The Communion of the Saints


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JOE: The excuse that “praying to”Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false. No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on. In fact it is prohibited to speak to spirit as per leviticus. Besides this, Jesus is the intercessor. Jesus is God so the excuse of askin someone “closer” to God than us is blown right out of the water! You are not God and therefore cannot say for a fact who is in heaven so praying to anyone but the Father, son or holy spirit is IDOLATRY! Jesus tells you plainly to repent or else he will remove your candlestick. Worshipping the Queen of Heaven is ancient babylonian paganism and addressed in Jeremiah. May all you catholics repent of this wickedness, please!!!

BFHU: Dear Joe, I find it amusing that you think that:

 “praying to Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false.

But, it happens to be the truth. You, of course, are free to reject the truth about our Catholic Faith but you should be honest that you just reject it and not that it is weak and false. How can it be “weak” if it is true and how do you prove it is false? You also say,

No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on.

OK, but why does this matter? The Trinity is not defined or mentioned anywhere in the Bible either. Neither is the Incarnation of Jesus, therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses see themselves as perfectly Biblical. But, of even more significance is the fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible either. It is a new doctrine, invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago.

You are correct that contacting the dead for OCCULT reasons, seeking hidden knowledge, is forbidden as DIVINIATION. But asking for intercessory prayer is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible. Neither is it forbidden to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us who are alive in Heaven or on Earth. And asking for prayer does not equal divination. Protestants jump to the erroneous conclusion that “Praying to the Saints” equals divination without ever exploring what we actually mean by it. They assume it MUST be DIVINATION, and we all know what happens when we assume…..

Also, I am afraid that you are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the intercessor, if you mean, only He can intercede on our behalf because that is not found anywhere in the Bible either. Because Protestants only “pray” to God it seems to them that asking for our brothers and sisters in Heaven to intercede for us (for short pray for us), gets confused in their minds with idolatry. But asking for intercessory prayer is not idolatry anymore than it is Divination. We are exhorted to:

James 5:16 …pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

It doesn’t say, pray for one another until death do you part. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Was that idolatry? Are prayer chains some form of idolatry?

In order for a person to be declared to be in Heaven and a Saint, a supernatural miracle must occur as a direct result of someone asking the “would be saint” to pray for them after they have died….the miracle has to occur after the would-be Saint is dead. These miracles are then, thoroughly investigated by scientists, medical doctors, theologians, etc and finally by the Pope. The Catholic Church does not want to look foolish by declaring something to be a miracle that was faked. This miracle is taken to prove God’s power through the prayers of the Saint. The Saint prays but God acts.

We do not believe the Saints are closer to God than Jesus but closer than many(most) of us still here in this life.

We do not worship the Queen of Heaven. That would be idolatry and heretical. We merely honor her as the Mother of Our LORD and the Queen Mother of Heaven.

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Is Praying to the Saints Necromancy?


Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.

Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.


Dan: Regarding Praying to Mary!
“What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to the dead?”
Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

BREAD FROM HEAVEN: I am sure that your pastor taught you this and used this verse to back up his denunciation of the Catholic Church. But, what is condemned is DIVINATION-(the occult practice of trying to get information from the dead in order to make decisions) NOT Intercessory prayer requests.

So the purpose for speaking to the dead when practicing DIVINATION is SEEKING OCCULT INFORMATION.

Let’s define our terms.

Definition of OCCULT

1: not revealed : secret
2: not easily apprehended or understood : abstruse, mysterious
3: hidden from view

Witchcraft

Witchcraft

Definition of DIVINATION: Practice of discerning the hidden significance of events and foretelling the future. Divination is found in all societies, ancient and modern, though methods vary. In the West, psychics claim innate ability to predict the future, and horoscopes, palm reading, and tarot cards are popular methods of divination. Other methods involve or have involved interpreting dreams, discovering omens in natural events, reading the entrails of animals, casting lots, and consulting oracles. Divination has long been viewed as the province of specially gifted persons, such as prophets, shamans, and magicians. See also astrology.

When we ask the dead (but alive in Heaven) to pray for us we are asking for intercessory prayer. We are asking them to pray for us. We are not asking them for information in order to make decisions.images-1

If you notice your quote above:

Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”

Consults has a very different meaning than “speak to”.

Definiton of Consults: to ask the advice or opinion of

Exactly as the I Chron. passage says: Saul “consulted a medium for guidance


And here is the Deuteronomy passage:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Definition of NECROMANCY: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

I Sam 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.

As you can see, DIVINATION through necromancy, consulting a medium is the seeking of hidden (occult) information for decision making or attempts to control events. This is what God condemns because we are to trust Him; seek guidance only from Him. This is because God knows that the so called “dead” consulted in necromancy are not really the spirits of a human person but DEMONS disguised as the intended person.

A DEMON would NEVER join us in praying to God for anything. Therefore when we ask someone, in Heaven, to pray for us we do not have to worry about contacting Demons. They lose any power over us. We ask for prayers only not for information. Therefore, we also do not need to be afraid we will be led astray by Demons either because we give them no power to give us any information.

necromancyIt is very sloppy exegesis to tell people that Divination is the same thing as asking for intercessory prayer and is therefore condemned by God in the OT.

Are Roman Catholics are Pagan?


Under this sign you shall Conquer!

Under this sign you shall Conquer!

Julia: you’ve just proven that you don’t really know about your religion.. do you know about Constantine the great?? he is the one who invented the Roman catholic religion about 400yrs after Jesus Christ, go do some research..

BFHU: Dear Julia. I am afraid you have been taught error by your leaders. It is true that Constantine ruled about 400 years after Jesus but he most certainly did not invent the Roman Catholic Church. He converted to the Catholic Faith and legalized Christianity so we could come out of the catacombs and take our place as citizens. He ended the centuries of persecutions endured by the early Christians.

As for the Roman attached to Catholic, that was not started for another 1000 years after Constantine. The British, who left the Catholic Church and adhered to the church founded by Henry VIII, the Church of England, called the Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church to denigrate it as a foreign “Roman” church. We do not call ourselves the Roman Catholic Church but merely the Catholic Church.

Julia: if you were a real christian your faith would be based on what is written, because this is what Jesus himself said that we must do.

BFHU: Why so uncharitable? I have to disagree with you here. Jesus NEVER said our faith must be based only on what is written. If you think He did then please supply us with the scripture.

Julia: in Isaiah 8, it is written ‘shall the people of God ask a Dead person to intercede in favor of living ones??

BFHU: You have misquoted the passage in Isaiah. Here is what it says In the NASB, a Protestant translation:

Is 8:19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Please note that it does NOT say what you said it says:
shall the people of God ask a Dead person to intercede in favor of living ones?

In the context the Prophet is talking about CONSULTING mediums and spiritists instead of GOD. They (medium and spiritists) are diviners and therefore an abomination to God and alive on the Earth in Time but Dead in their sins. This passage is not about asking those who have died in this life and are alive in Heaven to intercede for us.

Again you have been misled by the commentary of a leader who then quoted this passage or misquoted it just as you did, to try to prove his point.

Julia: Go read exodus 20:4 and understand what is written about statues or symbols, you shall not make any representations, then you shall not bow before them..

BFHU: I am very familiar with what it says in Ex. 20. But this passage is not about having images in Church or simply kneeling in front of them in prayer. This passage is about making images and then WORSIPPING THEM.

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God…

We, just like the Jews, in their Temple, have images but we do not WORSHIP THEM. Please click on this post for more information–>Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols. Where you will find all sorts of images of things in Heaven and on Earth in the Jewish Temple.

Julia: 1 timothy 2:5, jesus is the ONLY intermediary, the only intercessor, the only one who will plead for us before God,

BFHU: Here is what the scripture actually says:

I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Jesus is the ONE MEDIATOR of our salvation. It does not say that He is the only intercessor or the only one who will pray for the salvation of the lost. If you were to actually hold to that then, “by your tradition you nullify the word of God.”

And here are a couple of the verses your tradition would nullify.


I John 5: 16
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Here are hundreds of examples of Intercessory prayer in Scripture—>Intercessory Prayer And they are NOT all Jesus.

Julia: he gave his life for us, not Mary!! we are saved by the grace of God,

BFHU: We agree. All Catholics agree too. Whoever told you that we think Mary gave her life for us?????

Julia: we do not have anything to do with anybody who died, when they die, they are gone whether in paradise or in hell, they cannot come back in dreams or in apparitions, the apostle Paul warns us against apparitions…

BFHU: Where does it say any of this in Scripture? I know that you have tried to quote scripture for some of your points but they have not held up to scrutiny. Here, you have no scripture.

Julia: a catholic bible contains more than 66 books, and the bible as it should really be contains only 66 books.

BFHU: By what authority do you claim that the Bible should only have 66 books? Please take a look at this post.–>Did The Catholic Church Add Books to the Bible?
Actually, first the Jews and then Martin Luther removed 7 Books from the Old Testament. Therefore Protestant Bibles are lacking in Old Testament Scripture.

Julia: Revalation 22:18-19 ’18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.’

BFHU: If the way you are interpreting Revelation is correct then this verse in the OT makes the whole book of Revelation illegitimate. Because thousands of years before Revelation was written God said:

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I think you are not interpreting the Revelation passage correctly. It is most likely only referring to the Book of Revelation; not the whole Bible.

Julia the roman catholic religion contains a lot of pagan practices as paganism is its origin, this is why it is called Roman catholic, not Christianism, its origin is from a Roman religion!!

BFHU: I have already addressed the Roman issue. Please tell us what practice do we have that is pagan? And please supply credible historical references, not just opinion.

You most likely misunderstand b/c many anti-Catholic speakers and writers attempt to claim that Catholic practices are rooted in paganism. But they are slanderers. Our Church was founded by Jesus Christ the Son of God 2000 years ago.Protestant churches were all founded by rebellious men. They all contain very much truth which they took with them out of the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church contains all the fullness of Christian Truth.

Julia: JESUS is the way, the truth and the life, HE is the word became flesh, to serve him we must rely on his word, to know the truth, we must rely on his word, this is why the bible exists, we cannot rely on our opinion to serve the creator of all things as he has already planned what we must do and what we mustn’t do, it’s all written in his word.

BFHU: I agree. And there is nothing in our faith that conflicts with anything in Sacred Scripture. Our beliefs merely conflict with Protestant traditions and Protestant interpretations of Scripture. But, of course I would have to disagree that “it’s all written in his word” just as St. John said …it is not all written down:

John 20:30
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Constantine’s Vision

Catholics Are Just Wrong


imagesAman: It is still the pope that had the final word on which books made it. Which is the most distubing thing Ive learned in a while. In history, and the present, how good is the track record for cardinals, bishops and popes? There isnt enough room on this page to count all the scandals.

BFHU: Hmmmmm. You are right. It would be very disturbing to Sola Scriptura Protestants. Since you do not trust mere men…..but wait! All of the authors of all of the books of Sacred Scripture were mere men. Isn’t that disturbing to you as well? So, how could you trust Scripture to be TRUE since it is written by mere men who were also subject to sin?

Aman:I dont know about you but I dont trust a man, and I repeat a man, that surrounds himself with the luxuries and wealth of the world, wears red prada shoes, expensive jewelery,wears a hat that originally was designed for pagan leaders for worship to their fish god Dagon.Billions of dollars has been spent to build the worlds most lavish churches instead of using it feed and shelter the hungry and poor.

BFHU: Let me clear some things up for you. All the wealth at the Vatican and the museums and the beautiful Catholic churches around the world were donations by the faithful to offer things and build churches of great beauty. You know someone in scripture also complained about the expense “wasted” on Jesus. 

The Precious Ointment

Mark 14:While He was in Bethany at the home of Simon the leper, and reclining at the table, there came a woman with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume of pure nard; and she broke the vial and poured it over His head. But some were indignantly remarking to one another, “Why has this perfume been wasted? For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, (Nearly a year’s worth of wages) and the money given to the poor.” And they were scolding her. 6 But Jesus said, “Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me. For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.

Bishops hat

The hats worn by bishops is very odd. But they are to look like the flames of fire that fell on the apostles on Pentecost.

Aman: Pretty sure this is not what jesus had in mind. Tell me one story where Jesus put money or scripture in front of caring for others in need. Show me one description of jesus wearing expensive jewelery or expensive clothes. Think as if you were Jesus and then ask yourself if you would accept the corrupt nature of the Vatican and its hierarchy.

BFHU: The Popes personally do not desire to wear expensive anything. These things are given to the pope to honor the vicar of Christ on Earth. To honor Jesus through the man chosen as pope. And as we see above Jesus certainly accepted a gift of precious oil as the woman sought to honor Him. I think you are imposing your own opinion on Jesus rather than reading scripture  and letting it form your faith.

Aman:Why would the pope pray to the Madonna for protection and pray to statues instead of god???!! Might as well build a golden calf in the middle of St peters Square for people to worship as well. This is sounding familiar. God didnt like it the first time people prayed and worshiped to statues, what makes you think hes ok with that now?

BFHU: The pope and Catholics do not worship statues. You are mistaken because you are judging us based on your own bias. We believe in asking for intercessory prayer from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Unlike Protestants we know that those who died in Christ are alive in Heaven and we also ask for their prayers. That is all we are doing when we pray in front of a statue or picture of a Saint. And we know God is OK with that b/c He answers our prayers more quickly through His Saints. If it was not efficacious we would have stopped long ago.

Aman: Popes and priests cannot forgive you for your sins. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT!

BFHU: Where does it say this in Scripture? Wait there is something about this in scripture.

Mark 2:And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

How do you explain this verse where Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive or not forgive sin?

JOHN 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Soul Sleep


Lola: 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Holy Bible state that speaking to the dead is wrong? Lucifer and a third of the angels were cast out of heaven to earth. This in a way has become deceitful to some people. Satan and his angels take the form of of these dead saints or these Mary sightings opening a door to deceive Gods people into thinking the souls of these saints and mary are roaming on this earth. Praying to these saints and Mary feels like im praying to a dead person. When one dies they enter a deep sleep. The dead know nothing at this point. So why pray to a saint or Mary. She has no say in your salvation, only your Heavenly Father has control of that.

Bread From Heaven: Here is the passage you are thinking of:

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.

But this is not about asking the dead for intercessory prayer. This passage deals with various forms of DIVINATION. Asking a living member of the Body of Christ who is in Heaven to pray for you is nothing like Divination. It is merely intercessory prayer. So, it is absolutely NOT forbidden in scripture.

But you are correct that the demons can try to deceive people with apparitions, voices, seances, contacting the dead etc. I totally agree with you. People of all faiths can be taken in by these things. However, the Catholic Church is not taken in by them.

Any apparition is nothing but a private event. They play NO role in our faith once delivered to the saints. Catholics are completely free to ignore and reject all apparitions, even those approved by the Church. And those approved by the Church undergo a rigorous examination of all that was said by Mary or a Saint for anything heretical. If heresy is found it is denounced and Catholics are forbidden to follow it in any way. Also, any purported miracles are thoroughly examined by scientist and physicians and not by Catholic men of science either. If these are found to be frauds the miracle is denounced. But, in some cases there are authentic miracles, such as at Lourdes, and some frauds in the mix. So demons, who are ever seeking to deceive the faithful, no doubt take advantage of anything and everything they can.

We do not believe that we enter into a sleep until Jesus comes again after death. We believe that after death comes judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

We believe that at death our soul, which is immortal, goes to judgement and is sent to Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. At the second coming our risen bodies are reunited with our souls.  And why do you believe that our souls sleep? What scripture? Sleep is used as a euphemism for death. But I don’t know of a passage that says when we die our souls sleep until the second coming. Do you?

Mary and the Saints Are Dead



Q. Didn’t jesus say that he would raise all people on the last day(jhn 6:40)? So how can you pray(ask) mary to pray to God as if she is in his presence yet she’s dead!

Bread From Heaven: Well, it is really very simple. We do not believe Mary and the Saints are dead. We believe that our bodies die but our souls are eternal. Our souls will never die. After death our soul goes immediately to be judged. We are then sent to Heaven (by way of a purification, if necessary) or Hell. At the end of time Jesus will resurrect our bodies and they will once again be joined to our souls in Heaven or Hell.

Even Jesus said,

Matthew 22:32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Therefore we do believe that Mary and all the Saints are in the very presence of God and are able to intercede for us. I hope this helps you understand.

Where is Prayer to Saints in History?


Bl. Herman Joseph (boy holding apples), St. Stephen of Hungary (King), St. Charles Borromeo (Kneeling Cardinal), St. Dominic (holding lily), St. Anselm (Standing Bishop), St. Nothburga (Sickle over her head).


Simon: I understand that catholics don’t pray to Mary or believe that she can answer prayers but where does it say in the Bible that Mary can hear our prayers and/or intercede for us?

Bread From Heaven: As I am sure you already know there is not a scripture that says, “Mary can hear our prayers and/or intercede for us?” I also will ask you:

Where in the Bible does it say that all spiritual truth must be found in Scripture alone?

Simon:And If your response is that everything/all spiritual truth can’t be found in the Bible then can you provide me with the source of where this tradition that has been passed down from the very first church?

Bread From Heaven: I cannot show you evidence “from the very first church” but you will find numerous quotes from the Fathers of the Church in the first centuries of the Church, regarding Prayers to Saints in my post:

How Long Has Intercession of the Saints been in place?

Simon:And further more can you provide sources that evidences that God agrees, encourages and commands this?

Bread From Heaven: After 2000 years the faithful have found that God answers these prayers of the Saints. If He disapproved He would not answer them and the practice would die out if only prayers directly to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit were more effective.

Simon:Lastly I’m unclear whether catholics believe that Mary’s prayer for you is more powerful than anyone elses prayer for you? and if so why? as she is human just like you and me.

Bread From Heaven: Yes, Mary is human just like you and me with one difference. She was saved from sin by Jesus at her conception, and through the power of the Holy Spirit and her obedience she never sinned. The Scriptures say:

James 5:16 The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

And Blessed Mary is the most Righteous merely human being in Heaven and the beloved mother of Our Lord.