Was Jesus Really Born on December 25th?


Unknown
Q. Was Jesus really born on December 25th? I have heard he was born in the spring.

A. ARGUMENT FOR DECEMBER BIRTHDATE OF JESUS

 God has allowed His Church to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ on the right day or very close to it. This is not mandatory or a matter of faith, but why doubt it without very good reason?

The argument for assigning late December as the rightful date of the birth of Yeshua is based on the time Zacharias was told that Elizabeth would conceive a child.

Osservatore Romano: December 24,1998

“December 25 is an historical date,” Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University and a consultant to two Vatican Congregations, has stressed. In an article in the Osservatore Romano on December 24, he wrote: “December 25 is explained as the ‘Christianization’ of a pagan feast, ‘birth of the Sol Invictus’; or as the symmetrical balance, an aesthetic balance between the winter solstice (Dec. 21-22) and the spring equinox (March 23-24).

But a discovery of recent years has shed definitive light on the date of the Lord’s birth. As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect [Ed. based , in part, on Parchment Number 321 — 4 Q 321 — of the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls,], and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times.

Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendant, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1, 5), was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated ‘John’s conception’ on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24. The ‘six months’ after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner’s birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history.”

Therefore, If Zacharias served during the end of September and Elizabeth conceived shortly thereafter, we can place the date of Jesus’ birth during the month of Tevet, in late December. The explanation is as follows:


1. Jesus’ cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived just after Yom Kippur (late Sept) and born 9 months later in (late June).

* John’s father (Zacharias) was a Levite of the house of Abijah who was assigned to serve in the temple during the 8th and 34 weeks of the year. If the Angel’s announcement to Zechariah was the 34th week that would have been during the High Holiday of Yom Kippur.
* It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty (Luke 1:23-4), and Yom Kippur. Thus, John would have been born around (late June).

2. Jesus was conceived in (late March), six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36) near Passover, and born 9 months later during late December.

Luke 1:36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

3. Circumstantial Evidences:

Church history, since the time of the late first century, has attested to a late December birth.

Hippolytus, in the second century AD, argued that this was Christ’s birthday.

In the fourth century,

John Chrysostom (347-407) argued that December 25th was the correct date. Chrysostom taught that Zechariah received the message about John’s birth on the Day of Atonement and John the Baptist was born sometime in June or July, and the birth of Jesus took place six months later, in late December (or early January). There was never a question about the period of Jesus’ birth either in the East or in the West; only in the recent years this date was challenged.
Early Jewish sources suggest that the sheep around Bethlehem were outside year-round. In the normal traffic of shepherds they move around and come near Bethlehem from November to March of the year. But then these were a special class of Levitical shepherds who kept the sacrificial lambs. They do not move around because they supply the lambs for daily sacrifice from whom people bought their approved lambs, which are blemishless. The fact that the Angels announced the arrival of the perfect sacrificial lamb to these shepherds indicates this. The climate near Bethlehem is more like Southern California, it is after all Mediterranian. It is not a Canadian or Russian climate.

Alfred Edersheim, a Messianic Jew, wrote, “There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable.”

Edersheim notes that Megillot Taanit states that the 9th of Tevet is considered the day of Christ’s birth, and that puts the birth of Yeshua sometime during late December.

Summary:
If Zacharias served during Yom Kippur and Elizabeth conceived shortly thereafter, we can place the date of Jesus’ birth during the month of Tevet, in late December.

Both views can be seen HERE

Protestants Say: “The Catholic Church Did Not Exist Until 400 A.D.”


Main Entrance to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Main Entrance to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Donald: How can you say that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ Himself? When googling “Origin of The Catholic Church, you learn that The Catholic Church was established between 300 to 400 years after Jesus walked on the Earth.

BFHU: Well, as we shall see Google is not infallible. The years 325- 400 AD or there about, is often cited b/c Emperor Constantine decreed peace and legality for the Catholic Church. For most of the preceding years since the Crucifixion of Jesus, the Church had been desperately persecuted. Therefore, Christians were pretty much in hiding and there were no ecumenical councils until Nicaea. But the Christian Catholic Church was alive and well despite the persecutions.

Jesus Himself said He would found a church.

Mt 16:17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The Catholic Church of the Holy Sepulchre is built over both the rock of Calvary and the Tomb of Jesus. Below is an aerial view of the domes of the Church.
view
The Church of the Holy Sepulcher has been destroyed and rebuilt several times through the centuries. The church we see today was constructed by the Crusaders.The small grey dome covers the rock of Calvary, and the large dome covers the site of Jesus’ burial and resurrection.

Here is the floor plan of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre . Calvary is just to the right of the main entrance to the Church and the Tomb is marked in orange.
Sepulcher_plan
So, the Catholic Church built a church on the Holy Site of Jesus’ death and resurrection. In fact the Catholic Church has built churches on all of the Holy sites of Israel.

Also, historically this church that Jesus founded, has always been called Catholic Here are some quotes from the early Church Fathers: The Early Church Fathers on The Church

Ignatius of Antioch-[A.D. 110]

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp-[A.D. 110]

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus [A.D. 189]

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian [A.D.200]

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (The Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])


Cyprian [A.D. 251]

The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251]).

Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).

For an interesting thought experiment—>Which Church Did Jesus Start?

What Church Manual Dates from the Time of the Apostles?


Early Church Beliefs in the Eucharist


On THE FEAST OF THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS


Q. Did the Christians in the first three centuries believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

A. Yes. They certainly did!

110 AD–St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the Apostle John wrote in :

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6,2)

“I desire the Bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ…and for drink I desire His Blood, which is love incorruptible.” (Letter to the Romans 7,3)

150 AD–St Justin Martyr wrote to the Emperor of Rome around :

“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and the Blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66,20 )

180 ADSt. Irenaeus, was the bishop of Lyons, France and a student of St. Polycarp who sat at the feet of the Apostle John. St. Irenaeus wrote around :

“He (Jesus) has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be His own Blood, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, He has established as His own Body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.” (Against Heresies, 5,2,2 )

350 AD St Cyril of Jerusalem, in a teaching to those coming into the Church wrote in :

Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the Body and Blood of Christ.” (Catechetical Lectures:(Mystagogic 4) 22,6 )

Thus we see that the Christian Church, at the very beginning of its history taught and believed that the bread and wine of communion was transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ in fulfillment of Jesus’ discourse on the Bread From Heaven in John 6 and the plain sense of His words at the institution of Communion at the Last Supper. “This is My Body” This is My Blood”

This is the same Church that Jesus founded on Peter and the Apostles.

This is the same church that Jesus promised the Gates of Hell would never overcome.

This is the same Church that chose the books of the Bible out of all the other books floating around the ancient world, at the end of the fourth century.

This is the same Church that was called Catholic at least as early as 110 AD.

This is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Ancient, but ever young.

Who Decided Which Books Should be in the Bible?



Q. Who Decided Which Books Should be in the Bible?

A. The Sacred Scriptures used by the Jews at the time of Christ were simply adopted by the Church and became what is known as the Old Testament. The books of the New Testament were not finalized until the fourth century by Catholic Councils and Catholic popes.

Before the 4th Century there were many worthy and some unworthy “gospels” and “letters” floating around the ancient world. Christian liturgies used what they had available.

The four Gospels, as we have them today were clearly recognized as inspired at an early date as were many of Paul’s letters. But about many other writings there was disagreement. For instance, some people thought Hebrews, Jude, Revelation and 2 Peter were not inspired. Others were very certain that the books of Shepherd of Hermas, Gospels of Peter and Thomas, Letter of Barnabas and Letter of Clement were inspired.

Starting around the year of 175 A.D. Various lists of inspired books of the New Testament were made by Bishops and saints.For instance:

Origen: Gospels, the thirteen Pauline Epistles, Acts, Apocalypse, I Peter, and I John. The contested writings were Hebrews, II Peter, II and III John, James, Jude, Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, and probably the Gospel of the Hebrews.

EusebiusBishop of Cæsarea in Palestine

Four Gospels, thirteen Epistles of St. Paul, Hebrews, Acts, I Peter, I John, and Apocalypse.

A second category is composed contested writings; these in turn are of the superior and inferior sort. The better ones are:

Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, II Peter, II and III John; these, like Origen, Eusebius wished to be admitted to the Canon, but was forced to record their uncertain status;

The inferior sort were Barnabas, the Didache, Gospel of the Hebrews, the Acts of Paul, the Shepherd, the Apocalypse of Peter.

This uncertainty about the inspiration of Christian writings lasted for nearly four centuries. But the Faith of the Apostles, as taught to them by Jesus Christ, continued to evangelize the world since it was not dependent upon or derived only from scripture.

Canonization of Scripture

By the time the fourth century of Christianity was nearing completion,

Pope Damasus in 382 A.D. prompted by the Council of Rome, wrote a decree listing the 73 Old and New Testament books of the Bible.

At the Council of Hippo, in North Africa, 393 A.D. the same 73 Books of the Old and New Testament were approved or canonized.

Again at the the Council of Carthage, (North Africa) 397 A.D. approved the same 73 books of sacred scripture that the Catholic Church uses today.

Finally, in 405 A.D. Pope St. Innocent I approved the same 73 books of the canon and closed the canon of the Bible.

Up until the close of the canon there was much debate among faithful Catholics. That is probably why it took four official decisions to close the canon: Two Councils and Two papal decisions.

For a discussion of the books of the OT removed by Martin Luther click HERE , Sola Scriptura, and Martin Luther on debt to Catholic Church, here.

Early Church Beliefs In the Eucharist



Q. Did the Christians in the first three centuries believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

A. Yes. They certainly did!

110 AD–St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the Apostle John wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6,2)

“I desire the Bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ…and for drink I desire His Blood, which is love incorruptible.” (Letter to the Romans 7,3)

150 AD–St Justin Martyr wrote to the Emperor of Rome :

“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and the Blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66,20 )

180 ADSt. Irenaeus, was the bishop of Lyons, France and a student of St. Polycarp who sat at the feet of the Apostle John. St. Irenaeus wrote :

“He (Jesus) has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be His own Blood, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, He has established as His own Body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.” (Against Heresies, 5,2,2 )

350 AD St Cyril of Jerusalem, in a teaching to those coming into the Church wrote in:

Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the Body and Blood of Christ.” (Catechetical Lectures:(Mystagogic 4) 22,6 )

Thus we see that the Christian Church, at the very beginning of its history taught and believed that the bread and wine of communion was transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ in fulfillment of Jesus’ discourse on the Bread From Heaven in John 6 and the plain sense of His words at the institution of Communion at the Last Supper. “This is My Body” This is My Blood”

This is the same Church that Jesus founded on Peter and the Apostles.

This is the same church that Jesus promised the Gates of Hell would never overcome.

This is the same Church that chose the books of the Bible out of all the other books floating around the ancient world, at the end of the fourth century.

This is the same Church that was called Catholic at least as early as 110 AD.

This is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Ancient, but ever young.

What Did the FATHERS of the Church REALLY Say About Abortion?


I have excepted for brevity, the most illuminating passages. You can see longer passages which place these more in context at Catholic Answers.<—Click the link.

Didache “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” 70 AD “you shall not murder a child by abortion.

Letter of Barnabas 100 AD Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion

Plea for the Christians, 176-177 A.D.
women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God.

Clement of Alexandria 190 AD women who, in order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs … abort at the same time their human feelings…Abortion is killing human life that is under God’s care…

Tertullian 200 AD we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb,…To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing…life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception;

Surgical Instruments for abortion

“Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument, which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open; it is further furnished with an annular blade, by means of which the limbs [of the child] within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care; its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery.

“There is also [another instrument in the shape of] a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is managed in this furtive robbery of life: They give it, from its infanticide function, the name of embruosphaktes, [meaning] “the slayer of the infant,” which of course was alive. . . .

“[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive” (The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]).

Synod of Elvira (Spain, 306 A.D.)
“If a woman becomes pregnant by committing adultery, while her husband is absent, and after the act she destroys the child, it is proper to keep her from communion until death, because she has doubled her crime.”

Council of Ancyra 314 AD “Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived… a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance before re-admittance to communion],”

Basil the Great (329-379 AD) She who has deliberately destroyed a fetus has to pay the penalty of murder. The hairsplitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us….

Jerome (347-420 A.D) Some
, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of child murder”

John Chrysostom 391 AD For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also… and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder..”

Ambrose of Milan (339 to 397 A.D.) “The poor expose their children, the rich kill the fruit of their own bodies in the womb

Does the Catholic Church Still Believe in Purgatory?



Q. Does the Catholic Church Still Believe in Purgatory?

A. Yes

Q. What is Purgatory?

A. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church

THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

I Peter 1:7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

St. Gregory the Great: “As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.( Dial. 4,39:PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.)

Mt. 12:31 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture:

Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

II Macc 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

St. John Chrysostom: “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.“, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5:PG 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

Job 1:5 When these celebrations ended—sometimes after several days—Job would purify his children. He would get up early in the morning and offer a burnt offering for each of them. For Job said to himself, “Perhaps my children have sinned and have cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular practice.

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Where in Scripture Do Catholics get Body and Blood?



Q. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is actually bodily present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist?

A. In John 6, After demonstrating His power to feed 5,000 people with a few loaves and fishes, Jesus tells his listeners seven times that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life. The Jewish leaders and even some of Jesus’ followers rejected this teaching as preposterous and left him at this time, precisely because they understood Him to be speaking literally. One year later, Jesus instituted Eucharistic Communion (Mt. 26:26) saying of the bread, “This is my body” and also of the cup, “This is my blood.” From the beginning of Christianity, Church Fathers describe the mystery of the miraculous transformation of the Eucharistic meal into Christ’s Presence under the appearance of bread and wine.

Q. But how do we know for sure Jesus meant this literally?

A. We can ask ourselves, “What did the earliest Christians believe about communion?” The writings of the early Church Fathers tell us what these first century Christians believed about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. In 110 A.D. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught the Christian faith by the apostle John, wrote about the heretics of his day:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness raised up again.” Letter to the Smyrneans 6,2

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How Can You Believe in Purgatory?


Q. I believe that you are truly reaching for truth where none lies. Please read the Greek Interlinear translation of Luke 23:42-43 And he said to Jesus “Be reminded of me whenever you may be coming into the kingdom of you’ 43 And He said to him “Amen to you I am saying today with me you shall be in the park (paradise)” Jesus is not a liar and this may simply be some aspect of the bible that we do not understand how, but need to trust that because Jesus said it that it is true.

A. I have a Greek Interlinear. The fact is Jesus and the Thief did NOT go to Heaven on Friday, as many Protestants contend to try to discredit the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory. However, perhaps they went to the blessed part of Sheol so that Jesus could preach the Gospel to them, on Friday. Or perhaps, it could be read as “Today I tell you, you will be with me in Paradise.” And even if the Thief did go straight to Heaven I have read Catholic Commentary to the effect that his suffering on the cross may have sufficed, to purify his soul.

Q. Hebrews 12:14 asks us to ‘pursue’ peace and holiness.

14. Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord

Are we to aim or pursue after purgatory?

A. No, we are not to pursue Purgatory but pursue holiness in this life in order to avoid Purgatory altogether or lessen our need for purification after this life.

Q. Or does this verse truly mean that we are to live pure and holy lives on earth to the best of our ability?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. Does God not know the hearts of men? Isn’t God able to discern whether we are lover’s of God or the world? We are told by the Bible to strive for holiness. This is an action, something that WE are to DO. Not something that happens to us!

A. Yes God knows us and we are to Do all we can to be holy. But if at the end of our lives we are not bad enough for Hell but not pure enough for Heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

Q.Once again you quote an action that we need to do.

2 Cor. 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

This is the dedication of ourselves to Christ and living righteously. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from DEAD works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened…..if they FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put HIM to an open shame.

A. Agreed, it is something WE must DO after we are saved.

Q. You truly must read the whole text not just one line. This verse is referencing how we LOVE others, and how our Heavenly Father expects us to love others as he has loved us.

Matthew 5:48 “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as you Father in heaven is perfect ”

A. That is your interpretation, but I should think PERFECTION in loving others would in fact be sign of purification from all sin.

Q. Matthew 12:36 references the judgment we will all face for our utterances. It has no reference to purification, but to judgment day.

6 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

A. I agree. I used this verse to point out the Jesus’ death does NOT remove all judgment of our souls.

Q. Man must do his part which is to accept Christ as our Savior. Our lives should reflect that relationship which means we do our best to be obedient to God. (don’t; fornicate, get drunk, lie, steal, worship idols, envy, be prideful, etc…..).

A. Absolutely.

Q. God does not expect us to be perfect, but we become worthy of his all sufficient grace by the blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son CLEANSES us from ALL sin…..If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-2 And if anyone sins, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Hebrews 10:26 For is we sin WILLFULLY after we have received the knowledge of truth, there NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE FOR SINS. (God is pretty clear about this)

Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

A. I agree of course with Scripture as does the Catholic Church. You are right, God does not expect us to be perfect in order to access His grace and salvation. But we must be perfect in order to enter into His presence in Heaven.

We INTERPRET these scriptures differently. Protestants generally interpret these all literally (except Hebrews 10:26) to prove the absence of Purgatory but they rarely interpret the Hebrews passage literally because that would mean that ANY sin no matter how small, since they believe all sin is equal, would cause a loss of salvation.

So, just as you do not interpret Hebrews 10:26 LITERALLY we interpret the other passages to be referring to the ETERNAL consequences of sin ONLY and not to the temporal consequences of sin.And we base this on Historical Christianity.

This PROVES to be true since repentance and acceptance of the forgiveness of Jesus DOES NOT magically make all the temporal consequences of sin disappear, like an STD or out of wedlock pregnancy etc. We just cannot see the all the spiritual consequences of sin so easily.

Q. Can you honestly tell me that you believe in the depth of your soul that; our Father in Heaven, the most supreme being of all time, stepped off his thrown to become the lowest of men, a baby, lived a sinless life, suffered as we suffer through trials and tribulations, KNOWINGLY accepted his fate to be ridiculed, spit on, mocked, have the flesh torn from his body, carry his own cross while he is half dead, hung to die a thief’s death, mocked while dying for those laughing at him, and willingly giving up his life so that WE may live, conquered death through the resurrection, fellowshipped with his disciples after his death and ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father. Can you honestly tell me that His sacrifice was not enough? Your answer is either yes or no. If your answer still remains yes, my heart aches for you, and I pray that God will have mercy on you for trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Christ, God’s only Son. God’s word never ever in it’s entirety states that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient. The Bible in fact states exactly the opposite.

A. Well,…Yes, because that is what the Christian Church has believed since the time of the disciples. And this verse:

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what islacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, still for the sake of his body, which is the church.

But, of course, God could have decided to save us in the way the Protestant Churches teach. Christ’s death COULD have sufficed completely, in the way Protestants believe and reject the necessity of absolute, real, material, holiness and perfection and purification…GOD COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO DO IT THAT WAY. And we admit that He certainly could have chosen to let us into Heaven putrid with sin but accept Jesus’ covering. But scripture would have been written very differently then, in that case.

It is not that we trample the scrifice underfoot. We simply submit to what the Church has always taught and believed.

I entered the Catholic Church because I could not find a way to believe that Martin Luther, and John Calvin could possibly have more authority and a more accurate understanding of what the apostles taught after 1500 years had passed than the Early Church Fathers.

I said to myself that I would find out what the Chruch believed in the very earliest centuries. If it was Protestant beliefs I found I would stay Protestant but if it was Catholic, if they believed Catholic doctrines, foreign to what Protestants believed , I would have to seriously consider whether the Catholic Church was in fact the Church founded by Jesus Christ HIMSELF.