Catholics Are Just Wrong


imagesAman: It is still the pope that had the final word on which books made it. Which is the most distubing thing Ive learned in a while. In history, and the present, how good is the track record for cardinals, bishops and popes? There isnt enough room on this page to count all the scandals.

BFHU: Hmmmmm. You are right. It would be very disturbing to Sola Scriptura Protestants. Since you do not trust mere men…..but wait! All of the authors of all of the books of Sacred Scripture were mere men. Isn’t that disturbing to you as well? So, how could you trust Scripture to be TRUE since it is written by mere men who were also subject to sin?

Aman:I dont know about you but I dont trust a man, and I repeat a man, that surrounds himself with the luxuries and wealth of the world, wears red prada shoes, expensive jewelery,wears a hat that originally was designed for pagan leaders for worship to their fish god Dagon.Billions of dollars has been spent to build the worlds most lavish churches instead of using it feed and shelter the hungry and poor.

BFHU: Let me clear some things up for you. All the wealth at the Vatican and the museums and the beautiful Catholic churches around the world were donations by the faithful to offer things and build churches of great beauty. You know someone in scripture also complained about the expense “wasted” on Jesus. 

The Precious Ointment

Mark 14:While He was in Bethany at the home of Simon the leper, and reclining at the table, there came a woman with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume of pure nard; and she broke the vial and poured it over His head. But some were indignantly remarking to one another, “Why has this perfume been wasted? For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, (Nearly a year’s worth of wages) and the money given to the poor.” And they were scolding her. 6 But Jesus said, “Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me. For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.

Bishops hat

The hats worn by bishops is very odd. But they are to look like the flames of fire that fell on the apostles on Pentecost.

Aman: Pretty sure this is not what jesus had in mind. Tell me one story where Jesus put money or scripture in front of caring for others in need. Show me one description of jesus wearing expensive jewelery or expensive clothes. Think as if you were Jesus and then ask yourself if you would accept the corrupt nature of the Vatican and its hierarchy.

BFHU: The Popes personally do not desire to wear expensive anything. These things are given to the pope to honor the vicar of Christ on Earth. To honor Jesus through the man chosen as pope. And as we see above Jesus certainly accepted a gift of precious oil as the woman sought to honor Him. I think you are imposing your own opinion on Jesus rather than reading scripture  and letting it form your faith.

Aman:Why would the pope pray to the Madonna for protection and pray to statues instead of god???!! Might as well build a golden calf in the middle of St peters Square for people to worship as well. This is sounding familiar. God didnt like it the first time people prayed and worshiped to statues, what makes you think hes ok with that now?

BFHU: The pope and Catholics do not worship statues. You are mistaken because you are judging us based on your own bias. We believe in asking for intercessory prayer from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Unlike Protestants we know that those who died in Christ are alive in Heaven and we also ask for their prayers. That is all we are doing when we pray in front of a statue or picture of a Saint. And we know God is OK with that b/c He answers our prayers more quickly through His Saints. If it was not efficacious we would have stopped long ago.

Aman: Popes and priests cannot forgive you for your sins. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT!

BFHU: Where does it say this in Scripture? Wait there is something about this in scripture.

Mark 2:And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

How do you explain this verse where Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive or not forgive sin?

JOHN 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Honoring Mary Shattered by Luke 11.


Daniel:
Concerning Mary, Luke 11:27-28, tells us how Jesus felt about our exalting His mother. A woman in the company cried out, “Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked”, and Jesus replied, “Yea RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it”. Jesus loved His mother, but made it clear that we are not to exalt her.

BFHU: There is another way of looking at this passage. The Protestant culture teaches the faithful to use a method of what I call “either/or”. For the passage you have brought up one must decide either to honor Mary or “to hear the word of God and keep it.” But in our Catholic way of interpreting scripture we also use a “both/and” method unless the context clearly indicates that an either/or decision must be made. Therefore, one does NOT have to choose either to honor Mary or “to hear the word of God and keep it.” We can do both. But this in no way is to be taken to mean both are equal in importance. The honoring of Mary will get you nowhere if you do not ” hear the word of God and keep it.” It would be a lot like “faith without works is dead”.

In addition, at the suggestion of Surkiko, I just looked up “rather” in the Greek. It is the Greek word menoun.

Here is how a Protestant scholar understands the passage:
The Greek word used for “rather” in Luke 11:28 is “menoun”:

“autos de eipen menoun makarioi hoi akouontes ton logon tou theou kai phulassontes”
“Blessed are those who hear the word of God” (Lk. 11:28a)

There are various translations of the word menoun. The King James Version translates it as “yea rather” while the Revised Standard Version renders it as “indeed.” The Douay-Rheims Version renders it as “furthermore.”

How then is “menoun” to be understood? Protestant Bible scholar Margaret E. Thrall studied Greek particles in the New Testament. This scholar cannot be accused of bias toward the Catholic position. Yet, in her study, she suggests the interpretation of “menoun” in Luke 11:27-28 as:

“What you have said is true as far as it goes. But the blessedness of Mary does not consist simply in the fact of her relationship towards myself, but (menoun) in the fact that she shares in the blessedness of those who hear the word of God and keep it, and it is in this that true blessedness lies” [Margaret E. Thrall, Greek Particles in the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1962) p. 35].
–From the blog The Knight of Mary

Mary: Queen of Heaven



Mary: Read Jeremiah chapter 7 and 44 and see what God says about praying to the Queen of Heaven.

Bread From Heaven: We do not pray TO Mary in the same sense that we pray TO God. God is able to answer our prayers. Mary and the Saints are able to intercede for us just like any other human person that we ask to pray for us TO GOD.

1) Mary is not an idol. She is a human alive in Heaven.

2) She actually is the Queen Mother of Heaven because Jesus is King.

3) The Queen of Heaven mentioned in Jeremiah could not possibly have been referring to Mary, since she had not even been born yet, and neither had her parents or their parents.

4) The Queen of Heaven referred to in Jeremiah was a mythical pagan goddess. Mary was not Pagan. She was not mythical. She is not a goddess.

5) “All generations shall call me blessed.” Mary declared under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Which Church still calls Mary the Blessed Mother? Does your Church? How will you answer when you stand before Jesus and He asks you why you did not?

6) Catholics honor Mary. We do not worship her. We honor her in obedience to the Commandments to honor our Father and Mother. Since we are a part of the body of Christ, Mary is also our mother. And we are told in Revelation 12

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols.


Bread From Heaven: On my post Where Does Scripture Say Mary Was Sinless? I made the oft repeated comment: “The Catholic Faith does not contradict anything in Scripture.” To this Erica replied:

Erica: How about IDOLATRY…?

Look at your Churches… There’s a lot of statues of Saints, Mary etc. that almost all of Catholics kneel upon it and even worship it like a God….

Go and continue worshiping your godly images and let’s see how far you will go…

“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, IDOL WORSHIPERS, and all liars–their fate is in the FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. This is the SECOND DEATH.”
Revelation 21:8

HAHAHAHA!!!

Bread From Heaven: I have many posts on this topic. Since I had just made a power point presentation to all of our confirmation students last Sunday I decided to make  my talk into one more post on this topic:

Does the Catholic Church worship Idols?

Protestants say we do. Where do they get  this idea?

TEN COMMANDMENTS
First Commandment

Exodus 20:You must not have any other god but me.You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them

Therefore, many Protestants criticize Catholics because we have pictures and statues in our Churches and our homes. Most Protestants never have these in their churches because they think they are idols. They take this very seriously.

“You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind…

Protestant are very sincere, BUT…are Protestants  right?
No, they are forgetting some very important Bible verses where God told Moses to place in the Temple in the very presence of God, the Holy of Holies:

2 ANGELS  of hammered gold …their wings spread upward..The angels are to face each other..-Ex. 25:18-20

 So, God Himself wanted a couple of images of “things in Heaven” in the Tabernacle

And did you know God told Solomon to decorate the Temple with images of things in Heaven and Earth? 

600 Pomegranates, Lilies, Gourds, 12 Bulls, Lions, Angels, Palm Trees, and Golden Flowers

And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east, and the sea was above upon them, and their hinder parts were all hid within.–I Kings 7:18-46

And then we have the incident where the children of Israel were bitten by fiery serpents and …

Numbers 21:8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Obviously, God  has not forbidden art because He commanded specific kinds of art to decorate the Temple and to save the Israelites from snakebites. He just didn’t want us to Worship these things

 “You must not bow down to them or worship them”

Why does the Catholic Church have Art in Churches? I can think of 5 reasons.

1. Pictures and statues are like family photos in our houses of worship only we have images of the Family of God.

Doesn’t every house have family pictures?

2. As an aid to prayer and to keep us focused.

3. To remind us of those who set an example of heroic Christian living.

.

.

.

.

4. As reminders of Stories of Faith; to teach our children when a child asks, “Who is that?”

5. To tell the stories of our Faith to all the generations in the last 2000 years when Bibles were too expensive for individuals to own and most people could not read anyway. Did you know, even today 20% of the world population cannot read? But everyone can understand art.

But Protestants will say, “The Bible says: You must not bow down to them or worship them….”

Therefore, Protestants reason, since Catholics have images in their churches and they kneel or bow to them, Catholics worship images and commit idolatry!

So, Protestants think this kneeling is  Idolatry?

.

.

.

.

.

But not this–><—or this

or this–>

Is President Obama worshiping the  Emperor of Japan?

No! He was merely honoring him.

Why do Protestants think only Catholic kneeling is Idolatry?

Simple. Because their leaders have taught them that Catholics worship idols. Protestants trust their leaders and so when they visit a Catholic Church and see statues and pictures with people kneeling in front of them they jump to the conclusion that they are actually seeing modern day idolatry.

They do not question this judgement because they have been taught that this is true. They fail to recognize that they are unable to know the heart and mind of the kneeling person and therefore their judgement may, very well be, uncharitable. They don’t mean to be uncharitable…..But…..

They are simply WRONG!

We bow and kneel in order to honor Mary and the Saints. We do NOT worship them. The Catholic Church condemns the worship of anyone except God, the Holy Trinity!

There is nothing wrong with art in our Churches

Because God Himself commanded Moses to decorate the Jewish Temple with images of:

Things in Heaven–>Angels

and

Things on Earth–>Plants and Animals

The idea that all kneeling is, without question, Worship, is absurd.

If all kneeling =Worship then:

A Knight kneeling to a king is worshiping him.

A little girl kneeling by her bed is worshiping the bed…

A boy kneeling by a Bible and baseball glove is worshiping them.

.

.

.

.

.

When God said: You must not make …an image of any kind or …bow down …or worship them…

He did not mean all images are idols and all kneeling is worship.

He simply meant : Don’t worship anything or anyone but ME.

Why Do Catholics Worship Mary



Q. I am confused, about, the worshiping Mary thing.

A. The Worship of Mary is Condemned by the Catholic Church. The accusation that Catholics worship Mary is a Protestant tradition based in misunderstanding. It has been handed down from generation to generation by Protest-ants. But it just is not true. Mary is a creature, created by God. She is not divine. We honor her. We DO NOT worship her. Because there is a real difference between Protestant and Catholic culture, Protestants often misjudge what they hear and see in the Catholic Church. Some even jump to very uncharitable conclusions without ever asking a knowledgeable Catholic if what they thought they saw or heard was correct.

Q. I found several things that say the pope tells the Catholic’s to worship Mary.

A. I am sorry but that is impossible. You may have found something that you interpreted to be a pope telling people to worship Mary. But I can guarantee he did not tell anyone to “worship Mary.”  If you could show it to me we can look at it together.

Q. And I looked up Mary in the Catechism, and it talks about her as the “Mother of God”

A. Once I explain this you will understand it. This phrase, Mother of God, merely means that Mary was the mother of Jesus. Since Jesus was God, and Mary was His mother; Mary is the Mother of God. That is all it means. It does not mean we think she pre-existed the Holy  Trinity, the Godhead or created God Almighty in her womb.This phrase was coined in the early centuries of the Church when there was a heresy regarding the deity and humanity of Jesus. This simple phrase affirmed the incarnation of Jesus the God-man.

Q. And the “Mother of the members of the church”

A. Yes, and so she certainly is as we see in

Rev. 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne….17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Q. What about holding her to a high reverence.

A. Yes, we honor her as Elizabeth predicted.

Luke 1:42 Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

And Mary prophesied also:

Luke 1: 48 For behold, from this time on all generations will call me blessed.

One never hears, “Blessed Mary” out of an Evangelical/ Protestant mouth. Why is that? It is scriptural?

Peter is Not the Rock


Jeff:

REVELATION:
The Catholic Church, should be guided by continuing revelation. It should have prophet and the authority from God. (Peter is not the ROCK, the ROCK is revelation)

BFHU:Jeff where does Jesus say that the ROCK is revelation!!! for our readers here is what Jesus actually said,
to Peter:

“you are Rock and on this Rock I will build MY Church.”
I do not see the word “revelation” in there at all.

Jeff: The Pope should be able to communicate directly with God and be able to clarify doctrines as did the original Apostles.

BFHU: Where does this assertion come from? Can you back this up with scripture?

Jeff: Too many of the beliefs of the Catholic Church are doctrines of men mingled with scripture.

BFHU: You are correct. They are the doctrines taught by the man, Jesus, to His men the apostles, and passed down to the present time in written and oral form just as the man St. Paul asserted in I Thess.

Jeff: If the Church was governed by revelation there would not be so many contradicting doctrines.

BFHU: Uhhhh…such as? We have no contradicting doctrines. Some of our doctrines CONTRADICT PROTESTANT DOCTRINES or PROTESTANT INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.
But we do not have any contradicting doctrines. That is one of the sublime beauties of the Catholic Faith. It is soooooo much more intellectually satisfying, cohesive, deep and complete than the Protestantism I was involved in.

Jeff: The Catholic Church is not founded upon revelation:

BFHU: It certainly is. It is founded upon ALL that Jesus Revealed and taught to his apostles, along with the OT. It is founded on more revelation than Protestantism, which has only written revelation to rely upon.

Jeff: Mary The Virgin:
I give to Mary the utmost respect, but she should not be worshiped as if she were another God, as she is worshiped in the Catholic Church.

BFHU: WORSHIP OF MARY IS CONDEMNED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.

Jeff: You cannot simply dismiss the fact that Mary had other children. She was a virgin at the time of conception of Jesus but did not remain a virgin.

BFHU: Historically Mary had no other children. That is why Jesus gave her into the care of St. John from the cross. Even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Upon what reliable source document do you assert that Mary had other children?

Jeff: This cannot be dismissed simply with ” This is a legitimate interpretation of scripture but it is not the only legitimate interpretation. ” It is THE ONLY interpretation.

BFHU: Is your interpretation infallible then? The so called brothers and sisters of Jesus were merely kinsmen.

Jeff: Nor was Mary sinless, Jesus was the only sinless person to ever live, allowing him to atone for our sins. He was the only pure and spotless lamb.

BFHU: Where does it say this in Scripture? You are espousing a Protestant Tradition of Men called Sola Scriptura.

Catholics Sound Like They Worship Mary



Karine: But here is the problem: my family and friends(catholics) do pray TO Mary and the saints. They are asking her favors, and they are thanking her for her support and her answers. In a catholic magazine, I read that story of a woman asking Mary for advice and listening to her voice. If that is not contradicting the scriptures, it is close. The theory you are explaining is nice, but the reality is something else.

BFHU: The “theory (I am) explaining” is the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think you should politely ask your relatives if they believe Mary has the power on her own to answer prayer or if God answers her prayers for us.

It can sometimes sound downright heretical (and maybe it is) but I once had a Physician friend tell us how he had gone to Europe and actually seen Catholics worshipping idols in the Churches. What he saw were people kneeling in front of statues or pictures and praying. Because Protestants only say prayers to GOD, when he saw prayer in front of a statue he was convinced he was seeing idol worship. Now, I don’t know what was in the heart of the people in prayer but neither did he. He jumped to a conclusion based on the traditions of his religion, which created a bias he was completely unaware of. He is a very nice man but in this case made a judgement of the heart of someone he never even talked to or inquired about what they were doing. This is uncharitable. And he would never want to be uncharitable. He didn’t mean to be, but Protestantism breeds a pride and arrogance that secretly takes root without the individual realizing its hidden presence. I am speaking from experience.

Karine: There is a problem with the teachers of the catholic church if the flock is so mislead.

BFHU: You could not be more correct about that! The catechesis in the Catholic Church in America and Europe has been a huge failure for the past 40 years. Thats 30 years longer than I have been Catholic. I thank God I did not have to go through all those years like so many Catholics around the world.

Karine: You are from a protestant background, and you intensely studied the dogmas of the catholic church, but the regular believer who just goes to mass does not seem to know all that you are explaining on this website.

BFHU: You’re right again, unfortunately.

Karine: Another thing that’s wrong: the danger of too much emphasis. I know you are not too crazy on sola scriptura, but really the first church- Acts and the letters are pretty silent on asking prayers to Mary or the Saints. Actually, they are pretty silent on Mary period. Mary and the Saints are SO present in a conversation with a catholic that one would be entitled to ask if they are not taking the place of Jesus.

BFHU: Romans 12:4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others

I Corinthians 12:4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others… 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it

Karine: Also, it is just weird to hear catholics pray 20 times the same thing. That does contradicts Scriptures(Matthew 6.7)

When I ask a friend to pray for me , I do not go like this: –

Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless!Dear friend could you pray for me? You so great and so nice and God bless! etc.

See what I mean?

BFHU: LOL. I do see what you mean. But do you understand the history of the Rosary? You can read it HERE—>Short Hisory of the Rosary or Catholic Encyclopedia It is not really about asking 50 times for the same thing. It is primarily a meditation on the life of Christ that takes about 20 minutes for each set of mysteries- The joyful,sorrowful, luminous and glorious. It is really a very beautiful devotion and in several of Mary’s church approved, appartions Mary begs for everyone to pray the Rosary. It does not focus on Mary as many think but on her Son.

Below are the Mysteries. This can seem a little complicated and daunting. Because the rosary and beads are a means for praying with focus, the mysteries merely refine that focus further.

The Five Joyful Mysteries are: (one mystery per rosary decade)

1) The Annunciation: The Angel Gabriel appears to Mary to announce she is to be the Mother of God.

2) The Visitation: Mary is greeted by her cousin Elizabeth who declares, “Blessed art Thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!”

3) The Nativity: The Virgin Mary gives birth to our Savior.

4) The Presentation: The Blessed Mother presents the child Jesus in the Temple.

5) The Finding in the Temple: The Blessed Mother finds Jesus in the Temple.

The Five Sorrowful Mysteries

1) The Agony in the Garden: Jesus prays in Gethsemane

2) The Scourging at the Pillar: Pilate has Jesus whipped

3) The Crowning with Thorns: Upon Jesus’ head is placed a painful crown of thorns

4) The Carrying of the Cross: Jesus carries the heavy cross upon His shoulders to Calvary

5) The Crucifixion: Jesus is nailed to the Cross and agonizes three hours before dying

The Five Glorious Mysteries

1) The Resurrection: Jesus rises three days after His death

2) The Ascension: Jesus ascends into heaven forty days after His resurrection

3) The Descent of the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit comes upon Mary and the Apostles

4) The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin: The Blessed Mother is brought body and soul into heaven to be with her Son

5) The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary: Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth

The Five Luminous Mysteries are:

1) The Baptism: John the Baptist baptizes Jesus in the river Jordan

2) The Self-Manifestation of Our Lord at Cana: Jesus changes water into wine at the wedding feast

3) The Proclamation of the

4) The Transfiguration: Jesus is transfigured before the disciples

5) The Institution of the Eucharist: Jesus offers His body and blood under the signs of bread and wine.

Karine:-To summarize: The ”asking prayers to saints” thing is badly taught, and is so unclear that catholics believers are doing it wrong. The emphasis is taken away from Jesus.

BFHU: This is not by design of the teaching of the Catholic Church. If people are praying to Mary in a wrong way then she will pray for them to come closer to her Divine Son. That is her desire, to lead us all to Christ. The Catholic Faith is a mystery and supernatural. It does not follow the ways of the world.