JOE: The excuse that “praying to”Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false. No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on. In fact it is prohibited to speak to spirit as per leviticus. Besides this, Jesus is the intercessor. Jesus is God so the excuse of askin someone “closer” to God than us is blown right out of the water! You are not God and therefore cannot say for a fact who is in heaven so praying to anyone but the Father, son or holy spirit is IDOLATRY! Jesus tells you plainly to repent or else he will remove your candlestick. Worshipping the Queen of Heaven is ancient babylonian paganism and addressed in Jeremiah. May all you catholics repent of this wickedness, please!!!
BFHU: Dear Joe, I find it amusing that you think that:
“praying to Mary is the same as asking her to pray for us is weak and false.
But, it happens to be the truth. You, of course, are free to reject the truth about our Catholic Faith but you should be honest that you just reject it and not that it is weak and false. How can it be “weak” if it is true and how do you prove it is false? You also say,
No where in the whole Bible has anyone Ever, Ever prayed to people passed on.
OK, but why does this matter? The Trinity is not defined or mentioned anywhere in the Bible either. Neither is the Incarnation of Jesus, therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses see themselves as perfectly Biblical. But, of even more significance is the fact that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible either. It is a new doctrine, invented by Martin Luther a mere 500 years ago.
You are correct that contacting the dead for OCCULT reasons, seeking hidden knowledge, is forbidden as DIVINIATION. But asking for intercessory prayer is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible. Neither is it forbidden to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us who are alive in Heaven or on Earth. And asking for prayer does not equal divination. Protestants jump to the erroneous conclusion that “Praying to the Saints” equals divination without ever exploring what we actually mean by it. They assume it MUST be DIVINATION, and we all know what happens when we assume…..
Also, I am afraid that you are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the intercessor, if you mean, only He can intercede on our behalf because that is not found anywhere in the Bible either. Because Protestants only “pray” to God it seems to them that asking for our brothers and sisters in Heaven to intercede for us (for short pray for us), gets confused in their minds with idolatry. But asking for intercessory prayer is not idolatry anymore than it is Divination. We are exhorted to:
James 5:16 …pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
It doesn’t say, pray for one another until death do you part. Have you ever asked anyone else to pray for you? Was that idolatry? Are prayer chains some form of idolatry?
In order for a person to be declared to be in Heaven and a Saint, a supernatural miracle must occur as a direct result of someone asking the “would be saint” to pray for them after they have died….the miracle has to occur after the would-be Saint is dead. These miracles are then, thoroughly investigated by scientists, medical doctors, theologians, etc and finally by the Pope. The Catholic Church does not want to look foolish by declaring something to be a miracle that was faked. This miracle is taken to prove God’s power through the prayers of the Saint. The Saint prays but God acts.
We do not believe the Saints are closer to God than Jesus but closer than many(most) of us still here in this life.
We do not worship the Queen of Heaven. That would be idolatry and heretical. We merely honor her as the Mother of Our LORD and the Queen Mother of Heaven.
Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.
Dan: Regarding Praying to Mary!
“What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to the dead?”
Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.
BREAD FROM HEAVEN: I am sure that your pastor taught you this and used this verse to back up his denunciation of the Catholic Church. But, what is condemned is DIVINATION-(the occult practice of trying to get information from the dead in order to make decisions) NOT Intercessory prayer requests.
So the purpose for speaking to the dead when practicing DIVINATION is SEEKING OCCULT INFORMATION.
Let’s define our terms.
Definition of OCCULT
1: not revealed : secret
2: not easily apprehended or understood : abstruse, mysterious
3: hidden from view
Witchcraft
Definition of DIVINATION: Practice of discerning the hidden significance of events and foretelling the future. Divination is found in all societies, ancient and modern, though methods vary. In the West, psychics claim innate ability to predict the future, and horoscopes, palm reading, and tarot cards are popular methods of divination. Other methods involve or have involved interpreting dreams, discovering omens in natural events, reading the entrails of animals, casting lots, and consulting oracles. Divination has long been viewed as the province of specially gifted persons, such as prophets, shamans, and magicians. See also astrology.
When we ask the dead (but alive in Heaven) to pray for us we are asking for intercessory prayer. We are asking them to pray for us. We are not asking them for information in order to make decisions.
If you notice your quote above:
Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”
Consults has a very different meaning than “speak to”.
Definiton of Consults: to ask the advice or opinion of
Exactly as the I Chron. passage says: Saul “consulted a medium for guidance”
And here is the Deuteronomy passage:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
Definition of NECROMANCY: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
I Sam 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
As you can see, DIVINATION through necromancy, consulting a medium is the seeking of hidden (occult) information for decision making or attempts to control events. This is what God condemns because we are to trust Him; seek guidance only from Him. This is because God knows that the so called “dead” consulted in necromancy are not really the spirits of a human person but DEMONS disguised as the intended person.
A DEMON would NEVER join us in praying to God for anything. Therefore when we ask someone, in Heaven, to pray for us we do not have to worry about contacting Demons. They lose any power over us. We ask for prayers only not for information. Therefore, we also do not need to be afraid we will be led astray by Demons either because we give them no power to give us any information.
It is very sloppy exegesis to tell people that Divination is the same thing as asking for intercessory prayer and is therefore condemned by God in the OT.
Julia: you’ve just proven that you don’t really know about your religion.. do you know about Constantine the great?? he is the one who invented the Roman catholic religion about 400yrs after Jesus Christ, go do some research..
BFHU: Dear Julia. I am afraid you have been taught error by your leaders. It is true that Constantine ruled about 400 years after Jesus but he most certainly did not invent the Roman Catholic Church. He converted to the Catholic Faith and legalized Christianity so we could come out of the catacombs and take our place as citizens. He ended the centuries of persecutions endured by the early Christians.
As for the Roman attached to Catholic, that was not started for another 1000 years after Constantine. The British, who left the Catholic Church and adhered to the church founded by Henry VIII, the Church of England, called the Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church to denigrate it as a foreign “Roman” church. We do not call ourselves the Roman Catholic Church but merely the Catholic Church.
Julia: if you were a real christian your faith would be based on what is written, because this is what Jesus himself said that we must do.
BFHU: Why so uncharitable? I have to disagree with you here. Jesus NEVER said our faith must be based only on what is written. If you think He did then please supply us with the scripture.
Julia: in Isaiah 8, it is written ‘shall the people of God ask a Dead person to intercede in favor of living ones??
BFHU: You have misquoted the passage in Isaiah. Here is what it says In the NASB, a Protestant translation:
Is 8:19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Please note that it does NOT say what you said it says:
shall the people of God ask a Dead person to intercede in favor of living ones?
In the context the Prophet is talking about CONSULTING mediums and spiritists instead of GOD. They (medium and spiritists) are diviners and therefore an abomination to God and alive on the Earth in Time but Dead in their sins. This passage is not about asking those who have died in this life and are alive in Heaven to intercede for us.
Again you have been misled by the commentary of a leader who then quoted this passage or misquoted it just as you did, to try to prove his point.
Julia: Go read exodus 20:4 and understand what is written about statues or symbols, you shall not make any representations, then you shall not bow before them..
BFHU: I am very familiar with what it says in Ex. 20. But this passage is not about having images in Church or simply kneeling in front of them in prayer. This passage is about making images and then WORSIPPING THEM.
Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God…
We, just like the Jews, in their Temple, have images but we do not WORSHIP THEM. Please click on this post for more information–>Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols. Where you will find all sorts of images of things in Heaven and on Earth in the Jewish Temple.
Julia: 1 timothy 2:5, jesus is the ONLY intermediary, the only intercessor, the only one who will plead for us before God,
BFHU: Here is what the scripture actually says:
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Jesus is the ONE MEDIATOR of our salvation. It does not say that He is the only intercessor or the only one who will pray for the salvation of the lost. If you were to actually hold to that then, “by your tradition you nullify the word of God.”
And here are a couple of the verses your tradition would nullify.
I John 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
Here are hundreds of examples of Intercessory prayer in Scripture—>Intercessory Prayer And they are NOT all Jesus.
Julia: he gave his life for us, not Mary!! we are saved by the grace of God,
BFHU: We agree. All Catholics agree too. Whoever told you that we think Mary gave her life for us?????
Julia: we do not have anything to do with anybody who died, when they die, they are gone whether in paradise or in hell, they cannot come back in dreams or in apparitions, the apostle Paul warns us against apparitions…
BFHU: Where does it say any of this in Scripture? I know that you have tried to quote scripture for some of your points but they have not held up to scrutiny. Here, you have no scripture.
Julia: a catholic bible contains more than 66 books, and the bible as it should really be contains only 66 books.
BFHU: By what authority do you claim that the Bible should only have 66 books? Please take a look at this post.–>Did The Catholic Church Add Books to the Bible?
Actually, first the Jews and then Martin Luther removed 7 Books from the Old Testament. Therefore Protestant Bibles are lacking in Old Testament Scripture.
Julia: Revalation 22:18-19 ’18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.’
BFHU: If the way you are interpreting Revelation is correct then this verse in the OT makes the whole book of Revelation illegitimate. Because thousands of years before Revelation was written God said:
Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
I think you are not interpreting the Revelation passage correctly. It is most likely only referring to the Book of Revelation; not the whole Bible.
Julia the roman catholic religion contains a lot of pagan practices as paganism is its origin, this is why it is called Roman catholic, not Christianism, its origin is from a Roman religion!!
BFHU: I have already addressed the Roman issue. Please tell us what practice do we have that is pagan? And please supply credible historical references, not just opinion.
You most likely misunderstand b/c many anti-Catholic speakers and writers attempt to claim that Catholic practices are rooted in paganism. But they are slanderers. Our Church was founded by Jesus Christ the Son of God 2000 years ago.Protestant churches were all founded by rebellious men. They all contain very much truth which they took with them out of the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church contains all the fullness of Christian Truth.
Julia: JESUS is the way, the truth and the life, HE is the word became flesh, to serve him we must rely on his word, to know the truth, we must rely on his word, this is why the bible exists, we cannot rely on our opinion to serve the creator of all things as he has already planned what we must do and what we mustn’t do, it’s all written in his word.
BFHU: I agree. And there is nothing in our faith that conflicts with anything in Sacred Scripture. Our beliefs merely conflict with Protestant traditions and Protestant interpretations of Scripture. But, of course I would have to disagree that “it’s all written in his word” just as St. John said …it is not all written down: John 20:30Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
John 21:25But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Aman: It is still the pope that had the final word on which books made it. Which is the most distubing thing Ive learned in a while. In history, and the present, how good is the track record for cardinals, bishops and popes? There isnt enough room on this page to count all the scandals.
BFHU: Hmmmmm. You are right. It would be very disturbing to Sola Scriptura Protestants. Since you do not trust mere men…..but wait! All of the authors of all of the books of Sacred Scripture were mere men. Isn’t that disturbing to you as well? So, how could you trust Scripture to be TRUE since it is written by mere men who were also subject to sin?
Aman:I dont know about you but I dont trust a man, and I repeat a man, that surrounds himself with the luxuries and wealth of the world, wears red prada shoes, expensive jewelery,wears a hat that originally was designed for pagan leaders for worship to their fish god Dagon.Billions of dollars has been spent to build the worlds most lavish churches instead of using it feed and shelter the hungry and poor.
BFHU: Let me clear some things up for you. All the wealth at the Vatican and the museums and the beautiful Catholic churches around the world were donations by the faithful to offer things and build churches of great beauty. You know someone in scripture also complained about the expense “wasted” on Jesus.
The Precious Ointment
Mark 14:3 While He was in Bethany at the home of Simon the leper, and reclining at the table, there came a woman with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume of pure nard; and she broke the vial and poured it over His head. 4 But some were indignantly remarking to one another, “Why has this perfume been wasted? 5 For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, (Nearly a year’s worth of wages) and the money given to the poor.” And they were scolding her. 6But Jesus said, “Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me.7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.
The hats worn by bishops is very odd. But they are to look like the flames of fire that fell on the apostles on Pentecost.
Aman: Pretty sure this is not what jesus had in mind. Tell me one story where Jesus put money or scripture in front of caring for others in need. Show me one description of jesus wearing expensive jewelery or expensive clothes. Think as if you were Jesus and then ask yourself if you would accept the corrupt nature of the Vatican and its hierarchy.
BFHU: The Popes personally do not desire to wear expensive anything. These things are given to the pope to honor the vicar of Christ on Earth. To honor Jesus through the man chosen as pope. And as we see above Jesus certainly accepted a gift of precious oil as the woman sought to honor Him. I think you are imposing your own opinion on Jesus rather than reading scripture and letting it form your faith.
Aman:Why would the pope pray to the Madonna for protection and pray to statues instead of god???!! Might as well build a golden calf in the middle of St peters Square for people to worship as well. This is sounding familiar. God didnt like it the first time people prayed and worshiped to statues, what makes you think hes ok with that now?
BFHU: The pope and Catholics do not worship statues. You are mistaken because you are judging us based on your own bias. We believe in asking for intercessory prayer from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Unlike Protestants we know that those who died in Christ are alive in Heaven and we also ask for their prayers. That is all we are doing when we pray in front of a statue or picture of a Saint. And we know God is OK with that b/c He answers our prayers more quickly through His Saints. If it was not efficacious we would have stopped long ago.
Aman: Popes and priests cannot forgive you for your sins. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT!
BFHU: Where does it say this in Scripture? Wait there is something about this in scripture.
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?“
How do you explain this verse where Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive or not forgive sin?
JOHN 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Holy Bible state that speaking to the dead is wrong? Lucifer and a third of the angels were cast out of heaven to earth. This in a way has become deceitful to some people. Satan and his angels take the form of of these dead saints or these Mary sightings opening a door to deceive Gods people into thinking the souls of these saints and mary are roaming on this earth. Praying to these saints and Mary feels like im praying to a dead person. When one dies they enter a deep sleep. The dead know nothing at this point. So why pray to a saint or Mary. She has no say in your salvation, only your Heavenly Father has control of that.
Bread From Heaven: Here is the passage you are thinking of:
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.
But this is not about asking the dead for intercessory prayer. This passage deals with various forms of DIVINATION. Asking a living member of the Body of Christ who is in Heaven to pray for you is nothing like Divination. It is merely intercessory prayer. So, it is absolutely NOT forbidden in scripture.
But you are correct that the demons can try to deceive people with apparitions, voices, seances, contacting the dead etc. I totally agree with you. People of all faiths can be taken in by these things. However, the Catholic Church is not taken in by them.
Any apparition is nothing but a private event. They play NO role in our faith once delivered to the saints. Catholics are completely free to ignore and reject all apparitions, even those approved by the Church. And those approved by the Church undergo a rigorous examination of all that was said by Mary or a Saint for anything heretical. If heresy is found it is denounced and Catholics are forbidden to follow it in any way. Also, any purported miracles are thoroughly examined by scientist and physicians and not by Catholic men of science either. If these are found to be frauds the miracle is denounced. But, in some cases there are authentic miracles, such as at Lourdes, and some frauds in the mix. So demons, who are ever seeking to deceive the faithful, no doubt take advantage of anything and everything they can.
We do not believe that we enter into a sleep until Jesus comes again after death. We believe that after death comes judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
We believe that at death our soul, which is immortal, goes to judgement and is sent to Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. At the second coming our risen bodies are reunited with our souls. And why do you believe that our souls sleep? What scripture? Sleep is used as a euphemism for death. But I don’t know of a passage that says when we die our souls sleep until the second coming. Do you?
Q. Didn’t jesus say that he would raise all people on the last day(jhn 6:40)? So how can you pray(ask) mary to pray to God as if she is in his presence yet she’s dead!
Bread From Heaven: Well, it is really very simple. We do not believe Mary and the Saints are dead. We believe that our bodies die but our souls are eternal. Our souls will never die. After death our soul goes immediately to be judged. We are then sent to Heaven (by way of a purification, if necessary) or Hell. At the end of time Jesus will resurrect our bodies and they will once again be joined to our souls in Heaven or Hell.
Even Jesus said,
Matthew 22:32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Therefore we do believe that Mary and all the Saints are in the very presence of God and are able to intercede for us. I hope this helps you understand.
Bl. Herman Joseph (boy holding apples), St. Stephen of Hungary (King), St. Charles Borromeo (Kneeling Cardinal), St. Dominic (holding lily), St. Anselm (Standing Bishop), St. Nothburga (Sickle over her head).
Simon: I understand that catholics don’t pray to Mary or believe that she can answer prayers but where does it say in the Bible that Mary can hear our prayers and/or intercede for us?
Bread From Heaven: As I am sure you already know there is not a scripture that says, “Mary can hear our prayers and/or intercede for us?” I also will ask you:
Where in the Bible does it say that all spiritual truth must be found in Scripture alone?
Simon:And If your response is that everything/all spiritual truth can’t be found in the Bible then can you provide me with the source of where this tradition that has been passed down from the very first church?
Bread From Heaven: I cannot show you evidence “from the very first church” but you will find numerous quotes from the Fathers of the Church in the first centuries of the Church, regarding Prayers to Saints in my post:
Simon:And further more can you provide sources that evidences that God agrees, encourages and commands this?
Bread From Heaven: After 2000 years the faithful have found that God answers these prayers of the Saints. If He disapproved He would not answer them and the practice would die out if only prayers directly to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit were more effective.
Simon:Lastly I’m unclear whether catholics believe that Mary’s prayer for you is more powerful than anyone elses prayer for you? and if so why? as she is human just like you and me.
Bread From Heaven: Yes, Mary is human just like you and me with one difference. She was saved from sin by Jesus at her conception, and through the power of the Holy Spirit and her obedience she never sinned. The Scriptures say:
James 5:16 The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
And Blessed Mary is the most Righteous merely human being in Heaven and the beloved mother of Our Lord.
Robert: What other scriptures are needed than the one where Jesus tells us how to pray?
Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven…”
Bread From Heaven: Do you then think that the ONLY prayer Jesus allowed is the Lord’s Prayer?
Robert:These passages are perfectly clear and do not need interpretation by anyone.
Bread From Heaven: Then one could make the case from the way you interpret this passage that all prayer except the Lord’s Prayer is forbidden. And some Protestant churches forbid praying the Lord’s Prayer.
Robert: He tells us not to pray in the open
He tells us not to pray in vain repetitions
He states perfectly clear to pray “in this manner” to “our Father in Heaven”
Bread From Heaven: Does He? Really? So all prayers in church are forbidden? Let’s take a look at the context:
Mt. 6:1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Jesus was contrasting show-prayer with praying in secret. This is preferred to showy prayer. But this does not mean that all public prayer is forbidden. Jesus NEVER said anywhere in Scripture that a public prayer is a sin, evil, wrong, or forbidden. This is how Protestants sometimes interpret it. But they still pray in their church services which is hypocritical.
Jesus does not denounce all repetition of prayer. He denounces VAIN repetition. Even He said the same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemane. Please see my post–>Why Not Just Pray to Jesus?
Robert: To pray any other way violates Lord Jesus order that was issued from Him directly
Bread From Heaven: Where does it say this in Scripture? You are asserting something without any authority to do so. The above scripture says no such thing. Only your interpretation says this.
Robert: The only sin worse than personally committing transgressions against God is misleading and teaching others falsely to commit transgressions which is what the Catholic Church has and is doing.
Bread From Heaven: You think this based on your own or other Protestant teaching. But that is a very different thing than any Scripture actually contradicting what the Church teaches. There is no such scripture. There is only contradictory Protestant teaching and interpretation.
Robert: There is no Biblical authorizing that exists praying to anyone but God, and to say you are simply talking to Mary, who is infact dead, is not praying to her is almost laughable if it were not so misleading.
Bread From Heaven: Mary is NOT dead. She is alive in Heaven. Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Robert: The “Church” has perverted the Ten Commandments and continues to do so as seen in the posts above.
Bread From Heaven: You make an assertion but give us no evidence. This is then an ad-hominem attack which is usually a sign that facts are scarce.
Robert: BTW – interpretation comes from God thru the Holy Spirit to us.
Bread From Heaven: I know that you believe this but different interpretations of scripture are the exact reason there are thousands of different Protestant denominations. Not all of the interpretations are true. Not all are led by the Holy Spirit. If they were then God would be a God of Confusion. Biblical interpretation unhinged from the Church founded by Jesus Christ and history has led to chaos in Protestantism. They can only agree on a few basics. The scripture NEVER promised to guide every individual human being into truth in interpreting scripture. The Scriptures NEVER say all Christian truth is found ONLY in Scripture. This is a Protestant Tradition of men.
Robert: (The Catholic Church) murdered Martin Luther. Luther would have put them mostly out of business if everyone had understood what he was saying Of course the Church has murdered many that stood in their way.
Bread From Heaven:…uhmmm…Martin Luther died of natural causes.
The Catholic Church did not ever murder anyone. Catholics have murdered people. But that is not the same as the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not approve of murder any more than you do. This is a slanderous statement.
Robert: Jesus Christ came to this world to deliver us from our sin and from a religious organization that sought only power and position and it took the world just a few hundred years to bring it right back.
The sad things is most of the Protestant churches follow the same doctrinal falsehoods the Catholic Church conceived.
Bread From Heaven: By what authority do you say, “…and from a religious organization”? That is NOWHERE in scripture. So here you are with beliefs that are not in scripture and not historical. They are only a few decades old. This is just not convincing. The evidence is clear: The Catholic Church believes the same doctrine as the Christians believed in the first century.
Q. I understand that ‘praying’ to Mary and the saints has to do with asking them to ask God things for you, what I do not understand is how this is better than directly asking God?
A. I don’t know. It just is. Our Lord likes for us to pray for one another. If we were only supposed to pray directly to Him then scripture would not exhort us to pray for one another. Where in Scripture does it say that we must only pray for ourselves and directly to God at all times?
Q. Also even though you do not worship Mary or the saints where did anyone ever get the idea that praying to dead people, yes dead people because that is ALL that Mary or any of the saints is, dead, is going to help anything?
A. We do not think of them as dead. I am sorry that you lack the faith to realize that even though our bodies die, our souls are alive and immortal, in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Therefore, since their souls are ALIVE, they are able to intercede for us.
Q. Nothing makes the saints or Mary holy in any way except that human beings decided they wanted to be.
A. No, it is not that easy to be declared a Saint with a capital “S”. The life of the person is examined with a fine-toothed comb. Writings, witnesses, friends and relatives are consulted if still alive. But then two supernatural miracles must occur as a result of a person asking for the intercession of the person, after they are dead (in the body)in order for them to be elevated to Sainthood. That is pretty hard to fake.
These miracles are not just lightly accepted the way a lot of people talk about, “it was a miracle!” The disease or disorder must be verifiable by medical, scientific records, doctor reports, lab work, X-rays, etc. The person must have been praying to this individual and then be cured. The cure also must be medically/scientifically verified with physician testimony, lab reports, X-rays etc. It must be determined beyond doubt that something supernatural occurred.
Q. Jesus also died but the difference is that he came back to life afterwords. A. Jesus’ body was resurrected. But His spiritual being never died. He is God. He cannot die. And it is the same with our souls. Our bodies die but our soul is immortal. At the end of time all bodies will be resurrected and reunited with their soul in Heaven or Hell.
Q. The scripture verse above that Star posted is extremely relevant and in my opinion too much over looked in our society today.
A. The scripture verse: Jesus said, “No One Comes To the Father, But Through Me”: John 14:6
Of course, this is true. Jesus’ life, death and resurrection made it possible for man to be reconciled to God. Not Mary or any of the Saints. I think you seem to have some misinformation about what Catholics believe. Protestantism is riddled with misinformation about the Catholic Church.
Q. So what I would like to know is how it is possible to justify the belief that Mary and the Saints can do anything at all for you and whether or not Catholics view them as holy?
A. Yes, since we believe that they are ALIVE in Heaven, as evidenced by miraculous signs through their intercession, we believe that they can join their prayers with ours to our Lord. They do not, by their own merely human power, answer our prayers. We do view them as Holy. But we are all supposed to be Holy as our Heavenly Father is holy.
Q. One last point I would like to make is that there are many graven images of the Virgin Mary, one in almost every Catholic church, as well as images of the saints, and that even if you yourself do not worship Mary many people out there actually do.
A. I would say that you are wrong. Have you ever asked a Catholic if they worship Mary? Did they actually say, “Yes”?
Protestants are taught that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints. They have no pictures or statues in their churches. Therefore when they go to a Catholic Church, because of the biased teaching they have received, they jump to an uncharitable conclusion that Catholics worship Mary, etc. Any Catholic who actually does worship anyone other than God is a HERETIC!!! Pure and simple. No Catholic is EVER taught to worship anyone other than God.
Q. This tradition began in the 11th century when St.Bernard began a cult completely dedicated to the worship of Mary. A. You are mistaken.
Q. It is completely ungrounded in scripture that any dead person can intercede between you and God. A. Where does scripture assert what you say here? Where does Scripture say that a person who’s body has died cannot intercede for other members of the Body of Christ? Where does Scripture say that a person who has died is dead, dead, dead, until the end of time or whatever it is you believe about the soul? And most importantly….Where does Scripture say that Scripture alone is the FINAL AUTHORITY in all things pertaining to Christianity?
The answer to all of these questions is: No where.There is no scripture that teaches any of these things.
Comment: It is amazing to me how lost Catholics are. Nothing but repetition and useless prayers. Doing things with no soul, just for the sake of doing them. BFHU: Wow! How are you able to judge the hearts of Catholics? “
I Cor: 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
John 13:35
” By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Comment: “Let’s say the hail mary 50 times.” Not scriptural, just tradition and made up stuff that nobody needs to do. Why not just follow the bible?
BFHU: Are not all prayers “made up stuff” so to speak? When you pray do you ever use your own words to pray?
We do follow the Bible. Nothing in our faith contradicts it. Our Faith only contradicts Protest-antism
Comment: It doesn’t say, “thou must say 50 hail mary’s” in the bible, so why do it?
BFHU: It is a Biblical prayer for the most part and what is not in scripture is doctrinal.
Hail Mary full of grace blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:42
And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
This part of the prayer is doctrinal. Jesus was God. Mary was His mother. Therefore, Mary was the Mother of God. We are sinners. Mary is alive in Heaven and part of the Body of Christ. We are to pray for one another so we ask Mary to Pray for us now and at the hour of our death, lest Satan tempt us to sin mortally and thereby win our soul for Hell.
Comment: Why not pray as Jesus prayed, do as Jesus did and stop inventing stuff that isn’t biblical? Who cares if the bible doesn’t forbid it, just stop doing it.
BFHU:We pray the Our Father at every mass. Are all of your prayers straight out of the Bible? On what authority do you command Catholics to do what you say?
Comment: There is absolutely no reason to pray to Mary or any other saint. God knows our situation. God is omnipotent and omnipresent. He is all seeing and all knowing and he knows what we need before we even ask.
BFHU: That is all very true. However, He seems to always work through human beings for some reason. Therefore, James tells us:
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Your suggestion that we don’t need to pray b/c God already knows everything contradicts scripture
I Thess. 5:17 pray without ceasing;
Matthew 7:7 [Prayer and the Golden Rule ] ” Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 17:21” But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting
Even Jesus prayed to His Father, and He, Jesus, was God,
Luke 6:12[ Choosing the Twelve ] It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer
Comment: There is no reason or no basis in scripture for anybody to ask anybody but God through Christ.
BFHU:
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Comment: And I also must add that if the bible doesn’t say anything that forbids prayer for the dead, but doesn’t say anything telling people to pray for the dead, then why do it at all? The bible doesn’t specifically forbid praying to a head of lettuce either, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to pray to a head of lettuce.
BFHU: The Bible does tell us to “pray for one another.” This does not exclude our asking for others to intercede on our behalf to God. Therefore, there is nothing wrong about praying for one another and not each one only praying to God by himself, for himself. The members of the Body of Christ pray for one another. Mary and the Saints are members of the Body of Christ. They do not need our prayers because they are in Heaven but we need prayer. So we ask them to pray for us. Simple as that.
Comment: Follow scripture. Don’t follow the catechism which has butchered the ten commandments which forbids idolatry. Follow the bible as it was meant to be followed. You don’t need a priest to tell you what is right and what is wrong. God’s scripture is right there and the answers are there, just read it and you will see the truth.
BFHU: We do follow the Bible. We do not worship Idols. That is a Protestant tradition-that Catholics worship idols. Charity, please.
Comment: Catholics, if you don’t believe me about the Catholic butchering of the Ten Commandments, I implore you to read the ten commandments of the bible and then compare them to what is in the Catechism. Can you tell me what happened to commandment NUMBER TWO?
BFHU: We simply number them differently. And we numbered them that way long before the Protestants numbered them the way that they do to specifically try to bolster their contention that Catholics worship idols.
Please see my post–>Why Did the Catholic Church DROP the Commandment about Idolatry?
Not 100 people in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is.
-- Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Bread From Heaven 