Jackie: Surkiko states “The reading of scripture W/O the church is an occupational hazard.” Really? All the “rules” and canons that RC mandates can and do change on a whim.
BFHU:Interesting assertion. Can you back it up with an example of the Catholic Church changing things on a whim?
Jackie: God’s word is unchanging.
Jackie: You do not need a mere man (pope) to interpret the Bible for you…God equips YOU to do that.
BFHU: Jackie, the Bible must be interpreted by mere men. God has not equipped every person to infallibly interpret scripture. This was Martin Luther’s theory 500 years ago but it has been categorically disproven since each person does not interpret scripture the same as every other person. Therefore, either the Holy Spirit is falling down on the job or else the promised infallible interpretation was NOT meant for every believer. Yes we can read the Bible and understand it but when it comes to doctrine, since God is not a God of confusion, we know there must be ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Not the many that have given birth to hundreds of different and conflicting Protestant denominations. Jesus tells us clearly that He desires unity and that we all be one. But private interpretation has confounded His desire.(John 17)
Jackie: You can’t add human tradition to the cross.
BFHU: We agree. We do not add human tradition. What the Catholic Church refers to as TRADITION, is NOT human tradition. It is the very teachings of Jesus Christ to His apostles. It is teaching that the Catholic Church has believed for 2000 years but it all did not get included in the canon of scripture. It is part of the oral Tradition that St. Paul exhorts the faithful to cling to.
Jackie:You can’t make up “feel good” things, like Mary was a perpetual virgin…
BFHU: Mary’s perpetual virginity is not a feel good thing. It is historical fact. There is no historical evidence that Mary had any more children. All there is is Protestant private interpretation, unhinged from all Church history and ancient teaching. Even Martin Luther and John Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. But someone, on his own authority using his own fallible private interpretation decided that Mary had other children. This person had no information about the language and culture of early Christianity and the semitic languages and usages of words like brother and sister. Which, by the way, we still use these words today to sometimes mean sibling and sometimes to denote a close relationship but not a sibling. And yet Protestants somehow KNOW that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were siblings and there was absolutely not way they could have been anything but siblings because….because…Mary just could not have been a perpetual virgin because that is a Catholic belief and it just has to be wrong.
Jackie:…like praying repetitiously (rosary)
BFHU: Are you aware that Scripture does not condemn repetitious prayer? Even Jesus prayed the same prayer three times.
Matthew 26:44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
Only vain repetition is discouraged.
Jackie:..like eating the REAL body of Christ day after day
BFHU: We are just doing exactly what Jesus told us to do in Scripture.
John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Jackie: …like confession with priests
BFHU: Jesus clearly instituted the sacrament of confession to a priest in John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Sins cannot be remitted or retained unless they are heard. But of course, Protestants will interpret this privately, in opposition to the historical Christian interpretation.
Jackie:…like baby baptism
BFHU: Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament for the people of God. It corresponds to the Jewish initiation of infants into the family of God…circumcision. Infant baptism is nowhere condemned in Scripture. Many Protestants take the beginnings of the Christian faithful, which needed adult converts and therefore adult baptism, to be the ONLY way to enter the family of God, despite the fact that infants are NOT outlawed from baptism. Even whole households were baptised in scripture and it could very well be there were infants among the newly baptized. Certainly scripture nowhere excludes infants from baptism. So once again it only Protestant interpretation of scripture that conflicts with the Catholic Church.
Jackie: …oh, and God ordained marriage–no where in the Bible does it say priests/bishops/popes should not marry; in fact their first “pope” Peter was married (MAT8:14).
BFHU: It is true that Peter had once been married. However, Jesus clearly says that some become eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
Jackie: Where in the Bible does it say that people are either catholic, non-catholic, or anti-catholic? I must have missed that somewhere…
BFHU: I don’t think anyone said it was in the Bible….
Jackie:.. all the catholic talking points that are regurgitated over and over from you catholics. Read the Bible…don’t point me to a RC canon or council or pope statement
BFHU: I hope I have pointed you to Scripture that supports our Catholic doctrine. I would never point you to a RC canon or council since you reject them. But you should consider that the Early Christian Church believed Catholic doctrine. They were not Protestant in their beliefs at all. That is why I was convinced I had to be Catholic. I had to join the Church Jesus founded. I had to enter the Historical Church; the one that has been around for 2000 years not a mere 40-500 years.
Jackie: Read REV 22:18-19.
And catholic belief in purgatory comes from Maccabees – catholic-added, uninspired book – apocrypha, & not God-inspired.
BFHU: No it does not come from Maccabees. It comes from Scripture and the Jews. You might find these two posts interesting if you wish to be informed about actual Catholic teaching and not just what Protestants say Catholics believe. There is a big difference. I dare you to investigate….
Jackie: Rev 22:17-18 is a good start.
And where is that in the Bible that Jesus saved Mary b4 she sinned???? wow.
BFHU: I will answer you when you tell me:
Where in the Bible does it say all religious truth must be found in Scripture alone?
Jackie: You are sinners saved by grace when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
God’s Blessings to You.
BFHU: We do. But Protestants, based on their private interpretation of scripture, condemn Catholics.
Ready: We disagree, however, on WHEN this pile of dung must be dealt with. I believe that it must be dealt with in this life (rather than Purgatory) because “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” (Heb. 9v27)
BFHU: And much of the purification can be accomplished in this life. We agree that the Judgment comes immediately after death. The soul is consigned to Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is merely the place of final purification before entering Heaven when necessary.
Ready: When the dying thief on the cross reached out in faith to Jesus, He said to him: “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23v43) Even though he was dying for a crime, He was cleansed there and then in THIS life, by trusting in the blood of Jesus for salvation. Of course the dying thief had no opportunity to commit further sin – while we who continue live here have temptations thrown at us every day – but the Lord is able to deliver us from temptations – and from sin itself. “There remaineth therefore a rest unto the people of God.” (Hebrews 4v9)
BFHU: Of course God/Jesus can purify instanaeously but I have read that perhaps the Thief’s suffering of crucifixion was the purification necessary for his soul coupled with his Faith, of course
Ready: God is able to save – and to sanctify in an instant in this life. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom. 8v1)
In my A.V. Bible (which does not, however, contain the book of Maccabbees) I see no mention of destinations other than Heaven or Hell.
BFHU:Purgatory is not a type of condemnation it is a place of cleansing. So, there is no conflict with Rom 8. Purgatory is not a destination, either. It is a layover on the way to our Heavenly destination, for most of us.
Ready: The Trinity, on the other hand, is merely a term to describe Father, Son & Holy Spirit – a clear doctrine in scriptures.
BFHU: It is not very clear. That is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are able to reject it. Have you ever tried to show a JW the Trinity in Scripture? There are evidences and the Doctrine makes sense of many otherwise inexplicable passages. But it is not so clear to the unconvinced.
Ready: From the verses you quote I can see no evidence of any other place. Jesus descended into Hell to preach to the “spirits in prison” – to tell them why they were there.
BFHU: No, Jesus did not go to tell the damned why they were there. As a Protestant I was taught that Sheol was the place of the dead awaiting the opening of Heaven by Jesus. (There is definitely another ‘place’ of the dead other than Heaven and Hell or the place of the damned.) Jesus led these captives free and brought them to Heaven. This I was taught as a Protestant and the Catholic teaching is similar:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek – because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:“It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
Ready: Horrific as it sounds, Hell is the holding place for those who are destined for the lake of fire. (Rev. 20v14)
BFHU: And no one escapes Hell. The Catholic Church sees two Judgments. One at death and one at the end of time. This passage would be the latter since death is ended by being thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) This does not mean that one’s final destination changes at the final judgment. We believe that it is at this time all things are explained and God is glorified for His justice and mercy.
REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
You might find this Protestant site of interest to further explain: Berean Bible Society
Ready: But it is not God’s will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2Pet. 3v9) which is why He still stands knocking on the doors of mens hearts in this, the day of Grace. (Rev. 3v20)
Michael:What in the world does Job 1:5 have to do with Purgatory? Haha. Job’s children were still living then. They hadn’t died yet, so this has nothing to do with praying for the dead. He was praying for his LIVING children.
BFHU: All true. It is just cited to show the OT idea of the need for purification and that the father prayed and sacrificed VICARIOUSLY, for their purification. Just as Jesus prayed and sacrificed for the sin of all mankind. AND just as we pray and offer little sacrifices for the purification of the Holy Souls in Purgatory. This doesn’t prove Purgatory just that some of the Catholic Theology regarding it is not new with Christianity.
Michael:Why is it that the Catholic church loves to quote Apocrypha?
BFHU:We don’t. These books are NOT Apocrypha. They are regarded as the Deuterocanon or second canon. Apocrypha refers to uncanonized books. Some of these were good but some were heretical. We have none in our Bible.
Protestants have a tradition of referring to the OT Books in the Catholic Bible that Martin Luther threw out of his OT, as “apocrypha” in a derogatory and inaccurate way.
We do use this passage in Maccabees to show the ancient OT belief upon which Catholic belief and practice regarding the souls in Purgatory is founded.
Michael: These book appear in the back of the Catholic Bible (I still have mine from prep school).
BFHU:In Catholic Bibles today they are included categorically with the rest of the OT. I have never heard that they were ever at the back of a Bible, except for centuries, Protestant Bibles often included these same 7 books in the back of the Bible. If you wouldn’t mind I would like to have you check it and see if it is truly a Catholic Bible or if it is a Protestant Bible. What Translation? Who Published it? What Year?
Michael:These books have been rejected by the church, why do they use these passages? Some books fo the Apocrypha state that Jesus sinned, are we to use those passages?
BFHU:You are wrong. They are a part of the inerrant scriptures that Jesus used and quoted from most frequently. We use them because we received the Greek Septuagint Old Testament Scriptures straight from the Jews of the first century. Simple as that. Once Christians began using them to make converts Pharisees got together and removed them. So Protestant follow the OT of the Pharisees and Martin Luther.
Michael:Playing games with words and pretending that “purification” is different from “redemption” is sophistry, pure and simple.
BFHU: Only because of the Protestant culture you are used to. Even Martin Luther acknowledged that we might be redeemed but still impure. The purification I am talking about is the remission of the temporal consequences of sin
Jesus’ work on the cross was either enough to completely cleanse us, or it was not. It’s that simple. For a better Biblical explanation of Purgatory click–>Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?
No canon scripture supports the notion of Purgatory, and it never will. stuff.
BFHU:How do you understand this verse?
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
Michael:Christ told the thief on the cross he would we with with Him in Paradise, not after being in Purgatory for a while. The poor man, Lazarus:
BFHU:But Michael, you yourself said that Paradise is the good side of the place of the dead, or Abraham’s bosom. It is not Heaven but those who await the opening of Heaven by Jesus will be going to Heaven. This is where the Thief of the Cross went “Today you will be with me in Paradise” because Jesus did not ascend to His Father in Heaven for three days as He tell Mary Magdalene.
Michael:Purgatory is a foolish idea, that is insulting to the propitiating work of Christ… it’s that simple.
BFHU:It is only foolish to Protestants who are content to enter Heaven as a “pile of dung covered over with the righteousness of Christ.” as Luther explains. Catholic believe that we can be completely purified and thoroughly HOLY as we enter the Presence of God in Heaven. But the fact is as scripture says, we must be Holy as He is Holy. So everyone, whether they believe in purification after death of not WILL BE PURIFIED BEFORE BEHOLDING GOD IN HEAVEN.
Q. I also don’t see any biblical evidence for purgatory.
A. Well, the word purgatory does not appear anywhere is Sacred Scripture. However, the words trinity and incarnation also do not appear anywhere in Sacred Scripture. So, the fact that a word does not appear in scripture does not categorically exclude the truthfulness of the doctrine it conveys. If it did we would all need to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, the Doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation are clearly found in scripture. And so is the Doctrine of Purgatory.
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Here Jesus implies that some sins will be forgiven in the “age to come.” We know that sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there is no need for any sin to be forgiven once you are in Heaven. So, there must be some other state/age/place where sin CAN be forgiven after this age or this life. We call this Purgatory. This word comes from the Latin word for pure–> purigare. It is an intermediate state between life in this world and Heaven in which the soul is purified.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
You might want to look at this whole passage in context. Again, we know that once someone is in Hell, there is no escaping. And we also know that in Heaven there is no suffering, so this passage must be talking about a purification before Heaven is attained.
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Luke 16:22-26 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23″In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24″And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’25″But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.26′And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.‘
From these passages Sacred Scripture speaks of a “place” that is neither Heaven nor Hell. As a Protestant I was taught that until Jesus died and rose again Heaven was closed to everyone. So, the souls of the godly people of the OT went to Sheol or Hades, a kind of holding tank until the work of Christ was completed and these souls could enter Heaven. So, even many Protestants believe in some sort of place/state that was neither Heaven nor Hell.
Jesus went to this place to preach the gospel to Old Testament spirits who were disobedient so they might live. In the Luke passage we see that the Jews of Jesus’ time must have been familiar with the idea of Abraham’s Bosom, as opposed to the “prison” of the I Peter passages or the flames of the rich man, where the just were comforted while awaiting Heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
From this verse we see that something happens to change us, presumably before we reach our final destination. And finally,
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Christ did His part, perfectly. And we must do our part. We must be holy as He is holy in order to be in the presence of God. We can seek this holiness diligently in this life and what ever is still impure at our death will be purified by Christ until we are completely HOLY. We say this purification takes place in Purgatory.
II Maccabees 12:44-45 …if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
This passage shows that the Jews before Christ practiced prayer for the dead so that they might be purified of their sin
Q. 1 John 1:7, and Rev. 1:5 tells us Jesus’ blood cleanses us from all sin.
A. What you are not understanding because you have never been taught, is that there are two consequences for sin. Eternal and Temporal. Jesus died for the Eternal consequences of sin but we must suffer and be purified of the temporal consequences of sin
CCC 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
The non Catholic view of salvation says that Jesus died for our sins and if we repent and believe:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins …
End of story. However, we see in Sacred Scripture that there is more to the story. For instance, in this very verse it goes on to say:
.…and purify us from all unrighteousness.
This is the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory in a nutshell. We see in scripture and in our everyday life two aspects or dimensions of sin. By offending the eternal God we commit a sin that has eternal consequences. We being finite are completely unable to make reparation for the eternal consequences of sin. Only an eternal being is able to do this. So, God incarnate, suffered and died on the cross to save us from the eternal consequences of sin. And we appropriate this gift by baptism, faith, repentance of sin in general and particular etc.
However, there remains the temporal consequences of sin. All sin, large and small, has consequences. These consequences are more obvious at times than others. If I speed and suddenly notice red lights flashing in my rear view mirror, confessing and repenting of my sin of speeding does not make the police car disappear. I still get the ticket. I still suffer the consequences of my sin. If I have sex outside of marriage and get an STD, going to confession does not make the STD disappear. The consequences of other sins may not be as obvious. But they all need to be suffered by us either in this life or the next. This is how we are purified of the temporal consequences of sin.
As with all the stories of God dealing with His children, He does His part and His children do their part.
- God warned Noah about the Flood but Noah had to build the ark.
- God promised to make a nation out of the seed of Abraham but Abraham had to go.
- God told Moses He would set Israel free but Moses had to lead them out.
- God promised Israel the land of Canaan but Israel had to conquer it.
We clearly get a glimpse of the eternal and temporal consequences of sin in 2 Sam 12:13-14:
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD ” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD has taken away your sin; you shall not die.14″However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.”
In this passage David is confronted by the Prophet Nathan about his sin with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband Uriah. David, repents. And Nathan announces that God has forgiven him for this sin. But, his child would die and many other evils would be visited on David, as a consequence of his sin. So God’s forgiveness did not negate a temporal punishment for his sin.
Martin Luther taught that we are covered over with the righteousness of Christ as a blanket of snow on a pile of dung and that is how we enter Heaven–still impure inside. However, the Catholic Faith teaches that we are completely purified of all sin, both temporal and eternal before we can enter into the presence of God in Heaven. So, using Luther’s analogy, when we enter the presence of God we are pure and white through and through not just a disguised pile of poop.
Becca: I find it truly sad that you would think that your father who was a born again believer would be in a place like Purgatory.
BFHU: No need to be sad. Purgatory is a place where we are totally purified of all residual sin and reparation of sin, in order that we may enter into the Holy Presence of God. I want to be totally pure, don’t you? I don’t want to be a pile of dung for eternity that has been merely whitewashed, as Martin Luther opines.
It is a time when we, as St. Paul said,
Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Becca:The Bible is very clear when it states that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Cor.5:8).
BFHU:You will be shocked to know that you are actually misquoting scripture. No translation says what you have been taught it says. It does not make a doctrinal type statement that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” The actual verse simply is making the statement that St. Paul is willing to be absent from his body (dead) because then he would be with his Lord.
2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
If I say I am flying out of LA tomorrow and going to New York, that statement does not absolutely rule out a stopover in Denver. The Bible is just not a book of systematic theology. Colossians is a letter to a church. Doctrine is not systematically stated, only alluded to. Mutally understood but unwritten doctrine underlies what St. Paul writes here.
Becca:Also the Bible never makes mention of Purgatory, it states in John 14:6 that “no one comes to the Father, but by me.”
BFHU:Of course we agree that Jesus is the Way to the Father. But you are basing your belief in Christ Alone on a Protestant tradition and not on the whole Bible. This is prooftexting.
Becca:We don’t come to the Father by Purgatory,
BFHU: You might want to take a look at my post here–>Where is Purgatory is Scripture?
Becca:We don’t come to the Father by sacraments,
BFHU:How about the sacrament of:
Baptism:1 Peter 3:21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you…
Eucharist: In order to attain eternal life:
John 6: 47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48″I am the bread of life 49″Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50″This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51″I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” 52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55″For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56″He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57″As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58″This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Becca:We don’t come to the Father by confession,
BFHU: Then why do you think Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive or not forgive sins? Why did He institute the sacrament of confession then?
John 20: 21 So Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
These men cannot pronounce forgiveness or not without audibly hearing a confession of sin.
Becca:We don’t come to the Father by works but by Christ alone do we get to heaven.
Your statement above flatly contradicts St. James:
James 2:14-25 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?… faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT by faith alone.