Jesus IS Our Model

Jesus LA cathedralWOW: I am a CHRISTIAN.

BFHU: Me too. We, Catholics, too.

WOW: That’s what they were first called in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and that is what Peter said he was proud to be called (1 Pe 4:16). I’m not sure why everyone insists on calling themselves by any other title, other than referring to the only name given under heaven that can save you (Act 4:12).

BFHU: “Catholic” comes from the Greek word kataholos meaning universal. The Christian Church has been called “The Catholic Church” at least since 110 AD. We know this from a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch:

“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 Ignatius of Antioch; 110 A.D. ).

There is nothing is this quote that indicates St. Ignatius is coining a new phrase but just the contrary, he is clarifying where one can reliably find Jesus Christ, valid Eucharist, and the authentic CATHOLIC CHURCH.

WOW: I have one question for everybody: At what point did Jesus Christ stop being the way, truth, life, and the one to whom we look for guidance?

BFHU:….UHMMMM….BEATS ME…..We beleive Christ is all of the above.

WOW:At what point did His life stop being the model for us?

BFHU:Who are you referring to? He is our model.

WOW:Read the gospels and Acts, the story of the first church, Please!!!

BFHU:We in the Catholic Church have been reading and hearing the Gospels  and the rest of the Bible, every Sunday for 2000 years. Who exactly is it that you are so sure have never read them?

WOW:Did Christ or the Apostles: Teach us to talk to Mary or to other people to pray for us after there bodies had experienced the first death?

BFHU:Where did He say it is forbidden?

WOW:Didn’t Christ teach us to pray saying “Our Father…” (Matt 6:9)? Read 1 Thess, 1 Cor 15, Rev 20 Also please don’t pray to angels, they are servants of God, messengers, they are not your mediator to God, and neither are people.

BFHU:We don’t pray TO Angels. We pray for their intercessory prayer. Ditto for the Saints in Heaven.

WOW: Christ is!! only Christ!!!
BFHU:Christ is….what…exactly….?

WOW: Read Hebrews. Did Christ or the Apostles:  Teach us about a place (purgatory) where we go when we die that we can be liberated from if we died in unbelief or deserving condemnation?

BFHU:We don’t believe that Purgatory is for unbelievers or those who are condemned to Hell. We do believe that unbelievers who, through no fault of their own were not Christian, can be saved through God’s mercy. We are judged based on what we knew and how we responded to that knowledge. No one will go to Hell because they were ignorant of Christ. ie. babies who die at birth, or through abortion, the Indians on the North American Continent before the advent of Christianity, or those before the death of Jesus. All of these will be judged by God based on what we knew and how we responded to God.

WOW: There are 2 types of people who die. Saved in Christ, dead apart from Christ. The saved will rise at His coming to life, the dead will rise to be judged after the 1000 year reign, their works will not save them and they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read the entire New Testament

BFHU:There are two types of people….but NOT as defined above. Those who go to Purgatory will have been judged to be worthy of Heaven once they are purified in Purgatory.

WOW:– Did Jesus Teach us to set up a system of priests to which we must confess to for forgiveness of sin? Ok, so yes it’s Ok to share sin with our brother, it’s good to open ourselves up like that, but a lot of people think that you have to tell the priest or it doesn’t count. Christ is our High Priest. Read Hebrews.

BFHU:Where is Scripture does it say what you assert? In the OT there were ministerial priests and the priesthood of all the believers. So also in the Church. Jesus certainly did set up confession in

Jn 20:19-2319On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Here we see Jesus annointed ONLY the disciples, the first priests and bishops of the Christian Church, with a special dispensation of the Holy Spirit. He gave them authority to forgive or not forgive  sin. The only way to do this would be if they heard confession audibly. And we know historically that this was done since the earliest era of the Church.

WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us that the communion supper should be imagined as real human flesh and blood?

BFHU: Right here in John 6
John 6: 47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48″I am the bread of life 49″Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50″This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

51″I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55″For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

56″He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

57″As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

58″This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

WOW:Remember Christ said His words are spirit (i.e. spiritually symbolic and important), the spirit gives life Jn 6:63.

BFHU Exactly, but the Spirit is in NO WAY just a symbol. That which is spiritual is an unseen reality. It is in NO WAY equivalent to a symbol.

WOW:We eat Christ spiritually, not physically like cannibals.

BFHU True that it is not cannibalistic. But neither is is symbolic. That would be impossible. In the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke, to symbolically “eat the flesh” or “drink the blood” of someone meant to persecute and assault him. Did you know that there are several places in the Bible where “eating flesh and drinking blood” is used in a symbolic or metaphorical way? Lets take a look at what this phrase means when it is used metaphorically.

Psalm 27:2 When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, when my enemies and my foes attack me…”
Micah 3:2-3 you who hate good and love evil;…who eat my people’s flesh…
Rev 17: 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Rev. 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

So, we see that when “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” is used metaphorically or symbolically in the Bible it means destruction and murder. And it is still true today. If you got a letter that said someone wanted “to eat your flesh and drink your blood” you would take it as an evil threat of some kind and not an invitation to loving communion. Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 but no one would know just what He had in mind until the Last Supper. Communion in His body and blood is literal but not cannibalistic. Jesus feeds us spiritually with Bread from Heaven. Only the faithful stayed with him. Only faith helps us believe Him.

WOW: He is the bread from heaven. Spiritually. Remember, many of His disciples left Him that day because they thought He was saying to literally eat His body. Jn 6:66

BFHU Yes, many left Him BECAUSE THEY KNEW HE WAS SPEAKING LITERALLY AND NOT SPIRITUALLY OR SYMBOLICALLY. Did you know that in the Greek, when people began to question His seeming cannibalism, he switched from a general word for “eat” to a word that means “chew” or “gnaw.” Jesus did not try to explain in any way that he was not speaking literally.

WOW:Where did Jesus Teach us to erect statues of His mom and make beaded necklaces to hold and pray to His mom with? Teach us to erect statues of dead people, great servants of God or not, and put them in our churches?

BFHUBut where in Scripture is it forbidden? Statues and pictures were used to remind thousands of generations of Christians, unable to read, about the stories and people of the Bible, as well as heroes of the faith. That is a very good thing and still a wonderful tradition in our churches. There is nothing scripturally wrong with it.

WOW: Is Peter really the Rock upon whom the church is founded, or is Christ the eternal Rock whom Peter confessed, the real foundation?

BFHU Both. There is no denying that Jesus said to Peter
” Rock, upon this Rock I will build my Church”

WOW: Peter is not strong enough to be the foundation of the Church of Christ, only Christ is!!!

BFHUNot by himself, but supported by Jesus he can do all things, in Christ.

WOW: We all represent Christ here!! Christ in us is the true Rock of the Church.

BFHU That is true in one way. But it does not refute the Truth that Jesus founded a Church and He founded it upon Peter and gave him and his successors the Keys of the Kingdom to bind and loose. (a Hebrew idiom that means to rule)

WOW: Where did Jesus Teach us to believe that Mary never sinned and has already ascended to heaven, making her equal to Jesus Christ?

BFHU Mary is not equal to Jesus. We believe in the Trinity. Mary is fully human and not divine. She is human in exactly the same way as Adam and Eve were in the fullness and sinlessness of humanity. Adam and Eve sinned. Mary by the graces and power of God, not her own strength, did not sin. Gabriel addresses her as FULL OF GRACE. This is her title. If one is FULL of grace there is no room for sin.

WOW: Christ is the only one who is sinless!!

BFHUNo. Many humans may have a fallen nature but are not guilty of sin. Innocent babies and children who have not reached the age of accountablility. Nevertheless, they all need a savior. As did Mary. She was saved from a fallen nature, before she sinned .

WOW: We all await the resurrection, He is the firstfruits. You deny the grace of God when you say that Jesus couldn’t be born by a woman, a normal human like you and me, yes a servant of God, but human, with sin, dead, alive in the spirit, yes, but powerless to save you.

BFHU: God could have been born by any woman He chose. But why not create a pure vessel to reside in for nine months and to be your mother?

WOW: Read Acts. Baptism is a symbolic act by a conscious choice, by a repentant person to turn from sin and choose Christ for salvation. That’s what Baptism is. A baby can’t do that. A baby can’t repent. A baby doesn’t know what sin is. You can splash all the water on their head that you want, but don’t call it what it isn’t. It’s not baptism. Jesus got baptized when he was 30.

BFHU Please see my post Infant Baptism You make many assertions in your comments about baptism. Please back them up with scripture. I believe that what you have said above are Protestant Traditions about Baptism. Nowhere are they asserted in Sacred Scripture.

WOW: I know these aren’t all the teachings and maybe you’ll say they aren’t right, and maybe you don’t practice them, but you are still supporting them. And I know also that many Protestant churces are full of idolatrous worship and bad doctrine. If you look up the true doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, you will find these and many others. If these teachings aren’t found in the Scriptures, even in the Apocrypha which I enjoy, good Jewish history, then where are they from? Man? You can try to support these things with interpretation from the Scripture but in the end, they just aren’t there and you are left standing on the teachings of deceived men.

BFHU We accept and believe in the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture. BUT…it must be interpreted. We have historical, 2000 year-old, interpretations to draw upon. Protestant interpretations are only about 500 years old or less. I will go with the ancient faith, thank you.

WOW: The Bible is the only objective (unbiased) source we have to know that what we teach is the truth. If man’s teaching can’t be found in the Scriptures, then how can we know it’s true? Jesus taught the Law and the Prophets, the Scriptures. That’s what we have to teach today, the Scriptures. Don’t you want to know that you know the truth? for sure?

BFHU I do want the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. I have examined the scriptures and the historical claims of the Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church. I did not want to be Catholic but I had no Choice when I examined the competing claims or the Protestants and the Catholics. You might want to read my Conversion Story

WOW: Please, read the Scriptures.

BFHUAs you may have seen from my Conversion Story, I have certainly done this extensively.

WOW: You must worship in spirit and truth. The apostles didn’t even imagine the things that the Catholic church is doing.

BFHU How can you KNOW what the apostles imagined? John clearly says that the world could not contain all the books if they were to be written about everything Jesus did. John 21:25

WOW: Turn from idolatry. Repent. Turn to the Lord, Jesus Christ.

BFHU I know you mean well.

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