Prayer to Saints and Protestant Interpretation

Robert: What other scriptures are needed than the one where Jesus tells us how to pray?

Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven…”

Bread From Heaven: Do you then think that the ONLY prayer Jesus allowed is the Lord’s Prayer?

Robert:These passages are perfectly clear and do not need interpretation by anyone.

Bread From Heaven: Then one could make the case from the way you interpret this passage that all prayer except the Lord’s Prayer is forbidden. And some Protestant churches forbid praying the Lord’s Prayer.

Robert: He tells us not to pray in the open
He tells us not to pray in vain repetitions
He states perfectly clear to pray “in this manner” to “our Father in Heaven”

Bread From Heaven: Does He? Really? So all prayers in church are forbidden? Let’s take a look at the context:

Mt. 6:1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Jesus was contrasting show-prayer with praying in secret. This is preferred to showy prayer. But this does not mean that all public prayer is forbidden. Jesus NEVER said anywhere in Scripture that a public prayer is a sin, evil, wrong, or forbidden. This is how Protestants sometimes interpret it. But they still pray in their church services which is hypocritical.

Jesus does not denounce all repetition of prayer. He denounces VAIN repetition. Even He said the same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemane. Please see my post–>Why Not Just Pray to Jesus?

Robert: To pray any other way violates Lord Jesus order that was issued from Him directly

Bread From Heaven: Where does it say this in Scripture? You are asserting something without any authority to do so. The above scripture says no such thing. Only your interpretation says this.

Robert: The only sin worse than personally committing transgressions against God is misleading and teaching others falsely to commit transgressions which is what the Catholic Church has and is doing.

Bread From Heaven: You think this based on your own or other Protestant teaching. But that is a very different thing than any Scripture actually contradicting what the Church teaches. There is no such scripture. There is only contradictory Protestant teaching and interpretation.

Robert: There is no Biblical authorizing that exists praying to anyone but God, and to say you are simply talking to Mary, who is infact dead, is not praying to her is almost laughable if it were not so misleading.

Bread From Heaven:
Mary is NOT dead. She is alive in Heaven. Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Robert: The “Church” has perverted the Ten Commandments and continues to do so as seen in the posts above.

Bread From Heaven: You make an assertion but give us no evidence. This is then an ad-hominem attack which is usually a sign that facts are scarce.

Robert: BTW – interpretation comes from God thru the Holy Spirit to us.

Bread From Heaven: I know that you believe this but different interpretations of scripture are the exact reason there are thousands of different Protestant denominations. Not all of the interpretations are true. Not all are led by the Holy Spirit. If they were then God would be a God of Confusion. Biblical interpretation unhinged from the Church founded by Jesus Christ and history has led to chaos in Protestantism. They can only agree on a few basics. The scripture NEVER promised to guide every individual human being into truth in interpreting scripture. The Scriptures NEVER say all Christian truth is found ONLY in Scripture. This is a Protestant Tradition of men.

Robert: (The Catholic Church) murdered Martin Luther. Luther would have put them mostly out of business if everyone had understood what he was saying Of course the Church has murdered many that stood in their way.

Bread From Heaven:…uhmmm…Martin Luther died of natural causes.
The Catholic Church did not ever murder anyone. Catholics have murdered people. But that is not the same as the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not approve of murder any more than you do. This is a slanderous statement.

Robert: Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position and it took the world just a few hundred years to bring it right back.
The sad things is most of the Protestant churches follow the same doctrinal falsehoods the Catholic Church conceived.

Bread From Heaven: By what authority do you say, “…and from a religious organization”? That is NOWHERE in scripture. So here you are with beliefs that are not in scripture and not historical. They are only a few decades old. This is just not convincing. The evidence is clear: The Catholic Church believes the same doctrine as the Christians believed in the first century.

5 Responses

  1. Catholisism is a Pervertion of Gods Justuce – Pope Alexzandria the 6
    Ill just Make up Had-oc Laws for myself Only – A Preist with 5 Childern. O! But BFTU will say He was just a bad Cathilic and the Chruch is stain free. Your Top Leader Sleeps around has 5 childern out of wed-lock. And this doesnt Reflect on the Church. Its really hard to Belive a Church that is SO dishonest. Then Lies about thier dishonesty. Sounds SO Roman!

    • I don’t understand your first sentence. Are you using an online translator? But I will make a stab at what I think you may have meant.

      1. Please give evidence of how Catholicism is a pervertion of God’s Justice? Otherwise it is just a slanderous statement that you make.

      2. Yes, Pope Alexander was one of the immoral Popes. It is right in the Catholic Encyclopedia. There is no cover up. What he lived was not advocated or taught by the Catholic Church. Therefore, he was a bad Catholic/a bad Christian. Every religion has bad representatives within. Even your church. The Catholic Faith is infallible and stain free. And many sinful Catholics certainly do reflect badly on the Catholic Church and open her up to ridicule. But, If you were Satan wouldn’t this be an excellent way to try to overthrow the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Why they put up with Pope Alex I do not know. It must have been a very trying time for faithful Christians. And remember, there were NO Protestants at this time, so this is part of your Christian History too.

      3. A priest with 5 children is not necessarily sinful. First of all because in some priests are married in rites other than the Roman Rite. Some priests in the Roman Rite also have children because they were Protestant pastors who were married with children who converted to the Catholic Church and were ordained to the priesthood in the Catholic Church. We also have had two priests at my parish with children. One was divorced by his wife and entered the priesthood. Another’s wife died. He was already a deacon and went on after her death to be ordained to the priesthood. So, just because a priest has children DOES NOT MEAN he broke his vows and yet evil minds will jump to this conclusion.

      4. You accuse us of being dishonest and lying about this dishonesty but give no reason for this accusation. This is the sin of slander.

  2. Funny how you cut and paste this part of our conversation and left out most of what I posted about the Catholic Church’s incorrect doctrine about how to pray.

    The authority of this statement comes from Jesus personally.

    What more is needed.

    Then to ask where does the Bible say it is forbidden to pray other ways is simply mind boggling.

    What about Jesus stating “Do it this way” is not clear?

    BTW – What is the existing evidence the Catholic Church is Christ’s church, other than what the Church claims?

  3. Robert: Funny how you cut and paste this part of our conversation and left out most of what I posted about the Catholic Church’s incorrect doctrine about how to pray.

    BFHU: Wow Robert, what are you talking about? I did not cut and paste. Your whole comment is here, interspersed with my responses. What is it you thought I left out. This is a response to ONE of your comments. Not all of them.

    The evidence that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus is:
    1. She is the ONLY Christian Church in existence for nearly 2000 years;ever since Jesus founded it.

    2. She can trace all the popes in a continuous line back to Peter.

    3. She teaches today what she taught in the first century. Protestant teaching is nowhere to be found in the first century except in some tenants of heretical sects. But even good Protestants would reject many other tenants of these sects.

    4. Jesus promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church and they haven’t.

    5. Nothing the Catholic Church teaches contradicts anything in Scripture. Her teachings only contradict the heretical teaching of the Protestant Rebellion. Protestantism has only been in existence for 500 years.

  4. Robert… If you want to get into the nitty-gritty of that statement, really BFHU is right.
    The Greek uses the term ‘houtos’ (HOO-tohs), translated as ‘in this manner, in this way.’ There was an entirely different Greek term for doing something EXACTLY the same way. He might have said something like “Pray these words” or something similar.
    What he is referring to is to ‘pray in this manner,’ not to pray the exact same prayer every single time.
    As a matter of fact, he is pulling from a Jewish tradition; when he says this, he speaks as a rabbi. He is giving his disciples a prayer FORM to follow, with some statements in that very prayer from prior Jewish literature (though they had never been combined this way before). Most all rabbis back then had specific prayer forms that could be recognized by anyone who heard them. Christ wanted to give his to his disciples.
    Jesus Christ prayed other prayers in other ways. John 17 is an example of one of the most beautiful prayers in the Bible.
    He prays three separate times in Matt. 26, which look nothing like the Lord’s prayer (except for the “your will be done” statement). (This prayer is echoed in Luke 22:42.) Also, in Acts 1:24, the disciples pray, asking the LORD for a new disciple, and it looks nothing like the LORD’s Prayer.
    Just a few things to notice.

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