This is the best explanation of why we have so much trouble understanding the Trinity. Why it is a mystery to us.
Bread From Heaven: Mary began to exist about 15-16 years before the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. She began to exist at the time of her Immaculate Conception as a result of the union of her parents and God saving her from the stain of original sin.
Jonah: Does that mean that God the Father and all the old testament people pre-existed the Queen of Heaven?
Bread From Heaven: Yes, God the Father and all the Old Testament people absolutely existed before Mary, Queen of Heaven.
Jonah: King Jesus was around for eternity, just incarnated around 2012 years ago…so he pre-existed his own Queen Mother? How would you spin this one?
Bread From Heaven: Yes, Jesus the second person of the Trinity, is eternal and therefore existed before the mother of His Flesh. There was no Queen of Heaven before Mary’s Assumption into Heaven.
The Holy Trinity is Eternal. Human beings are created creatures. Once created, our souls are eternal even though our bodies die as a result of The Fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus came to enable our salvation and Eternal life in Heaven. If we reject Him we will have Eternal Hell.
To read the post that sparked these questions click here–>Mary, Queen of Heaven
Reblogged with permission from protestanterrors.com
To those who do not believe in Apostolic tradition, but in Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura):
The Bible was not put under one cover until the Councils of Hippo (393) and 3rd Council of Carthage (397) accepted the official list of books (click here for the actual Council text and scroll down to see the list of books in the Canon at that time, which is the same as used by the Catholic Church today). Not for over 1000 years after these early Councils was the printing press invented (1450), so Bible manuscripts were quite rare and costly before the printing press came about. Between 397 and 1450 then, how did most people learn about the contents of Scripture, and who was the authoritative figure for the early Church during these centuries? The authority clearly could not have been the Bible, but clearly was the Church Herself who preached it to the faithful. So how can Scripture have been our only guide for the centuries before copies of the Bible were readily available, and were the people who lived during those centuries all damned because they did not have access to Scripture?
Consider this verse from Scripture: “Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name” John 20:30-31. What else does this tell us than Jesus did and said other things that were not recorded in Scripture? Are we really to think that anything Jesus did or said that didn’t make it into the books of Scripture are false or should not be adhered to?
Consider the verse, “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written” John 21:25. Clearly there are many things Jesus said and did that were passed on as tradition (by word of mouth) and did not make it into the books of Scripture.
Nowhere in Scripture do we see references to Jesus writing anything down during His public life, nor does Scripture show that He ever asked His Apostles to write down what He was teaching either. If Scripture were the ONLY resource we should have for our salvation, surely Jesus and His Apostles would have written constantly, but they did not. So while Scripture is essential, tradition is also essential.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say Scripture alone should be accepted as revelation, and it certainly does not say we should condemn Apostolic tradition. Look all through the Gospels and you will see nothing spoken against tradition except for traditions which are human or against Scripture. Why do the Protestant reformers add this to Our Lord’s words? It is forbidden to add anything to Scripture, as it is to take anything away from it. Why do the Protestant reformers also take away the traditions which are expressly authorized?
Consider the verse, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:14. What else does this tell us than the Apostles spread the word of God not only through Epistles, but also by WORD, and that we should hold to the traditions which we are taught?
Any unwritten Apostolic doctrine we call Tradition. Consider the verse, “If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.” 1 Corinthians 11:34. This clearly shows St. Paul writing important words to the Corinthians, then stating he will “set the rest in order” when he comes, yet we do not have writing about them elsewhere. What he said then, will it be lost to the Church? No, it has come down through tradition.
Consider the verse, “Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall be with you, and speak face to face: that your joy may be full.” 2 John 1:12. St. John had something worthy of being written yet he chose to speak instead. Instead of Scripture, he has made tradition.
Consider the verse, “Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.” 2 Timothy 1:13. This is clearly St. Paul recommending to St. Timothy an unwritten Apostolic word. This is tradition!
Also consider the verse, “And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.” 2 Timothy 2:2. What is this but the Apostle speaking, the witnesses relating, and St. Timothy teaching, followed by these teaching others? This is clearly tradition.
Consider the verse, “I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now” John 16:12. When did He say these things which He had to say? Was it all written? It is also said that He was forty days with them teaching them of the Kingdom of God, but we have neither all of His apparitions nor everything He told them during that time.
Consider the verses, “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matthew 28:20, and “He that heareth you, heareth me” Luke 10:16, etc. This clearly shows the Apostles teaching is true revelation.
Q. I cannot find the word Trinity in the Bible.
A. That is because the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible. The Doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in order to explain and synthesize diverse scriptures. To be brief, for instance in the very first book of the Bible:
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, …
After the revelations of Jesus in the NT we see this verse as signifying the Blessed Trinity. But it was a very subtle hint.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Jesus claims preexistence and claims for himself THE NAME OF GOD given to Moses in
Ex.3: 13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO AM“; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”
Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Jesus claims to be the Son of God. A son is of the same exact nature as the father therefore Jesus is divine, the second person of the Blessed Trinity and in Matthew.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Again we have here an allusion to Trinity-One God in Three persons—because “name” is singular followed by three names.
Q. If you believe that Jesus is God then how can God die?
A. The Trinity, the Godhead did not die. But Jesus was God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. Jesus assumed a human nature from the flesh of Mary and became incarnate. Now Jesus was not only divine He was also human. He was God/Man. He had two natures and two wills. The God/Man, Jesus was killed on the cross but the divine nature of Jesus resurrected the human nature of Jesus after three days in the tomb.
Our souls cannot die either, only our bodies die.
Q. Jesus looks like a human being, why did he die for sins?
A. The consequence of sin is death. The sin of Adam and Eve was a sin against an infinite God and therefore it was an infinite sin. This sin could only be atoned for by a man because it was a man that sinned. But it also needed to be atoned for by an infinite being because the sin was infinite.
For instance, it is wrong to slap my brother but it is exponentially more wrong to slap my father. The action is the same in both cases but the sin’s gravity increases greatly when it is against my father versus against my brother.
No mere man, even though sinless could ever atone for an infinite sin because man is finite. So, to restore mankind to the possibility of friendship with God, God the Son assumed a human nature and atoned with his human body and His infinite divinity for the infinite sin of Adam and Eve.
Q. What I believe is: Jesus is just a messenger like Ibrahim, Moses,etc from God, for us and those before us to show us the right path.
A. Then Jesus lied when He said, “Before Abraham was born, I Am”? (John 8:58) Taking the Divine Name.
And, Jesus must have thought he was God because He also allowed Thomas to worship Him. (John 20:28) So, He must have been crazy.
If Jesus was not God then He was either a liar or a lunatic as C.S. Lewis has said.
“But let’s not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Mere Christianity Book II Ch. 3
Q. God is the creator of the whole universe everything that we see and we don’t see is created by Him.
A. I agree.
Q. He doesn’t look like His creations. He doesn’t resemble anything you see. there is nothing like Him. He is unique. The only one The eternal.
A. I agree as long as we are talking about God before the Incarnation second person of the Trinity.
But I must ask you, could God assume a human nature so that He would be fully God the Son and at the same time fully human as well? Two natures, divine and human joined hypostatically? Could God the omnipotent do that if He wanted to?
Do you believe in the Trinity? If not, some of the problem with understanding the Christian Faith lies there.
BFHU: God never married a human person.
Q. If God never married, how did he get a son?
A. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit existed from all eternity as Spirit. God the Son, co-equal and co-eternal and of the exact same divine nature as the Father and Holy Spirit, joined Himself, in time,≈2007 years ago, to a fully human nature. The God/Man Jesus was born of Mary fully God and fully man joined in the hypostatic union. He had two natures, human and divine, and two wills in ONE Person, Jesus Christ is God the Son.
We speak poetically of the Holy Spirit being the spouse of Mary but in a spiritual miraculous way only. Not in a physical, earthly way. Because Jesus was fully man, He took flesh from Mary and joined it to His divine, pre-existent divine nature.
We say in the creed that, that we believe in Christ the son of God…begotten not made… not to express birth order in time, because God is OUTSIDE of time. He resides in Eternity. The Trinity is co-existent, neither existed before the other.
When we talk about Jesus being a son and begotten it is an attempt to express that Jesus is OF THE SAME NATURE AS THE FATHER. When we make something or create something it is of a different nature than we are. Our creations are NOT human. But when we beget, we beget a being like us in nature–human.
Q. Is there another way to have a son other than marrying !!?
A. For humans we cannot have a child without sexual intercourse. In our immoral society this occurs without the benefit of marriage in too many instances. Mary the Mother of God was the only exception. She conceived by the power of God. So the answer to your question is “YES”. With God all things are possible–Mt 19:26
Q. What about Mary, isn’t she the mother of Jesus ?
Q. You believe that Mary is the mother of jesus and that Jesus is the son of God, and that God never married, however; he has a son. my question is how could this happen ?
A. In Catholic Theology Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus IS God so Mary is the Mother of God. However, she did not pre-exist nor did she create God the eternal Son.
How did this happen? Well, God has the power to create all things in the whole universe out of nothing so it was easy for him to create a fertilized egg in Mary’s womb and then Jesus united Himself to this human being.
Q. Why there are many contradictions about Jesus. Many Christians say that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time.
A. That Jesus was fully God and Full man at the same time is accurate, authentic Christian theology.
Q. Did Jesus have a human soul?
Q. If so then he was a complete human being with the Spirit of God dwelling in him. But the spirit of God in a human does not make the human into God. Notice that Barnabas was also full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:24).
A. Jesus was fully human and fully divine at the same time. But it is an error to believe that the Spirit of God dwelled in Him. No. HE WAS GOD. The spirit of God indwelling a human person does not make a human into God. You are exactly right about that.
When we talk about Jesus we are not talking about a human being who was conceived and born and then at some point was indwelt with the Spirit of God. Not at all. What we are talking about is the Triune Godhead, uncreated, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
Q. If we put three cakes together to make a bigger cake then we end up with a bigger cake. So when we put the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together do we not get a bigger God than any of the individual three?
A. No. There are several analogies to try to express this but they all break down but can be helpful at grasping the Mystery of the Trinity a little bit more. Here is one:
Water- The nature of water is H2O-but it can be liquid, steam, and ice. Three yet one.
Q. Others believe that Jesus is the son of God, another group believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit are one, though this calculation 1+1+1 =3 is logically and mathematically wrong.
A. No, 1+1+1= 3 is correct when we speak of the three persons of the Trinity. This God is three persons, but one God and yet each person is God. So, then when we speak of the Nature of God that all share, the mathematical equation is 1 x 1 x 1=1. This is a great mystery revealed to us by Jesus Christ. Like I said elsewhere, if we could fully understand the God of the Universe we would always suspect that we made Him up. As C.S. Lewis said,
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
Q. Sorry for these questions, but I am trying to reach the truth, I have a lot of questions that I don’t know the answer, this is why I am here, writing this message at 04:52 in the morning!!!
I would like you to be patient and convincing in dealing with my answers!
A. I have attempted to explain as best I can a mystery. But you will not be able to believe the truth unless God gives you the gift of Faith. If you wish to find the truth please pray,
“Come Holy Spirit, and fill the heart of your child, and kindle in me the fire of Your Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit. Oh God, Who by the light of the Holy Spirit instructed the hearts of the faithful, Grant, that by the same Spirit I may be truly wise and ever rejoice in His consolation. I ask this through Christ Our Lord. Amen.”