Did Jesus Exist Before His Mother?


Jonah: If Mary was not the Queen of Heaven referred to in Jeremiah (because she was not in existence at the time), when did she begin to exist…at the time of Jesus??

Bread From Heaven: Mary began to exist about 15-16 years before the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. She began to exist at the time of her Immaculate Conception as a result of the union of her parents and God saving her from the stain of original sin.

Jonah: Does that mean that God the Father and all the old testament people pre-existed the Queen of Heaven?

Bread From Heaven: Yes, God the Father and all the Old Testament people absolutely existed before Mary, Queen of Heaven.

Jonah: King Jesus was around for eternity, just incarnated around 2012 years ago…so he pre-existed his own Queen Mother? How would you spin this one?

Bread From Heaven: Yes, Jesus the second person of the Trinity, is eternal and therefore existed before the mother of His Flesh. There was no Queen of Heaven before Mary’s Assumption into Heaven.

The Holy Trinity is Eternal. Human beings are created creatures. Once created, our souls are eternal even though our bodies die as a result of The Fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus came to enable our salvation and Eternal life in Heaven. If we reject Him we will have Eternal Hell.

To read the post that sparked these questions click here–>Mary, Queen of Heaven

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Mary Our Mother


Written circa 373 AD by St Ephrem the Syrian

No one quite knows, Lord, what to call Your Mother. Should we call her “Virgin”?
-but her giving birth is an established fact;
or ‘married woman”?
-but no man has known her. If your Mother’s case
is beyond comprehension, who can hope
to understand yours?

She alone is your Mother,
but she was your sister, she was your bride too
along with all chaste souls. You who are
your Mother’s beauty,
Yourself adorned her with everything!

She was, by her nature, your bride already
before you came; she conceived in a manner
quite beyond nature after you had come
O Holy One, and was a Virgin
when she gave birth to you in most holy fashion…

If she could carry you, it was because you,
the great mountain,
had lightened your weight; if she feeds you,
it is because
you had taken on hunger; if she gives you
her breast,
it is because you, of your own will, had thirsted;
if she fondles you,
You who are the fiery coal of mercy,
preserved her bosom unharmed.

Your mother is a cause for wonder;
the Lord entered into her
and became a servant; he who is the Word entered
-and became silent within her; thunder
entered her
-and made no sound; there entered the Shepherd
of all,
and in her he became the Lamb, bleating as
he comes forth.

Your Mother’s womb has reversed the roles;
the Establisher of all entered in his richness,
but came forth poor; the Exalted one entered her,
but came forth meek; the Splendorous one
entered her,
but came forth having put on a lowly hew.

The Mighty one entered, and put on insecurity
from her womb; the Provisioner of all entered
-and experienced hunger; he who gives drink to
all entered
-and experienced thirst: naked and stripped
there came forth from her he who clothes all!

Mary, Mother of God?



Q. Why do Catholics call Mary The Mother of God?

A. For the simple reason that Mary was the mother of Jesus and since Jesus was God we also say she was the Mother of God. Mary was chosen by God to give her flesh, in the incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. And since Jesus was born of woman as a baby who grew up just like all human babies He needed a Mother to care for Him. Mary was the Mother of Jesus, the God-Man. As she nursed and cared for her child she mothered Jesus in His totality. She did not mother only the flesh of Jesus, that would be absurd. Jesus was both fully Man and fully God and Mary was His mother–The Mother of God.

Q. But is this a wise title for Mary since it falsely gives the impression, perhaps, that Mary preexisted God?

A. Perhaps some will jump to the wrong conclusion at first. But, people of good will, will seek more understanding. The Catholic Church cannot stop teaching the truth just because some people might get the wrong impression.

Besides we know we are on safe ground because in Sacred Scripture Mary is called the mother of my Lord by Elizabeth in Luke 1:42-45. “Mother of my Lord” could just as easily be translated Mother of my God. But the Jews would not speak the name of God and substituted “Lord” for His name. But the meaning is exactly the same.

Also, in those same verses Elizabeth prophesies that all ages will call Mary blessed. But, most Protestant churches fail to fulfill this prophecy and do not refer to Mary as the Blessed Virgin Mary as we do in the Catholic Church. They do agree that Mary was blessed by God to bear the messiah in her womb, but they never call her Blessed.

The history of this title of our Blessed Virgin goes back to the first few centuries of the Church when a heresy arose that denied the humanity and the deity of Jesus. This title: Mary the Mother of God affirmed in a short and pithy way the doctrine of the Incarnation. The smallest child could teach and affirm this complex doctrine with those simple four words.

Mary the Mother Of God & the Reformers



Q. If the Catholic Church has such good reasons for calling Mary the Mother of God then why did the Protestants stop using this title?

A. It is not known when the Protestant churches dropped this title for Mary or by what authority they did so since all of the principle reformers vigorously affirmed and defended this doctrine.

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them…Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born in Bethlehem but of Him who, before, the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God” (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Souis, V7, P572)
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39)

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.)

God says . . . : “Mary’s Son is My only Son.” Thus Mary is the Mother of God.(Ibid.)

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother . . . She is the true mother of God and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.(On the Councils and the Church, 1539)

John Clavin: “I cannot be denied that God in Choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest
honor…Elizabeth calls mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvin Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, V. 45 p 348, 35)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she sould bring forth the Son of God.” (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639

How the Catholic Church is WRONG!


Paul:

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was. . .

1) born of an immaculate conception (i.e., born without sin) 1) God says in Rom. 3:23 and 5:12 that ALL are under the curse of sin. That “none [are] righteous” (Rom. 3:10.) The CC says that Mary was “preemptively” saved, i.e., saved before birth from sin, since she was to be chosen to carry the Word made flesh and that no sinner can give birth to a sinless child if we all fall under the curse thru conception. The only problem with this is GOD’S OWN WORDS make the CC’s dogma a lie (1 John 1:8, 10.) Mary even said in Luke 1:47 that she needed a savior. Only SINNERS need a SAVIOR.

BFHU: Romans 3:1010as it is written,”(A)THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Then what about Jesus? If you have one exception, why not two? But that is beside the point. This is a quote from Psalms where in Ch 52 where people ARE called RIGHTEOUS.

  1. Psalm 1:5
    Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
  2. Psalm 1:6
    For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,But the way of the wicked will perish.
  3. Psalm 5:12
    For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD,
  4. Psalm 11:3
    If the foundations are destroyed,What can the righteous do?”

  5. Psalm 11:5
    The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
  6. I could go on, but you get the idea.

So, your quotation is hyperbolic and not meant to be taken absolutely literally. Even Scripture calls some people RIGHTEOUS. This then does not present a problem for the doctrine that Jesus was righteous, and of course Mary also and many others as well. Click Here–> The Righteous. Noah, Abraham, Job,

Paul: 2) the mother of God–2) Technically, this is true, seeing as Jesus is God in the flesh and required a human woman to bring Him into the world. But since Jesus was since before the foundation of the world (Psa. 90:2, 93:2; 1 Pet. 1:20; John 8:58), it makes a weak reason for such a title. Also, Jesus Himself said who His mother would be considered as in Matt. 12:50.

BFHU: You do not understand the reason for the title: Mother of God. As you say it is a true title, since Jesus was God and Mary was His mother, she is therefore the Mother of God. This phrase was coined during a heresy that denied the divinity of Jesus. This became an easy way to declare the deity and the humanity of Jesus at the same time. THAT is the reason for the title. Amazingly sublime.

You might want to see that the Reformers defended this Marian title. Mother of God and the Reformers

Paul:  3) a perpetual virgin, never having been touched by her husband, Joseph (i.e., no sex) 3) Matt. 1:25 says that Joseph didn’t know (consumate his union) with Mary UNTIL after the birth of Jesus. The word “until” shows that Joseph obeyed God and waited so as not to touch Mary (have sex with her) because to do so would defile her womb and introduce the sin curse thru Joseph’s seed (sperm), thus contaminating the Child and, in essence, screwing up God’s plan for mankind’s redemption.

 BFHU: Mt. 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Your interpretation is certainly a possibility,  but it does not prove what you want it to prove because the word until does not always have to be interpreted the way you are interpreting it.

2 Samuel 6:23

23As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death.

The way you interpret this word this would have to mean that Michal did have a child after her death. Which we all know is impossible.

Job 27:5
“Far be it from me that I should declare you right;Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.

Does this mean that after death Job put away his integrity?

Psalm 72:7
In his days may the righteous flourish,And abundance of peace till the moon is no more.

Does this that when the moon is no more that the righteous, abundance and peace, will not flourish ?

I could go on…

You also might want to read what Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli thought about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Paul: 4) assumed into Heaven without dying- 4) Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of ANYONE being assumed into Heaven without dying, save only Elijah and Enoch. God even tells us what happens when we die in Ecc. 12:7. Only the spirit, or the Breath of Life, returns to God. Not the whole body.

BFHU: Exactly, there is precedence for people being assumed into Heaven, Enoch and Elijah. Mary is not the first. And the whole body will be resurrected at the end of time. This is what the creed means about the resurrection of the dead. The soul does not die but goes immediately to Judgment.