The Communion of the Saints


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JOE: The excuse that “praying to”Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false. No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on. In fact it is prohibited to speak to spirit as per leviticus. Besides this, Jesus is the intercessor. Jesus is God so the excuse of askin someone “closer” to God than us is blown right out of the water! You are not God and therefore cannot say for a fact who is in heaven so praying to anyone but the Father, son or holy spirit is IDOLATRY! Jesus tells you plainly to repent or else he will remove your candlestick. Worshipping the Queen of Heaven is ancient babylonian paganism and addressed in Jeremiah. May all you catholics repent of this wickedness, please!!!

BFHU: Dear Joe, I find it amusing that you think that:

 “praying to Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false.

But, it happens to be the truth. You, of course, are free to reject the truth about our Catholic Faith but you should be honest that you just reject it and not that it is weak and false. How can it be “weak” if it is true and how do you prove it is false? You also say,

No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on.

OK, but why does this matter? The Trinity is not defined or mentioned anywhere in the Bible either. Neither is the Incarnation of Jesus, therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses see themselves as perfectly Biblical. But, of even more significance is the fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible either. It is a new doctrine, invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago.

You are correct that contacting the dead for OCCULT reasons, seeking hidden knowledge, is forbidden as DIVINIATION. But asking for intercessory prayer is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible. Neither is it forbidden to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us who are alive in Heaven or on Earth. And asking for prayer does not equal divination. Protestants jump to the erroneous conclusion that “Praying to the Saints” equals divination without ever exploring what we actually mean by it. They assume it MUST be DIVINATION, and we all know what happens when we assume…..

Also, I am afraid that you are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the intercessor, if you mean, only He can intercede on our behalf because that is not found anywhere in the Bible either. Because Protestants only “pray” to God it seems to them that asking for our brothers and sisters in Heaven to intercede for us (for short pray for us), gets confused in their minds with idolatry. But asking for intercessory prayer is not idolatry anymore than it is Divination. We are exhorted to:

James 5:16 …pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

It doesn’t say, pray for one another until death do you part. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Was that idolatry? Are prayer chains some form of idolatry?

In order for a person to be declared to be in Heaven and a Saint, a supernatural miracle must occur as a direct result of someone asking the “would be saint” to pray for them after they have died….the miracle has to occur after the would-be Saint is dead. These miracles are then, thoroughly investigated by scientists, medical doctors, theologians, etc and finally by the Pope. The Catholic Church does not want to look foolish by declaring something to be a miracle that was faked. This miracle is taken to prove God’s power through the prayers of the Saint. The Saint prays but God acts.

We do not believe the Saints are closer to God than Jesus but closer than many(most) of us still here in this life.

We do not worship the Queen of Heaven. That would be idolatry and heretical. We merely honor her as the Mother of Our LORD and the Queen Mother of Heaven.

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6 Responses

  1. The Blessed Virgin Mary was declared to be the Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. It was a Council of the whole Church, East and West. There were no protestants until a thousand years later. And one can say that this was the very fundamental Church. The Council Fathers laid out the beliefs of the Church and formulating the doctrines which were there from the beginning. Anyone not accepting the first seven Councils of the Church, or any group not accepting them are not a church. So Your arguments against Catholic and Orthodox Doctrine are false and at best very weak. The Truths of Christian Doctrine are within the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. And this includes the Bible as it is known today, as it too was formulated buy the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

  2. BFH: “But, of even more significance is the fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible either.”

    Below, Saint Paul warns against doctrines that haven’t been written by
    the Apostles, and instructs us to avoid what they haven’t specifically
    written, otherwise it would create improper favor among Christians.
    St. Paul is making it clear that Christ Jesus is the universal
    (catholic) cornerstone by which all are held together, as opposed to
    specific Apostles. Saint Paul says to equally learn from all the
    Apostles, but following only one will divide the Church among us. As a
    matter of fact, following one Apostle over another is our human
    nature, rather than our calling as Christians. Saint Paul goes on to
    say further than disciples have been called to each of the Apostles,
    this would mean that other Apostles held Apostolic authority and
    succession of the Keys, to take on disciples to become apostles. Saint
    Paul goes on to say “all are yours” regardless of the Apostle from
    which you received the Word. As with Matthew the tax collector and
    Zenas the lawyer, we see the well educated who knew how to read and
    write, utilizing written Scripture, on an accelerated level unlike
    ever seen in the oral tradition of the Old Testament, this doesn’t
    mean that oral canons were obsolete, just not as prevalent.

    Acts 18:24
    [ Apollos Speaks Boldly in Ephesus ] Now a Jew named Apollos, a native
    of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in
    the Scriptures.

    Acts 19:1
    [ Paul in Ephesus ] And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth,
    Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he
    found some disciples.

    1 Corinthians 1:12
    What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I
    follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”

    1 Corinthians 3:4
    For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,”
    are you not being merely human?

    1 Corinthians 3:5
    What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you
    believed, as the Lord assigned to each.

    1 Corinthians 3:6
    I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

    1 Corinthians 3:22
    whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the
    present or the future—all are yours,

    1 Corinthians 4:6
    I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your
    benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is
    written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against
    another.

    Titus 3:13
    Do your best to speed Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way; see
    that they lack nothing.

    Exodus 31:18
    And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

    Deuteronomy 9:10
    And the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words that the Lord had spoken with you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly.

    Deuteronomy 28:58
    “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,

    Deuteronomy 29:20
    The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven.

    Deuteronomy 30:10
    when you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    Joshua 10:13
    And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

    Joshua 23:6
    Therefore, be very strong to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, turning aside from it neither to the right hand nor to the left,

    2 Samuel 1:18
    and he said it should be taught to the people of Judah; behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar. He said:

    1 Kings 2:3
    and keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,

    1 Kings 11:41
    Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the Book of the Acts of Solomon?

    1 Kings 14:19
    [ The Death of Jeroboam ] Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

    1 Kings 14:29
    Now the rest of the acts of Rehoboam and all that he did, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah?

    1 Kings 15:7
    The rest of the acts of Abijam and all that he did, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah? And there was war between Abijam and Jeroboam.

    1 Kings 15:23
    Now the rest of all the acts of Asa, all his might, and all that he did, and the cities that he built, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah? But in his old age he was diseased in his feet.

    1 Kings 15:31
    Now the rest of the acts of Nadab and all that he did, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?

    1 Kings 16:5
    Now the rest of the acts of Baasha and what he did, and his might, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?

    Ezra 4:7
    [ The Letter to King Artaxerxes ] In the days of Artaxerxes, Bishlam and Mithredath and Tabeel and the rest of their associates wrote to Artaxerxes king of Persia. The letter was written in Aramaic and translated.

    Ezra 6:2
    And in Ecbatana, the citadel that is in the province of Media, a scroll was found on which this was written: “A record.

    Nehemiah 7:5
    [ Lists of Returned Exiles ] Then my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles and the officials and the people to be enrolled by genealogy. And I found the book of the genealogy of those who came up at the first, and I found written in it:

    Nehemiah 13:1
    [ Nehemiah’s Final Reforms ] On that day they read from the Book of Moses in the hearing of the people. And in it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever enter the assembly of God,

    Esther 3:12
    Then the king’s scribes were summoned on the thirteenth day of the first month, and an edict, according to all that Haman commanded, was written to the king’s satraps and to the governors over all the provinces and to the officials of all the peoples, to every province in its own script and every people in its own language. It was written in the name of King Ahasuerus and sealed with the king’s signet ring.

    Esther 8:9
    The king’s scribes were summoned at that time, in the third month, which is the month of Sivan, on the twenty-third day. And an edict was written, according to all that Mordecai commanded concerning the Jews, to the satraps and the governors and the officials of the provinces from India to Ethiopia, 127 provinces, to each province in its own script and to each people in its own language, and also to the Jews in their script and their language.

    Job 19:23
    “Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!

    Psalm 40:7
    Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me:

    Psalm 139:16
    Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

    Proverbs 22:20
    Have I not written for you thirty sayings of counsel and knowledge,

    Isaiah 65:6
    Behold, it is written before me: “I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will indeed repay into their lap

    Jeremiah 25:13
    I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations.

    Jeremiah 36:6
    so you are to go, and on a day of fasting in the hearing of all the people in the Lord’s house you shall read the words of the Lord from the scroll that you have written at my dictation. You shall read them also in the hearing of all the men of Judah who come out of their cities.

    Jeremiah 51:60
    Jeremiah wrote in a book all the disaster that should come upon Babylon, all these words that are written concerning Babylon.

    Ezekiel 2:10
    And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe.

    Daniel 12:1
    [ The Time of the End ] “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

    Malachi 3:16
    [ The Book of Remembrance ] Then those who feared the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the Lord and esteemed his name.

    Matthew 4:4
    But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

    Matthew 4:10
    Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

    Mark 1:2 As
    it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way,

    Mark 9:13
    But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him.”

    Mark 11:17
    And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

    Mark 14:27
    And Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’

    Luke 4:10
    for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’

    Luke 4:17
    And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

    John 2:17
    His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

    John 12:16
    His disciples did not understand these things at first, but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things had been written about him and had been done to him.

    John 19:20
    Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek.

    John 20:31
    but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    John 21:24
    This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

    Acts 1:20
    “For it is written in the Book of Psalms, “‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and “‘Let another take his office.’

    Acts 13:33
    this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’

    Acts 15:15
    And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

    Acts 24:14
    But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

    Romans 1:17
    For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    Romans 9:33
    as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

    Romans 10:15
    And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

    Romans 11:8
    as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

    Romans 12:19
    Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

    Romans 14:11
    for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

    Romans 15:15
    But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God

    Romans 15:21
    but as it is written, “Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand.”

    1 Corinthians 1:19
    For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

    1 Corinthians 1:31
    so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

    1 Corinthians 9:10
    Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.

    1 Corinthians 10:11
    Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

    1 Corinthians 15:45
    Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    2 Corinthians 3:2
    You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all.

    2 Corinthians 4:13
    Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we also believe, and so we also speak,

    Galatians 3:10
    [ The Righteous Shall Live by Faith ] For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

    Ephesians 3:3
    how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

    Hebrews 13:22
    [ Final Greetings ] I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.

    1 Peter 5:12
    [ Final Greetings ] By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it.

    3 John 1:9
    I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.

    Revelation 1:3
    Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

    Revelation 5:1
    [ The Scroll and the Lamb ] Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

    Revelation 13:8
    and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

    Revelation 20:15
    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:27
    But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    • Daniel you wrote

      Saint Paul warns against
      doctrines that haven’t been
      written by the Apostles, and instructs us to avoid what they haven’t specifically written, otherwise it would create improper favor among
      Christians.

      people who declare Mary to be Mother of God they were not apostles so where do they get this revelations?

  3. Wow! Daniel! That is a lot of verses. But, which verse there actually says that we should not believe ANYTHING regarding our Faith unless it is clearly stated in scripture? I am pretty sure it is not there which makes Sola Scriptura a doctrine invented and not based on scripture. I am not asking for verses that expound the value and necessity of scripture. We absolutely believe that already.

    We believe Sacred Scripture and nothing in Catholic Doctrine may contradict any Scripture because the Deposit of the Faith taught to the Apostles by Jesus and passed down to us by them, to their successors, is ONE FAITH found in both the Oral Teachings of the Apostles and the Written Teachings of the Apostles.

    Catholics are not bound by Sola Scriptura the way Protestants have bound themselves to it, except why they give themselves free reign regarding such doctrines as Sola Scriptura, Once Saved Always Saved, the Rapture, etc. But for Catholics, rest assured that, Scripture is still normative, foundational and inerrant.

    • calling mary God’s mother was also invented I believe

      • The phrase “Mother of God” is not found in Scripture. It like the Trinity, and Incarnation was coined to express in a pithy way Christian Truth.

        Mother of God was specifically coined to express both the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus since these were major causes of heresy in the first few centuries of Christianity. It NEVER meant that Mary pre-existed God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. It meant simply, Jesus is God and Mary was His Mother.

        Many Protestants are not clear that fetus Jesus, baby Jesus, and adult Jesus was fully God and fully man. Therefore, Mary was His mother.

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