Heaven are proactively praying for God’s people and plea on our behalf. It just seems unnecessarily redundant and I like the way God handles this issue, “should not a people inquire of their God?”
Of course, inquiring of God is good. But, we do NOT INQUIRE OF THE SAINTS! That would be Divination. We merely ask for the Saints to join their prayers to ours. That is a HUGE difference. Divination is forbidden while we are enjoined to pray for one another.
But how do you split asking the saints for a prayer for a specific need from “inquiring” of the saints.
Luke 1:46-55
English Standard Version (ESV)
Mary’s Song of Praise: The Magnificat
46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
Luke 1:67-80
English Standard Version (ESV)
Zechariah’s Prophecy
67 And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying,
68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
for he has visited and redeemed his people
69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David,
70 as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71 that we should be saved from our enemies
and from the hand of all who hate us;
72 to show the mercy promised to our fathers
and to remember his holy covenant,
73 the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us
74 that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people
in the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
whereby the sunrise shall visit us[a] from on high
79 to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace.”
80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit, and he was in the wilderness until the day of his public appearance to Israel.
John 16
English Standard Version (ESV)
23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
I Have Overcome the World
25 “I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.[a] 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Isaiah 42:5-9
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Lord’s Chosen Servant
5 Thus says God, the Lord,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people on it
and spirit to those who walk in it:
6 “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
a light for the nations,
7 to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
8 I am the Lord; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them.”
Dear Daniel,
Love the Scripture. However, regarding your June 13th comment, you have provided nothing in Revelation that
As I said above, they seem to be very much awake since they are crying out in a loud voice; plus, this says nothing about the 2nd coming of Christ. Is this the best you can do?
nor have you provided Scripture that:
You have quoted lovely scriptures but nothing that actually supports the above claim. Can you see the difference? There is nothing in the scriptures that you quoted that even implies, let alone outright condemns the practice of requesting intercessory prayers from our bothers and sisters in Heaven
Your pastor or teacher has perhaps, used these verses, in conjunction with his teaching and commentary which creates the illusion that Scripture condemns the Catholic practice of “praying to the saints.” But the reality is Protestant Tradition condemns “Prayers to the Saints” but Scripture does not.
You accused me as follows:
But provide no quote or rationale for this accusation.
BFHU: “Please believe me when I say I am not making any of this up. I used to view the Catholic Church exactly like you do. We and many, many Protestants are taught things about the Catholic Church that are unfounded lies, half-truths, and assumptions based on nothing but opinion. These have been passed down from one generation to the next for 500 years. Some are almost exact quotes of Martin Luther’s caulmny.”
BFHU: “You accused me as follows:
“as BFHU has indicated against Doctor Martin Luther, above in the last yellow quotation.””
Actually, I did reference your “YELLOW QUOTE” in a prior comment. A yellow highlight appears around your quotes, but maybe you weren’t aware or forgot about your opening statement.
I was looking at the “last yellow quote” in the comments and above; not in the post itself.
I’m not exactly certain what you’re trying to ask?
Aside from Enoch and Elijah, we die and our souls go to Heaven, I’m not sure why you think we’re still dead in Heaven?
Scripture only indicates that the souls under the altar in Heaven are at rest. The altar in Heaven opens, these souls cry out to their LORD, who says it isn’t yet their time, but prepares them, and then these souls go back to rest under the altar.
I’m not certain why you’re struggling so much with God’s use of “REST” in his passage.
Dear Daniel,
I am not struggling with the concept of REST in the Rev. passage. When you originally alluded to it, I thought you were trying to show that the Saints were somehow unconscious under the altar in Heaven, and therefore could not intercede for us. If that was not your point, please enlighten me.
You originally said, “that the souls of the dead are laid to rest under the Altar in Heaven, not to be awoken until the final Tribulation/2nd Coming of Christ Jesus”
And just to be clear, these, who are under the altar, are not all the faithful who have died, but only those who have been martyred.
BFHU: “nor have you provided Scripture that:“lawfully command that we address our prayers to Christ Jesus only”?”
Daniel Stinson, on June 25, 2014 at 12:54 pm said:
John 16
English Standard Version (ESV)
23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
I Have Overcome the World
25 “I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.[a] 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Which verse do you think forbids asking the Saints to pray for us?
BFHU: “Why not just ignore it?”
Exactly, which is why those of us outside Papal authority keep asking why you even bother to push the issue or set yourselves up to defending the undefendable?
Including the name of a Saint in your prayer gains you nothing, since the Bible indicates you’ve already got Saints proactively praying for God’s Church. It’s not necessary for salvation, it doesn’t grow or strengthen your faith, and it simply distracts from the core focus on God where it should have been solely focused to begin with.
It’s like talking to a child about something serious, but the child is constantly glancing over at the cartoons in the background. Don’t be a child distracted by cartoons, turn off the TV, and assertively give God the actual attention he deserves from you and show him the respect that you expect a child to have towards yourself. I think you’ll find your prayers more fruitful, sincere, and respectful.
We’re just saying, don’t use a random Saint for a quick text message; when you could send a self addressed and stamped envelope with a handwritten note unilaterally proclaiming Christ Jesus. But if group mail and distribution lists is your thing, then I’m sure Christ Jesus will eventually find his name somewhere in the recipients list.
Dear Daniel,
The Catholic Church does not “push the issue” of praying to Saints. Even Catholics are not obliged to pray to the Saints. It is simply a Catholic practice and has been from the dawn of Christianity. We are not obliged to “prove” the practice of asking the Saints for intercession by Scripture proof texting because our Faith and practice is not derived from Scripture alone. That is a Protestant practice, which I might add is not found in Scripture. Catholic Faith, practice, and Scripture is born from the Teaching of the Apostles.
You said, “Including the name of a Saint in your prayer gains you nothing”, but you could not be more wrong. But, of course you could not know this if you never tried it. I have experienced many answered prayers because of Saintly intercession. And they do not even need to be a canonized Saint yet. In order for a person to be canonized as a Saint two documented MIRACLES, that are thoroughly investigated by the Church, science and medicine, must be attributed to the intercession of the would-be Saint, AFTER THEY HAVE DIED.
And that is precisely why the practice has persisted for 2000 years. It works.
The Catholic God is not as insecure as the Protestant conception. Our Father loves to work through His Faithful ones. He knows this brings Him even more Glory just like the many examples in Scripture.
We are all in the Body of Christ….. Yeshua(Jesus) is coming soon….so STOP arguing about petty document and get to work saving souls…..our time is short now..talk to God about this.He has given us the signs and Prophecy and tells us to watch and what happens in the last generation….this will not pass……when you see these signs….know…..well….. wake up and look.. you have seen and are seeing prophecy…fulfilled before.your very eyes….Israel restored….Six day War Jerusalem. restored…..Billy Graham ….Franklin Graham and many ministers of God. and …..Messiah Jews….. Believe Jesus(Yeshua) is coming Soon… Prayers of Saints are in Rev…also… In addition….Food for thought…..
Jesus (Yeshua) when up and talked in In these accounts, Jesus and three of his apostles go to a mountain (the Mount of Transfiguration). On the mountain, Jesus begins to shine with bright rays of light. Then the prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him ( check this out.. I was raised protestant with the mindset…..that is different then Catholic Believe…and it for this reason they do not get it…some protestant just need to do their research and talk to God about it and they will get it…especially the praying part….Catholics do not worship Mary etc….at least not in praying yes….think about how Holy Mary must have been when she conceived and carry Yeshua(Jesus) WOW……as a human…. also….Hail Mary for Full of Grace Bless are you among Women…Blessed is the fruit of your womb (Jesus or Yehsua)….Look in Luke….this is in the Bible….. God does not care what denomination you are when you die…..you are not saved by what Church you belong too….Jesus(Yeshua) does the saving….covered in the the Blood of Jesus….Saved by Grace…..He (Yeshua) makes you righteous before his Father…………….. I am the way truth and light no one comes to the Father except by me……….He Baptizes in the Holy Spirit Catholic also……and Heals and performs miracles…. Blessings…Shalom to all
I have heard lately that orthodox Jews say ….. the footsteps of their…. Messiah is close is coming soon….check it out……. And who would that be……
Shalom…..
What an impoverished view of what it means to be a family! We are part of the family of God. I cannot understand why the majority of non-Catholic Christians insist that having a relationship with our mother, brothers and sisters in the faith is unnecessary and distracting.
Can you imagine marrying into a family, but refusing to have a relationship with anyone other than your spouse because that would be unnecessary and might distract you from your spouse? Can you imagine being a child in a large family and disdaining the help of your siblings in growth and maturity as distracting you from your daddy rather than helping you to grow even closer to him?
I was blessed to grow up in a close-knit family of 7. I feel so sorry for those who are missing out on the joy of having a large family despite the fact that God has actually gifted them with one – and explicitly told them so!
Beautiful analogy.
BFHU: “Your pastor or teacher has perhaps, used these verses, in conjunction with his teaching and commentary which creates the illusion that Scripture condemns the Catholic practice of “praying to the saints.” But the reality is Protestant Tradition condemns “Prayers to the Saints” but Scripture does not.”
No, not really, it’s more of an issue with Scripture being largely silent on the issue. I’d like to see Scripture where Christ Jesus specifically requests the companionship of a Saint’s name to be added in conjunction with the name of Christ Jesus, while praying.
Dear Daniel,
Catholics are not Sola Scriptura but Lutherans are. Therefore, doesn’t the basis of your criticism of the Catholic practice of asking for the intercession of the Saints need to be based on Scripture? And yet your tradition goes outside of Scripture to form the doctrine that the Catholic Church errs in praying to Saints. I don’t get why, since Scripture is silent, Protestants attack the Catholic Church on this issue. Why not just ignore it? No one is forcing Protestants to pray to Saints.
BFHU: “And yet your tradition goes outside of Scripture to form the doctrine that the Catholic Church errs in praying to Saints.”
Which doctrine is that? http://bookofconcord.org/pdf/TrigBOC.pdf
I misspoke if protesting prayer to Saints is not an official doctrine, per se, it certainly is a universal Protest-ant practice and belief that the Catholic Church is in error on the issue.
Yeshua does not care if you are Protestant,Catholic or Jewish or etc…It is a Jewish Bible….think about it….it came from Yeshua(Jesus) Salvation first to the Jews then to the Gentiles…. God cares about your personal relationship with him not just knowing about him…. We are saved by Grace……Praying to the saints ….prayers are also talked about in Rev…who do you think the prayers in heaven are coming from….SAINTS….its the mindset.. of the (protestant teachings..) I was raised with this…….Baptism for the dead is talked about once in the Bible and Paul did not rebuked it…..praying for dead is done by Jewish also…. We are all in the Body of Christ….whether Protestant or Catholic …same baptism, same grace….confessed Jesus is our Savior…Our LORD…
BFHU: “We are not obliged to “prove” the practice of asking the Saints for intercession by Scripture proof texting because our Faith and practice is not derived from Scripture alone. That is a Protestant practice, which I might add is not found in Scripture. Catholic Faith, practice, and Scripture is born from the Teaching of the Apostles. Catholics are not Sola Scriptura but Lutherans are.”
The Crypto-Calvinist have their own approach known as the Five Solae or Five Solas of the Reformed Reformation:
1. Scripture Alone
2. Faith Alone
3. Grace Alone
4. Christ Alone
5. Glory to God Alone
The Reformed Tradition typically leans more heavily in thought-for-thought translations of Scriptures. They also apply a far less literal interpretation from Scripture and often don’t support Scripture with Scripture to the extent seen in Lutheranism.
The original “Sola” is part of a sermon by Dr. Martin Luther. Though the Sola is singular, it consist of three parts: Grace, Word, and Faith preceded by the “alone”. This is figurative and metaphorical speech to get the point of the sermon across. The “Sola” and its three parts aren’t mentioned anywhere in Lutheran doctrine or in our confessions. It’s a literary approach to discussing the Trinity.
Alone (Sola) = Trinity
Grace = God the Father
Word = Christ Jesus
Faith = Holy Spirit
The Lutheran Reformation approach simply states that where Grace, Word, and Faith are bound together, you have the fullness of the Holy Trinity or God Alone in other words.
Lutherans do have a doctrine called or known as “the authority of Scripture”, which means individual interpretation is forbidden and all of Scripture must be supported by parallel Scripture. Where and when doctrines and teachings are appropriately applied, complementary and adjoining Scriptures are used contextually (not as snippets) to form our core doctrines. Lutherans have traditionally taken a more literal approach to Scriptural translation in their use of original codex and modern translations like the: NKJV, RSV, and ESV. Lutheran doctrine only quotes directly from the Apostolic Scriptures of Christ Jesus’ Apostles and those pre-existing Scriptures of the Hebrew Masoretic. Outside of Lutheran doctrine, Lutheran traditions on the other hand do exceed the typically understood 66-books of the Anglican Church from the late 1880’s to present in Western Christendom. Many Lutheran hymns for instance come directly out of Apocryphal Scriptures that have no direct quotes from the Patriarchs, Apostles, or Christ Jesus.
Though Confessional Lutheran seminarians are required to translated directly out of Koine and Hebrew for 6-years before becoming ordained; they’re also well studied in their fellow brothers in Christ, the Saints of the ancient Church; so do partake of Scriptural tradition in terms of consistency. Confessional Lutherans don’t take the position that the Scripture lacks apostolic succession, as claimed by the Roman-Catholic Magisterium.
Regardless of the context, whether a Lutheran’s use of “Word” as Christ Jesus revealed by the Apostolic Scriptures or by a broader use of the term Scripture as a sole authority over Scripture, in some form of Sola Scriptura as we know it in this post modern world; Scripture in effect is the benchmark for our Christian faith, whether apostolically spoken or apostolically read.
I’ll post some Scripture later as to why Lutheran practice the authority of Scripture.
The Inspiration of Scripture
A Report of the Commission on Theology and Church Relations of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod, March 1995
file:///C:/Users/Daniel/Downloads/Inspiration%20of%20Scripture%201975.pdf
Dear Lee,
Are you aware that you are “reading into” this scripture your own opinion/theology/interpretation? The words of the verse you quoted say NOTHING about PRAYER. I absolutely agree with the verse but I do not agree with your interpretation. I think the verse clearly says that Jesus is the way to the Father, to find Him, to know Him, to love Him, to obey Him, to find Eternal Life.
good day, what a nice conversation… however, I always asked myself the question ‘why should I ask any man to talk for me to GOD when I have the Mediator my LORD JESUS CHRIST ‘? I mean the bible says “there is one mediatir between GOD and man !”(1Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) praying , I have also never seen a practice of such lawful or taught nor explained or even made an example of …no 1 man in the Word of GOD have I seen praying to a saint that has passed on or asking help of direction to an angel or saint at all … Nevertheless I have read in several cases where man are worshiped and honoured beyond measure or as if they were God… GOD says he knows our hearts desires and needs before we even ask “HIM” no one else thus far … we also read and see how Samuel reacts when Saul requires help from him… not very happy is he …to be distured while he rests… when saints pass on they go to GOD’s place of what ? rest … to do what ? GOD knows … now judge what I say ye wise man, yes it says no where in the Word nor directly forbiden to pray and seek help from the dead in Christ …but were does it say we should ? What doctrine is this that you are doing or teaching ? Is it from CHRIST …are you teaching what is in the Word of GOD ? And also when you say the pope is the representative of CHRIST JESUS here on earth …what are you ? do you represent the pope ? In the book of 1Peter we are told we are a royal priesthood …matthew says go ye therefore and preach to the whole world the gospel of CHRIST and HIS alone … who are you representing ? Paul always humbled himself when he wrote to the saints …saying lest I be praised over much… etc…he ensured that he is not the centre piece or look like the centre of holiness or of some sort …but made sure our thoughts stays focused in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD and made no reputation of himself …read Phillpians 2 :6-7 ” CHRIST -Who being in the form of GOD , thought it not ribbery to be equal with GOD: But made of HIMSELF no reputation , …etc, is it still that way… Paul was a representative of CHRIST …. yet have we ever read any where in the Word of GOD were he was worshiped or prayed to or shown any kind of high honour or bowed down to… even GOD’s Angels forbid man to bow to them read the Word and see for yourself ,so don’t you think if GODs Angels forbid that though being made a little higher than man we should too or should we allow it though shown otherwise in the Word ? but the pope is a different story isn’t it ! I tell you of the truth our GOD …HE…HE is but a JEALOUS GOD …Isbaba… therefore let us follow the doctrine of CHRIST …Christians .Amen.
Dear Bongani,
You are right we can just pray straight to God but we ask the Saints to pray for us b/c it works! God is so secure He has this habit of NOT doing things directly but giving His children the blessed opportunity to be His helpers and carry out His plans when He could certainly have just done it all by Himself if He was worried about some lowly man or woman getting noticed.
Who built the Ark? God could have made it much more quickly, but no…
Who led the Israelites out of Egypt? Could God have done that all by Himself?
Who had to expel the Cannanites out of the Promised Land? Couldn’t God have done that all by Himself?
When Israel was disobedient who did God use to punish them by letting them get conquered?
Who reconquered the land of Israel when Israel repented after they kept getting conquered b/c of disobedience, during Judges? Could God have done it all by Himself?
When God finally got fed up with them and punished Israel and Judah with exile, did He do that all by Himself?
And then when they had been exiled long enough how did God get them back to the Promised Land? Did He use someone to help out with that?
Then He sends His son, a God-Man to accomplish Salvation. The GREATEST GIFT TO MANKIND EVER! And then who did He leave in charge of that?
Who did He trust to bring the Gospel to the World? Couldn’t He have found some way to do all that all by Himself?
And then who did God trust to compile what we know of today as The Bible? Why didn’t Jesus write that all up? Or at least the New Testament?
Believe me, Catholics are not stupid. We pray to Saints b/c it seems to work better. I am not saying Protestant don’t get their prayers answered. They do. But, compared to my prayers as a Protestant and as a Catholic praying to the Saints….it just works. Not 100% of the time though of course.
good day, what a nice conversation… however, I always asked myself the question ‘why should I ask any man to talk for me to GOD when I have the Mediator my LORD JESUS CHRIST ‘? I mean the bible says “there is one mediatir between GOD and man !”(1Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) praying , I have also never seen a practice of such lawful or taught nor explained or even made an example of …no 1 man in the Word of GOD have I seen praying to a saint that has passed on or asking help of direction to an angel or saint at all … Nevertheless I have read in several cases where man are worshiped and honoured beyond measure or as if they were God… GOD says he knows our hearts desires and needs before we even ask “HIM” no one else thus far … we also read and see how Samuel reacts when Saul requires help from him… not very happy is he …to be distured while he rests… when saints pass on they go to GOD’s place of what ? rest … to do what ? GOD knows … now judge what I say ye wise man, yes it says no where in the Word nor directly forbiden to pray and seek help from the dead in Christ …but were does it say we should ? What doctrine is this that you are doing or teaching ? Is it from CHRIST …are you teaching what is in the Word of GOD ? And also when you say the pope is the representative of CHRIST JESUS here on earth …what are you ? do you represent the pope ? In the book of 1Peter we are told we are a royal priesthood …matthew says go ye therefore and preach to the whole world the gospel of CHRIST and HIS alone … who are you representing ? Paul always humbled himself when he wrote to the saints …saying lest I be praised over much… etc…he ensured that he is not the centre piece or look like the centre of holiness or of some sort …but made sure our thoughts stays focused in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD and made no reputation of himself …read Phillpians 2 :6-7 ” CHRIST -Who being in the form of GOD , thought it not ribbery to be equal with GOD: But made of HIMSELF no reputation , …etc, is it still that way… Paul was a representative of CHRIST …. yet have we ever read any where in the Word of GOD were he was worshiped or prayed to or shown any kind of high honour or bowed down to… even GOD’s Angels forbid man to bow to them read the Word and see for yourself ,so don’t you think if GODs Angels forbid that though being made a little higher than man we should too or should we allow it though shown otherwise in the Word ? but the pope is a different story isn’t it ! I tell you of the truth our GOD …HE…HE is but a JEALOUS GOD …Isbaba… therefore let us follow the doctrine of CHRIST …so you catholics have many mediators I percieve… violation of scripure don’t you think? GOD bless.
@Bongani Majola, do you mean that you never ask anyone to pray for you because all you need is to go to Jesus? Yet Scripture talks about people praying for one another.
In fact, the men who carried the paralytic and lowered him thru the roof to Jesus were human intercessors – yet Jesus could have cured him so he did not need those men.
In fact, we do not need to pray at all as the Lord knows what we need sooner and better than we ourselves do.
And yet, Scripture tells us to pray, pray for one another, and pray unceasingly – the “Just Jesus and me” understanding cannot be correct as it conflicts with Scripture.
QuoVadis, how do your comments relate to the deceased, who’ve passed from this Earth?
Those men who carried the paralytic performed their duties according to how they’re lead by the Holy Spirit. I don’t see where any intercession took place, as intercession would indicate Christ Jesus wasn’t present and used an intercessor in his place.
It’s for Christ Jesus’s glory that he healed the paralytic; not to portray the glorification of some sort of intercession that you believe took place. Just as seen with Christ Jesus healing the blind man for the glory of God as that was predestined and not a result of any man’s sin that he was born blind.
We pray to confess our sins, for the remission of sins, and to ask the Holy Spirit to help others forgive us of our trespasses against them, and to help us forgive the trepasses against us. We pray to ask for God’s mercifully judgement on us and to thank God for his means of grace: given through his Covenant at the cross in baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
In prayer we thank God for those Saints of the Church whom God called into his Church before us, giving us one sound Catholic faith, in one true Church. It’s for such a reason that Dr. Martin Luther posted our 95 Theses on the door of All Saints Cathedral on the Catholic Holiday, All Saints Eve (October 31st, 1517), holding strong to sound and traditional doctrine.
Well, before I can address your questions, we will clearly have to find some agreement on what Scripture says about intercessory prayer (where one person prays to God for the needs or intentions of another):
Matt.5 [44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Luke.6 [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
Acts.8 [24] And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
2Cor.9 [14] while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
2Cor.13 [9] For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement.
Col.1 [9] And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Col.4 [3] and pray for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison,
1Thes.5 [25] Brethren, pray for us.
2Thes.1 [11] To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power,
2Thes.3 [1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you,
Heb.13 [18] Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.
Jas.5 [16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
1John.5 [16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
So can we at least agree that it is indeed Scriptural for Christians to pray to God for the needs of others (ie. intercede for them)?
Smalcald Articles (SA): Prayer.
In the narrow sense, a request, or petition, for benefits or mercies; in the wide sense, any communion of a soul with God. May be divided into adoration, expressing a sense of God’s goodness and greatness; confession, acknowledging unworthiness; supplication, asking pardon, grace, or any other blessing; intercession (praying for others); thanksgiving. Private prayer includes spontaneous ejaculations, wishes, or appeals and deliberate prayer (cf. Mt 6:6). Family prayer (as at mealtime and in family worship [“family altar”]) and social prayer in pub. worship are forms of corporate prayer.
Prayer is commanded by God (1 Ch 16:11; Ps 50:15; Mt 7:7; Ph 4:6), has His promises (Ps 91:15–16; Jn 16:23; Jn 5:16b), and hence is a vital part of Christian life. To be valid, prayer must be made to the true God (1 Sm 7:3; Is 42:8); Ap XXI 8–10 grants that saints and angels pray for us but adds: “it does not follow that they should be invoked”; cf. AC XXI 2, which quotes 1 Ti 2:5. It must proceed from faith (Mt 21:22; Ja 1:6–7), which is created by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:3), who assists and guides in prayer (Ro 8:26); faith excludes willful sin, which invalidates prayer (Ps 66:18; Pr 28:9; Is 1:15; 59:2; Jn 9:31). It must be conditioned by the will of God (1 Jn 5:14; cf. Ro 8:28) and be as broad as living mankind (1 Ti 2:1; Heb 9:27).
Prayer must be more than an emergency measure in time of trouble; it must constantly reach out for the more abundant life promised by God (Ro 12:12; Ph 4:6–7; 1 Th 5:17). Prayer must be an integral part of the home that is to function acc. to God’s plan (Jos 24:15) and is essential to the ch. in its life and functions (Mt 18:19–20; Lk 11:13). A cong. prays the Lord to give its pastor “utterance” (Eph 6:19) and open doors to him (Cl 4:3). The pastor prays that God may strengthen his cong. “with might by His Spirit in the inner man” (Eph 3:16). Pastor and people present special needs of individual mems. and families to God.
Kinds and forms of prayer are indicated, e.g., in the OT by such words as tephillah (in heading of Ps 17, 86, 90, 102, 142 and in Hab 3:1; prayer, intercession, supplication), sheelah (e.g., 1 Sm 2:20; Est 5:6, 7; prayer in gen., request, petition), todah (e.g., Ps 26:7; 42:5; Is 51:3; thanksgiving, praise). For kinds and forms of prayer mentioned in the NT cf., e.g., 1 Ti 2:1.
Jesus was in constant prayer communication with His heavenly Father (e.g., Mt 14:19; 26:39, 42, 44; Mk 1:35; 6:46; Lk 23:46; Jn 17; cf. Mt 6:9–13).
Incentives to prayer: God’s command and promise and our own and our neighbor’s need (Ps 122:6; Jer 29:7; Mt 5:44; 6:6; 9:38; 24:20; 26:41; Lk 6:28; 18:1–7; Ro 8:26; 1 Th 5:17, 25; 1 Ti 2:1, 8; Ja 5:13).
Smalcald Articles (SA): Veneration of Saints
The Luth. confessions assume the existence of saints and include them in the communio* sanctorum. Saints pray for the ch. in gen. (Ap XXI 9) but are not mediators of redemption (Ap XXI 14–30). Gen. the saints are given the same attributes they had on earth. Prayers to saints are prohibited (SA-II II 25).
The Luth. confessions approve honoring the saints (AC XXI 1). They are honored in 3 ways: 1. By thanking God for examples of His mercy; 2. By using the saints as example for strengthening our faith; 3. By imitating their faith and other virtues. (Ap XXI 4–7) EL
Smalcald Articles (SA II.ii.25) Part II, Article II: Of the Invocation of Saints.
The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints].
And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor].
In short, the Mass itself and anything that proceeds from it, and anything that is attached to it, we cannot tolerate, but must condemn, in order that we may retain the holy Sacrament pure and certain, according to the institution of Christ, employed and received through faith.
Mary is not omnipresent..She cannot hear your prayers..Jesus said if you pray..two or more. ..he will be there with us..He encourages us to be united with other Christians..Praying to the dead is forbidden in the bible..REMEMBER the story of the RICH MAN AND LAZARUS? That story teaches us that the dead cannot communicate with the living..Whether he is in Paradise or Hades..The dead CANNOT communicate with the living..Whether he be Gods chosen..or one of the doomed..I like many things about the Catholic church..but the praying to Mary..I just cannot do..
To Tess:
1) Mary is not omnipresent but the omnipotent God can certainly grant her this ability as He wills. There’s much which we don’t understand about that side of heaven. Your problem is a bad theology of God.
2) In the parable, when the rich man petitions Lazarus to warn the living family members, it is already implied that there’s the possibility of it … except that Abraham was also right that it would be futile for the hardened hearts just like how they disbelieved and even planned to kill Lazarus after he was miraculously raised from death in the real life (Jn 12:9-11).
One needs to learn to read the bible more critically. Abraham actually never said that he wouldn’t “communicate” with those still living but only that he had much reservation about it. There was a “great chasm” (or impassable divide) between the rich man and Lazarus, meaning most likely that the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was with the righteous in Abraham’s bosom. With the rich man, it is true that prayers cannot help him any longer. Not so with those waiting in Abraham’s bosom or those in purgatory (after Calvary).