Is Praying to the Saints Necromancy?


Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.

Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.


Dan: Regarding Praying to Mary!
“What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to the dead?”
Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

BREAD FROM HEAVEN: I am sure that your pastor taught you this and used this verse to back up his denunciation of the Catholic Church. But, what is condemned is DIVINATION-(the occult practice of trying to get information from the dead in order to make decisions) NOT Intercessory prayer requests.

So the purpose for speaking to the dead when practicing DIVINATION is SEEKING OCCULT INFORMATION.

Let’s define our terms.

Definition of OCCULT

1: not revealed : secret
2: not easily apprehended or understood : abstruse, mysterious
3: hidden from view

Witchcraft

Witchcraft

Definition of DIVINATION: Practice of discerning the hidden significance of events and foretelling the future. Divination is found in all societies, ancient and modern, though methods vary. In the West, psychics claim innate ability to predict the future, and horoscopes, palm reading, and tarot cards are popular methods of divination. Other methods involve or have involved interpreting dreams, discovering omens in natural events, reading the entrails of animals, casting lots, and consulting oracles. Divination has long been viewed as the province of specially gifted persons, such as prophets, shamans, and magicians. See also astrology.

When we ask the dead (but alive in Heaven) to pray for us we are asking for intercessory prayer. We are asking them to pray for us. We are not asking them for information in order to make decisions.images-1

If you notice your quote above:

Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”

Consults has a very different meaning than “speak to”.

Definiton of Consults: to ask the advice or opinion of

Exactly as the I Chron. passage says: Saul “consulted a medium for guidance


And here is the Deuteronomy passage:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Definition of NECROMANCY: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

I Sam 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.

As you can see, DIVINATION through necromancy, consulting a medium is the seeking of hidden (occult) information for decision making or attempts to control events. This is what God condemns because we are to trust Him; seek guidance only from Him. This is because God knows that the so called “dead” consulted in necromancy are not really the spirits of a human person but DEMONS disguised as the intended person.

A DEMON would NEVER join us in praying to God for anything. Therefore when we ask someone, in Heaven, to pray for us we do not have to worry about contacting Demons. They lose any power over us. We ask for prayers only not for information. Therefore, we also do not need to be afraid we will be led astray by Demons either because we give them no power to give us any information.

necromancyIt is very sloppy exegesis to tell people that Divination is the same thing as asking for intercessory prayer and is therefore condemned by God in the OT.

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24 Responses

  1. I am still not convinced. God created us not Mary. It us God through Jesus who taught us how to pray and whom to pray to, not Mary. Prayer directly to God whether confessing your sins, asking for fogiveness or praying to Jesus for someone else’s well being, not to Mary. You see this is what is bringing the devil closer to mankind. This I suspect is how he manipulates our believing in God. Mary was a believer too when was living and had no choice but to obey how God had chosen her to be the mother of Christ. Even she prayed to God for more guidance. When these Carholics pray the rosary, I mean common only one Our Father and ten Hail Marys!? I think the new Pope should look more into how prayers are conducted.

    • Dear Daniel,
      This is your opinion. You have no scripture that says asking for the intercession of the Saints is wrong. You seem to create a strawman argument when you declare that:

      “God made us and not Mary.”
      We agree.
      “Also Jesus taught us to pray, not Mary.”
      We agree. What is your point. We both agree with this. But this does not prove that we cannot ask for Mary to intercede for us.

      You assert that this is “bringing the devil closer to mankind.” But you offer no evidence or proof for your assertion other than doctrine that we both agree about. Therefore, this is merely your opinion.

      However, Mary certainly did have a choice to give God permission to bring the Messiah through her womb. She could have said, “No,thanks”

      Not that this matters but Protestants often resort to condemning the Hail Mary because, they point out, there is a ratio of 10 to 1. It is true that there is one Our Father to ten Hail Mary’s for each decade or mystery of the Rosary, but there are also ten…

      “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS.

      and one

      “Glory Be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.”

      So, that is
      1 Our Father,
      10 Hail Marys and
      10 “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS!” and
      1 “Glory Be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.” So, in actuallity, prayers to God outnumber the Hail Marys. And the Hail Marys are merely requests for intercessory prayer to God anyway.

      • Bottom line bfhu, prayers go to God and Jesus only not to Mary. I am sure you’ll agree that the bible never taught us to pray to Mary if we needed help. This is the Catholics rendition of praying. It is the devils way of making a joke of thate whole religion itself. Mary believed in the Lord which is why the Lord chose her, not her giving God the permission to conceive Jesus. Not once in the bible have I ever read that Mary is the go to person if God is busy. You guys say read the history and understand the interpretation of the scripture or from the gospel.

        Galatians 1:6-9
        I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

  2. The significance of the action of praying to one other than god. “Mark this well; there is not one verse of the scripture in the New Testament anywhere which authorized anybody to intercede with God after death. We are told to pray for one another only while on earth. Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is suppose to be directed to god while we are alive. There is no authority in scripture for prayers either by, to or for the dead. Yet this is the cardinal tradition of the Roman Catholic church- a tradition which the 4th chapter of Hebrews very pointedly contradicts.”

    There is not one place in the New Testament that people pray to Mary or saints in the early church the apostles never wrote of it in the book of Acts or the epistles. There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead. and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.

  3. Dear Dan,

    Your comment contains a quote but we are not told who said it. It is put forth as if it is some kind of authority. But it is just a man who said it. It is not even from scripture nor does it contain even one quote of scripture.

    Let me be clear. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant doctrine. You are bound by it. Catholic belief may not contradict scripture but we are not bound to prove everything we believe by supporting it with scripture, the way Protestants claim they do.

    However, we have here a clear example of how Protestants believe what they believe because they believe it. They have no scripture support for everything they believe. They have no Christian history support for it all, except from Martin Luther who began many of the Protestant Traditions of men.

    Your quote said:

    We are told to pray for one another only while on earth. Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is suppose to be directed to god while we are alive.

    Where are we told, to pray for one another only while on earth?
    Where are we told, Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is supposed to be directed to god while we are alive?

    There is NO SUCH SCRIPTURE. These are nothing more than Protestants interpretations and expansion of scripture, but they are NOT actually found in Scripture. There is not one word in Hebrews 4 about praying to the Saints. But there is Scripture that commends prayer for the dead:

    II Maccabees 12:43-46: “And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”

    Of course, Martin Luther removed this and six other books from the Old Testament because he did not agree with the Catholic Doctrine supported by these books.

    Dan, there is not one place in the New Testament that prohibits prayer to Mary or saints. You believe this but only based on Protestant Traditions of Men. Your belief is NOT based on a single scripture. Prayer for the dead and asking for intercessory prayer from the saints has been practiced since the early church.

    • The words that God spoke Old Testament and what Jesus spoke in the New Testament is convincing enough for me. Jesus said believe in God and believe in Jesus because we are one in the same. I don’t pray to dead people nor do I believe that Mary will be our best intercessor because it is being chanted, “holy Mary mother of God Pray for us sinners. It will not be Mary to come back to do judgement and I have never read in the bible that Mary also took part in following Jesus and the disciples. I am a believer. I will and always will abide by God’s law and I try to live in Jesus’ words. I pray to Jesus and to Jesus only and not forgetting he died for my sins. I don’t honor repetitious prayers such as praying the rosary. I pray only the Lord’s prayer that he Jesus has mentioned and taught to learn how to Pray the Lord’s prayer.

      Like I mentioned. I read only God and Jesus’ words and I am learning from it and trying to stay steady at it. Research does not matter to me. what God and Jesus is trying to say is what matters to me. When God instructed for his temple to be built he did not order statues. When Jesus walked into his father’s temple and saw people making it to be a market place he did not order for statues to be put up of God or the saints or the angels or even Mary. Who knows Catholics are the ones who started the whole thing and no I am not judging either. When I walk into the church I pray to hear the scriptures being read but I don’t pay attention to those so called statues put up all around inside the church. In this church, Catholic church I attend, my meditating silent prayer to God is always interrupted by people praying the rosary in what the Catholics call the church of God. Now that is appalling desecrating church with all these statues especially the statue of Mary.

  4. Only God, is worthy of prayer, only he can receive praise. You are saying that there are not Bible passages showing that praying to mary is a sin. Well let me introduce you to a few, (there are many more that what i write to you). Lets start off with Daniels friends who would not bow down before a statue, but rather die in a fire. Why was that? because they knew that this was Idol worship. If you read the passage, the law was that they where not allow to ask for anything from anybody else that the King himself, who made himself God.

    There are thousands of Catholic’s are bowing down before statues, pictures of saints, or Mary (how herself was a sinner) asking for things. Its a clear lie of Satan. Then if you see o two occasions in acts,

    ( Acts 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” ) ( and Acts 14:13 – 15 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. ¶ But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
    “Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. last passage is in Rev.19:10 )

    Here we see clearly that none of the church fathers wanted anybody to bow down before them, as they considered themselves unworthy of prayer, or worship. Satan is always wanting to take away the glory and Worship of God, deflecting it. You can chose to follow his lie, and promote the worship of dead people who cant hear you, Or you can point like John the Baptist to the Redeemer Jesus Christ in glorifying him.

    • Dear Kuni,

      Asking Saints for intercessory prayer is no different and no more like idol worship than asking friends on a prayer chain to pray for your intention. When we ask for a Saint to join their prayers to ours we are not worshipping them. That is just a silly Protestant notion. We are merely asking for them to pray to God for us. Your Bible passages refer to idolotry not to asking other Christians for intercessory prayer. When we kneel before a statue or picture to pray, we are NOT worshipping the Saint, the picture, or the statue. It is uncharitable to jump to such a conclusion, but I know it is what you have been taught to believe about Catholics. It is a Protestant Tradition of Men. Please take a look at this post—->Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols.

  5. I think I already talked to you about this but I could not resist to add a few things.

    bfhu:We are merely asking for them to pray to God for us.

    The real problem with what you are saying is that there is a huge gap between the official doctrine(“it’s not prayer to saints, it is asking for intercessory) and the reality of what is happening everyday in the Catholic Church(the church I was born in, by the way). In my pro-life organisation, my Catholics friends that I love are asking prayers TO Mary:

    “I asked Mary to show me which way to take and she did!”

    “Dear Mary, come to my rescue”

    And that’s not mentionning the prayers to saints who have specialties!

    “I asked Saint-____________ to help me find my ring and he did!

    bfhu:That is just a silly Protestant notion.

    I am sorry, but I was not brainwashed by Protestant doctrine, I am witnessing those things on a daily basis. And I have to say that most of your explanations on differents topics make sense in theory, but unfortunetaly, in practice, the followers of your Church do not follow your own beliefs (not here anyway:Quebec, Canada)

    How come those wrong behaviors and doctrines interpretations were able to creep in the Church if truly, the Catholic Church is the Church of God.

    bfhu:Asking Saints for intercessory prayer is no different and no more like idol worship than asking friends on a prayer chain to pray for your intention. When we ask for a Saint to join their prayers to ours we are not worshipping them

    Well, you are giving dead people Godly attributes(omnipresence…- they can hear everybody on earth at the same time). And again the majority of Catholics (again in my region) do not ask for intercessory prayers, they really pray TO Mary or a saint.

    • You know Rob, Catholic believers one of them like bfhu can continue to believe that praying to Mary, the Saints and the Angel asking them to help in their prayers to talk to Jesus. They have to remember that Satan is a very good manipulator and a very good illusionist. He has the power right? I pray to Jesus even when I attend one of these Catholic Church masses, to forgive them of their belief by not putting him and their prayers first. Because every Sunday when I walk into this Catholic Church I want pray in silence but instead I hear the rosary being prayed in the church before the mass has started, just how appalling is that? And they call themselves believers in Christ?. It just aches heart sometimes.

    • Dear Robnkarine.

      I know that what you say about Catholics seeming to be praying TO Saints and claiming Saints ANSWERED THEIR PRAYERS, etc. is true.

      However, despite being born and raised Protestant and thoroughly inculcated with abhorrence of Catholic idolotry, shortly after my conversion I was explaining the Catholic practice of “Prayer to the Saints” to a very good Protestant friend. And even i slipped into speaking as if the Saints were responsible for answers to prayers.

      I was surprised at myself. But, since I knew that I did not believe that the Saints actually were gods or that they by their own power answered prayer, I puzzled over the manner of speech I slipped into despite my desire and aim to be theologically correct. Then I realized that it was really nothing more than a simple human tendency to speak directly rather than in a longer more correct manner.

      I could say:

      I asked Mary to pray to God for me. (Theologically correct)

      But what Catholics end up saying is:

      I prayed to Mary. (Not theologically correct but short and sweet)

      This is because of two reasons:

      1) Asking a Saint in Heaven for intercessory prayer feels the same as prayer directly to God. Therefore, I prayed to God….I prayed to Mary. On the surface it sounds like the person is equating God and Mary but it is certainly possible to know the difference in one’s heart.

      2) Humans tend to speak as shortly and directly as possible as long as it communicates, unless you are speaking in a court of law or some other official capacity in which you MUST be absolutely precise. So, of course most human persons never do this in common everyday speech.

      But, a person of good will, will not be quick to condemn without further exploration of what the Catholic believer really means, especially given that our Church does not teach that the Saints are little deities. It may very well be that many Catholics are confused and their theology is not correct. But you will find incorrect theology among the masses of lay Protestants as well. Luckily for all of us, our God is a loving Father who wants every single person in Heaven with Him.

  6. Dear bfhu,

    From my experience, I would say that a majority are confused and have the wrong theology. But you are right, only God knows the heart.

    I came upon a few interesting things.

    Pope Francis sent a telegram to Bishop Franco Giulio Brambilla of Novara, Italy on the death of Cardinal Lorenzo Antonetti. In it the Pope stated:

    “I pray fervently to the Lord Jesus that He, through the Virgin Mary, may give the late cardinal the eternal reward promised to his faithful disciples.”

    Another quote:

    “Dear brothers and sisters, let us ask St. Joseph and the Virgin Mary to teach us to be faithful to our daily commitments, to live our faith in everyday actions and to give more space to the Lord in our lives, to stop to contemplate his face.”

    One more:
    “Let us pray to the Virgin Mary that she help us, bishop and people, to walk together in faith and charity.”

    Now, what is interesting is that, if like you said, asking something to Mary or a saint is like asking a brother to pray for us, then we surely would not ask for protection, teaching, eternal reward, etc..to a brother or sister.

    I admit that Protestants went too far and do not give honor to Mary just like it is written in Luke. But Catholics went way too far too.

    I know that one of your main argument is that nothing in the Catholic religion contradicts the Bible. It might not be find in the Bible but it does not contradicts it.

    The importance given to Mary is phenomenal. In the daily life of a catholic, she has a really great importance. She is mentionnend in prayers, called for advice, protection, etc.

    But why none of the 21 apostolic letters talks just a little bit about her?
    Why today is she everywhere, in all prayers, every sermons, every blessings, but never mentionned in any blessing or prayers by the main writers of the New Testament.
    I would call that a contradiction by omission.

    I am starting to know you a little and i am pretty sure you will come up with some writings of the early fathers. But, having read myself some of those writings, the proportion dedicated to Mary is nowhere near what is dedicated to Mary in the Catholic church today.

    I think there is something wrong here. Don’t you?

  7. Dear Robnkarine,

    I do understand why Protestants think we treat Mary with too much attention, but I understand the theology behind it and I just don’t find it problematic. We do believe that God has chosen to grace us through Mary for His own reasons. Just like Jesus came to us through Mary. The ten commandments came through Moses and the whole Bible came through various authors. God does not need to use humans to accomplish these things but it seems to be his modus operandi.

    The Protestant hysteria over Mary (not you) is due to a difference in religious culture and anti-catholic teaching they get, so they jump to very wrong conclusions.

    • Nope, it is due to the fact that it is just a combination of ancient Babylonian worship of Semiramus and Tammuz and the Eloheim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

  8. It was necromancy when Saul wanted to talk to dead Samuel, an amazing prophet and “saint.”

    Don’t pray to Mary or any other saint.

  9. Dear GP,

    If Catholicism is “just a combination of ancient Babylonian worship of Semiramus and Tammuz and the Eloheim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

    Then the Bible is a book of this same pagan religion. And the Bible was also canonized (≈400 AD) by a pagan religion according to your theory since the Catholic Church has had all of the same doctrines from the beginning.

    And Jesus’ promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church was not kept (if the Catholic Church is pagan) since the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church for 1000 years when the Orthodox churches split off but they still held 99% of the same beliefs as Catholicism. So it wasn’t until 1500 years after Christ when Martin Luther invented Sola Scriptura & Sola Fide, that Christiandom shattered into thousands of entities with disparate doctrines and beliefs and practices. Which is a direct slap in the face of Jesus’ desire that we all be one in John 17.

    So, if the Catholic Church is really just a pagan religion with a few Jewish ideas, then where is the real Christianity of history?

    Protestant Christianity is a jumbled mess of various conflicting beliefs that arose 1500 years after the birth of Jesus a mere 500 years ago. That can’t be the historical Christian Faith….it is too new. And the premise of sola scriptura makes every Bible reader infallible so people become so sure they have the infallible interpretation they start their own “church”, which has led to 13,000 Protestant denominations.

    Saul sought occult knowledge, divination, from the witch of Endor. That was necromancy. Asking our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in Heaven to pray for us is NOT Divination. It is NOT seeking Occult Knowleged and it is NOT trying to get secret, hidden information about the future.

    So, I ask you, where in history is the true Christian Faith?

    I am afraid you have been taught a pack of lies. Did you even read the post at the top?

    • There is a true church of God that he started on the day of pentacost. the Apostolic Church. In Acts 2:38 it says “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” This is the method of salvation, the new birth by water and spirit. as directed by Jesus in John 3:5. Babies can’t be baptized because they are unable to repent, being innocent. Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Father”, which is who we should pray to, and it is an example of prayer not something to repeat over and over again like the pagans who think they will be heard for their much speaking. Asking help of ANYTHING or ANYONE other than God is against his word. God is a jealous God and his glory he will not give to another. The apostles and the angels said “see that thou doest it not” when someone tried to honor them. There is no way that any servant of God would appear to someone and say build me a church. All glory goes to God. The commandments say thou shalt not make any graven image. period. of anything or anyone and shall not bow down to them or worship them. The Hebrew church does not have any images or anything in it because they understood this. Moses killed some of the Israelites because they wanted something to look at and made a bull and said this is our god that brought us out of Egypt. They didn’t say it was another god, They tried to make an image of Jehovah God and were destroyed for it. You are not to call any man Father. There are just so many things that the Catholics do that are traditions of men and not based in scripture. God has a particular way of doing things. he doesn’t settle because he doesn’t have to. When they tried to move the Ark of the covenant the way they thought they should someone died not for doing something sinful, just for doing it their own way. Then they checked the scriptures to see how it should be done and all went well when they moved the Ark according to God’s will. In Acts 19 Cornelius was praying and giving alms to the pool and an angel even appeared to him but the angel didn’t tell him he was so holy, he said to send to Joppa for Peter who would tell him how to be saved. Many good people try to follow God but are being led astray by the doctrines of the catholic church which has been keeping people from God for centuries. The insisted mass be said in latin so no-one could understand what was being said. They fought against those who wanted to translate the Bible into the common language to lay people could read it. Knowledge is power and they wanted to keep that for themselves. They tortured and killed those who did not agree with their beliefs. They sold “indulgances” and told people you could buy your way into heaven so they could be rich. They invented purgatory and told people they’d only have to suffer for a while and then get to go to heaven. They invented confession so you could just tell the priest and say a few hail Mary’s and it would be alright and then go back out and do it again next Saturday night. That’s not repentance. And you can’t earn your way into heaven. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. There is no one righteous, no not one. We are saved by grace and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Seek him with your whole heart and he will reveal himself to you.

  10. Catholics will never learn. There’s only one faith and one faith only and that is Christ Jesus.

  11. It is written and many witnessed Jesus say in John 14:6,”I am the way, and the truth, and the light, no one gets to the Father except through me.” How do you figure that anyone, saint , angel, or mother can intercede for you.! Timothy 2:5 ” For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” It’s spelled out the same in the Catholic version as it is in the NIV. I have not found one verse in the Bible that that tells us to or condones praying to anyone other than The Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. Not one.

  12. For Racheale: Let me try to explain …

    You’re very right to point out that our bibles speak the same truth that Jesus Christ is the “one mediator between God and men” in 1 Tm 2:5. We all believe in this exclusivity but does it nullify the other biblical prescription which urges Christians also to offer up “prayers, intercessions” among other things? We even see Paul directly asking others to pray for him (Rom 15:30–32, Eph 6:18–20, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1), for which he also assured them that he was praying for them (2 Thess 1:11). The point is that while Christ is uniquely the “one” mediator, we can still function as a type of co-mediator in a subordinate way by offering up intercessory prayers for the sake of others (“This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior”). By reading 1 Tim 2 more critically, we see how it only speaks of the reality that Christ is the one mediator between God and man, but it’s another thing to claim that God only wants us to pray directly to Christ alone.

    In the Church founded by Christ, there is an established theological vocabulary which conveys precision and exactness for the content of faith for the ages. In the order of the “rule of language,” the Church has carefully distinguished between the honor that is given God and the honor proffered to the saints. As early as AD 787 in the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, it defined “adoration” given to God alone as “latreia” (Gk.) and the veneration to saints and angels as “douleia.” In the latter, we ask the saints and angels for intercessory prayers to God in the name of Christ. So praying can certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God but it is not necessarily equated with it. In fact, the word “pray” comes from the Latin word “precari” which simply means to entreat and supplicate. When KJV translated 1 Kg 2:20 in Old English to say “I pray thee, say me not nay,” it is not presenting Bathsheba as adoring or praying to her son as God.

    And there are certainly scriptural verses for the seekers. For instance, St. John sees that “the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).

  13. Yes Paul asked the living if they can include him in their prayers. Even if we do not know your situation and that you are a family member or a friend or good friend I will still add you your name in my prayer that you be watched over and kept safe from harm. But Paul is not asking the dead to pray for him to God and to Jesus. So why are we still on this same subject. The revelation is coming the rapture is coming. No body comes to the father but through Jesus Christ himself. It’ll not be Mary to come down on judgement day it’ll Jesus to resurrect the dead. And perhaps Mary has not been resurrected herself, neither has Paul, or John, or so and so. Remember on judgement day Jesus will first raise Abraham, David, and so on. Man I can’t believe this conversation is still going on.

  14. And for “d”:

    … and I also can’t believe that you have been so slow in understanding. Heaven must be a very dead place for you. Sorry, but Catholics believe that our God is a God of the living (Mt 22: 31-32) and that death is not a barrier which separates us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:38-39). I beg to inform you but the saints in heaven (more than anyone on earth) are also much alive and that they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb 12:23), meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious (Jas 5:16). So, by also asserting this novel (heretical) doctrine of Rapture theory, I assume that you believe in the THIRD Coming of our Lord, right? And so I see that you obviously believe that heaven is also very EMPTY now. I’m wondering what Moses and Elijah, if dead and still very dead, were standing and discussing with Christ on the Mt. of Transfiguration? I also wonder where are Elijah and Enoch now since they also apparently never died physically? And don’t forget the very active 24 elders in heaven with the prayers of the saints in Rev 5:8. According to you, they are all supposed to be “asleep” until resurrection day, right?

    Let’s have a decent conversation if you still believe in your bible.

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