Ouija Board, Tarot cards and other Divination tools.
Dan: Regarding Praying to Mary!
“What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to the dead?”
Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.
BREAD FROM HEAVEN: I am sure that your pastor taught you this and used this verse to back up his denunciation of the Catholic Church. But, what is condemned is DIVINATION-(the occult practice of trying to get information from the dead in order to make decisions) NOT Intercessory prayer requests.
So the purpose for speaking to the dead when practicing DIVINATION is SEEKING OCCULT INFORMATION.
Let’s define our terms.
Definition of OCCULT
1: not revealed : secret
2: not easily apprehended or understood : abstruse, mysterious
3: hidden from view
Witchcraft
Definition of DIVINATION: Practice of discerning the hidden significance of events and foretelling the future. Divination is found in all societies, ancient and modern, though methods vary. In the West, psychics claim innate ability to predict the future, and horoscopes, palm reading, and tarot cards are popular methods of divination. Other methods involve or have involved interpreting dreams, discovering omens in natural events, reading the entrails of animals, casting lots, and consulting oracles. Divination has long been viewed as the province of specially gifted persons, such as prophets, shamans, and magicians. See also astrology.
When we ask the dead (but alive in Heaven) to pray for us we are asking for intercessory prayer. We are asking them to pray for us. We are not asking them for information in order to make decisions.
If you notice your quote above:
Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”
Consults has a very different meaning than “speak to”.
Definiton of Consults: to ask the advice or opinion of
Exactly as the I Chron. passage says: Saul “consulted a medium for guidance”
And here is the Deuteronomy passage:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
Definition of NECROMANCY: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
I Sam 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
As you can see, DIVINATION through necromancy, consulting a medium is the seeking of hidden (occult) information for decision making or attempts to control events. This is what God condemns because we are to trust Him; seek guidance only from Him. This is because God knows that the so called “dead” consulted in necromancy are not really the spirits of a human person but DEMONS disguised as the intended person.
A DEMON would NEVER join us in praying to God for anything. Therefore when we ask someone, in Heaven, to pray for us we do not have to worry about contacting Demons. They lose any power over us. We ask for prayers only not for information. Therefore, we also do not need to be afraid we will be led astray by Demons either because we give them no power to give us any information.
It is very sloppy exegesis to tell people that Divination is the same thing as asking for intercessory prayer and is therefore condemned by God in the OT.
Filed under: Prayer to Saints | Tagged: consulting the deat, Divination, Necromancy, spiritism |
Bread From Heaven 
I am still not convinced. God created us not Mary. It us God through Jesus who taught us how to pray and whom to pray to, not Mary. Prayer directly to God whether confessing your sins, asking for fogiveness or praying to Jesus for someone else’s well being, not to Mary. You see this is what is bringing the devil closer to mankind. This I suspect is how he manipulates our believing in God. Mary was a believer too when was living and had no choice but to obey how God had chosen her to be the mother of Christ. Even she prayed to God for more guidance. When these Carholics pray the rosary, I mean common only one Our Father and ten Hail Marys!? I think the new Pope should look more into how prayers are conducted.
Dear Daniel,
This is your opinion. You have no scripture that says asking for the intercession of the Saints is wrong. You seem to create a strawman argument when you declare that:
“God made us and not Mary.”
We agree.
“Also Jesus taught us to pray, not Mary.”
We agree. What is your point. We both agree with this. But this does not prove that we cannot ask for Mary to intercede for us.
You assert that this is “bringing the devil closer to mankind.” But you offer no evidence or proof for your assertion other than doctrine that we both agree about. Therefore, this is merely your opinion.
However, Mary certainly did have a choice to give God permission to bring the Messiah through her womb. She could have said, “No,thanks”
Not that this matters but Protestants often resort to condemning the Hail Mary because, they point out, there is a ratio of 10 to 1. It is true that there is one Our Father to ten Hail Mary’s for each decade or mystery of the Rosary, but there are also ten…
and one
So, that is
1 Our Father,
10 Hail Marys and
10 “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS!” and
1 “Glory Be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.” So, in actuallity, prayers to God outnumber the Hail Marys. And the Hail Marys are merely requests for intercessory prayer to God anyway.
Bottom line bfhu, prayers go to God and Jesus only not to Mary. I am sure you’ll agree that the bible never taught us to pray to Mary if we needed help. This is the Catholics rendition of praying. It is the devils way of making a joke of thate whole religion itself. Mary believed in the Lord which is why the Lord chose her, not her giving God the permission to conceive Jesus. Not once in the bible have I ever read that Mary is the go to person if God is busy. You guys say read the history and understand the interpretation of the scripture or from the gospel.
Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Daniel,
I see you have faith, keep it for through it your works will grow; which is good before God.
If a man and his works, and his words, and his thoughts, and his will is in accordance with scripture than he has nothing to lose or fear!
Because then who can say to you that the kingdom of God is not yours if your life bears much fruit and your Faith is strong and great?
With faith and works you then belong to Christ, it means you believe and live for Christ.
Even if the Catholics were right, if you follow the word of God that your works, thoughts, faith, will, etc are all be aligned to Jesus, what will you lose if this is the case?
With faith in Christ all else will be added onto you, so follow the word of God, and life will be given, or who can take it away? No one!
Keep strong with faith in Christ daily and heaven will not deny you.
May you be blessed and rich in God.
The significance of the action of praying to one other than god. “Mark this well; there is not one verse of the scripture in the New Testament anywhere which authorized anybody to intercede with God after death. We are told to pray for one another only while on earth. Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is suppose to be directed to god while we are alive. There is no authority in scripture for prayers either by, to or for the dead. Yet this is the cardinal tradition of the Roman Catholic church- a tradition which the 4th chapter of Hebrews very pointedly contradicts.”
There is not one place in the New Testament that people pray to Mary or saints in the early church the apostles never wrote of it in the book of Acts or the epistles. There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead. and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.
Dear Dan,
Your comment contains a quote but we are not told who said it. It is put forth as if it is some kind of authority. But it is just a man who said it. It is not even from scripture nor does it contain even one quote of scripture.
Let me be clear. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant doctrine. You are bound by it. Catholic belief may not contradict scripture but we are not bound to prove everything we believe by supporting it with scripture, the way Protestants claim they do.
However, we have here a clear example of how Protestants believe what they believe because they believe it. They have no scripture support for everything they believe. They have no Christian history support for it all, except from Martin Luther who began many of the Protestant Traditions of men.
Your quote said:
We are told to pray for one another only while on earth. Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is suppose to be directed to god while we are alive.
Where are we told, to pray for one another only while on earth?
Where are we told, Prayer that is blessed by God is prayer which is supposed to be directed to god while we are alive?
There is NO SUCH SCRIPTURE. These are nothing more than Protestants interpretations and expansion of scripture, but they are NOT actually found in Scripture. There is not one word in Hebrews 4 about praying to the Saints. But there is Scripture that commends prayer for the dead:
Of course, Martin Luther removed this and six other books from the Old Testament because he did not agree with the Catholic Doctrine supported by these books.
Dan, there is not one place in the New Testament that prohibits prayer to Mary or saints. You believe this but only based on Protestant Traditions of Men. Your belief is NOT based on a single scripture. Prayer for the dead and asking for intercessory prayer from the saints has been practiced since the early church.
The words that God spoke Old Testament and what Jesus spoke in the New Testament is convincing enough for me. Jesus said believe in God and believe in Jesus because we are one in the same. I don’t pray to dead people nor do I believe that Mary will be our best intercessor because it is being chanted, “holy Mary mother of God Pray for us sinners. It will not be Mary to come back to do judgement and I have never read in the bible that Mary also took part in following Jesus and the disciples. I am a believer. I will and always will abide by God’s law and I try to live in Jesus’ words. I pray to Jesus and to Jesus only and not forgetting he died for my sins. I don’t honor repetitious prayers such as praying the rosary. I pray only the Lord’s prayer that he Jesus has mentioned and taught to learn how to Pray the Lord’s prayer.
Like I mentioned. I read only God and Jesus’ words and I am learning from it and trying to stay steady at it. Research does not matter to me. what God and Jesus is trying to say is what matters to me. When God instructed for his temple to be built he did not order statues. When Jesus walked into his father’s temple and saw people making it to be a market place he did not order for statues to be put up of God or the saints or the angels or even Mary. Who knows Catholics are the ones who started the whole thing and no I am not judging either. When I walk into the church I pray to hear the scriptures being read but I don’t pay attention to those so called statues put up all around inside the church. In this church, Catholic church I attend, my meditating silent prayer to God is always interrupted by people praying the rosary in what the Catholics call the church of God. Now that is appalling desecrating church with all these statues especially the statue of Mary.
Amen Dan, Truly you know Christ: For as Christ said to the devil it is written when he fought the temptations, I also say it is written to prove the Word of God:
So it is written in 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
When a Catholic tells you otherwise Just says it is written and quote 1 Tim 2:5.
We must remember that Christ grace is sufficient enough for us, that the works of religion will not save us (works of religion refers to doing things like praying the rosary, going to confession, etc.)
Jesus tells us to do that which benefits the spirit and not to do vainles things. Prayer and Fast is of spirit but vainles repetition is not.
Dear Lion of Judah,
The Catholic Church agrees that “there is one Mediator between God and men, the man (GodMan) Jesus Christ. He is both God and Man therefore He is the ONE mediator, “who gave Himself as a ransom for all people.”. Do you condemn asking for others to pray for you, prayer chains, intercessory prayer? Please note the verses in I Tim 2:1-4 that precede the verse you cited.
The Catholic Church believes that we are saved by Christ alone. Prayers, rosaries,etc are not done for salvation but as a devotion to Our LORD.
Please note, VAIN repetition is criticized. That does not mean all repetition only VAIN repetionion.
BFHU
What you say is true, let petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made for all people.
I did not disagree with this point, let it be done.
But how can I pray to my friend in Africa to ask him to pray for me?
Or how can I pray to my brother in Austria to provide intercession for me? and what intercession do I need for him? when the clear intercession is provided in the word of God? Let those who are in need of intercession LISTEN TO PUBLIC TEACHINGS. This is what is important.
If you need intercession or help, ask he who dwells with you in your mansion. Ask those who are wise, for God made them wise so that we can seek help in times of misunderstanding, conflict, confusion, etc.
If my life is dying, or if my life is darkening and I feel anxiety, who should I call to help me, Mary?
Or should I call he who is all-seeing, all present, unlike the saints who don’t have the Omni attributes; the scripture says to cast your sorrows unto the Lord, and not unto the dead, the dead will worry for themselves. Follow him who comes and goes from heaven, he that the angles, the hosts of the Lord ascend and descend upon.
Do you not know that the Lord as made wise man through his word here in your very house that you dwell, cast your sorrows on the Lord and go speak to the public teachers and ask for help. If you are hungry, you ask your neighbor, not your friend, or your brother because their are not your neighbors and because they are far from you, so is it with the kingdom of God.
If your neighbor is dead than ask the Lord who is all-seeing, all-knowing, and all present because then he can send your brother and friend, even your guardian to do what they have been taxed from him.
If you need help, don’t pray to the servants of the king, but ask the king who as the power to give bread that never dies.
Catholics may profess that they agree with Christ man being our only mediator with their lips, but through their course of action they deny it.
I barely ever see my mom pray to the Lord, she has a greater intercessor; Christ’s mom, Mary. She knows the dead in Christ more than she knows Christ, and if we don’t know Christ, than Christ will not know you, scripture reveals that if we know Christ we follow his commandments, if we know him we follow him and if we know and follow him we than in return LOVE him.
But Catholics follow Mary, she is the star, the main character in the religion Catholicism. Catholics pervert Mary, they turn her into a goddess, which is against the Word of the Lord.
Catholics seek life in the saint, and Mary but not Christ. But we know we have life in Christ alone, for he is the way the truth and the life.
I see those who know scripture follow the commandments of Christ; and the Catholics follow the tradition of men, and I say men because these traditions are not heavenly nor are they from heaven but are made here on earth, men tradition.
Forsake religion, none is true, there were made to distract us: Christ is in the Kingdom of God, not in religion. But there is a relationship we share and that is the relationship in Christ, that is what it means to be a Christian, not religion but instead to be made alive in spirit to God.
Religion does not bring salvation, only Christ… let us therefore in our congregations praise the LORD!!!
p.s by the way, what does bfhu stand for?
p.s.s do I write (p.s) all lower case or upper case?
p.s.s.s I forgot to say: what makes vain repetition isn’t repetition but the vanity and emptiness in the phrases that are said repetitively.
e.g Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death: there was a time when I and my family is all that we prayed before we went to bed.
We didn’t speak in spirit or truth to our Lord, all we said was that, not understanding what we are speaking about.
Sorry to everyone and Dan, this comment was not made for Dan, it was made for Kuni.
Dan, I’m not sure if Mary the mother of Christ actually followed Jesus, but I can see it possible if she did, because we know she was present at the cross of Jesus.
Plus, where else would Mary be? Mary knew who Christ was, and she knew his mission, the living word of God was one EARTH!!! It would be crazy if she didn’t decide to follow Jesus.
So it only makes sense if she decided to follow him than to stay home doing nothing, plus who would provide for her, because we know she was a woman she probably did work or have a Job, unless if she decided to stay at relatives or friends which is possible.
Nevertheless, keep up the Faith, your belief in Christ is visibly strong.
God bless you and make you rich in spirit, and grow in faith through this journey of sanctification to the cross.
p.s does anyone know how to delete a comment?
The reason Luther removed the apocryphal books is because neither Jesus nor the apostles used the, nor did the second temple Jews or early Christians. It was rejected by most if not all of the church fathers as well.
Only God, is worthy of prayer, only he can receive praise. You are saying that there are not Bible passages showing that praying to mary is a sin. Well let me introduce you to a few, (there are many more that what i write to you). Lets start off with Daniels friends who would not bow down before a statue, but rather die in a fire. Why was that? because they knew that this was Idol worship. If you read the passage, the law was that they where not allow to ask for anything from anybody else that the King himself, who made himself God.
There are thousands of Catholic’s are bowing down before statues, pictures of saints, or Mary (how herself was a sinner) asking for things. Its a clear lie of Satan. Then if you see o two occasions in acts,
( Acts 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” ) ( and Acts 14:13 – 15 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. ¶ But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
“Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. last passage is in Rev.19:10 )
Here we see clearly that none of the church fathers wanted anybody to bow down before them, as they considered themselves unworthy of prayer, or worship. Satan is always wanting to take away the glory and Worship of God, deflecting it. You can chose to follow his lie, and promote the worship of dead people who cant hear you, Or you can point like John the Baptist to the Redeemer Jesus Christ in glorifying him.
Dear Kuni,
Asking Saints for intercessory prayer is no different and no more like idol worship than asking friends on a prayer chain to pray for your intention. When we ask for a Saint to join their prayers to ours we are not worshipping them. That is just a silly Protestant notion. We are merely asking for them to pray to God for us. Your Bible passages refer to idolotry not to asking other Christians for intercessory prayer. When we kneel before a statue or picture to pray, we are NOT worshipping the Saint, the picture, or the statue. It is uncharitable to jump to such a conclusion, but I know it is what you have been taught to believe about Catholics. It is a Protestant Tradition of Men. Please take a look at this post—->Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols.
Amen Kuni
Believe in the Lord, and not the servant of the Lord: because the servant of the Lord has no authority to give the bread of life!
But he who came from heaven and descended and ascended on High is the bread of life, he has the power to give it to the poor, the rich, the hungry, and the thirty.
FOREVER BE THE GLORY, KINGDOM, AND POWER TO GOD!!!
I think I already talked to you about this but I could not resist to add a few things.
bfhu:We are merely asking for them to pray to God for us.
The real problem with what you are saying is that there is a huge gap between the official doctrine(“it’s not prayer to saints, it is asking for intercessory) and the reality of what is happening everyday in the Catholic Church(the church I was born in, by the way). In my pro-life organisation, my Catholics friends that I love are asking prayers TO Mary:
“I asked Mary to show me which way to take and she did!”
“Dear Mary, come to my rescue”
And that’s not mentionning the prayers to saints who have specialties!
“I asked Saint-____________ to help me find my ring and he did!
bfhu:That is just a silly Protestant notion.
I am sorry, but I was not brainwashed by Protestant doctrine, I am witnessing those things on a daily basis. And I have to say that most of your explanations on differents topics make sense in theory, but unfortunetaly, in practice, the followers of your Church do not follow your own beliefs (not here anyway:Quebec, Canada)
How come those wrong behaviors and doctrines interpretations were able to creep in the Church if truly, the Catholic Church is the Church of God.
bfhu:Asking Saints for intercessory prayer is no different and no more like idol worship than asking friends on a prayer chain to pray for your intention. When we ask for a Saint to join their prayers to ours we are not worshipping them
Well, you are giving dead people Godly attributes(omnipresence…- they can hear everybody on earth at the same time). And again the majority of Catholics (again in my region) do not ask for intercessory prayers, they really pray TO Mary or a saint.
You know Rob, Catholic believers one of them like bfhu can continue to believe that praying to Mary, the Saints and the Angel asking them to help in their prayers to talk to Jesus. They have to remember that Satan is a very good manipulator and a very good illusionist. He has the power right? I pray to Jesus even when I attend one of these Catholic Church masses, to forgive them of their belief by not putting him and their prayers first. Because every Sunday when I walk into this Catholic Church I want pray in silence but instead I hear the rosary being prayed in the church before the mass has started, just how appalling is that? And they call themselves believers in Christ?. It just aches heart sometimes.
Oh yeah I have been to those, Before masses they would do rosary and after adoration.
But this is not right because these things are tradition of men, un least the Jews had their tradition come from heaven because God commanded them, these Catholic have their tradition opposite to the Jews regarding its origin.
Believe in the Lord who came to take away tradition, he came to take away blood sacrifice, he came to take away a relationship to God that was based on earthly works, But christ came to bring a relationship based on the Spirit and Truth in communion with God, a relationship of Spiritual works, he came to be the one ultimate blood sacrifice for all time.
Once religion was justified during the time of the ancient Israelites, but Christ came that we may be in the kingdom of God which is heavenly and not earthly, which is above and not here, which is holy and not religion.
When Christ said destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days, did he mean the earthly temple?
but his temple which is not from this world but of Heaven is the temple he was talking about; his body.
So is the same, when Christ told Peter and commissioned him to begin the construction of the Church, did he mean to build a church of bricks and stones (the Catholic church)?
For we know Christ said to Peter I will make you fisherman of man! That is how we know the Church is not bricks and stone but the people who part take in the new covenant (which is not the Eucharist) the new covenant is that relationship of Spirit and truth I was talking about; that relationship brings us to God!
Whoever does not eat christ has no life! But the bread of life which is Christ is not flesh but the spirit, for the flesh has no life!
To eat Christ is not to eat him, to have him in us and us in him, truly the apostles eat Christ, because they were with him and in him, and Chris was in them and them in Christ.
Whoever does not have Christ does not know the Father, and whoever does not know the Father, Christ will not have them and since they don’t have Christ (who is life) they will not be given life.
Forever be the Glory to God! And the kingdom and power to the Lamb of God, the Lion of Judah!
Dear Robnkarine.
I know that what you say about Catholics seeming to be praying TO Saints and claiming Saints ANSWERED THEIR PRAYERS, etc. is true.
However, despite being born and raised Protestant and thoroughly inculcated with abhorrence of Catholic idolotry, shortly after my conversion I was explaining the Catholic practice of “Prayer to the Saints” to a very good Protestant friend. And even i slipped into speaking as if the Saints were responsible for answers to prayers.
I was surprised at myself. But, since I knew that I did not believe that the Saints actually were gods or that they by their own power answered prayer, I puzzled over the manner of speech I slipped into despite my desire and aim to be theologically correct. Then I realized that it was really nothing more than a simple human tendency to speak directly rather than in a longer more correct manner.
I could say:
But what Catholics end up saying is:
This is because of two reasons:
1) Asking a Saint in Heaven for intercessory prayer feels the same as prayer directly to God. Therefore, I prayed to God….I prayed to Mary. On the surface it sounds like the person is equating God and Mary but it is certainly possible to know the difference in one’s heart.
2) Humans tend to speak as shortly and directly as possible as long as it communicates, unless you are speaking in a court of law or some other official capacity in which you MUST be absolutely precise. So, of course most human persons never do this in common everyday speech.
But, a person of good will, will not be quick to condemn without further exploration of what the Catholic believer really means, especially given that our Church does not teach that the Saints are little deities. It may very well be that many Catholics are confused and their theology is not correct. But you will find incorrect theology among the masses of lay Protestants as well. Luckily for all of us, our God is a loving Father who wants every single person in Heaven with Him.
That is very true, Catholics have a tendency to say right but their works show left in terms of their beliefs.
One might say I don’t worship the saints, I just pray to them, ask them for help when in times of help and confusion, and at times we devot ourselves to them so that the Lord may be Glorified: That which you do not is clear in that which you say when you explain further.
i.e the words that Catholics say contradicts what they do and what they say.
Grap a video recording of a Catholic in prayers position kneeling down to Mary and asking for her intercession, and put him in a different picture of him to a golden statue of a calf but the recording of the words that the Catholic says is the same but every time the listeners hear Mary it will be replaced with the name Kaal (Kaal is a name I just made up synonymous to Baal.)
Grap an Atheist, a Hindu, a Jew, a protestant, an agnostic, and they will all say: this man is a pagan because he is worshipping a cow.
Now grab a Catholic they will say the same: this man worships a cow.
All these people with different perspectives will know that this one man worships a cow. This proves that objectively, Catholics are worshiping a made-up goddess. The Mary that Catholics believe in is not the same Mary from scripture.
(remember this is just an example to prove my point).
That Catholics cannot deny objectively what they do, but they do with their lips. The very words they say are a testimony to the fact they worship and pervert the very mother of Christ with a false goddess imposter. Remember satan himself is an imposter, he pretends and acts like he is someone else; Joseph smith declared that he saw Christ when clearly we all know that it was an imposter, an impressionist demon that declares to be Christ.
Who is Jesus for? Is he for Catholics, or Protestant?Is he for Religion? No! Don’t we all agree that Christ is for believers of the Faith and Believers of Christ? who can deny what I’m saying?
(I’m not preaching a coexist doctrine, I’m against that if anyone is was confused and wondering. I believe that religion will not save anyone but the blood that Christ will, I am a none denominational Christian, who believes in Christ alone.)
May the Glory be to God!!!!!! FOREVER AND FOREVER!!!!!!
Robnkarine
Well put!
Are you a non-denominational Christian?
Because you said: I am sorry, but I was not brainwashed by Protestant doctrine, I am witnessing those things on a daily basis.
I am also a non-denominational Christian, though I don’t call myself that but simply a Christian, and sometimes just a follower of Christ, or a believer in Christ.
I just wanted to know because I have never seen another non-denominational Christian, except for my friend, Holy is his name.
Dear bfhu,
From my experience, I would say that a majority are confused and have the wrong theology. But you are right, only God knows the heart.
I came upon a few interesting things.
Pope Francis sent a telegram to Bishop Franco Giulio Brambilla of Novara, Italy on the death of Cardinal Lorenzo Antonetti. In it the Pope stated:
“I pray fervently to the Lord Jesus that He, through the Virgin Mary, may give the late cardinal the eternal reward promised to his faithful disciples.”
Another quote:
“Dear brothers and sisters, let us ask St. Joseph and the Virgin Mary to teach us to be faithful to our daily commitments, to live our faith in everyday actions and to give more space to the Lord in our lives, to stop to contemplate his face.”
One more:
“Let us pray to the Virgin Mary that she help us, bishop and people, to walk together in faith and charity.”
Now, what is interesting is that, if like you said, asking something to Mary or a saint is like asking a brother to pray for us, then we surely would not ask for protection, teaching, eternal reward, etc..to a brother or sister.
I admit that Protestants went too far and do not give honor to Mary just like it is written in Luke. But Catholics went way too far too.
I know that one of your main argument is that nothing in the Catholic religion contradicts the Bible. It might not be find in the Bible but it does not contradicts it.
The importance given to Mary is phenomenal. In the daily life of a catholic, she has a really great importance. She is mentionnend in prayers, called for advice, protection, etc.
But why none of the 21 apostolic letters talks just a little bit about her?
Why today is she everywhere, in all prayers, every sermons, every blessings, but never mentionned in any blessing or prayers by the main writers of the New Testament.
I would call that a contradiction by omission.
I am starting to know you a little and i am pretty sure you will come up with some writings of the early fathers. But, having read myself some of those writings, the proportion dedicated to Mary is nowhere near what is dedicated to Mary in the Catholic church today.
I think there is something wrong here. Don’t you?
Dear Robnkarine,
I do understand why Protestants think we treat Mary with too much attention, but I understand the theology behind it and I just don’t find it problematic. We do believe that God has chosen to grace us through Mary for His own reasons. Just like Jesus came to us through Mary. The ten commandments came through Moses and the whole Bible came through various authors. God does not need to use humans to accomplish these things but it seems to be his modus operandi.
The Protestant hysteria over Mary (not you) is due to a difference in religious culture and anti-catholic teaching they get, so they jump to very wrong conclusions.
Nope, it is due to the fact that it is just a combination of ancient Babylonian worship of Semiramus and Tammuz and the Eloheim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The reason why God accomplishes his plans through humans is possible because of two reasons
1) That the Glory of God is magnified
2) That God loves to share his power: we know that in heaven there is a council of hosts that alongside God, determining big decisions (the story of Job) that God makes: we know that God created all things; vegetation, planets, stars, animals, dogs, cats, lions, water, birds, the whole UNIVERSE!!! So then why would God need help in making choices? It’s not that he needs help, but rather it’s because God loves to share his power!!!
Though God loves to share his power, the Glory goes to God alone.
God doesn’t need angels or servants, but he is glorified through them because it shows how RICH God is.
If I was a multi-billionaire, I wouldn’t need a Huge mansion or thousands of expensive cars and property and clothes to live a normal life, but these things show my richness and I would be glorified through them, so as it with God.
(I’m not saying people should get this things and be attached to them, this is just an example and people should be poor in spirit in the name of Christ!)
I believe that God used Moses to do wonderful things, just as he used Mary to give birth Jesus, but I don’t believe glory goes to Mary, but rather God: And I know you Catholics say we don’t show or give the glory to Mary, but the things Catholics say in general and the things they do only testifies otherwise: No man should build statues of Moses and pray to him.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
This creed is of the Catholics and I believe in it!
And because I believe this, I glorify the Lord and boast in his name!
It was necromancy when Saul wanted to talk to dead Samuel, an amazing prophet and “saint.”
Don’t pray to Mary or any other saint.
Dear GP,
If Catholicism is “just a combination of ancient Babylonian worship of Semiramus and Tammuz and the Eloheim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Then the Bible is a book of this same pagan religion. And the Bible was also canonized (≈400 AD) by a pagan religion according to your theory since the Catholic Church has had all of the same doctrines from the beginning.
And Jesus’ promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church was not kept (if the Catholic Church is pagan) since the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church for 1000 years when the Orthodox churches split off but they still held 99% of the same beliefs as Catholicism. So it wasn’t until 1500 years after Christ when Martin Luther invented Sola Scriptura & Sola Fide, that Christiandom shattered into thousands of entities with disparate doctrines and beliefs and practices. Which is a direct slap in the face of Jesus’ desire that we all be one in John 17.
So, if the Catholic Church is really just a pagan religion with a few Jewish ideas, then where is the real Christianity of history?
Protestant Christianity is a jumbled mess of various conflicting beliefs that arose 1500 years after the birth of Jesus a mere 500 years ago. That can’t be the historical Christian Faith….it is too new. And the premise of sola scriptura makes every Bible reader infallible so people become so sure they have the infallible interpretation they start their own “church”, which has led to 13,000 Protestant denominations.
Saul sought occult knowledge, divination, from the witch of Endor. That was necromancy. Asking our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in Heaven to pray for us is NOT Divination. It is NOT seeking Occult Knowleged and it is NOT trying to get secret, hidden information about the future.
So, I ask you, where in history is the true Christian Faith?
I am afraid you have been taught a pack of lies. Did you even read the post at the top?
There is a true church of God that he started on the day of pentacost. the Apostolic Church. In Acts 2:38 it says “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” This is the method of salvation, the new birth by water and spirit. as directed by Jesus in John 3:5. Babies can’t be baptized because they are unable to repent, being innocent. Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Father”, which is who we should pray to, and it is an example of prayer not something to repeat over and over again like the pagans who think they will be heard for their much speaking. Asking help of ANYTHING or ANYONE other than God is against his word. God is a jealous God and his glory he will not give to another. The apostles and the angels said “see that thou doest it not” when someone tried to honor them. There is no way that any servant of God would appear to someone and say build me a church. All glory goes to God. The commandments say thou shalt not make any graven image. period. of anything or anyone and shall not bow down to them or worship them. The Hebrew church does not have any images or anything in it because they understood this. Moses killed some of the Israelites because they wanted something to look at and made a bull and said this is our god that brought us out of Egypt. They didn’t say it was another god, They tried to make an image of Jehovah God and were destroyed for it. You are not to call any man Father. There are just so many things that the Catholics do that are traditions of men and not based in scripture. God has a particular way of doing things. he doesn’t settle because he doesn’t have to. When they tried to move the Ark of the covenant the way they thought they should someone died not for doing something sinful, just for doing it their own way. Then they checked the scriptures to see how it should be done and all went well when they moved the Ark according to God’s will. In Acts 19 Cornelius was praying and giving alms to the pool and an angel even appeared to him but the angel didn’t tell him he was so holy, he said to send to Joppa for Peter who would tell him how to be saved. Many good people try to follow God but are being led astray by the doctrines of the catholic church which has been keeping people from God for centuries. The insisted mass be said in latin so no-one could understand what was being said. They fought against those who wanted to translate the Bible into the common language to lay people could read it. Knowledge is power and they wanted to keep that for themselves. They tortured and killed those who did not agree with their beliefs. They sold “indulgances” and told people you could buy your way into heaven so they could be rich. They invented purgatory and told people they’d only have to suffer for a while and then get to go to heaven. They invented confession so you could just tell the priest and say a few hail Mary’s and it would be alright and then go back out and do it again next Saturday night. That’s not repentance. And you can’t earn your way into heaven. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. There is no one righteous, no not one. We are saved by grace and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Seek him with your whole heart and he will reveal himself to you.
Dear Apostolic,
You might find this post contradictory to your contention:
Tradition of Men: Catholics worship Idols.
Why did Jesus rebuke the temple of the Jews, so that he can build another one of bricks and stones?
Your mind is perverted and has come to the wrong conclusion if you think that Christ came to build another earthly temple!
Christ did not come to build a religion or an earthly temple, but one of the spirit: Jesus said: destroy this temple and I will raise it again in 3 days.
This is the temple that Christ came to build, the temple of God, is his body!
If you think that when christ said church, he meant a building than your wrong!
But he came to build a holy church, a holy temple one without fault. What gives life from flesh except that which comes from heaven?
Did not Christ himself not say that he is the bread of life? And what church contains the bread of life? The Catholic church?
No because we know that the world cannot contain Christ because he is not for the world!!!
The bread of life is not of the flesh! For the flesh has no life, but Christ is Spirit that gives life; the bread of life is Spirit and so the church that contains him is not flesh but spirit! The church that contains him is not of sticks and stones because these elements hurt, but spirit provides healing and gives life to all creation!
Does not the orthodox split from the Catholic church? And on whose authority did this happen? On the belief and authority of men did this happen!
So how then can we say that the Catholic church came from God when it’s beginnings are the same as the Orthodox! The split from the truth and God is the origins of the Catholic Church.
Both Catholics and Orthodox come from men, and so they both will be destroyed by God! The works of men will pass away, and the buildings and structures are the works of men and that’s why they will pass away! But the word of God remains forever! Is this not written?
Are any of the believers who were eaten and killed by lions and wild beasts Catholics?
How about this, did any of them believe in the doctrines of the Catholic Church today? NO! They were believers of the truth and this is why they were killed!
Why did the Catholics kill thousands in the past? and why did the Protestant lie, greedy and also kill? Because both of these Churches are not of the spirit!
For if they were they would not kill but give life! These churches are daughters of men and have the lust of men, which is the pride of life, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of eyes!
This is why they both fail, and die and sin because they are of their father’s works of men.
Christ came because of this: (also proven by scripture)
To heal the blind, the lame, the leper, the sick, to give life to the dead, to love, to care, to glorify God, to bring us to God, to make us the WAY, to be the TRUTH that stands out and shines to all corners of the world, to bring LIFE, to bring division! he came to give himself to us! to be the bridge between God and all humanity, he came as the ladder prophesied to Joseph, that he saw the angels of the Lord ascending and descending on him! He came to be the king of kings, prince of peace, everlasting Lord, everlasting word, the word of God, Rabbi of Rabbi, he came to be a great wonderful counselor to all nations, he came that the earth may be forgiven, that his blood may even be given even unto the sea and its creatures! He came to serve and become last so that the Father is glorified through him. I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD AND YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH HIS SON, who came to give grace to us. he came to cure the world of the deadliest decease, he came indeed in flesh to be like us so that we may be like him, he came to give himself to us so that we can give ourselves to him!
He came to make us righteous in his blood, to be made perfect by his grace, to be forgiven by his mercy, to be set apart by his nature from the world, to live according to his commandment and to live like he did with LOVE that never dies! I believe in ONE GOD! indeed I believe in ONE GOD, ONE TRUTH, ONE WAY, ONE LIFE, ONE LOVE, ONE KING, ONE BODY, ONE LORD, ONE ABOVE ALL, ONE STRENGTH!!! ONE GOVERNMENT ABOVE ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS!!! WE ARE CALLED TO BE HIS AMBASSADOR OF HIS GOVERNMENT OF HIS KINGDOM!!! No one can come before him! No one can compare to him! No one can be him or replace him for he is everlasting King of Kings, Lords of Lords, the one and only everlasting POWER!
And for all these things he came and many more good things, but he did not come to build and start a religion.
Forever be the Glory to God!
Christ came to build:
a new relationship, a new covenant, a new link, a new connection, a new bridge between God and humanity a new life for the poor, weak, the dead and for all man who are willing to give up their life for his true life that lives forever; and the Christ Jesus is that bridge, relationship, covenant, link, and connection and life!!!
FOREVER BE THE GLORY TO GOD!!!
Catholics will never learn. There’s only one faith and one faith only and that is Christ Jesus.
It is written and many witnessed Jesus say in John 14:6,”I am the way, and the truth, and the light, no one gets to the Father except through me.” How do you figure that anyone, saint , angel, or mother can intercede for you.! Timothy 2:5 ” For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” It’s spelled out the same in the Catholic version as it is in the NIV. I have not found one verse in the Bible that that tells us to or condones praying to anyone other than The Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. Not one.
For Racheale: Let me try to explain …
You’re very right to point out that our bibles speak the same truth that Jesus Christ is the “one mediator between God and men” in 1 Tm 2:5. We all believe in this exclusivity but does it nullify the other biblical prescription which urges Christians also to offer up “prayers, intercessions” among other things? We even see Paul directly asking others to pray for him (Rom 15:30–32, Eph 6:18–20, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1), for which he also assured them that he was praying for them (2 Thess 1:11). The point is that while Christ is uniquely the “one” mediator, we can still function as a type of co-mediator in a subordinate way by offering up intercessory prayers for the sake of others (“This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior”). By reading 1 Tim 2 more critically, we see how it only speaks of the reality that Christ is the one mediator between God and man, but it’s another thing to claim that God only wants us to pray directly to Christ alone.
In the Church founded by Christ, there is an established theological vocabulary which conveys precision and exactness for the content of faith for the ages. In the order of the “rule of language,” the Church has carefully distinguished between the honor that is given God and the honor proffered to the saints. As early as AD 787 in the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, it defined “adoration” given to God alone as “latreia” (Gk.) and the veneration to saints and angels as “douleia.” In the latter, we ask the saints and angels for intercessory prayers to God in the name of Christ. So praying can certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God but it is not necessarily equated with it. In fact, the word “pray” comes from the Latin word “precari” which simply means to entreat and supplicate. When KJV translated 1 Kg 2:20 in Old English to say “I pray thee, say me not nay,” it is not presenting Bathsheba as adoring or praying to her son as God.
And there are certainly scriptural verses for the seekers. For instance, St. John sees that “the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).
Surkiko
No one disagrees that we should pray for each other.
It’s that they disagree that we should pray to the saints for intercession. When Hebrews 4:16 as some declare says otherwise.
If I pray for Christ to heal my wound, will he do it? or should I pray to Mary to pray to me to Jesus? (spiritual wound; like vice, sin, etc)
Should I pray to Jesus for spiritual healing, for spiritual growth, and to learn daily to do the will of God? or should I pray to Mary to pray to Jesus?
What stops me from praying to Jesus? Nothing! I believe we should pray to Christ for all we need, as we have one mediator between God and man (Is what 1 Tim 2:5 is saying), we still have many mediators here on earth.
If your friend is in Africa, how will you ask him for council? God has raised people in your house, the people of the earth righteous, wise, and good that we may seek help from them.
Should you need aid, don’t ask the servant of the king for all he can do is give you water, but ask the King who can give you living bread and living water.
Is it because though we can pray to Jesus, prayer to Mary will be heard more? or prayer to Mary will increase the chance of my prayer to christ being answered? Or is praying to Mary only for devotion to the Lord? Why do we pray to Mary because I’m actually don’t know why Catholics do? I once myself was a Catholic but I never understood why we prayed to Mary, but I was told to just do what I need to do.
Please if you know tell me why we pray to Mary so I can better understand.
In Rev. 5:8 who is receiving the bowl of incense?
Is it the saints, the angels, the creatures, the heavenly beasts, the archangels, Mary, or the elders?
Even by this, who then listens to our prayers? is God not present when we pray, when you pray God’s eyes are there and at that time and before the time he as answered your prayer with no, or yes.
The eyes of Mary are not present nor are the eyes of the saints, only when they descend on Christ can their eyes than be present in one place.
We know that our angels descend and ascend on Christ, and when they do descend on him and come to us, they don’t see all things at once! Only the eyes of God are omni-temporal and present and so are the eyes of his son because he and the Lord are one.
The angels of the Lord can see far and all about them, but they don’t see all things that gift is not given to them.
Yes Paul asked the living if they can include him in their prayers. Even if we do not know your situation and that you are a family member or a friend or good friend I will still add you your name in my prayer that you be watched over and kept safe from harm. But Paul is not asking the dead to pray for him to God and to Jesus. So why are we still on this same subject. The revelation is coming the rapture is coming. No body comes to the father but through Jesus Christ himself. It’ll not be Mary to come down on judgement day it’ll Jesus to resurrect the dead. And perhaps Mary has not been resurrected herself, neither has Paul, or John, or so and so. Remember on judgement day Jesus will first raise Abraham, David, and so on. Man I can’t believe this conversation is still going on.
D
I think that Paul is probably in heaven along with all the other apostles, and saints.
Because we know when Christ descended into the place of the dead in Christ he ascended with them as they were no longer captives of that place but now they were free in Christ and captives of the Lord God.
When Christ comes back to resurrect us it doesn’t mean that the dead in Christ are not in heaven, but simply the resurrection of the body.
Just as Christ died, his body though was in the tomb for 3 days does not mean his soul and spirit were also, no man says this.
But his soul was there were Abraham and Lazarus were, so will be the same with the coming of the Christ.
That the dead in Christ who are in the kingdom of God will have their Spirit and Soul reunited with their bodies as Christ was resurrected, so will the Sons of God be resurrected to be in complete communion with Christ.
And for “d”:
… and I also can’t believe that you have been so slow in understanding. Heaven must be a very dead place for you. Sorry, but Catholics believe that our God is a God of the living (Mt 22: 31-32) and that death is not a barrier which separates us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:38-39). I beg to inform you but the saints in heaven (more than anyone on earth) are also much alive and that they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb 12:23), meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious (Jas 5:16). So, by also asserting this novel (heretical) doctrine of Rapture theory, I assume that you believe in the THIRD Coming of our Lord, right? And so I see that you obviously believe that heaven is also very EMPTY now. I’m wondering what Moses and Elijah, if dead and still very dead, were standing and discussing with Christ on the Mt. of Transfiguration? I also wonder where are Elijah and Enoch now since they also apparently never died physically? And don’t forget the very active 24 elders in heaven with the prayers of the saints in Rev 5:8. According to you, they are all supposed to be “asleep” until resurrection day, right?
Let’s have a decent conversation if you still believe in your bible.
?
Surkiko
Amen, your right.
Though when you used the Enoch and Elijah example, it wasn’t a good example because it did not agree with that point that your preaching against. Because Enoch and Elijah when they were resurrected into heaven, it was pretty empty of people, though it was filled with the presence of God and the hosts of God, Elijah and Enoch were a special case being the only kind there.
Because we know they (Enoch and Elijah) lived before Christ and so anyone who died during that time who were in for God, did not ascend into heaven but instead descended into the place where hell was near; the place of Abraham and Lazarus, and this place was filled with water and vegetation. (this place was not hell, but somewhere possibly near hell).
Nevertheless, I don’t disagree with you on this point because we know that when Christ ascended on high from that place were he was (where Abraham and Lazarus were) He took captives with him.
Sorry but i think those here who are catholics are setting up a straw man arguement to practice a belief not found or supported by the scriptures where in the bible does it say the saints in heaven hear or respond to prayers of the living here on earth and why if they are enjoying their eternal glory with jesus and why would we need to ask them if we have direct access to god the father through his son Jesus Christ
The Saints are our brothers and sister in the Lord and are not selfishly enjoying “their eternal glory with Jesus. They care about us and want us to join them.
It is true we can pray directly to God but the fact is praying to the Saints gets results. Therefore, people keep doing it and telling others about it. And, this has always been the M.O. of God. He has, throughout salvation history, chosen to work through His people when He certainly could have just acted directly to accomplish something. ie Moses getting Israelites out of Egypt.
You ask, “where in the Bible does it say the saints in Heaven hear or respond to prayers.” But let me ask you an even more foundational question. Where in the Bible does it say all religious belief and practice MUST be found in the Bible?
Pam Forrester:
You say, “It is true we can pray directly to God but the fact is praying to the Saints gets results.”
God says, “And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;” 2 Corinthians 3:4-5
God says, “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Proverbs 14:12
You say, “Where in the Bible does it say all religious belief and practice MUST be found in the Bible?”
God says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
God says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Why is this god of yours so incapable and insufficient?
Beware: You may be following a different ‘jesus’ than the Jesus Christ of the Bible!
Pam Forrester
Are you implying that Prayer to God brings no result?
This is what you said:
“It is true we can pray directly to God but the fact is praying to the Saints gets results.”
I already said this before but I will say it again…
should we pray to the saints for intercession? When Hebrews 4:16 as some declare says otherwise.
If I pray for Christ to heal my wound, will he do it? or should I pray to Mary to pray to me to Jesus? (spiritual wound; like vice, sin, etc)
Should I pray to Jesus for spiritual healing, for spiritual growth, and to learn daily to do the will of God? or should I pray to Mary to pray to Jesus?
What stops me from praying to Jesus? Nothing! I believe we should pray to Christ for all we need.
Prayer to the saints isn’t more effective. We know that the prayer of the righteous are in did rich, but scripture tells us that God knows how to give good gifts.
If a man prays for rain, and another more righteous man prays for rain both of them living in the exact same area, if he says no to the man because of his reasons he will also reject the more righteous:
If a righteous woman prays for rain for her husbands’ field, and a poor woman also does the same for her husbands, both of these women are neighbors and therefore they both live in the same place, if he says yes to the righteous, will God say no to the poor woman, or will his heart be touched by both their prayer?
Be righteous because we have to be righteous and it pleases the Lord! Be not righteous so that God could answer your prayer! For we know Elijah was righteous, and no matter his prayer it will be answered, Elijah prayed for the windows of the earth to shut up, and they did. Because Elijah was righteous and anointed his prayer was answered. If one was not Elijah and was not anointed and he asked for the same as Elijah it will not happen.
So if I prayed to Elijah for him to pray to the Lord for me so that the heavens would shut up, would it happen? Will the heavens shut up for 3 years and a half as it did for Elijah? And if it doesn’t happen who did God reject? Elijah? because we know Elijah was anointed God would not refuse his prayer.
Don’t pray to Elijah, pray to God because God knows our prayer before it comes across our minds and so his answer is the same through Elijah or through Jesus. As Matthew 6:8 tells us not to be like the pagans (Catholicism) but instead that our father knows what we need before we ask him.
This does not discourage prayer for your neighbor or for others. If I walk down the street and see a poor man, he has no food, and I have no money to give.
But when I get home and pray for him, God will hear, and if the poor man also prays for food, will God not hear and answer? Whose prayer will God hear most, the man at home or the man on the streets? God will hear both prayers together in union they become rich! Indeed both prayers will become rich! BUT tell me this, will God’s answer change if only that one poor man prayed? No! we know God is the same all time because he is not ruled by time for he created time, creation is not above the creator.
God hears all, he hears so that the drop of a soft water droplet when it hits the ground it becomes sounds like an explosion.
God hears so well that the beat of a heart of man sounds like the Loudest of all bass drums, that the whispers of men’s mind sound like loud trumpets that never go off.
Hebrews 4:16 “With Jesus as our high priest, we can feel free to come before God’s throne where there is grace. There we receive mercy and kindness to help us when we need it.”
Listen: God’s prayer does not change between the saints, or yours.
I remember when I was in grade 6, my teacher had an assistant teacher, Mr. Fox. I asked my teacher to go drink water, but she said no, and I went to ask the assistant teacher, and he said yes. But before he would let me go he went and asked the teacher if I could go: what do you think happened?
Did the teacher change her answer because someone of her age and closer to her authority and intelligence change her mind?
OF COURSE NOT: She still said no.
It is likened to the kingdom of God, Ask the father and he will say no, and ask the father’s servant and the servent asks the father and he will still say no because the father knows that which is right and wrong and he says his answer because he knows how to give good gifts.
Rev 5:8 The servants offer the bowl of incense to the Lord:
It is like this; you pray, and the pray is taken up by the servent and given to the Lord to answer. The prayer is not prayed and taken up by the servants of the Lord to be answered by the servants of the Lord.
Prayer made by the righteous is great, and prayer made by the power will still be answered.
Why don’t you lay out the ENTIRE definition of Necromancy?
“The supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future”
Although the most common use is to use it to predict the future doesn’t mean it is the ONLY form of necromancy.
Here is what the Merriam Webster Dictionary said.
Definition of necromancy
1: conjuration (see CONJURE sense 2a) of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
The novel centers on the practice of necromancy and its influence on the world of the living.
2: MAGIC, SORCERY
Townspeople accused her of necromancy.
Synonyms for necromancy
bewitchery, bewitchment, conjuring, devilry (or deviltry), diablerie, enchantment, ensorcellment, magic, mojo, sorcery, thaumaturgy, voodooism, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry
To what “ENTIRE definition” do you refer? And please cite your source. None of the definitions cited for Necromancy would be acceptable for a Christian. Also, none of the definitions depict intercessory prayer to the Saints alive in Heaven.
Also, intercessory prayer is not the only type of prayer used for saints. It is quite common ALL over the world to ask for good health, fortune and the like. They basically are treated as separate deities. On top of that it isn’t in the Bible and the only reason you condone it is because your political, power holder organization. WHO ALL FUCK KIDS. Ok’s it.
Uhmmm! No. We ask the Saints to pray for us to God. He is the one who answers out prayers. In a worldwide Church lack of correct teaching/understanding is bound to happen. But that is NOT what the Church teaches or approves.
The Smoke of Satan is eternally seeking to destroy. But the faithful do not approve of evil clergy. Jesus picked 12 disciples and “one of them was a devil.” Clergy are especially targets of the Devil b/c he can attack multitudes through one man of the cloth.
God is not a monolithic concept. Indeed, Godhead is revealed as a trinity. Christians are also a family and good neighbors. The saints pray with us as our spiritual brothers and sisters.