Some Early Fathers did NOT Believe in the Immaculate Conception


Mariano: My question as to how you know that doctrines that are particular to Roman Catholicism predated the canonized New Testament. Let us consider the “Sinlessness of Mary/Immaculate Conception of Mary.”

The following is a partial list of those who considered Jesus alone to be sinless, and or considered Mary to have sinned, and or considered her to not have had an immaculate conception:
The New Testament, Pope Leo I, Pope Galatius, Pope Gregory I, Pope Innocent III, Clemet of Alexandria, Ambrose, Bernard, Aquinas, Augustine, Antonitus, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Chrysostom, Origen, Basil, Cyril of Alexandria, Anselm, Peter Lombard, John of Damascus, Bonaventure.

BFHU: Your list is interesting but I will need documentation of exactly what was said and where so that I can read the context. I know for a fact that the New Testament does not state anywhere that Mary sinned or that Jesus was the only sinless person. So, this brings the whole list into question for me.

I know Protestants interpret by way of eisegesis, that the NT says Mary sinned along with the rest of us. Adam and Eve were sinless and could have remained immaculate. But they fell into sin.

On another point: your list brings something up that is not widely understood. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was not defined and officially made an article of faith until the 19th Century. It was believed and taught in the Church, even Luther believed in Mary’s Immaculate conception. So, my understanding is, that it was generally accepted. However, because it had not been dogmatically defined, theologians were still permitted to question, explore, and discuss it. I would guess that these are the sort of writings you may be referring to above.

For instance, before the canon of the OT and NT was closed in the 5th Century, St. Jerome argued vehemently against the inclusion of the deuterocanonical books of the OT. However, once the pope closed the canon, and against St. Jerome’s advice, included the deuterocanonicals in the OT, St. Jerome, a faithful son of the Church accepted the decision and translated the OT into Latin, deuterocanonicals and all.

Similar agreements and disagreements, discussions and questions abounded regarding the exact way to understand the Trinity, before the Doctrine of the Trinity was dogmatically defined at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. That doesn’t make the doctrine wrong. Before a doctrine is dogma disagreement is acceptable. After a doctrine is dogma disagreement is heresy.

I have said this elsewhere but it fits in this context and it really is helpful. Ever since Adam & Eve God ordained marriage  between man & woman. Ok, historically and even today in some cultures there may be multiple wives. But marriage has never been between people of the same sex. So the Church has never dogmatically defined  marriage as between one man and one woman. But in the near future this may indeed need to be done because our modern culture is becoming confused about the issue and confusing Catholics about the isssue. So, if the Catholic Church dogmatically defined marriage as between a man and woman in 2020, that would not mean at all that that is the date it was first believed.  But no doubt in 2075 people will accuse the Catholic Church of inventing the dogma that marriage is only between a man and a woman in the year 2020.

Brothers and Sisters of Jesus



Q. Since Mary had other children, the brothers of Jesus, would they not be sinless also?

A. The brothers and sisters of Jesus are kinsmen of Jesus or else Joseph’s children by previous marriage.
They are not full siblings of Jesus. They are either cousins or step-siblings. Mary gave birth to only one child and remained a perpetual virgin. Even Martin Luther and John Calvin attest to this fact.

Even if Mary and Joseph had other children together, they would not have been sinless since Joseph was not sinless.

Q. Why was Joseph not sinless?

A. Joseph was not preserved from the stain of original sin by the power of God—Mary was.

Q. But, Mary came from the seed of David who himself was a sinner and murderer.

A. Mary was preserved from the sin of Adam
and her ancestor David by the power and miraculous intervention of God the Father at the first moment of her conception. She was free from all sin and a sin nature. Remember, both  Adam and Eve were created immaculate also. They were not doomed to sin like all of us. They lost this great grace, the fullness of human perfection, when they chose to rebel against their God. So, they were unable to pass on the fullness of grace to their offspring.

Dogma of the Immaculate Conception



Jeronie: I appreciate your response. However, I have some comments as well.
First, the Bible prophesied that the Messiah shall come from the line of David,
which means Mary could have been a distant relative of David. Now take note that
David has once been an adulterer and murderer, in short he has sinned.
Therefore, if Mary came from the line of David then perhaps she too is a sinner
as we all have inherited the sins of our fathers.

BFHU And she certainly would have been a sinner if God had not saved her from inheriting the fallen human nature of Adam at her conception. It is only by this saving before sin and graces all through her life that she was able to live a sinless life. It was all by the power and grace of God and her cooperation with the graces she received.

Another thing is that the
dogma of “Immaculate Conception” was solemnized by Pope Pius IX on December 8,
1854. My question is, why was it declared that time only? Isn’t it too late to
declare such doctrine you suppose is so important to you? Where was that dogma
based?


It was not first invented at that time as many anti-Catholics want to claim. It was always believed as historical fact. It was solemnly declared to be dogma because the errors of the “Reformation” had begun to confuse the faithful to such an extent that the declaration needed to be clearly and finally proclaimed. Doctrine is not proclaimed dogmatically until confusion becomes widespread.

For instance, it has always been believed that marriage is between one man and one woman. We have no dogma on this but it is foreseeable that in the not too distant future we may need to make a dogmatic declaration of this doctrine because of the confusion our culture is injecting into the minds and hearts of the faithful. The date of that dogmatic declaration, if it becomes necessary, will not be the date it was first believed that marriage is between a man and a woman, but the date it was dogmatically defined. There is a big difference.

The Bible? I don’t think so. If Mary is sinless then she should have not
died a natural death,


The Church does not declare that Mary died only that God brought her to Heaven at the end of her earthly life. Mary may have died, in union and imitation of her divine son, despite the fact that she was not under the curse of death due to her sinlessness. Or, she skipped death and was assumed directly into Heaven b/c of her sinlessness.

again no where in the Scripture does it account that Mary
ascended to heaven like Jesus.

This is true but Scripture does not contain all the information of everything that happened at that time. See John 21 where the apostle clearly states this fact.

There are only two accounts in the Bible about
ascension, that of Jesus and Enoch.


You forgot Elijah. But the Church makes a distinction between Jesus and others. Only Jesus ascended into Heaven by His own power but Enoch, Elijah and Mary were “assumed” into Heaven by the power of God.

It is not a question of whether God will use a sinful woman or an immaculate one

True. He has used more sinful people than sinless people down through history.

but the question is if
God will use a sinner who is willing to bend to God’s will or a sinner who so much pride in his/her heart. Remember that God has used the greatest sinners in the history of the earth who were transformed by His saving grace.

Agreed.

Paul was a Christian persecutor but was used mightily by God for Evangelization. David was a murderer and an adulterer but he was called as the Bible says, “a man close to God’s own heart.

Very true. But let me say that it is our Tradition (teaching of the Apostles) that Mary was immaculate. It is your tradition that Mary sinned. But there is no Bible verse that explicitly says “Mary was a sinner or that she sinned.” It is merely your Protestant culture that has steeped you in the idea that Mary was a sinner. So, since neither of us has explicit scripture passages that clearly teach our view we need to see what Christians in the earliest days of the apostles and shortly thereafter believed. Catholics have believed in the immaculate conception for 2000 years. Protestants have believed Mary was a sinner for only 500 years. I would like to know upon what concrete authority Protestants dropped belief in the immaculate conception?—Even Luther believed it.

Other Post on the Immaculate Conception –>All Have Sinned and Immaculate Conception

Where Does Scripture Say Mary Was Sinless?



Jeronie Frias: “Jesus and Mary were sinless…” whose teaching is this that Mary is sinless?

BFHU: This is taught by the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

JF:There’s no verse anywhere else in the Scriptures that says Mary is sinless.

Are you aware that you are clinging to a Protestant tradition? There is no verse in Sacred Scripture that says all religious truth must be found explicitly in Scripture.
So we all believe in things that are not in Scripture. Your belief in Sola Scriptura was begun about 500 years ago. And it never would have taken hold if it was not begun after the printing press was invented which made Bibles more available and reading became more common. Before that most people were dependant upon the oral teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

However the Catholic Church has believed in the sinlessness of Mary since the beginning. Even Martin Luther believed in Mary’s sinlessness see my post HERE

JF: In fact she callled out to her God, her ‘Savior’.

And He certainly was her savior click HERE

JF:Why do you consider Mary as sinless?

Please see this post HERE

JF:Why do you equate Mary to Jesus?

We absolutely do not equate Mary with or to Jesus. Jesus is Divine. Mary is a mere human. Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature, Jesus and Mary were also conceived and born without a sin nature. Adam and Eve sinned. Jesus and Mary did not sin. That does not make her divine. She is fully human exactly as God intended all mankind to be. But due to the sin of our first parents, mankind is fallen.

JF:(Jesus) has shed His blood for man’s salvation? Certainly it’s not Mary.

Not sure what you mean by, Certainly it’s not Mary.
If you mean “Mary did not shed her blood for man’s salvation” …that is true of course
.

Why Did Mary Offer a Sin Offering?



Q. Mary, like every other Jew of her time, was born under law. In other words, under the old covenant, she had to obey the 10 Commandments and all the ceremonial laws given by God through Moses. For example, we see her observing the pregnancy and childbirth laws here:

(Luke 2:22-24) When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord She must also bring to the priest a lamb for a burnt offering and a dove for a sin offering. The priest will then offer them to the Lord to make atonement for her.

A. The above quotation of Luke is inaccurate Here is what the NIV actually says:

When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord 24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.

Q. Now, if Mary was always pure and sinless, why did she go through the purification period? Why did she offer a sacrifice for sin to the priest? Why would the priest need to make atonement for her to cleanse her?

Leviticus 12:1-8 The LORD said to Moses, ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period… . 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering

A. These are very good and very legitimate questions. Of course, being ceremonially unclean is not equivalent to being sinful. The laws here are going to apply to everyone. They would not have written these laws with one immaculate virgin in mind. But scripture does seem to indicate in Luke, that Mary offered a sin offering.

Good point about Mary’s sin offering. But the Catholic reply would be that she offered the sin offering out of humility and to avoid scandal and to fulfill all righteousness, (Mt. 3) just as her Divine Son was baptized in the Jordan by John. John’s baptism was for repentance and yet we both agree Jesus did not need to be baptized b/c He did not need to repent of any sin. And yet He submitted to baptism. And Mary offered the sin offering according to the Law. Both fulfilled all righteousness in humility.

Q. As we have seen, Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law. In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’s grace.

If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!

A. No, she did not achieve righteousness by the law. She was righteous from her conception by the power of God. And yes, she kept the entire law.

Q. So, Mary did not need “the righteousness from God, apart from the law” that “comes through faith in Jesus Christ”? In other words, she did not need Jesus to die for her sins because she had none — she was not a sinner!

A. She certainly did need Jesus to save her. True, she was not a sinner but she certainly DID have faith in Jesus Christ her Divine Son. She was the first believer. She was saved by Jesus from sin BEFORE she sinned by a unique grace of God Almighty. Surely God could do this if He wanted to do it. Just as Jesus’ death saves all people, even those who lived and died before His incarnation, so His salvation through His death and resurrection was applied to Mary before it actually happened in time.

Q. Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Even the most “insignificant” Christian is greater than the most prominent Old Testament prophet! To be made righteous by the blood of Christ, to be born again as a child of God, and to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, is far better than being a mighty Old Testament prophet who is not walking in the New Covenant.

A. And Our Blessed Mother would most definitely fall into this category. So, she too, as a Christian and in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

Q. Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”.

A. This must be referring to OT people. Because Jesus also was born of woman and yet we both agree He is the greatest of all.

Q. So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?

A. Because she is the mother of Our Lord and unlike Eve, she was perfectly obedient to God.

Q. I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all!

A. Jesus is exalted above all. We worship Him. We honor Mary for who she is we do not worship her.

Q. Jesus’ response when someone called Mary blessed: Luke 11:27,28 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it
.”

The woman in the crowd was impressed with Jesus’ teaching, but, she gave the glory to Mary. Jesus’ response did two things. It shifted the focus from one person—Mary—to ANYONE who hears the Word of God and obeys it. This, in turn, puts Mary on equal footing with anyone who hears the Word of God and obeys it.

A. True. And, of course, Mary also heard the word of God and obeyed it. All who do this are blessed just as Jesus said. This is true. I would submit that Jesus’ response did redirect the woman’s focus from honoring His mother to the necessity that this woman attend to her own salvation. But, it in no way indicates that Mary is thus equal in every way to any Christian who hears and obeys Jesus regardless of the perfection of their obedience. But she would be equal to any Christian who believed and obeyed perfectly.
In closing , I would like to say that you have submitted some very good and thoughtful questions. I have also submitted to you a different way to understand the same scriptures. I hope you can see that it is possible to interpret the same scriptures differently. This is the very reason there are over 40,000 different Protestant denominations.

The basic difference between Protestant interpretation of scripture and Catholic is that for us the Faith existed before the NT scriptures were written down. So the NT is a product of the Catholic Faith and is not contrary to any of our beliefs and doctrines.

For instance, no one in the Catholic Church sat down and read the Angelic salutation in Luke 1–“Hail Full of Grace..” thought it over and said, “I know, this must mean that Mary was sinless, immaculate from the first instance of her conception!”

If the Catholic Church had done that Protestant derision would be deserved. But no, that is not why we cite this verse. The Catholic Church has always believed in the immaculate conception of Mary. This was never seriously questioned until some time after the Protestant Reformation. (Even Luther believed in her immaculate conception.)We cite this verse in response to Protestant demands for scripture. And because we know that Protestants will only consider scripture Catholics give the scriptural evidence we have for our beliefs. Protestants will then often scoff because they think we derived our doctrine and dogma from what seems to them insubstantial scriptural evidence. But as I said above, our doctrines do not come out of scripture in the same way Protestants derive their doctrine. Our doctrine comes directly from the teaching of Jesus to the apostles to us.

On the other hand, Protestants, 1500 years later, read scriptures and then decide what is to be believed based on their own private interpretation.

By the way this is proscribed in

2 Peter 1:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

The reason I am Catholic is that for many scriptures there are more than one way to interpret them. I have decided that the oldest Church, the one that can trace her origin back to the apostles, founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, is the one church most likely to KNOW how the scriptures should be interpreted.

Protestant individuals, 1500 – 2000 years removed from the events in the NT, are pretty much on their own. Their hope is that the Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth but this has not been the case since the differences in Protestant interpretation has spawned thousands of different denominations in direct opposition to Jesus’ desire that we all be ONE.

Mary Was Human.



Below is a discussion based on a comment to Martin Luther & the Immaculate Conception

Comment: All honor and praise belong to Jesus and Jesus only.

Response: If you mean WORHIP, I agree we are to worship Jesus and not worship Mary. That would be idolotry and is condemned by the Catholic Church. Also, surely you did not mean that our worship belongs to Jesus and only Jesus because then we would be leaving out the Father and the Holy Spirit, the first and third persons of the Holy Trinity.

But I would have to disagree about “honor and praise belong to Jesus and Jesus only”, for several reasons.

First: We are to honor our mother and father. So honoring someone other that Jesus is actually commanded in Sacred Scripture. (Exodus 20 )

Second: Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments and honored His mother therefore in imitation of Jesus we too honor His mother.

Third: She is also our spiritual mother and therefore also we have another reason to honor her.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Fourth: We praise many things without worshiping them. So this seems acceptable. I can’t think of anywhere is scripture where it says we can only praise God or Jesus. Could you please support this statement from scripture?

Comment: Mary knew very well that she too had to give honor and praise to her Lord Jesus even though God had found favor in her to give birth to our Lord Jesus. She was just as human as we are and in need of a Savior as she plainly states it in the Magnificat.

Response: You are absolutely correct. Mary gave birth to her God and her Savior. He was her Divine Son.

Comment: We cannot go through her to God because Jesus said no can go to the Father except through Him.

Response: The context of the verse is not talking about prayer or intercession but about attaining Heaven

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Prayer to Mary is intercessory prayer which is encouraged. See the post: Prayer to Saints

Comment: He also said there is no other name under heaven in which salvation comes.

Response:

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Salvation does come from Jesus but by the sovriegn choice of God that salvation, in Christ, comes to us through the assent and cooperation of Mary. She provided the flesh which the second person of the Blessed Trinity assumed to His Divine nature. The God-Man was born of woman. God did not have to do it this way. He could have just created a body to join to his divine nature but He didn’t. He chose to involve Our Blessed Mother. So, we say salvation comes to us from Christ through Mary. She gave birth to our Salvation.


Comment: As for praying to Mary, people should not be be doing this because she is dead. There is nothing she can do for any of us because Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that the dead know nothing.

Response: Only bodies die. Souls are eternal. But we believe that Mary is alive body and soul in Heaven through a special grace of her Divine Son.

Martin Luther On Mary’s Immaculate Conception



Q. What is the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
A. It is the Dogma of the Catholic Church that Mary was conceived without sin and remained sinless throughout her whole life.

The Catholic Church has always believed that Mary, just like Adam and Eve, was conceived without a fallen nature and unlike our first parents, she resisted temptation to sin by the grace of God, throughout her whole life.

Interestingly, Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation believed in Mary’s Immaculate Conception.

Luther’s words follow:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.
(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer,

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
-Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

Immaculate Conception



Q. Does the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception refer to Jesus or Mary?

A. This doctrine refers to Mary. She was concieved in the normal way by her parents.
It was immaculate because Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin passed on to the human race from Adam and Eve. Just as God created Adam and Eve without the stain of original sin He caused Mary to be conceived without sin just like them. But unlike our first parents, Mary, with the grace of God, resisted the temptation to sin and remained sinless throughout her life.

Q. Then why does Mary refer to “God my savior”(Lk. 1:47)? If she never sinned she wouldn’t need a savior. Mary doesn’t seem to know she is sinless.

A. Mary called God her savior for the simple reason that she did need a savior to save her from the stain of original sin. God saved Mary at her conception, before she ever sinned. Just like a person can be saved from quicksand after falling in or saved from the quicksand before stepping into it.

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Can Humans be Sinless?



Bread From Heaven: Protestants forget that both Adam and Eve were created without sin. Most of the Angels did not sin and people in Heaven do not sin and that does not make any of them God. So sinlessness is a human trait that God originally bestowed upon human beings. It was also His desire that they remain sinless. Mary is human. Her sinlessness makes her special but not divine in any way. And she is the mother of our Savior she is not a savior.

Comment: The point not taken here is that ALL of the beings you reference, Adam/Eve, angels, people in heaven have the ability to choose sin or not.

Response: That is true, they have free will and so are able to choose to sin or not. But 2/3’s of the angels chose NOT TO SIN. So they are still sinless. The people in Heaven choose NOT TO SIN. So, they are now sinless. Adam & Eve were created without a fallen nature and were therefore NOT DESTINED to sin like the rest of us. Mary also was created without a sin nature and likewise able to choose not to sin by the grace of God. And she, unlike Adam and Eve resisted the temptation to sin her whole life.

Comment:Adam/Eve sinned, angels sinned against God’s will, people in heaven sinned while they were on this earth.
Response: OK, Scripture tells us that Adam, Eve, and some of the Angels sinned. But where in Scripture does it say that Mary sinned? What sin did she commit?

Comment: Mary sinned for she was human.

Response: Where in Scripture does it say that God created human beings to BE SINFUL? Part of their basic nature? Normally human beings die as well as sin. But we were not created originally to DIE. Death entered in after the Fall. Therefore, God did not create us with Death as a required attribute of our human nature. Some people in the OT did not die–Enoch & Elijah. Just because, by the power of God they escaped the experience of death does not somehow make them anything other than human.

Comment: Sinlessness is a trait of God not of humanity,

Response: God is sinless, that is true. But where does it say that ONLY God is sinless? What about the angels who remained loyal to God. They are sinless but they are not Gods.

Comment: You stated how God would have wanted a perfect vessel for his son to be born. If you continue with this logic, than how would God want Mary conceived? Into sinfull parents and then her vessel would not have been pure. And what about her grandparents? And their parents and you can see how this need for perfection grows exponentially which means somewhere in history there is an entire race of sinlesss beings.

Response: We do not teach that Mary’s parent’s were sinless. Mary was a creature. Jesus was God Incarnate. For the God incarnate to dwell in perfect purity in Mary’s womb is more fitting than any necessity for Mary conceived without sin, to dwell in perfect purity. If Mary’s parents had been sinless then she would have received her perfected human nature from them but she received it directly from her Heavenly Father.

Comment: Mary was endowed with grace by God, because she was good, not perfect.

Response: Where might this be found in Scripture? We of course believe Mary was endowed with grace that removed the inherited sin nature and chose to be obedient to God her whole life.

Mary is Not Godly or Holy???!!!


From a Comment originally on Scripture Disproves Purgatory?

Q. Mary was a sinner just like you and me.

A. How do you KNOW? Adam and Eve were created sinless. That is how we were all supposed to be. Mary was fully human exactly the way God intended.  God intended and created human beings to BE sinless.

Q. Mary is by no means Godly or Holy. The Immaculate Conception if a farce, unbiblical and elevates Mary to a level that even she would call blasphemy.

A. Mary was not Godly or Holy? Why do you say this? Where in Scripture does it say “Mary sinned” or “Mary was sinful just like everyone else”? For that matter where on earth does it say Mary was not holy or Godly?

By what authority do you believe God could not have created Mary without a sin nature?
Bead From Heaven: I understand that from your perspective it seems like we belittle Christ’s sacrifice because of your theology. But, remember, your understanding of scripture is only 500 years old.

Comment: My understanding of scripture 500 years old. That is laughable. The Bible existed for centuries before the Catholic church hijacked it. My understanding of scripture is based on the gifts given to me by the Holy Spirit which I was baptized into through my loving comitted relationship to Christ.

Response: The Protestant sects believe in doctrines that are only 500 years old or less. In fact, some of them, like the end times rapture are only about 100 years old. That is what I meant. Our doctrines are nearly 2000 years old. Of course I realize the Bible is more than 500 years old. But Protestant doctrine is not. And who do you think had the Bible “before the Catholic Church hijacked it”?

Comment: Your “little sacrifice” mean absolutely nothing, nada, zero to an Almighty Holy God who offered up his one and only son for our sins. He is angered by your belief that you can even compete with HIS sacrifice.

Response: He probably would be angered if we were competing with His sacrifice. But, believe me we don’t compete with Him at all. In fact, we are able to do nothing apart from the empowering of Christ.

Comment: You may have your traditions which help you to feel more “religous”, but they do nothing to add to Christ’s sacrifice or to aid in your salvation. In fact they will aid in many Catholics damnation.

Response: Our Traditions are nothing more or less than the very teaching of the Apostles handed down to us orally at first and mostly written down in the first 800 years of Church history.

Comment: I have a complete understanding of Catholicism. I went to Catholic university, study theology there, and married a Catholic who has since left the church and has a fuller more complete relationship with Christ than he EVER had in the Catholic church. After reading the entire Bible for himself he is angry at the lies told him and how the R.C. has manipulated God’s word.

Response: Well, he is much more likely to have been told lies about the Catholic Faith than to have found that the Bible reveals lies in Catholic Doctrine. I am curious as to why you left the Church.

“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church – which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

-Archbishop Fulton Sheen

Comment: Your search for ‘truth’ does it extend past the media provided by Catholics?

Response: Yes. I spent40 years as a very devout Protestant. Suspicious of the Catholic Church and I was sola scriptura to the max.

Comment: How do you answer to the lies with which the Catholic church built is power? The Catholic church even admits to the numerous forgeries which were used to further the papacy! I believe that the Catholic church would NEVER have amounted to the power and world prestige that it has had it spread it’s blasphemous gospel honestly.

Response: I am afraid that someone has taught you lies about the Catholic Church. But, I am sure they were just trusting whoever taught them these lies.

Comment: Why make it a law to keep the Bible out of the lay peoples hands?

Response: The Church tried to prevent lay people from reading the Bible only at the time of the “Reformation” because she did not want her children to be carried away with the heresies spawned by Luther et. al. That was a very wise and reasonable response to the rebellion that began as a reformation. Other than that, the Church NEVER kept the Bible away from anyone. The Bible was even chained in the church to make it accessible to people. If it hadn’t been chained it would have been stolen b/c it was so valuable. I would recommend for you to read Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham

Comment: Why kill people who had Bibles?

Response: The Catholic Church never killed people b/c they had a Bible.

Comment: Why prevent the Bible from being translated into the language of the people who desired to read it?

Response: The Catholic Church translated the Bible into various languages long before Martin Luther , Wycliffe or Jan Hus were born.