holy Family

Joan: When tradition is contrary to the scriptures I choose the scriptures.

BFHU: We both choose Scripture. Whether you realize it or not, you are, in addition to choosing Scripture, choosing your interpretation or an interpretation of Scripture you have been taught. I am choosing the interpretation that has been held for 2000 years. It is also the interpretation of the Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ Himself, upon Peter and the Apostles. Our Apostolic Teaching (or SACRED TRADITION) is not contrary to Scripture at any point.

Joan:2 different scriptures say that Mary & Joseph did not have sexual relations until after the baby was born.

BFHU:There is no scripture that says Mary was a virgin until AFTER the baby was born. You have just broken the rule about not adding to Scripture. The way you interpret this is not wrong but there is Biblical precedence for interpreting until as follows:

Your interpretation of the UNTIL in:

And knew her not until she had brought forth her son and He called His name Jesus.’

to mean that Joseph and Mary had children after Jesus was born; would then mean we  HAVE to interpret the following verses like this:

As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child until the day of her death.2 Samuel 6:23

Interpretation: Using your hermenutic this would have to mean that Michal DID HAVE A CHILD AFTER HER DEATH.

In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away. Psalm 71:7

Interpretation: At the end of the world, the moon will be taken away and righteousness and peace will no longer shine forth.

For He must reign, until He has put all enemies under his feet. I Corinthians 15:25

Interpretation: Once Christ has defeated His enemies, He will no longer reign supreme.

Lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the world. Matthew 28:20

Interpretation: God is with us always, but at the end of the world He will no longer be with us.

I am sure you would agree that the Catholic way of interpreting until would be more appropriate in all of the above verses. And based on historical evidence the Catholic interpretation of until in Matthew 1:25 is also more appropriate.

Joan:Jesus called Mary woman because she is the mother of Jesus & not of God. He is both God & man but He always called his mother “woman.”

Jesus is God as you say. But, He is also fully man. Mary gave birth to Jesus. She did not give birth only to a human person. Jesus was God/Man; fully both at the same time. Since Jesus was God Mary is the mother of God. Not because she created God or preexisted Jesus but b/c she was His mother.

Jesus addresses Mary as woman, not our of disrespect since that would be a sin against honoring father and mother, but because he was highlighting her role as the Second Eve. Whereas the 1st Eve sinned the 2nd Eve (Mary) was sinless.

Joan:I will have to seek the source but it is said that Jesus asked His disciple to take care of Mary because the brothers were not yet believers. I have never bothered to look that up.

That is a very common Protestant INTERPRETATION in a futile attempt to rebut the Catholic contention that Jesus disrespected his siblings by giving His mother to St. John; but you will not find that explanation anywhere in Scripture.

Joan:A previous marriage & children is mighty big news. It is incredible that it wouldn’t even be hinted at.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic that Joseph had other children. This explanation is the earliest commentary on the brothers of Jesus. But in the 4th century St. Jerome pointed out that the word brother could denote a sibling or other close relationship. As it still does today in English. We use “brothers and sister” all the time and do not mean literal siblings.

Joan:Also if Mary was so sacred that she could not have other children of her own it doesn’t make sense to me that she would be given a husband that did.

Mary could have chosen to have children. But, Mary took a vow of virginity. Joseph was betrothed to her as a brother/husband to be her protector. Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit who conceived in her Jesus. If you were Joseph would you enter in to the place where God the Holy Spirit entered? Where God the Son dwelt for 9 months?

Joan:There is a scripture that says to not be unequally yoked. It sure makes sense if having other children would pollute her the to have a polluted husband is what she got. It doesn’t compute.

Yes, Joseph was not sinless. But he was a godly man. Mary was a Godly woman and both were devout Jews.But, I have never heard the admonition “not to be unequally yoked” to refer to the level of sinfulness. If every husband and wife had to be equal in sin and holiness there wouldn’t be too many marriages. Beside how would this even be determined?

4 Responses

  1. I’m too busy to read this right now. Will write back within a few days.I doubt that I will be convinced.I doubt that there is anything new.This is to let you know that I am not ignoring you.You are nice enough to write, I can be nice enough to answer. 

  2. I have written on this subject before.
    I look at it from the Orthodox Tradition and beliefs. The Council of Ephesus declared Mary to be the Mother of God, because of many “wherefores”, there must be a therefore. Therefore Mary the Theotokos IS the Mother of God.

    According to the most ancient beliefs of Orthodox Christianity, Mary was chosen from all eternity to be the Mother of the Savior, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Most High. She was a Virgin before His Conception. She was a Virgin during her pregnancy and His birth in a cave in Bethlehem. She remained a Virgin throughout her life on earth.
    She is the Mother of God. She is the Mother of the Church. She is the Second Eve.

    All of you who view most icons of the Blessed Virgin will see three stars on the image: one on each shoulder and one on her forehead. These represent the three seasons of her Virginity: before Christ’s Conception, during His birth, and forever after.

    The fundamentalists and protestants who deny Mary her role in Christianity and her role in the salvation of humankind are really missing the boat. Even the Moslems have more love and respect for the Blessed Virgin than do these so called Christians. In the Koran she is spoken of as Blessed among women, and a Virgin. It speaks of the Virginal Conception and birth of Christ the Messiah, just as it is written in the New Testament.

    I resent the protestants and fundamentalists constantly directing their vehemence and ignorance at the Church of Rome. Do they not know that the True Church came from Jerusalem to Antioch, to Alexandria, to Rome? Then to Constantinople. The real Church did not fall out of the sky to some American bible preacher during the 1800’s, and suddenly the Truth came to light. The Church came through Christ and the Holy Spirit to the Mother of God, the Apostles and the Disciples on the day of Pentecost and was spread by those same People throughout Asia, Africa and Europe in the very first centuries of the Christian era.

    These anti-Catholic nay-Sayers need to read the accounts of the first seven Councils of the Church, and they need to read the writings of the desert Fathers and the theologians of the early Church. They need to read and realize that everything they attack in the Catholic Church comes from the Orthodox Church. They need to read and realize that the Church of Rome was as Orthodox as the churches of the east until the major break between the two back in 1054 AD. Today those things which caused the separation of east and west are considered very minor and have no bearing on the Catholic-Orthodox True Faith. The Orthodox-Catholic Church is One. Our traditions, cultures, languages, liturgies, rituals differ, but our beliefs are One. Jerusalem is the Mother Church of many daughters: Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, Aksum, Yerevan, Kiev, Sofia, etc., etc. All of these Churches proclaim that Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God, and eternally a Virgin.

    We worship and adore the Triune Majesty of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God, and we respect She, who is more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare to the Seraphim. She, who without stain gave birth to God the Word. Truly the Theotokos, we magnify Her!

    • Beautifully written! Oh, that we would all be one as our Lord would have us to be, then unbelievers would have an easier time seeing Christ’s love in us and for us.

    • Amen Dominic! Unification would be so beautiful! I find it interesting that you say what caused the schism was actually minor. I have always wondered what really went on with that……

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