Did Jesus Found an Invisble Church?



Copied with permission from ProtestantErrors.com
To those who say the true Church is invisible:

Nowhere in Scripture will it ever be found that the Church is invisible. Rather references in Scripture are everywhere which point to a visible Church. How are the following verses to be understood of an invisible Church?

“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” Matt 18:17.

“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” 1 Tim 3:15

“And sending from Miletus to Ephesus, he called the priests of the church” Acts 20:17

“And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church, and by the apostles and priests, declaring how great things God had done with them” Acts 15:4

“And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed” Acts 14:22

“And when they were come, and had assembled the church, they related what great things God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles” Acts 14:26

“And going down to Caesarea, he went up to Jerusalem, and saluted the church, and so came down to Antioch” Acts 18:22

It is illogical to think that Jesus would establish His Church then make it invisible and inaccessible to us. If that were the case, where would one seek it to rule it, converse with it and lay complaints before it?

When the Church sent St. Paul, and received him, when he confirmed it, ordained priests in it, assembled it, saluted it, wrote to it, and persecuted it, was this just in spirit? These were visible acts on both sides!

The pastors and doctors of the Church are visible, therefore the Church is visible. The pastors and their sheep must know each other. What kind of shepherd cannot see his flock? St. Peter was as to a pastor when Jesus told him, “feed my sheep”, and so were the Apostles, and they are all visible.

It is the property of the Church to carry on the preaching of the Word of God, the Sacraments etc. How could this be called invisible?

How do Christians begin their course as people of God? By Baptism, a visible sign. And by whom are they governed? By bishops, which are visible men. And how has the Church been persecuted over the centuries? By visible people. Need we say more?

To put it simply, the body is composed of body and soul, and so is the Church. The Church consists of Her interior soul, which is faith, hope, charity, grace etc (all invisible), and Her exterior, which is her members, preaching, Sacraments, sacrifices etc (all visible).

Some Protestants, in defense of the invisible Church theory, have claimed that there are two Churches; one visible and imperfect Church made of its members (which can err and are called “reprobate”), and one invisible and perfect Church made of the “elect” that only God knows (which cannot err). Not only is this belief not found in Scripture but it is also illogical as we will now explain:

It is well known that all members of the Church must have their sins loosed and retained as Scripture says. Those whose sins are retained are considered reprobate (this includes priests and bishops), though they remain members of the Church until their sins are loosed. It is not until a person is cast from the Church that they are no longer considered members. Judas was reprobate, yet he was Apostle and bishop
.
To say only the elect (which Calvin and other reformers say are unknown to us) are members of the true Church is to say we cannot know for sure who our prelates are and who to pay obedience to. This goes to show that not only the elect, but also the reprobate are in the Church. The Church is equivalent to an army with good and bad soldiers, many of which stray or are killed, but the army as a whole still remains victorious over the gates of hell despite downfalls of its members.

In summary, the New Testament frequently refers to the Church as an external, visible society. How then could Our Lord require us to believe under penalty of damnation (Mark 16:16 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.)

For the rest click Protestant Errors

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18 Responses

  1. The “cut ‘n’ paste” theology in this post is terrifying and abhorrent; first, the Greek word “ekklesia” is in the New Testament around 114 times- and it NEVER is in reference to a building! If you were talking to an orginal, first-century Christian and pointed to a building saying, “Thats my church right there!” they would’ve thought you were crazy! “Ekklesia” is always referring to an assembly of people. The Greek word “kuriakon” is where we get the English word “church”, and it means “Belonging to the Lord”, but in time, with Constantine’s pagan additions fueling the Roman Catholic Church, it became a building. In John 2:19-21, Jesus speaks of destroying the earthly temple and building a new one- the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!!! But of course, we can’t see Jesus’s body, can we? But we don’t need to! He lives in us, doesn’t he? With that said, the only way you can see “a church” is to gather with other believers, because it has NOTHING to do with a building! Pagans were the ones who believe in “sacred” grounds, which was a major difference between us and them, our God is everywhere indeed!
    I find it strange that the verses you use to support this article are in old English- why is that?
    The early Christians, before the corruption of the Catholic Church, had what were called (Greek) “presbyteros” (in Latin, “presbyters), which was synonomous with “elder”. This was interchangeable with (Greek) “episkopos” which is where we get the term “bishop”. They didn’t “rule” the Christians of the era, instead, they recognized Christ as the head of their church body (imagine that!!!) and everyone was free to contribute due to everyone having their respective spiritual gifts (Romans 12:6-13). It wasn’t until Ignatius of Antioch that the title of ‘bishop’ became an authoritarian role, basically being elevated to the level of Christ. Tertullian and Cyprian of Carthage took this further (who was a former pagan orator, go figure), and soon you have a religion, not a group of believers who have a relationship with their loving God. Sadly, the Protestant Reformation didn’t fix this terrible problem (they just changed from ‘bishop’ to ‘pastor’- not really any different except for the clothing). I must point out that the early Christians were being persecuted for their beliefs before Constantine, and yet they were much more effective in winning others to Christ. Satan realized this, he knew that no matter how hard he tried, he could not prevail against this church. He could have them killed, but for each one that died, 10 more were won to Christ. So what did he do? He created a religion in which they are required to attend every Sunday, listen in languages they do not understand, and have authoritarian figures who demand their full attention and total obedience- and usually on pain of death. This is a legacy we still carry today, and unless we really dig into the Word of God (NOT men! Men are deceitful!) we are doomed to continue it

  2. Dear Jonathan,

    When we speak of a visible Church we do not mean a building. We mean The Body of Christ which is all over the world. Speaking of a building as a church is simply a convention of speech. What would you call them? Buildings-where-the-Body-of-Christ-Gather? That is too much of a mouthful. Church is short and sweet. Everyl informed Christian knows that the building is not equivalent with the Church, otherwise known as The Body of Christ.

    The post above makes this clear. Did you jump to an uncharitable conclusion? Did you actually read it all? If so you must have missed:

    To put it simply, the body is composed of body and soul, and so is the Church. The Church consists of Her interior soul, which is faith, hope, charity, grace etc (all invisible), and Her exterior, which is her members, preaching, Sacraments, sacrifices etc (all visible).

    In summary, the New Testament frequently refers to the Church as an external, visible society.

    • I did see those, but it seems since the 3rd century AD, the Roman Catholic Church became obsessed with buildings, and the obsession has continued today. Could the Eucharist be administered outside the church building? Could it be stored outside? Why must we have diocese/denominations/super-churches? These things hinder the real body of Christ, and I imagine Satan laughs every time a new one is built, because he knows that everyone who joins will a) Go there every Sunday and sit a in a chair/pew b) sit there passively c) worst case scenario- join some ministry, which will be somewhat effective, but in the end, will keep them local, and limit the damage they could truly do. Satan is a devious beast, and instead of fighting the original church, which was futile, he put them in a box called “religion”.
      Btw, I’ve never heard of the Protestant concept of “invisible church”, and I’ve attending several during my lifetime. Seems hypocritical because they follow the basic same unbiblical concept that the Catholic Church does

  3. Dear Jonathan,
    Your vitriol for places of worship seems odd. God Himself desired to have a place for the faithful to gather in the desert, The Tent of Meeting Exodus 25-31. He gave very specific directions about how it was to be put together, what implements went into it etc. Then He gave more specific direction about how He wanted the Temple in Jerusalem (I Kings 6), to be built.

    The Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches are not obsessed with buildings. Buildings accommodate the faithful in their gathering to worship in a protected place away from the extremes of the elements and provide for all. Permanent places of worship are much more welcoming to everyone but especially to the elderly or those who have health and physical problems who might stay home if the accommadations for worship were always up in the air.

    It is always preferable for the mass to offered in a place that has been consecrated for sacred use. But of course the Eucharist, when necessary (like a battlefield, or when the Church is being persecuted) may be offered in any suitable place, consecrated or not.

    The Catholic Church dioceses, and hierarchy (holy order) is simply a method of local organization. The Church would be in a muddle if everything for day to day decisions had to come from Rome. Same with Protestant denominations. They are simply methods. Superchurches are just BIG Protestant Churches. None of these things must be this way as a dogma of the faith. They are human conventions. However, the Catholic Hierarchy is Biblical.

    No, these do not hinder the Body of Christ at all. Satan would love nothing more than to be rid of the Catholic Church and all of its diocese. Why would Satan laugh every time a Church for the worship of his enemy, GOD, is built. No, he trembles, instead.

    I agree Satan is devious. He has been practicing his deception on human beings for thousands of years and he is pretty good at it. But He who is in us is greater. We are safe on our path to Eternity with the Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the Apostles. The ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

  4. Whats odd is you bring up Old Testament verses about JEWISH places of worship to support your theory (is animal sacrifice still a form of atonement??)- didn’t Jesus say He was going to destroy that system in John 2:19-21? Thats one of the claims that got Him killed! The religious hierarchy of the day HATED Him for that! And no, there is no CHRISTIAN HIERARCHY!!! Bishop, presbyter, elder- all of those terms were interchangeable at one point (like policeman, law enforcer, cop) but Catholic theologians like Ignatius of Antioch started elevating them, calling them “Bishops” and gave them incredible, unbiblical power. And as for the word “consecrated”, that word died after Christ destroyed the religious systems of the day, but it existed in pagan theology, pagan theology that found its way into the Catholic Church (they love blood, Holy objects, sacred spaces, etc.) And just out of curiosity- why was the Bishop of Rome SO important?? What does Rome have to do with Christ?
    Unfortunately, we undervalue Satan’s true intelligence and will- he is ABSOLUTELY determined to make sure we do NOT reach God! He’ll do anything to stop it, even if that means sending us to church!

  5. Dear Jonathan,
    I brought up the Old Testament regarding God’s detailed instructions on how to construct the Tent/Tabernacle and the Temple in Jerusalem, not because I believe in animal sacrifices anymore, but simply to illustrates God’s interest in sacred worship spaces. You and God are not on the same page regarding buildings for worship. God doesn’t seem to have anything against them. Not sure why you do.

    You are simply wrong about the hierarchy. Please click to see Popes and Bishops in the Early Church. Protestant translation and interpretation have obscured the offices recognized in the scriptures. They most certainly were not interchangeable. But that is how Protestants operate so they read the scriptures that way. Christ certainly did not destroy the religious system of His day. The Apostles continued to adhere to it in many ways.

    Of course, pagan religions use the word consecrated. That does not mean that, therefore, having consecrated things and people is inherently pagan. There are also pagan creation stories and flood stories. Does that make the Genesis creation and flood stories pagan? Of course not. You are using a false dichotomy to argue your position.

    False Dichotomy

    The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options, when in fact there are other possibilities. The arguer then goes on to show that the ‘only other option’ is clearly outrageous, and so his preferred conclusion must be embraced. For example:

    Either you let me go to the Family Values Tour, or I’ll be miserable for the rest of my life. I know you don’t want me to be miserable for the rest of my life, so you should let me go to the concert.

    Either you use Speed Stick deodorant, or you will stink to high heaven. You don’t want to stink, so you better buy Speed Stick.

    Either I keep smoking, or I’ll get fat. I don’t want to get fat, so I better keep smoking.

    Either we keep Charles Manson in jail, or we release him, thus risking murder, carnage, and mayhem. We don’t want murder, carnage, or mayhem, so we had better keep him in jail.

    I would not be surprised if Satan is happy to send people to some churches but that does not mean he is happy to send people to any Church. That would be stupid of him. He doesn’t want people to go over to his Enemy. Or do you think that you are the only one who holds to the infallible truth? What proof do you offer for your infallibility that anyone should follow you?

    Jonathan, you are demonstrating the non Catholic view that in religion things are either this OR that. But for Catholics many things are both/and. Peace.

  6. Well I’m still confused, you didn’t respond when I asked about Jesus destroying these temples- why did you bring them up?? Those were a COMPLETELY different time period!!! THATS when ONLY priests could enter certain places in the temple! That was BEFORE Christ died on the cross, when you HAD to sacrifice as atonement! There was a bridge between mankind and God; we could not go to Him directly, so there WAS needed a place where we could! Just out of curiosity: what exactly did Christ’s crucifixion mean to you??? It seems to have meant nothing! How in the WORLD can you say he DIDN’T DESTROY THE SYSTEM?? Why did the Pharisees hate him so much??? BECAUSE HE WAS AGAINST THEIR SYSTEM!!! A system of rules and rituals that you HAD to fulfill to get to God, rules that benefited them and added to their wealth! They tried everything they could to discredit Him, but they couldn’t- because there was no hypocrisy in Christ! He HAD to die in their minds! PLEASE tell me what you think the purpose of Christs death was!!!
    And I’m sorry, but your article was very shallow on the “Popes and Bishops in the Early Church”; again, anyone who could read the Greek (esp. in Timothy and Titus) saw that “episkopos” and “presbyteros” were used at random. Also, it uses the phrase “ordained into office”, which is off. The english word “ordained” comes from Greek “cheirotoneo” which literally means “to stretch forth the hand”, as in voting, nothing spiritual really about it. The only real authority they had was to determine how to distribute bread and care for the poor. Yet in later years, these so-called “leaders” got dictator-like power: they declared war on rival religions, sects, openly robbed the populace, and banned Bibles to the laity (why would you ban Bibles if thats your religious text??), so if you ask me, I’d say they weren’t based on the “Rock of Peter, would you? Granted, corruption can happen anywhere, but thats why CHRIST is supposed to be our eternal example, isn’t He? The way, the truth, and the life, is He not? 😀
    I think you misunderstood me when I talked about consecration/paganism; most pagan beliefs had sacred spaces, relics that could connect them to their gods, and a designated clergy that could “speak” to them, or communicate with them in some way. Similar to Judaism in the Old Testament, however, again, Christ’s death made all of that useless! But good ol’ Constantine and his gang brought it back, and in no time did Christianity (if you could call it that) had ALLLLLL of these things right back! Sacred chapels (the most of which were based of basilicas, based on pagan Greek temples), relics of holy saints (got so popular it seemed every church HAD to have one to appear legitimate), and, of course, priests who were the ONLY ones who could talk to God for you! The Catholic Church made quite a bit of money this way, and was the most powerful organization in the world. Then this bum Martin Luther came and ruined the fun for everyone (although the article “Did Martin Luther Restore the True Church” does have a point- he didn’t, just same song different verse).
    I’ll leave with this question to you: if Satan was trying to recruit you- what do you think he would say?
    A) “Hi, I’m Satan, the Prince of Darkness, and I’m here to make you miserable, leave you hollow and have you separated from God for all eternity!” OR
    B) “Hello, I’m Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! I’m here to show you ways that you can improve your life’s quality by ANY means! And if you want to attend a church to find fulfillment for your everyday needs, thats great!”
    The answer “B” is a devastating one, and he uses it to no end. I’ve seen it before, the modern day churches aren’t prepared to deal with it simply because of the way they’re set up: you have a sit, listen to the priest/preacher, and you leave. Unless you have a friend there, then theres no hope for you

  7. I brought them up because God does NOT CHANGE. So if he had an interest and desire about the Tabernacle and Temple, how can you not say on your own authority, that churches and buildings for worship are somehow a plot of the Devil?

  8. He HAD an interest in such establishments, then He gave us a wonderful gift- His son’s death for our atonement. I’m astonished you didn’t answer my question as to why Christ died, I eagerly tell all the Good News who ask (and to some annoyance to others, even when they don’t). According to you, it seems, Christ wasn’t a very nice person because he actively spoke against these things (again, why would a religious group HATE Jesus?? Doesn’t make any sense!), pick up your Bible, read:
    John 2:19-21- “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up’. The Jews then said, ‘It has taken 46 years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking about the temple of his body”.
    Mark 14:58- “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man’”.
    This our Lord and Saviour talking about destroying things- so you either believe He did, or He was lying, and I doubt Christ was a liar. If He was, He’d probably be the most wicked man of all time (I think that title goes to Mohammed though)! Put your trust in Christ alone, because men are deceitful; it astonishes me that the Catholic Church continually obeys men who are allegedly in charge of Christ’s Church, when you do this, you make Christ a mere “guest of honor”. Then they say their position is unquestionable….thats convenient, isn’t it? How may we defend ourselves from such men? BY USING GOD’S WORD!!! For example.
    Let’s say Pope Urban II was telling me to go on a Crusade (which Pope John Paul II tried to apologize for), and that if I died, I would earn immediate passage to Heaven. I would merely flip to John 3:16, or any passage where Jesus speaks against violence (Jesus had every right to resist His captors, but didn’t, and rebuked Peter for trying on his behalf “Live by the sword, die by the sword”), and find that he had no base for ordering such an act. God’s word>always better than man’s ideas. Remember: Adam and Eve walked and talked with God, they had a personal relationship with Him- you can’t get a better leader than God, can you? But then Satan promised them their own route, where they could rule their own destiny, and it was nothing but a bitter lie, wasn’t it?
    I believe Satan was the one who gave the vision to Constantine the eve before the Battle of Milvian Bridge, thus establishing him as the ruler of the empire (which is why the Bishop of Rome was so important). Knowing Constantine would bring pagan influences into Christianity, he went right to work trying to reconcile the two, and soon you have a disaster. I should have been clearer, I apologize for that, I don’t necessarily believe that the modern-day churches are ALL the work of the Devil- they’re just ignorant of their roots and what Christianity started out as (a mere group of believers with no specific meeting places, which made them SO DEADLY to Satan’s cause, because they could be meeting/witnessing ANYWHERE!). Obviously, we’ve been corralled like cattle into local churches where we will sit and stay, and to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, this is not what we are to do. We should take the fight to the enemy where ever he may be, and reach out to all lost around us. We do this by utilizing our spiritual gifts, working as a TEAM (not having a pastor or bishop who talks for 30 min while we’re quiet and still), and then, Satan is defeated! He cannot prevail against a church like this!

  9. Jon: He HAD an interest in such establishments,

    BFHU: What Scripture says He no longer has an interest?

    Jon: According to you, it seems, Christ wasn’t a very nice person because he actively spoke against these things

    BFHU:I neither said nor implied any such thing. Your reading of my comments is extremely uncharitable.

    Jon: “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up’. This our Lord and Saviour talking about destroying things-so you either believe He did, or He was lying, and I doubt Christ was a liar.

    BFHU:Jonathan, Jesus is not talking about destroying things or destroying the temple. He was talking about the Jews destroying His body. You even quoted that part above. Again you resort to a False dichotomy.

    BFHU:There is NO evidence that Constantine brought pagan influences into Christianity. It was the Christianity AFTER Constantine that canonized the Bible. If what you say was true then how can anyone trust a Bible canonized by a paganized Church. You are simply recounting all the Protestant myths that attempt to substitute for the real history of the Catholic Church.

    Do you know how a lion captures an animal out of a herd? He waits till one takes off by itself.

  10. “Jesus said, ‘Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up!’ The Jews then said, ‘It has taken 46 years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking about the temple of his body”.
    This what he said after he became angry with the markets that were in the temples, He made a cord out of whips and beat people out of the temple, turned tables over, and threw money everywhere. He knew the vast corruption occurring in these so-called “Houses of God”, and part of His glorious plan was to get rid of these defilements (Again, not all churches are out to devour souls, but the temple concept is obsolete). If you read Mark 15:36-38, after Jesus breathed His last mortal breath, the curtain for the Holy of Holy’s was torn from top to bottom (these things were huge, too!)- what did that mean??? In regards to prophecy, Isaiah 53:9-12 has a sobering sonnet (not sure what’d you call it) about Jesus, and it ends with “because He poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressions. For He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”.
    No evidence for Constantine? Let’s start with this: the term “pontifex maximus” (latin for “greatest bridgemaker”….hmmmm…..I think someone else is more worthy of that title…) was originally designated for the high priest of the ancient Roman faith, and held political AND religious power, and the name goes WAAAY before the birth of Christ. Why would the Bishop of Rome be automatically given power over the one in Jerusalem? What religious significance does Rome have (besides persecuting Christians)- THATS WHERE CONSTANTINE WAS SEATED!!! We’ve been over this before about how pagans obsessed over sacred spaces, extreme reverence for the dead, and relics- here’s another example. During the First Crusade, after the Crusaders had seized Antioch, reports of a large relief army coming from Turkey reached them. Exhausted, starving, and unsure of what to do, a priest named Peter Bartholomew claimed St. Andrew visited and told him that the “Holy Lance” (the lance that pierced Christ’s side during the Crucifixion) was buried beneath one of the towers. Some where suspicious, especially the papal legate- why was he suspicious? Because he’d seen the Holy Lance in a church in Constantinople (how you verify if an object is “holy” I have no idea)! I’ve mentioned in a previous post how almost allllllll the churches in Europe had some sort of “relic” (usually kept alongside the Eucharist, and in accordance with pagan worship grounds, only the clergy were allowed to touch it), and this kind of thinking was common. Why? Because thats how it was formed!!! Why would you question it? You couldn’t! And wouldn’t you know it? Morale shot up, and the Crusaders beat off the Turks! There’s tons of stories like this, and I’d encourage you to look it up yourself (and don’t use Vatican sources, either).

    “Do you know how a lion captures an animal out of a herd? He waits till one takes off by itself.”
    That made me laugh! Lions hunt in packs, and its almost ALWAYS the females! The male’s real only purpose is to fight other males for turf! I see what you’re saying, but again, Satan COULD NOT BEAT THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS!!! The ones that met in homes, the ones that loved their enemies (funny, why didn’t Christ just declare a Crusade and conquered the world? Would’ve been much easier), the ones that went out of there way to win others to Christ. Satan realized that resistance was futile, so what do you do? Don’t fight them, SPONSOR them! You’ll notice Satan never tried attacking Jesus, instead he tried to offer him the world.
    And for the third consecutive post, I’ll ask you why you think Christ died, I’m lost as to why you’d think He’d go through the trouble

  11. I think you know why Christ died. To make reparation to The Father for the sin of mankind so we could have access to Eternal Life through Faith. You have accepted as infallible a teaching that Jesus destroyed the Jewish religion, the Temple and hates buildings constructed to house the Faithful for communal worship. None of these things can be supported with scripture except you way of interpreting it.

    • Ok…..so a bearded Jew died some centuries ago- what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China? How does that give us eternal life? Be specific! Why did he get killed? If he was such a good person, how come he was executed? How are things different with the guy around?

      • Where are you coming from? Are you an atheist who beleives in Satan? A lone ranger Protestant? I do not know how to respond to you….

  12. wow jonathan you really have something against physical places of worship(cant even say church without being corrected) i really dont see a problem with it. If you have such a problem with it why do you even live in a materialized phycal building you call your home if the whole world is our home. and you should try to fit thousands of people in your house to see how that works out for you or try giving a service outside everyday in a place like miami. over here its really humid and hot and it will start raining out of nowhere. im pretty sure your evengelization will be poor and many if not all will leave. The Catholic church has ABOUT a billion followers and MANY of them have gotten closer to Christ through the Catholic faith which usuall provides their services in a building(although i have seen some giving them outside like you like it!) and im pretty sure thats not what satan wants. Are you SURE it came from SATAN?????? Prove it.

  13. I have great issue against pagan temples masquerading as Christian places of worship, and a system that notes clergy and laity (COMPLETELY unbiblical), first and second class Christians, and a man who says he is God’s representative on Earth. Perhaps I should have been more clear- I do believe in church as a “body of believers (note the “s”, meaning plural, more than one), the biblical definition, and thats all. Funny you mention preaching to thousands and preaching in a really hot place- didn’t Christ do that at the Sermon of the Mount? Didn’t John the Baptist do that almost everywhere he went? Israel was NOT a good place to be without fans. But having a church of “thousands” isn’t a good idea no matter how you slice it- too many people, too little “clergy”= a lot going on that no one can see. We need to be intimate to survive (not sexually), because then Satan CAN pick us off one by one. We need to teach each other, sing with each other, support each other, and work as a TEAM! But its hard to do that when theres a dictator-in-Christ preaching every Wednesday/Sunday, and you’re sitting there, silent, and not participating at all. In any sport that’d be called a “ball-hog”
    You say prove Satan did all this? I’ve given plenty of history to show just how (Catholics don’t like history one bit though, I’ve come to find)- and I shouldn’t discriminate because theres a ton of indians in North America who don’t like Protestants (and for pretty good reason too). Jesus Christ is NOT the head of the Catholic Church, a man is and always has been. How do I know? Jesus wouldn’t put a stamp of approval on the Crusades (although in fairness, it was a cold, earthly decision as Islam was running rampant- but ONLY for the First Crusade, not the other 10 or however many), He definitely wouldn’t have approved indulgences (see my last post, or better yet, your Bible on how He reacted to religious profit), he wouldn’t approved the Spanish Inquisition, nor the blank check written to Hernan Cortes written by Spanish Clergy (see: Requirement of 1513), and various other crimes committed since then. Did the popes consult God before they did these things? This isn’t the God I know, so I ask you- who the heck is running the Catholic Church that would promote these things???

  14. yea Jesus did and John the baptist but what about you??? is that What you do? is that how you evengelize? and i agree we do need to be intimate with each other and with God. And everyone in my church is allowed to participate and i dont see the dictatorship that your talking about. A preist doesnt own anything neither does a bishop or a pope. the pope doesnt get to keep the vatican nor does he own the church as a whole he simply guides the church. Its weird that you say we dont like history when the Catholic church is made up of history. Is the Catholic church approving crusades now? NO. If you really believe that there is paganism within having a building dedicated to the worship of God or paganism in the Catholic church then how can you be a christian if christianity started after jesus died and continued through the apostles which formed tha Catolic church???

  15. You really DONT know what the catholic church is about. We work as a team, teach each other, and help each other out. I can GUARANTEE you that Satan isnt the one were worshipping. If we were we wouldnt be getting closer to God and we wouldnt be falling in love with Jesus Christ. Maybe there are some people that are not headed the right way and may be worshipping Satan or be on his side but not everyone is going the same way

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