Why Do You Always Ask Protestants for Scripture Support?



Mark: In many of the reply’s I have read on your site, I have seen “scripture support please” many times in your response to someone’s post.

BFHU: I often ask Protestants to support their assertions with scripture b/c they are blind to the fact that, just like Catholics, many of the things they believe and assert are not actually spelled out in Scripture either. Protestants too, have their traditions in doctrine. Most Protestants hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, that all religious truth must be in Scripture or else it is to be condemned. And yet this very foundational belief is nowhere to be found in scripture! So, they

4″Theytie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but theythemselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. -Matthew 23:4

Protestants constantly ask Catholics,
Where is Purgatory in Scripture?
Where is the immaculate conception in scripture?
Where is the Pope in scripture? etc.
But, I ask,

Where is Sola Scriptura in Scripture?

Catholics have never claimed that every doctrine taught by the Apostles (TRADITION) is spelled out in Scripture. So, when I cannot cite scripture to spell out a doctrine I believe, and that the Church teaches, it does not bother me, as Protestants think that it should.

We try very hard to find what scriptural support there is for Protestants who ask for it, in the hope that they will see that we do have many scriptures that supports our beliefs, even if Protestants don’t agree with our interpretation. We hope they will at least see that our interpretation is just as legitimate as theirs.

Mark: To use the argument “where in the Bible does it say it is not true”, not true?” in my opinion, is not the strongest of positions to take.

BFHU: I agree. And I do not mean to imply that anything goes as long as it is not condemned in Scripture. If our beliefs were found neither in scripture nor in the beliefs of the the earliest Christians, I could not believe them either.

Mark: So now I respectfully ask for scripture support regarding your response to my question.

BFHU: You actually said,

“Please give me scriptural support for praying to Mary when God has made himself available to me? If you cannot provide the scriptural support, can you please provide me a logical reason for doing this?

Rather than try to give scriptural support, I took you up on the option of giving a logical reason for the intercession of the saints. That this practice proceeds naturally from the doctrine of the Body of Christ residing in Heaven .

The Scripture passages I would use to support the intercession of the Saints, would be the passages about the Body of Christ, or the exhortation for us to pray for one another, (in spite of the fact that God has made Himself available to us) but I am sure that you already know these. And yet these ARE the very verses that underlie our practice of asking the Saints for intercessory prayer.

These verses are rejected by Protestants b/c they are convinced that we are REALLY worshiping the saints and not merely asking them to pray for us. So, Protestants want us to produce a scripture that says “Worship Mary and the saints.” because that is what they think we believe. But we DO NOT!!! We merely believe in intercessory prayer among the members of the Body of Christ, even the members who are alive in Heaven. This is not really contrary to anything Protestants know about the power of God. It is just new to them.

Advertisements

9 Responses

  1. Mary and the saints are not omniscient or omnipresent-they are not God! So they cannot hear every catholic that are praying…oups, sorry, asking intercessory prayer for them!

    • You are right. They, in their humanity alone, could never hear all the prayer requests that they get. But with God all things are possible.

  2. That is a very simple reply. Could you please elaborate on what you believe might be the process in which they gain the ability of hearing everybody and be present for everybody, with without being given divine abilities? And back it up with scriptures or other sources of your choice?

  3. Karine,
    I can no more tell you how the Saints are able to hear all the prayer request we make to them than I can explain how, Joseph accurately interpreted the Pharoh’s dream, Moses parted the Red Sea, or Elijah prayed down fire on his altar to God that burned up more than any ordinary fire. None of them were personally given divine abilities. Divinity empowered them. God worked through them. Why? He didn’t NEED to use humans to accomplish what He wanted to do. But, we see all throughout the OT that this is His preferred Method of Operation. This has not changed.

    I am sure that you agree that God has the power to enable Mary and the Saints to hear our prayer requests. You are just not convinced He does this. That is fair.

    Ask yourself why, since, “with God all things are possible,” that anyone can condemn the practice of asking our brothers and sisters in Christ who just happen to be alive in Heaven, to pray for us?

    What is really wrong with that?

  4. You are right that I do not have any thing scriptural to condemn the practice of asking prayers to people in heaven. And not everything related to my religion is found is scripture(although everything essential to salvation is in there).

    But here is the problem: my family and friends(catholics) do pray TO Mary and the saints. They are asking her favors, and they are thanking her for her support and her answers. In a catholic magazine, I read that story of a woman asking Mary for advice and listening to her voice. If that is not contradicting the scriptures, it is close.

    The theory you are explaining is nice, but the reality is something else.

    There is a problem with the teachers of the catholic church if the flock is so mislead. You are from a protestant background, and you intensely studied the dogmas of the catholic church, but the regular believer who just goes to mass does not seem to know all that you are explaining on this website.

    Another thing that’s wrong: the danger of too much emphasis. I know you are not too crazy on sola scriptura, but really the first church- Acts and the letters are pretty silent on asking prayers to Mary or the Saints. Actually, they are pretty silent on Mary period. Mary and the Saints are SO present in a conversation with a catholic that one would be entitled to ask if they are not taking the place of Jesus.

    Also, it is just weird to hear catholics pray 20 times the same thing. That does contradicts Scriptures(Matthew 6.7) When I ask a friend to pray for me , I do not go like this:

    -Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!

    See what I mean? To summarize:

    -The ”asking prayers to saints” thing is badly taught, and is so unclear that catholics believers are doing it wrong.

    -The emphasis is taken away from Jesus

    -Even Mary could hear you, which I doubt, there would be no point asking her 20 times the same thing.

    All this being said, the important thing is that we believe in our Savior Jesus, the Son of God, and that we are saved by grace. The rest is just fun to talk about and exchange.

    P.S. I am french, sorry for the mistakes.

    • Karine: But here is the problem: my family and friends(catholics) do pray TO Mary and the saints. They are asking her favors, and they are thanking her for her
      support and her answers. In a catholic magazine, I read that story of a woman asking Mary for advice and listening to her voice. If that is not contradicting the scriptures, it is close.

      The theory you are explaining is nice, but the reality is something else.

      BFHU: The “theory (I am) explaining” is the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think you should politely ask your relatives if they believe Mary has the power on her own to answer prayer or if God answers her prayers for us.

      It can sometimes sound downright heretical (and maybe it is in a few cases) but I once had a Physician friend tell us how he had gone to Europe and actually seen Catholics worshiping idols in the Churches. What he saw were people kneeling in front of statues or pictures and praying. Because Protestants only say prayers to GOD, when he saw prayer in front of a statue he was convinced he was seeing idol worship.

      Now, I don’t know what was in the heart of the people in prayer but neither did he. He jumped to a conclusion based on the traditions of his religion, which created a bias he was completely unaware of. He is a very nice man but in this case made a judgment of the heart of someone he never even talked to or inquired about what they were doing. This is uncharitable. And he would never want to be uncharitable. He didn’t mean to be but Protestantism breeds a pride and arrogance that secretly takes root without the individual realizing its hidden presence. I am speaking from experience.

      Karine: There is a problem with the teachers of the catholic church if the flock is so
      mislead.

      BFHU: You could not be more correct about that! The catechesis in the Catholic Church in America and Europe has been a huge failure for the past 40 years. That’s 30 years longer than I have been Catholic. I thank God I did not have to go through all those years like so many Catholics around the world.

      Karine: You are from a protestant background, and you intensely studied the
      dogmas of the catholic church, but the regular believer who just goes to mass does not seem to know all that you are explaining on this website.

      BFHU: You’re right again, unfortunately.

      Karine: Another thing that’s wrong: the danger of too much emphasis. I know you are not too crazy on sola scriptura, but really the first church- Acts and the letters are pretty silent on asking prayers to Mary or the Saints. Actually, they are pretty silent on Mary period. Mary and the Saints are SO present in a conversation with a catholic that one would be entitled to ask if they are not taking the place of Jesus.

      BFHU: Much was left out of what got written down, see: John 21:25. People talk a lot about the saints and answered prayer as a result of the intercession of the saints because it is exciting and they want to pass on the good news about the helpful prayers of our brethren in Heaven.

      Romans 12:4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others

      I Corinthians 12:4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others… 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it

      Karine: Also, it is just weird to hear catholics pray 20 times the same thing.
      That does contradicts Scriptures(Matthew 6.7) When I ask a friend to pray for me , I do not go like this:

      -Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless! etc.
      See what I mean?

      BFHU: LOL. I do see what you mean. But do you understand the history of the Rosary? You can read it HERE—>Short History of the Rosary or Catholic Encyclopedia

      It is not really about asking 50 times for the same thing. It is primarily a meditation on the life of Christ that takes about 20 minutes for each set of mysteries- The joyful,sorrowful, luminous and glorious. It is really a very beautiful devotion and in several of Mary’s church approved, apparitions Mary begs for everyone to pray the Rosary. It does not focus on Mary as many think, but on her Son.

      Below are the Mysteries. This can seem a little complicated and daunting. Because the rosary and beads are a means for praying with focus, the mysteries merely refine that focus further.

      The Five Joyful Mysteries are: (one mystery per rosary decade)
      1) The Annunciation: The Angel Gabriel appears to Mary to announce she is to be the Mother of God.
      2) The Visitation: Mary is greeted by her cousin Elizabeth who declares, “Blessed art Thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!”
      3) The Nativity: The Virgin Mary gives birth to our Savior.
      4) The Presentation: The Blessed Mother presents the child Jesus in the Temple.
      5) The Finding in the Temple: The Blessed Mother finds Jesus in the Temple.
      The Five Sorrowful Mysteries
      1) The Agony in the Garden: Jesus prays in Gethsemane
      2) The Scourging at the Pillar: Pilate has Jesus whipped
      3) The Crowning with Thorns: Upon Jesus’ head is placed a painful crown of thorns
      4) The Carrying of the Cross: Jesus carries the heavy cross upon His shoulders to Calvary
      5) The Crucifixion: Jesus is nailed to the Cross and agonizes three hours before dying
      The Five Glorious Mysteries
      1) The Resurrection: Jesus rises three days after His death
      2) The Ascension: Jesus ascends into heaven forty days after His resurrection
      3) The Descent of the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit comes upon Mary and the Apostles
      4) The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin: The Blessed Mother is brought body and soul into heaven to be with her Son
      5) The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary: Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth
      The Five Luminous Mysteries are:
      1) The Baptism: John the Baptist baptizes Jesus in the river Jordan
      2) The Self-Manifestation of Our Lord at Cana: Jesus changes water into wine at the wedding feast
      3) The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God: Jesus preaches about God’s kingdom and calls for conversion
      4) The Transfiguration: Jesus is transfigured before the disciples
      5) The Institution of the Eucharist: Jesus offers His body and blood under the signs of bread and wine.

      Karine:-To summarize:
      The ”asking prayers to saints” thing is badly taught, and is so unclear that catholics believers are doing it wrong. The emphasis is taken away from Jesus.

      BFHU: This is not by design of the teaching of the Catholic Church. If people are praying to Mary in a wrong way then she will pray for them to come closer to her Divine Son. That is her desire, to lead us all to Christ. The Catholic Faith is a mystery and supernatural. It does not follow the ways of the world.

  5. Father, in the Name of Jesus Christ, I pray that anyone reading this post will be lead by Your Spirit and the Power of Your Blood to You, THE TRUTH! Let the scales fall from their eyes to know that you are God and Your Word *alone* is true because Jesus is the Word of God (John 1: 1-14) and He is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. I believe it done in Jesus’ Name!

    The Bible (Holy Scripture) is replete with warnings against adding to it and taking away from it. It is a lie from the pit of Hell that we can take man’s word (oral tradition) over the word of God. Scripture even tells us that we should not take the word of angels over the word of God. Anyone–it doesn’t matter who you are or what denomination you come from–who perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ is accursed!

    Just a few scriptures that support what man calls Sola Scriptura are:

    Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Psalms 12:6-7, Isaiah 28:9-14, Matthew 16:18, John 15:1-11, 1 Cor 1:10-13, 1 Cor 3:5-17, 1 Cor 4:6, Gal. 1:6-9, Revelation 22:18-19.

    There are other scriptures that prove that no one should change the word of God by addint to it or taking away.

    “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB)

    If you stay in the Word of God and receive God’s illumination of his Word you will not fail because God will not allow you to fail!

    A major problem is that too many so-called Christians do not have the Holy Spirit in them to be able to rightly divide the Word of God or to understand the Holy Scripture. A scriptural litmus test to see if you are truly a believer is Mark 16:17-18…

    17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT IN WORD BUT IN POWER! TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE POWER IN GOD! And the word of God allows us to be washed, purified, fortified and to have the mind of Christ to demonstrate God’s power in the earth. The earth is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    Are you a true son of God? If not you can become one. The LORD said in Jeremiah 29: 13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

  6. MK: The Bible (Holy Scripture) is replete with warnings against adding to it and taking away from it.

    Deuteronomy 4:1-2: “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.

    2“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    BFHU: OK. You have cited scripture from the OLD TESTAMENT that warns against adding to or taking away from Scripture. Let’s think about that.

    The citation is from Deuteronomy.

    Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the OT.

    And yet another 34 books were added after Deuteronomy!!!

    And after that, Christians added another 27 books called the New Testament.

    And then, one thousand years after the canon of the Bible was finalized by Catholic Popes and councils, Martin Luther removed seven books from the Old Testament and seven books from the New Testament that contradicted his personal theology. He later added the New Testament books back in to his translation of the Bible but Protestants today still have an Old Testament that is missing seven books.

    Therefore, perhaps something is a little wrong with the way you are interpreting this scripture. No?

    Generally what Protestants accuse Catholics of adding to the Bible is “Tradition”. But you have not been well taught. Protestants have an oral tradition of teaching their people that Catholics have added the “traditions of men” to the written Word of God. But that is misinformation. Don’t you think it is just a bit arrogant to think that Catholic theologians, priests, bishops, popes, everyone else for 2000 years completely missed those verses about the “traditions of men”?

    Mark 7:8Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.

    Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

    Mark 7:13 invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down;

    Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

    No. The Catholic Church did not miss those verses. The Catholic Church wholeheartedly agrees with not only these verses but all of Sacred Scripture.

    What we call “Tradition” DOES NOT MEAN “traditions of men”. Protestants confuse the issue in order to maintain their grip on a concept with which to beat up the Catholic Church and accuse her corrupting the Christian Faith.

    What we mean by TRADITION with a capital “T” is simply the oral teachings of the APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST. What we call Tradition is short for APOSTOLIC TRADITION. This is none other than what JESUS taught His Apostles. Some of His teachings got written down. These we call the Written Tradition or Scripture. The teaching that did not get written down is called Oral Tradition, Tradition, Apostolic Tradition. One thing it is NOT is the mere “traditions of men”. Those were condemned by Jesus and the apostles and we too condemn them.

    Here are two Scriptures that clearly support the holding firmly to Oral Traditions/ Oral Teachings.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    1 Corinthians 11:2
    Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

    So we know that the Thessalonians had the benefit of Oral Tradition, taught by word of mouth. And Paul told them to HOLD TO THEM.

    Add to this the fact that the Apostle John clearly tells us in Scripture that all that Jesus did had not been written down because the whole world could not contain the books if they were. (John 21:25) The evidence for a body of teaching that was oral for a long time is certainly in Scripture. You can interpret these verses in ways that support your biases but unless you maintain infallibility I certainly have the freedom to interpret them to support the Catholic Faith. And the Catholic Church DOES assert infallibility in all Her teachings regarding Faith and Morals.

    MK:It is a lie from the pit of Hell that we can take man’s word (oral tradition) over the word of God.

    BFHU: I agree with you that we cannot take man’s word over the word of God. And I can assure you as a former, zealous, sola scriptura Protestant that the Catholic Church does not do this.You mistakenly confuse an INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE that you, or your pastor, or some other explanation of a passage is the same thing as Scripture but it is not. That is why Protestantism, unhinged from the historic roots of Christianity has given birth to thousands of different denominations. Each denomination, split off due to a disagreement of how certain scriptures should be INTERPRETED. They all had the same scriptures and the same desire to follow Christ. But they came up with a lot of differences and confusion.

    If Scripture was truly self-interpreting then all would interpret it the same. Then there are some who wonder why there are so many different denominations and interpretations. They end up coming to the conclusion that anyone who interprets it differently than they and their church does, doesn’t truly have the Holy Spirit guiding them.

    But how do they KNOW? How do they KNOW that THEY are not the ones who think they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but are actually NOT being guided by the Holy Spirit? How does any Protestant KNOW the Catholic Church isn’t exactly what she claims to be: The ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH: Founded by Jesus Christ Himself upon Peter and the Apostles?

    You err when you say: oral tradition = { elevating man’s words above the word of God. }

    All oral tradition cannot be defined this way. You contradict no lesser person than the Apostle Paul when he told the Thessalonians and Corinthians to hold fast to the traditions that he had taught them whether oral or written.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15
    So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    1 Corinthians 11:2
    Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

    MK:Scripture even tells us that we should not take the word of angels over the word of God. Anyone–it doesn’t matter who you are or what denomination you come from–who perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ is accursed!

    BFHU: I agree.

    MK: Just a few scriptures that support what man calls Sola Scriptura are:

    Psalms 12:6-7: The words of the LORD are pure words;
    As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
    7You, O LORD, will keep them;
    You will preserve him from this generation forever.

    BFHU: Agreed. The word of God is extolled but nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK:Isaiah 28:9-14: 12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
    And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
    13So the word of the LORD to them will be,
    “Order on order, order on order,
    Line on line, line on line,
    A little here, a little there,”
    That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
    Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

    BFHU: Amen. But, again, nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: Matthew 16:18: 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    BFHU: Absolutely. And that Church, the Catholic Church, has not been overpowered.

    MK: John 15:1-11:1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser….3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you….7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you….

    BFHU: I love the parable of Christ the Vine. But again, nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to abide in us.

    MK: 1 Cor 1:10-13-Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    BFHU: I totally agree with this.From this passage we see that Jesus did not want a bunch of denominations. He only founded ONE Church. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has been in existence since Jesus founded her.

    Not clear why you have used this verse to support sola scriptura because nothing says anything about the idea that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: 1 Cor 3:5-17-

    BFHU:That is a great passage but nothing in it says anything about scripture, let alone that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: 1 Cor 4:6-6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

    BFHU: Agreed. This is an excellent verse to portray that we must not let anything nullify or contradict the word of God in Sacred Scripture. We, the Catholic Church believe this. But I think you are reading “not to exceed what is written” in the verse to mean that only what is written is to be adhered to, believed, followed, etc. Therefore, all oral teaching not explicitly contained in the written scripture is to be shunned as heresy…or something along this line.

    This is a good example of differences in interpretation.

    But Catholics read this scripture to mean that nothing may contradict anything in scripture according to the interpretation that has always and everywhere been believed.

    MK: Gal. 1:6-9-I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

    BFHU: Absolutely. If you notice St. Paul refers to what they learned from him by his preaching not by what was written. Again there is nothing here about adhering only to what has been written in Scripture.

    Here is another example of a different interpretation. You read or interpret this to say that the Bible is the only sure reservoir of what Paul taught. Therefore, only it must be accepted because it is the earliest document of what the apostles taught, orally.

    The Sacred Scriptures were not canonized to be Sacred Scripture until about 400 AD. Of course the epistles and books were written very early but so were a lot of other documents written at the same time and before 400 AD. These contain a lot of information about the Christian Faith. Some trustworthy and some not trustworthy. So Christians, for 400 years were exposed to all of these writings and the leaders in the church had to protect them from what was in error.

    When Scripture was canonized it was for the purpose of separating the wheat from the chaff. But it also limited inclusion to those writings by people who knew Jesus. But between the resurrection and the time scripture was canonized there were many excellent writings that were faithful and true.

    If however, the Protestant idea was correct, that what was canonized by the Church in 400 AD was the only teaching about Christian Faith that were to be believed and that all else must be rejected, then we would expect to see the Catholic Church do an about face on all the uniquely Catholic doctrines.

    If the canonization of scripture was supposed to present to the world all of the information necessary for salvation and growth in holiness and condemn every other teaching not explicitly contained in scripture then ancient writings should abide with teachings about sola scriptura.

    But there are none of these. The Catholic Faith continued to teach the same doctrine regarding Purgatory, Mary and Prayers for the dead. So, historically the canonization of scripture clarified what writings could be relied on to be infallible. This does not, therefore, mean that every other writing positively contained error. Some did and some didn’t.

    MK: Revelation 22:18-19-I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

    19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

    BFHU:But according to Deuteronomy the book of Revelation itself is added contrary to Deuteronomy.

    Deuteronomy 4:2:“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    MK: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB)

    BFHU:This is the classic verse used to support Sola Scriptura. But where does it say that ONLY Scripture is inspired by God and profiable for teaching….etc.?????? There is nothing in this verse that contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

  7. MK:It is a lie from the pit of Hell that we can take man’s word (oral tradition) over the word of God.

    BFHU: I agree with you that we cannot take man’s word over the word of God. And I can assure you as a former, zealous, sola scriptura Protestant that the Catholic Church does not do this.You mistakenly confuse an INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE that you, or your pastor, or some other explanation of a passage is the same thing as Scripture but it is not. That is why Protestantism, unhinged from the historic roots of Christianity has given birth to thousands of different denominations. Each denomination, split off due to a disagreement of how certain scriptures should be INTERPRETED. They all had the same scriptures and the same desire to follow Christ. But they came up with a lot of differences and confusion.

    If Scripture was truly self-interpreting then all would interpret it the same. Then there are some who wonder why there are so many different denominations and interpretations. They end up coming to the conclusion that anyone who interprets it differently than they and their church does, doesn’t truly have the Holy Spirit guiding them.

    But how do they KNOW? How do they KNOW that THEY are not the ones who think they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but are actually NOT being guided by the Holy Spirit? How does any Protestant KNOW the Catholic Church isn’t exactly what she claims to be: The ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH: Founded by Jesus Christ Himself upon Peter and the Apostles?

    You err when you say: oral tradition = { elevating man’s words above the word of God. }

    All oral tradition cannot be defined this way. You contradict no lesser person than the Apostle Paul when he told the Thessalonians and Corinthians to hold fast to the traditions that he had taught them whether oral or written.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15
    So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    1 Corinthians 11:2
    Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

    MK:Scripture even tells us that we should not take the word of angels over the word of God. Anyone–it doesn’t matter who you are or what denomination you come from–who perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ is accursed!

    BFHU: I agree.

    MK: Just a few scriptures that support what man calls Sola Scriptura are:

    Psalms 12:6-7: The words of the LORD are pure words;
    As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
    7You, O LORD, will keep them;
    You will preserve him from this generation forever.

    BFHU: Agreed. The word of God is extolled but nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK:Isaiah 28:9-14: 12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
    And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
    13So the word of the LORD to them will be,
    “Order on order, order on order,
    Line on line, line on line,
    A little here, a little there,”
    That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
    Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

    BFHU: Amen. But, again, nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: Matthew 16:18: 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    BFHU: Absolutely. And that Church, the Catholic Church, has not been overpowered.

    MK: John 15:1-11:1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser….3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you….7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you….

    BFHU: I love the parable of Christ the Vine. But again, nothing here says that ONLY the written word of God is to abide in us.

    MK: 1 Cor 1:10-13-Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    BFHU: I totally agree with this.From this passage we see that Jesus did not want a bunch of denominations. He only founded ONE Church. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has been in existence since Jesus founded her.

    Not clear why you have used this verse to support sola scriptura because nothing says anything about the idea that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: 1 Cor 3:5-17-

    BFHU:That is a great passage but nothing in it says anything about scripture, let alone that ONLY the written word of God is to be adhered to.

    MK: 1 Cor 4:6-6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

    BFHU: Agreed. This is an excellent verse to portray that we must not let anything nullify or contradict the word of God in Sacred Scripture. We, the Catholic Church believe this. But I think you are reading “not to exceed what is written” in the verse to mean that only what is written is to be adhered to, believed, followed, etc. Therefore, all oral teaching not explicitly contained in the written scripture is to be shunned as heresy…or something along this line.

    This is a good example of differences in interpretation.

    But Catholics read this scripture to mean that nothing may contradict anything in scripture according to the interpretation that has always and everywhere been believed.

    MK: Gal. 1:6-9-I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

    BFHU: Absolutely. If you notice St. Paul refers to what they learned from him by his preaching not by what was written. Again there is nothing here about adhering only to what has been written in Scripture.

    Here is another example of a different interpretation. You read or interpret this to say that the Bible is the only sure reservoir of what Paul taught. Therefore, only it must be accepted because it is the earliest document of what the apostles taught, orally.

    The Sacred Scriptures were not canonized to be Sacred Scripture until about 400 AD. Of course the epistles and books were written very early but so were a lot of other documents written at the same time and before 400 AD. These contain a lot of information about the Christian Faith. Some trustworthy and some not trustworthy. So Christians, for 400 years were exposed to all of these writings and the leaders in the church had to protect them from what was in error.

    When Scripture was canonized it was for the purpose of separating the wheat from the chaff. But it also limited inclusion to those writings by people who knew Jesus. But between the resurrection and the time scripture was canonized there were many excellent writings that were faithful and true.

    If however, the Protestant idea was correct, that what was canonized by the Church in 400 AD was the only teaching about Christian Faith that were to be believed and that all else must be rejected, then we would expect to see the Catholic Church do an about face on all the uniquely Catholic doctrines.

    If the canonization of scripture was supposed to present to the world all of the information necessary for salvation and growth in holiness and condemn every other teaching not explicitly contained in scripture then ancient writings should abide with teachings about sola scriptura.

    But there are none of these. The Catholic Faith continued to teach the same doctrine regarding Purgatory, Mary and Prayers for the dead. So, historically the canonization of scripture clarified what writings could be relied on to be infallible. This does not, therefore, mean that every other writing positively contained error. Some did and some didn’t.

    MK: Revelation 22:18-19-I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

    19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

    BFHU:But according to Deuteronomy the book of Revelation itself is added contrary to Deuteronomy.

    Deuteronomy 4:2:“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    MK: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB)

    BFHU:This is the classic verse used to support Sola Scriptura. But where does it say that ONLY Scripture is inspired by God and profiable for teaching….etc.?????? There is nothing in this verse that contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: