Protestants Say: “The Catholic Church Did Not Exist Until 400 A.D.”

Main Entrance to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Donald: How can you say that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ Himself? When googling “Origin of The Catholic Church, you learn that The Catholic Church was established between 300 to 400 years after Jesus walked on the Earth.

BFHU: Well, as we shall see Google is not infallible. The years 325- 400 AD or there about, is often cited b/c Emperor Constantine decreed peace and legality for the Catholic Church. For most of the preceding years since the Crucifixion of Jesus, the Church had been desperately persecuted. Therefore, Christians were pretty much in hiding and there were no ecumenical councils until Nicaea. But the Christian Catholic Church was alive and well despite the persecutions.

Jesus Himself said He would found a church.

Mt 16:17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The Catholic Church of the Holy Sepulchre is built over both the rock of Calvary and the Tomb of Jesus. Below is an aerial view of the domes of the Church.

The Church of the Holy Sepulcher has been destroyed and rebuilt several times through the centuries. The church we see today was constructed by the Crusaders.The small grey dome covers the rock of Calvary, and the large dome covers the site of Jesus’ burial and resurrection.

Here is the floor plan of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre . Calvary is just to the right of the main entrance to the Church and the Tomb is marked in orange.

So, the Catholic Church built a church on the Holy Site of Jesus’ death and resurrection. In fact the Catholic Church has built churches on all of the Holy sites of Israel.

Also, historically this church that Jesus founded, has always been called Catholic Here are some quotes from the early Church Fathers: The Early Church Fathers on The Church

Ignatius of Antioch-[A.D. 110]

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp-[A.D. 110]

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus [A.D. 189]

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian [A.D.200]

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (The Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Cyprian [A.D. 251]

The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251]).

Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).

For an interesting thought experiment—>Which Church Did Jesus Start?

Why Does the Catholic Church Use Language that Misleads Protestants?

Phillip: I just wish the Fathers at the Council of Trent did not use such misleading language. It all is very misleading to Protestant eyes.

BFHU: My husband has the same complaint but Catholic language was chosen and used for centuries before the Protestants came along. The vocabulary and language used by our theologians is very precise in meaning and very beautifully expressed. And the Church should not change the words used for people who are hell-bent to criticize the Catholic Church for anything and everything they can find.

It is actually a very curious thing that even after 500 years Protestants still accuse us of worshiping Mary even though we have been telling them for 500 years that we do not worship Mary. The same can be said for most other areas of disagreement. Why? Why is that?

For some reason they really don’t care what we say about our beliefs; They believe that they are able to determine that the Catholic Church is at fault no matter what the Church says or how the Church tries to explain the misunderstanding. Really it is a subtle kind of arrogance that they are totally unaware of in themselves. They would be appalled at the thought of being arrogant. I know they do not want to be or mean to be arrogant. But Protestantism, by its very nature breeds arrogance and is constitutionally incapable of breeding true, deep humility. This is b/c each one is encouraged and taught that they alone, all on their own, with no help from anyone else can know exactly what scriptures, written 2000 years ago, in a very different culture, mean b/c the Holy Spirit will lead them. And despite the abundant evidence that this theory has been disproven by all the factions and denominations and diametrically opposed “leadings of the Holy Spirit”, they will still insist in their heart of hearts that THEY ARE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Humility doesn’t have a chance. And the weird thing is they truly DO want to be holy and humble. But this foundation of Scripture-Alone-Interpreted By-Me-Alone is sand upon which sturdy humility cannot and will not be built.

But Jesus Wanted Us to be ONE…..

CLICK ON THE CARTOON FOR A LARGER VERSION.

The ONLY Leader is Jesus

STEPHANIE:
The only leader or priest one should have is Jesus. If you kneel down to a pope or a pastor where is God in that? Why give glory to a human being that is not the reason for you being alive. The pope did not give you eternal salvation. Catholicism is a religion and Jesus broke down all religion because it took away from God. It did before and it still does now.

BREAD FROM HEAVEN: Jesus is our King. But every King has administrators who are given authority by the KING. Left to ourselves alone our faith/religion becomes something we ourselves invent. There is no assurance of TRUTH. If we then make the step of accepting only Scripture our Faith/religion then has a lot of Truth we still have no assurance that our own interpretation is TRUE. So once again we are left with a faith/religion that we can only rely upon ourselves for assurance of TRUTH. The Protestant theory of “the Holy Spirit will lead me into all TRUTH,” is a wonderful theory but in the 500 years of history since the Protestant Reformation, it has proven false. If it were true all Protestants would be led to unity of TRUTH because God is not a God of confusion and yet each year brings new denominations brought about by different interpretations of Scripture. Today there are thousands of different Protestant denominations.

Jesus Himself desires that we be ONE even as He and His Father are ONE.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

So, Protestantism’s theory of being led by the HS in interpreting scripture has not proven true. Jesus desires UNITY, but Protestantism has resulted in thousands of denominations. And Protestantism encourages private interpretation of Scripture contrary to Scripture itself. This is what led to disunity and confusion.

But, Jesus Himself founded the Catholic Church on Peter and the Apostles 2000 years ago. We have the assurance of TRUTH as that which Jesus taught His apostles some of which was written and became the Bible canonized by the Catholic Church. And some of the apostolic truth was passed on orally and gradually has also been written as a witness to historic Christianity.

I will go with the Church founded by Jesus. He is our king. He gave us a pope and bishops and priests. Who am I to say He did it wrong.

Does the Catholic Faith Teach Us to Kill the Saints?

Art: The Catholic religion is the only religion that killed its saints and killed people who didn’t convert to become one and follow their dogmas of idolatry and claiming that they are above scriptures.

Bread From Heaven: The Catholic religion does not kill its saints or kill people who didn’t convert. Do you honestly think that our Faith teaches us to kill our Saints? Or do you mean sinful men who happened to be Catholic killed saints? There are many Catholics who follow their own sinful nature and do bad things. But this is not because their faith has taught them to do evil. We can find evil men in every religion and every race but to then make the generalization that the religion or race of an evil man is itself evil is uncharitable and lacking in right judgement.

Art: Then proclaimed that it is above scriptures. There is a reason why the bible should be the sole authority of our faith. Just like Martin Luther’s “sola scriptura.”

Bread From Heaven: False. The Catholic Church is not above Scripture. All of her doctrines must be aligned and non-contradictory of Sacred Scripture. And I have not found teaching of the Catholic Faith
that contradicts Sacred Scripture. What often happens is that Protestants interpret certain Scriptures differently than the Catholic Church has always interpreted those scriptures for 2000 years. But the Protestants do not know the history of the Catholic interpretation, and thinking that their own interpretation is infallible jump to the conclusion that the Catholic Church teaches things that contradict Sacred Scripture. This is not true. The Catholic Faith merely contradicts certain private interpretations of scripture. This is not the same thing as actually contradicting Scripture. We reject the infallibility of Protestant interpretation of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

And the word translated “prophecy” does not mean foretelling the future but according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary:
“Propheteia: signifies the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God.”

Art: Being above scriptures is very dangerous.

Bread From Heaven: Yes, it would be very dangerous.

Art: That means you get to add and delete stuff from the doctrines. If that, then it is a religion made by man.

Bread From Heaven: If that were the case then what you say would be true. However, the Catholic Church holds all of the teachings of Jesus to His apostles as equally sacred; both what was written and canonized as Sacred Scripture and the Oral Teachings of the Apostles that were passed down for generations before being written down. We follow the teaching of St. Paul and St. John.

I Cor 11: 2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

• 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Not everything Jesus did or said got written down.

John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 21: 25_And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written._

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Art:Just for a starter, how on earth did Mary, the mother of Jesus, become Catholic? They were jews!

Bread From Heaven: Yes Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the Apostles were all Jews. The Jews were awaiting their Messiah. Jesus was the Messiah and Mary and the Apostles followed the Jewish Messiah, who also was Jewish by birth. Catholicism is the Jewish Faith fulfilled. Catholicism is the Church founded by the Jewish Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Art:And why now pray to the saints and Mary and Peter etc etc when they are all dead?

Bread From Heaven: They are not dead. They are alive in Heaven. As Sacred Scripture says:

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Matthew 22:32‘ I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

You are greatly mistaken.

Art: The bible says in Ecclesiastes 9:5:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Bread From Heaven:

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

Ecclesiastes expresses a human point of view, not the divine point of view and truth.

Art: So tell me how did Mary manage to resurrect herself? And convert to Catholicism.

Bread From Heaven: Mary did not resurrect herself. She was assumed into Heaven by Our Lord as we all will be at the end of time. In the mean time, our souls, which cannot die go to judgement when our bodies die. At the resurrection all souls and bodies will be reunited in Heaven or Hell, for eternity. Mary and the Apostles were the first members of Messianic Judaism, Jewish Faith fulfilled now known as Catholicism.

Art: If you are going to join Catholicism and become one, since they made up pretty much of their own doctrines and not follow the bible, if I was you, I’d just make my own religion….That way, you can add more or delete more as you chose.

Bread From Heaven: The Doctrine of the Catholic Church has not changed for 2000 years. Our understanding of these doctrines has deepened over this time. But no new doctrine has been added to the Catholic Faith. I would never have any confidence in a religion I made up myself. But as you can see, many of your beliefs actually do contradict scripture as seen above.

Shame on the Catholic Church

Deb: Look at the picture of pope John holding a wafer which is supposedly our Lord and Savior contained inside of a pagan sundial. How would Christ feel about being associated with the sun god Tammuz? Shame on the Catholic church for subjecting Christ to such mockery.

Bread From Heaven: Deb,Did you ever ask a knowledgeable Catholic if the item that holds Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist is meant to represent or be associated with the sun god Tammuz? If not where did you come up with that? Because it is just laughable. My guess is that someone who is eager to criticize the Catholic Church probably just jumped to an evil conclusion based on the looks and decided that their opinion was true without ever trying to find out the reality. It is the same “investigative” method some Protestants use to accuse Catholics of worshiping idols. They see a Catholic kneeling down in prayer in front of a picture or statue and they they know without a shadow of doubt that they have just witnessed modern day idolatry.
They could not be more wrong.

The item that holds the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ is meant to adorn, glorify, and beautify the surrounding of Our Lord. That is all. It is called a monstrance which means, “to show”. Our Enemy surely inspired the sun god theory in the minds of your teacher.
Kyrie Eleison

Did The Catholic Church Add Books to the Bible?

Q. When did Catholics add books to the Bible?

A. They never did. The Jews and the Protestants removed books from the OT. The Catholic Church simply received the Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures, from the Jews, at the time of Christ. This became known as the Old Testament. 70 years later, the Jews removed 7 Old Testament books from the Septuagint. The reason given for this was that they could no longer find those books in Hebrew.

Interestingly some of these books were being used to good advantage to make converts among the Jews. For example:

This passage prophesies and describes the attitude of the enemies of Jesus hundreds of years before His birth:

The Book of Wisdom
2.1a, 12-22

The wicked said among themselves, thinking not aright:

Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself as a child of the Lord. To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men’s and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him. These were their thoughts, but they erred, for their wickedness blinded them, and they knew not the hidden counsels of God neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

Prayers for the dead and support for Purgatory (since people in Heaven don’t need prayers and people in Hell can’t be helped by prayers) are scriptural based on the following passage.

II Maccabees 12:44-45

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In 1529, Martin Luther removed the same 7 books from the Catholic Old Testament, that the Jews had removed1400 years earlier. Luther also removed 4 New Testament books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) that did not agree with his theology, for his German translation. These books were removed from their original place in the order of the books and placed together at the end of the Bible. In later editions, he was persuaded to return the New Testament books to to their proper position in his translation of the Bible. Today Protestant Bibles don’t contain 7 Old Testament books at all.

Q. What is the Septuagint?

A. In the centuries leading up to the birth of Christ the Jews were living all over the known world. Greek was the language of commerce and scholarship. Over time it became harder and harder to maintain a wide knowledge of Hebrew among the Jews because more and more were speaking only Greek. The Jews in Alexandria set about to make a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. This translation was completed between 250-125 BC by 70 Jewish scholars. Septuagint means 70 in Latin.

Scholars are certain that Jesus and the early Christians accepted the Septuagint version of the Old Testament because etymological studies of 300 quotes from the Old Testament made by the New Testament writers can be traced back to the Septuagint version. There are also NT quotes that can be traced back to the Hebrew OT but these are far fewer in number. So, if Jesus had rejected the Septuagint the New Testament writers seemed to know nothing about it since they all used it quite freely.

For More click –> Five Myths About the Seven Books

Technorati Tags: Catholic, Old+Testament, Septuagint, Maccabees

Protestants Say: Catholics Earn their Salvation by Good Works

Protestants say Catholicism teaches salvation is: Merited by doing good works-

FALSE. Good works and offering reparation for our sins is for purifying ourselves from sin and attachment to sin. It is not to earn salvation. Only Christ could merit salvation for us. What good we do could NEVER save us it purifies us from sin in an effort to progress in holiness because,

^… Nothing impure will ever enter it (Heaven) Rev. 21:27

“.. like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’” 1 Peter 1:13-16

Leviticus 11:44 …and be holy; for I am holy…”

Leviticus 20:26: “Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; ”

Matthew 5:16Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10…but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Timothy 5:10…having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1 Timothy 6:18…Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works,

So, our good works are in obedience to Christ and in order to progress towards holiness. What is deficient in this progress will be completed in Purgatory–total purification in order to enter into the presence of God. This is what we must do. Jesus saved us but we must cooperate with Him to effect purification, either in this life or the next. This in the Bible too:

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions

Protestants Say: Catholics think they are saved by their Church

Protestants say Catholicism teaches: Salvation is supposedly through the Roman Catholic Church:

TRUE because Jesus built a Church

Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And …the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth…… 1 Timothy 3:15

Salvation is brought to each generation and person through the Church. This is how Jesus chose to bring us salvation. This does not mean that the Church replaces Jesus or can do without Jesus or is more important than Jesus and His Life, Death, and Resurrection. Jesus could have chosen to save each person by personally appearing to them and teaching them. But, he chose, instead to found a Church to do the preaching, teaching, baptisizing etc.

Protestants Say:

Protestants say Catholicism is: A religious system of sacraments, indulgences, purgatory, and prayers for the dead

TRUE. But the words religion, religious, sacrament, and system are anathema to many Protestants. Therefore any Religious System is code for….WRONG/BAD/EVIL.

Catholicism is just too complicated for the tastes of many Protestants. They believe Christianity is simple and anything complicated or multifaceted must be wrong. Anything calling itself a religion is just too old school for them.Being Non-denominational is IN and claiming a denomination is OUT even in Protestantism. So you can imagine how OUT Catholicism is. I have even heard a pastor say anything with ‘ism‘ at the end is somehow bad or suspect. So Catholicism has another strike against it. But, what about Protestantism? Well, simple. Protestants rarely use that term and contend that they are just Christians. Christian is IN. The terms, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist are OUT; even if you are a Baptist, Presbyterian or Methodist. And since there is no such word  as Christian-ism they believe they are in the clear with regard to the ‘isms’

They tend to believe that all you have to do is say, “I accept Jesus as my Savior” and they will be saved regardless of subsequent sin. They can never sin so egregiously as to fall from or lose salvation. For them Christianity is all about their personal relationship with Jesus. They read the Bible and they are able to interpret the Bible infallibly, although they would never say this they think their interpretation is right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

They ignore thousands of verses in Scripture because they don’t align with their beliefs.