The Catholic Church Just has to be Wrong!



Jackie: Surkiko states “The reading of scripture W/O the church is an occupational hazard.” Really? All the “rules” and canons that RC mandates can and do change on a whim.

BFHU:Interesting assertion. Can you back it up with an example of the Catholic Church changing things on a whim?

Jackie: God’s word is unchanging.

BFHU: True.

Jackie: You do not need a mere man (pope) to interpret the Bible for you…God equips YOU to do that.

BFHU: Jackie, the Bible must be interpreted by mere men. God has not equipped every person to infallibly interpret scripture. This was Martin Luther’s theory 500 years ago but it has been categorically disproven since each person does not interpret scripture the same as every other person. Therefore, either the Holy Spirit is falling down on the job or else the promised infallible interpretation was NOT meant for every believer. Yes we can read the Bible and understand it but when it comes to doctrine, since God is not a God of confusion, we know there must be ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Not the many that have given birth to hundreds of different and conflicting Protestant denominations. Jesus tells us clearly that He desires unity and that we all be one. But private interpretation has confounded His desire.(John 17)

Jackie: You can’t add human tradition to the cross.

BFHU: We agree. We do not add human tradition. What the Catholic Church refers to as TRADITION, is NOT human tradition. It is the very teachings of Jesus Christ to His apostles. It is teaching that the Catholic Church has believed for 2000 years but it all did not get included in the canon of scripture. It is part of the oral Tradition that St. Paul exhorts the faithful to cling to.

Jackie:You can’t make up “feel good” things, like Mary was a perpetual virgin…

BFHU: Mary’s perpetual virginity is not a feel good thing. It is historical fact. There is no historical evidence that Mary had any more children. All there is is Protestant private interpretation, unhinged from all Church history and ancient teaching. Even Martin Luther and John Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. But someone, on his own authority using his own fallible private interpretation decided that Mary had other children. This person had no information about the language and culture of early Christianity and the semitic languages and usages of words like brother and sister. Which, by the way, we still use these words today to sometimes mean sibling and sometimes to denote a close relationship but not a sibling. And yet Protestants somehow KNOW that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were siblings and there was absolutely not way they could have been anything but siblings because….because…Mary just could not have been a perpetual virgin because that is a Catholic belief and it just has to be wrong.

Jackie:…like praying repetitiously (rosary)

BFHU: Are you aware that Scripture does not condemn repetitious prayer? Even Jesus prayed the same prayer three times.

Matthew 26:44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

Only vain repetition is discouraged.

Jackie:..like eating the REAL body of Christ day after day

BFHU: We are just doing exactly what Jesus told us to do in Scripture.

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.

Jackie: …like confession with priests

BFHU: Jesus clearly instituted the sacrament of confession to a priest in John 20:22

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Sins cannot be remitted or retained unless they are heard. But of course, Protestants will interpret this privately, in opposition to the historical Christian interpretation.

Jackie:…like baby baptism

BFHU: Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament for the people of God. It corresponds to the Jewish initiation of infants into the family of God…circumcision. Infant baptism is nowhere condemned in Scripture. Many Protestants take the beginnings of the Christian faithful, which needed adult converts and therefore adult baptism, to be the ONLY way to enter the family of God, despite the fact that infants are NOT outlawed from baptism. Even whole households were baptised in scripture and it could very well be there were infants among the newly baptized. Certainly scripture nowhere excludes infants from baptism. So once again it only Protestant interpretation of scripture that conflicts with the Catholic Church.

Jackie: …oh, and God ordained marriage–no where in the Bible does it say priests/bishops/popes should not marry; in fact their first “pope” Peter was married (MAT8:14).

BFHU: It is true that Peter had once been married. However, Jesus clearly says that some become eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

Jackie: Where in the Bible does it say that people are either catholic, non-catholic, or anti-catholic? I must have missed that somewhere…

BFHU: I don’t think anyone said it was in the Bible….

Jackie:.. all the catholic talking points that are regurgitated over and over from you catholics. Read the Bible…don’t point me to a RC canon or council or pope statement

BFHU: I hope I have pointed you to Scripture that supports our Catholic doctrine. I would never point you to a RC canon or council since you reject them. But you should consider that the Early Christian Church believed Catholic doctrine. They were not Protestant in their beliefs at all. That is why I was convinced I had to be Catholic. I had to join the Church Jesus founded. I had to enter the Historical Church; the one that has been around for 2000 years not a mere 40-500 years.

Jackie: Read REV 22:18-19.
And catholic belief in purgatory comes from Maccabees – catholic-added, uninspired book – apocrypha, & not God-inspired.

BFHU: No it does not come from Maccabees. It comes from Scripture and the Jews. You might find these two posts interesting if you wish to be informed about actual Catholic teaching and not just what Protestants say Catholics believe. There is a big difference. I dare you to investigate….

Where is Purgatory in Scripture?

Where Did the Catholic Church Get the Idea of Purgatory?

Early Fathers on Purgatory

The Roots of Purgatory

Jackie: Rev 22:17-18 is a good start.
And where is that in the Bible that Jesus saved Mary b4 she sinned???? wow.

BFHU: I will answer you when you tell me:

Where in the Bible does it say all religious truth must be found in Scripture alone?

Jackie: You are sinners saved by grace when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
God’s Blessings to You.

BFHU: We do. But Protestants, based on their private interpretation of scripture, condemn Catholics.

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Protest-ant Beliefs vs. Catholic Church


Kerrin says,Catholic Salvation is:Through the Roman Catholic Church

Bread From Heaven: Yes, this is very true but only because Jesus founded the Church to bring the Gospel to every Generation until the end of Time. Without Jesus there would be no salvation through the Catholic Church or any other way.

Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Merited by doing good works

Bread From Heaven:Absolutely WRONG. We cannot in any way merit salvation by our good works. Aside from our works making our faith perfect as James says, our works and sufferings etc are not for the purpose of saving ourselves but to make reparation for the temporal consequences of our sin. To purify our souls from attachment to sin. And what is not completed in this earthly life is completed by the grace of God in Purgatory. So that we may be Holy as He is Holy. (I Peter 1:16)For a full understanding of the Catholic teaching on purification see also my post–>Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?
Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: By faith PLUS the law, sacraments, and good works
Bread From Heaven: Well this is just what scripture says:
Law:

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Sacraments:Baptism

John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Eucharist:

John 6:54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life (see John 6:26–65)

Confession:

John 20:21 …I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [c]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Good works

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.

Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Attained by man

Bread From Heaven: Absolutely WRONG.

Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is:A process from Baptism through purgatory

Bread From Heaven: Salvation is through Jesus Christ. But we cannot enter into the Holy Presence of God until we are purified. Baptism is the first purification from all sin, eternal and temporal. Confession is a further absolution of the eternal consequences of sin, the sacraments give grace to strengthen our souls to stay the course and Purgatory finishes the purification of our souls, so that we will be Holy as He is Holy.

Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: Never assured in this life

Bread From Heaven: As long as we live we are able to fall from grace through mortal sin. But we always have hope and if we should fall into mortal sin we can avail ourselves of confession. As long as we are not in mortal sin we are sure of salvation. But Protestants, pretend to assurance of salvation with their once saved always save tradition. However, because all know of Christians who have committed adultery or some other mortal sin, they will say that the truth of the matter is:
Once saved Always saved IF saved. So they contend that those who fall were never saved in the first place. Therefore, no one really knows that they are saved for sure. They may be pretty sure they may assert that they are sure, but the reality is that until they die they too retain the ability to sin mortally. There are some sects who contend that once saved always saved NO MATTER HOW MUCH ONE SINS OR THE GRAVITY OF SIN.

This theology is rejected by the majority of Protestants. They may say, “Once saved always saved” but in the back of their mind they are adding, “If saved.” This why they are constantly judging each other; trying to determine is so and so is a REAL Christian.

Kerrin says, Catholic:Sins are expiated by suffering in purgatory

Bread From Heaven: Not entirely true.As I have said earlier. Jesus paid the full price for the Eternal Consequences of Sin but we must make reparation for the temporal consequences of sin. Where is the Biblical Evidence for Purgatory?

Kerrin says:Mary and all the saints are also glorified

Bread From Heaven: As heroic examples of Faith for us to follow. They are not glorified in the same sense as Our Lord or worshiped.

Kerrin says, Catholic Salvation is: This work continues with daily sacrifices

Bread From Heaven:This is a misunderstanding of what we celebrate at mass. Do we have daily sacrifices? Yes. Are these daily sacrifices a continuing of the daily sacrifices of the Old Testament priests? NO. We do call the mass a sacrifice but not because it is a NEW sacrifice. Not because it is ANOTHER sacrifice. But, at our mass a great mystery takes place. At every Catholic Mass the curtain of time is pulled back and we enter in to that ONE SACRIFICE that our precious Lord made on the cross 2000 years ago. We re-present the ETERNAL SACRIFICE of Jesus Christ. It happened once in Time but since it is eternal we are able to bring that sacrifice into the present by following the command of God the Son to “Do this in Remembrance of Me.” –>Sacrifice of the Mass

What Did Jesus Die For?



Q. If we have to go to purgatory when we die. Then I want to know one thing. Why did Jesus come and die for our sins?

A. In order to reconcile us to God.

Q. And which sins did he die for? Just some of my sins? Or all of my sins?

A. Jesus died for all sin both past, present and future.

Q. If he didn’t die for ALL my sins then he died for nothing.

A. What you are not understanding because you have never been taught, is that there are two consequences for sin. Eternal and Temporal. Jesus died for the Eternal consequences of sin but we must suffer and be purified of the temporal consequences of sin

CCC 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Please click HERE for scriptural evidence of the necessity of Purgatory.

Q. I will never be perfect til I enter the gates of Heaven.

A. That is exactly right. So if you don’t think that you will be perfect by the end of your life but you do believe that you will be perfect in order to enter Heaven…then you implicitly agree that there must be a perfecting or purification in order to be Holy as He is Holy before entering into His presence. We simply call this Purgatory and teach about it.

Q. If my name is written right now in the Lambs Book of Life, then why do I have to be purified.

A. In order to be perfect, pure and Holy as He is Holy. We cannot do this ourselves we must depend upon Him. It is a privlege accorded only to the children of God.

Q. It is like you paid your house off and the bank handed you the deed free and clear. Then the next day you go to the bank and continue to make payments on something that is paid in full. Isn’t that what you are doing?

A. Your analogy does not apply to the spiritual, salvation, justification and purification. No, it is not what we do because we are completely incapable of atoning for the ETERNAL consequences of sin since we are mere finite creatures.

Q. Jesus paid it all!

A. Then how do you understand this verse?

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

Q. You don’t have to do anything else! Just be his servant.

A. There are hundreds of verses that instruct us in how we must live, what we must do and not do etc. Can you show me a scripture that nullifies all of these?

I Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and (AC)to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did…. 9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness…. 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him…the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.…24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father

I Jn 3:3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure….6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7…He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning….9 he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother….11 We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother….Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him….17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.

This is just three chapters in I John and does not even scratch the surface of the directives given to us in all of the New Testament. For Catholics, we are taught that everyone commits lesser sin or venial sin throughout their lives, but what John is talking about here is the commission of serious, deadly, or mortal sin. This differentiation between mortal and venial sin is found in I john 5:16-18.

Because Protestants do not admit there is any difference in the gravity of sin they are forced to explain away these passages in I John about not sinning if you are a Christian. We are able to avoid deadly sin but venial sin is another story b/c sometime we commit them without thinking or on purpose. All mortal sin is on purpose.

Q. We simply Live for him.

A. Yes, we should live for Him…but this too is “doing something”. So, you see, even you believe in doing something.